PT muscle cars in Europe. What's it like there?

[TheJDMan]

I seems like there is a good deal of interest in American muscle cars in Europe. I would like to hear from some of the forum member in Europe tell us about what it is like to own and drive an American PT muscle car on the roads of Europe. Are muscle cars a common sight on the roads or pretty rare to see? What kinds of looks do you get from other drivers? Do the police hassle muscle car drivers more that other cars? Do other sports car drivers look down at muscle cars or no? I'm just wanting to get a sense of what it is like to drive an American muscle car in Europe.

[tazzz25906112]

Cool post I'd be very curious as well.... My wife is driving me nuts to cross the pond for a holiday,,, and I'd likely take a car if I go at all....

[71RS/SS396]

Cool post I'd be very curious as well.... My wife is driving me nuts to cross the pond for a holiday,,, and I'd likely take a car if I go at all....
I know the american hot rods are big in Sweden. Albert if you want to go to Sweden with a car I can probably hook you up with someone you can ship your car to, just shoot me a call.

[Norwaycamaro]

American cars are huge here in Norway also. Since we`re neighbours to Sweden, its a little bit the same here, but the PT approach is not so common here yet, compared to other styles. Seems most people tend to lean against the more old school/ original style look. But of course there is a few well built PT cars too. I am in the prosess of building one also. 69 Camaro with 2009 Bmw E90 dashboard, big brakes etc etc...:-)

[Procharmo]

In the UK the cars are rare. They also tend to lean more to either original restos or drag racing. I can only tell you that when I drive mine the whole street stops in their tracks. People put their hands over their ears, exotic Lambo's and Ferraris bow down to you and the Police sometimes joins in with the crowd begging for a burnout!!! Here's some youtube action from the Chelsea cruise at Chelsea Bridge, central London.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ty9WS7Pjb2A&list=PLCCD429421624C80B&index=44&feature=plpp_video


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUJj55uib54&list=PLCCD429421624C80B&index=41&feature=plpp_video


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WLuELCvIkM&list=PLCCD429421624C80B&index=42&feature=plpp_video


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKU8jhjYr4w&list=PLCCD429421624C80B&index=42&feature=plpp_video

[Martin71RS]

Here in the Netherlands we have loads of muscle cars...okay, it is not the US.... but there are plenty here. There are lots of meetings from April till September with some meetings drawing hundreds US cars. (not all muscle cars) You can see US cars of all sorts here, mostly kept for the hobby so driven with nice weather.
People in general like to see these cars I guess judging from the positive comments I get.

Pro-touring has also taken off here.... I started around 10 years ago after reading magazines and when I found the pro-touring.com forum online back then. Together with some other guys we started our own Dutch Pro-Touring / G-Machine Challenge, a club to get guys (and gals) together with the same interest. I have my own website www.pro-touring.nl where I documented my build and events I attend to with the car. (from there is also a link to the club and the members and their cars)

Downside of a US car here is the gas prices... around $8 to $10 a gallon, that is why a lot run their car on Propane (LPG) here since it is around 2 times cheaper. Only advantage is we do not pay road tax for cars 25 years or older... with the average muscle car it would normally be (amount is measured by the cars weight and fuel) about $100 to $125 a month on gas and about double that on propane.
So thats the reason we are still able to run them allthough it is not cheap.
Also getting parts is costly....parts are usually heavy so shipping is expensive, and then our friendly tax system lets us pay around 25% over the amount+shipping :barf:

We (our club) were invited to a fast car festival on a track were we did a demo and also track time and got a lot of positive comments.

Martin

[neki67]

I started to think seriously about turning a muscle car into something we now know as a Pro-Touring back in '96 when I bought my '67. Been interested in muscle cars (or at least rumbling V8's) since the 70's when I went to High School. I remember I hold on to a Hot Rod article from (I believe) 1978 where Herb Adams transformed a '78 F-body into a Porsche killer. However I didn't have the money/resources to do something like that till about the mid/late nineties. There wasn't a lot available to built American Muscle into a PT car since everything was still focused on Dragracing so I had to do lots of research and make my own parts.

At that time the general public and the sports car drivers really looked down upon the American (muscle) cars. I've seen the opinion change in the last decade, possibly since the guys (please read guys/girls where ever I write guys) that didn't have the money to do something decent with an American car are now also old enough to spent some more and build nicer cars. Obivously besides the guys that now have enough money to do so, there's also a lot of guys that still don't have the money to spend it on American cars or spending it otherwise that still do like those cars. So during the last 5-6 years I get a lot of thumbs up from all kind of car owners but I still like it just that bit more when a BMW, Porsche or other Euro sports car drivers give me a thumbs up! Last summer my GF and I went on vacation with the 67 to Austria and got lots of positive attention. Driving back to the Netherlands on one of the German Autobahns there was even a 7-series BMW with a diplomat's license that pulled up next to us and there was a big thumps up from the rear seat!!

Like Martin mentioned in the previous post we now also have a Dutch PT-'chapter' and join and organize (track)events on a regular basis. These pics were taken during one of the track sessions of the Fast Car Festival at the former F1 track of Zandvoort:
51659

51660

[neki67]

BTW: we met with one of the Austrian PT.com members in Austria by pure coincidence/luck (see: https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?82373-sc-amp-c). He (Pat) proposed to meet a couple of his (US car loving) friends and so a day later we "toured" the Alps with 4 US muscle cars and had dinner at a proper Diner (http://www.gastrosulting.at/wsr/)!!

[SuperB70]

In Finland we got american cars also. Quite lot but we are small nation, only 5.5 mil.

In European union/ in Finland there are strict laws about chancing parts to your car. We cant do "full build", if I chance more than 50% from original car, I'll have a new car in the eyes of the law. Then it has to be as safe as new 2011 model( yee right).

Another thing is that we have yearly inspections and everything is writen down to car registeration papers and check yearly.

And new ones are almost impossible get registerated because law differenses EU/US. We have to chance all lights, windows and even safetybelts. Yours dont all have E-approval, it sucks I know.

Thats why we got mostly originals, all kinds of,(even rare ones ex.1 of 1 Hemi 4 door taxi Belvedere in the world)
A lot has bee shipped from States past 10 years and your economigal state has helped alot with cheap $.
Lots of hot rod (many got true service in world war II), trucks and so on.

I in planing/parts collecting stage in my Bee and I got to be extra smart and use the laws to my favor if I want to get my car past inspection. I cant just say that I have +1000hp twin turbo V10, have to turn hp down and provide dyno paper to back it up and that is record'd to the papers. I can have 25% more than most powerful original model ( that would be 425hp Hemi) or 7 Kilograms for every 1 Kilowatt. So have to check my math skills ;)

[neki67]

In European union/ in Finland there are strict laws about chancing parts to your car. We cant do "full build", if I chance more than 50% from original car, I'll have a new car in the eyes of the law. Then it has to be as safe as new 2011 model( yee right).

In the Netherlands (also part of the EU) we don't have that problem! We can (more or less) change whatever we want and not run into any kind of problem. I know the Germans and Austrians are facing similar problems as the Finnish.




Another thing is that we have yearly inspections and everything is writen down to car registeration papers and check yearly.


We got a yearly inspection here but the inspection is only for the regulations for that particular year! So no sniffler test and lots of other things that didn't exist in the 60's!

[TheJDMan]

This is interesting guys keep it coming! If I understand correctly, some EU countries drive on the left and some on the right. How does that work out when traveling from conutry to country? Rene I see your 67 is set up for RH steer, is that something you had to do after it was imported?

[gmjj13]

Its pretty cool driving an old pt camaro in Germany. They really like the american muscle cars over here. Only problem is that the TUV (german inspection) doesn't allow big changes/mods to cars, or they won't pass TUV. They want the cars to be as close to original over here. No aftermarket suspension, no LS power in older cars...etc. Luckily for me, being an american stationed over here, we fall under a little different rules, and don't have to pass a TUV inspection. I took my car to the local TUV after registering on base. The inspectors were real cool, and were just loving seeing an old muscle car that was done up in PT fashion. But, when I asked them what it would take to register on the economy, they just kinda looked at my car and laughed and said "You can't drive a race car on German roads!". I took it as a compliment.

My car gets looks everywhere over here. Even the guys with the high end Mercedes/Porsche/Lambos etc...seem to like old hot rods. They even have plenty of US car shows over here. Even though the shows are typically for "US cars", which means anything from a classic car to modern cars. They don't really have too many classic car shows.

The Autobahn is also a lot of fun to drive on over here. Especially when you get the unsuspecting mercedes pull up on you on the autobahn. Once while cruising home, an SL600 rolled up on the old camaro while I was passing someone. He was a bit too close to my liking, so I dropped down to 4th and rolled away from him. I seen his headlights come up like he was trying to get on it and catch up, but he just kept getting farther back. I let out and pulled over to the right lane, and he went by looking all upset that he just got walked on by an "old" car. The best part was his girlfriend in the passenger seat just looking over and smiling when they went by. The Autobahn is a great place to open up and just cruise as well. Its a lot of fun.

This next spring I have plans on taking the Camaro to Nurnburgring. Hopefully we can get her there and get some good pics/vids. I've met a lot of members over here. Its really awesome to see that Pro-touring is worldwide. This is an awesome family that I am proud to be a part of.

[tazzz25906112]

That is way cool Jeff,,, I'm considering shipping one of my cars over this summer for a driving vacation.... I've be talking with Roger with the Titus white TA race car today and I guess we'll see what happens.... I'll likely send over either the white WarPath Light TA or the 70 Formula Cochise we just finished....

[neki67]

Rene I see your 67 is set up for RH steer, is that something you had to do after it was imported?

Sorry Steve but my 67 is LH steer. You're probably distracted by my GF riding shotgun.



If I understand correctly, some EU countries drive on the left and some on the right. How does that work out when traveling from country to country?

It's only the UK, the UK Isles, Ireland, Cyprus and Malta when it comes to the EU and driving on the left side of the road. They're all islands so the transition is immediately after you leave the boat or train. Entire continental EU is all driving on the right hand side of the road. Have a look at this map where Blue stands for the countries with driving on the left side of the road;
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[neki67]

That is way cool Jeff,,, I'm considering shipping one of my cars over this summer for a driving vacation....

Jeff, please feel free to contact either Martin71RS or myself (we're both active PT.nl founders/members) in case you would like advice/tips/etc. and perhaps we can meet up, organize something and (partially) join you.

In case there are other PT.com members interested in an organized Euro event, please let us know and we will set something up. We could do a kind of Euro current/former/legendary F1 tracks tour including the Nürburgring (Nordschleife including the new GP-track) and Spa-Francorchamps to name a few . . . .

[TheJDMan]

Sorry Steve but my 67 is LH steer. You're probably distracted by my GF riding shotgun.




It's only the UK, the UK Isles, Ireland, Cyprus and Malta when it comes to the EU and driving on the left side of the road. They're all islands so the transition is immediately after you leave the boat or train. Entire continental EU is all driving on the right hand side of the road. Have a look at this map where Blue stands for the countries with driving on the left side of the road;
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

My Bad! I missed seeing your helmet on the left side when I looked at the pic. Another question, does it rain there a lot?

[neki67]

Another question, does it rain there a lot?

What do you mean by there? Europe? That depends on where you are. It's like asking; "does it rain a lot in the US"? In fact: Europe is bigger than the USA . . . (10.1 million km² vs 9.8 million km²)

In case you mean the Netherlands; it depends how you look at it. One thing is for sure: you're not allowed to hit the streets w.o. wipers nor do you want to. The only dry track session of the day was when the above pic was taken. On average the Netherlands gets about 3-4 inches of rainfall per year. Even during the summer months june, july, august, we get an average of about 3/4".

[Bandit]

This is a good thread! Brings back memories. I can't really speak for the other countries in Europe, but having lived in Italy, and having driven my work-in-progress PT Trans Am on crazy Italian roads for almost 3 years, I think I can contribute.

One thing I think people need to understand right off the bat is that there are vast differences in the cultural and legal systems from one European country to the next, as they pertain to road-licensed vehicles. Taxes, fees, and importation regulations can make it nearly impossible for residents of some countries to drive any "muscle car." Another problem is the availability of American cars, parts and guys who can work on them. A lot of members in Germany and the Netherlands have posted that there are many American muscle cars in those areas...that is certainly not true for some other countries!

That said, in Italy, American vehicles PERIOD are very, very rare. Muscle cars are almost nonexistent. Almost every one you see belongs (or used to belong) to a US Military member. Which is how I got the hookup - I did 3 years in Naples with the Navy, so I was able to bring my car. As such, I was pretty much exempt from all the bs that a typical Italian citizen would have to abide by. People said it was crazy to bring it, it was going to get destroyed, stolen, or whatever. Those risks WERE very real, but I also knew that life is short and this may be my one chance to drive my PT car in legendary places before I die. So I brought it!

Let me say, for all the cost and hassle, it was WAAAY worth it! Everyone hears about the famous German Autobahn, but how often do you hear about the Italian Autostrada? Or the Tangenziale? Both very nice highways where the speed limits are mere suggestions (I never heard of a fellow American getting so much as a speeding ticket over there). Not to mention all the little twisty mountain roads where one can drive as hard as one wants in the twisties with no restrictions.

Also, you will NEVER get a reception at an American car show with your PT car like you will in Italy. I used to have literally hundreds of Italian dudes flocked around my car, taking pictures, firing off a barrage of questions, begging me to start the engine and rev it up over and over again, etc. Like someone mentioned earlier in this thread, I doubt they are so impressed by the fact that it is "PT" so much as they are just amazed to see a muscle car in real life instead of only in the movies. The usual questions I got were "Quanto litre?" (How many liter cc engine) When I said "Siete" (seven) it always illicited wide-eyed responses and sheer disbelief! (Ha ha...I know, that's a small engine for us gearheads) "Quanto cylindre?" "Otto (eight)" Again, amazement! And I always had guys questioning just what it was anyway... "Corvette? Mustang? (pronounced 'MOOstang)" I about gave up trying to explain "Trans Am" to them, though some movie buffs recalled Smokey & the Bandit (yes they LOVE American movies), and those dudes instantly got it. Like I said, almost no one was concerned for the pro-touring aspect, but they sure appreciated seeing a real muscle car in person. There is at least one good reason I can think of for this: The Italians had very strict safety and emissions inspections that they had to follow to the letter in order to keep driving their cars. Hence, there remained very few aftermarket performance parts available for the foreign cars they drove. The "hot-rodding" desire certainly exists with their car enthusiasts, but I really felt sorry for those guys. A lot of them would excitedly show me their "modified" ride, which invariably would be a stock 4-banger Fiat or something with the mods consisting of an aftermarket air filter or a homemade cold air intake, or a blinking shifter knob or something. A lot of guys had ripped out their interiors, floormats and rear seats in order to lighten the car, and that was their only mod. They were pretty ingenious of course in some of this, but they were still very limited in what they were allowed to do. I resisted the temptation to be like "Dude, you have put a lot of work into this thing! And your car still sucks!!!" Even if I was thinking it. I would have broken hearts! Truth is, they are gearheads just like me and I really appreciated the effort they put into the sport, they just had less opportunity. It made me appreciate that I call my home the good old USA where we still have a LOT more freedom to pursue our interests and hobbies, whatever they may be, basically as far as our wallets permit!

Driving on city streets, I felt like a celebrity. People would run out of the shops to point, stare and yell "Americana!" As I drove by. On one such typical occasion, I pulled into a crowded square with 100s of people and since I had a fair stretch of open street in front of me, I slammed on the brakes, stopped, redlined it and proceeded to lay down one of the biggest, smokiest posi burnouts of my life!! It was epic. The crowd went wild. Only problem was, as I rolled around the roundabout I saw at the other side there was a Caraberneri (Italian paramilitary/state police) officer standing next to his cruiser holding his "lollipop" or traffic wand. He just GLARED at me the whole way around the traffic circle with his arms stretched out in a kind of "Dude, really...what the F*#!??!!" pose. I kinda shrugged and grinned sheepishly and then proceeded as quietly as a big-block with dual exhaust can toward my apartment, fully expecting to see flashing lights behind me at any time! But he never followed.

I have never driven so fast at any time in my life as over there. Average left lane speed on the highway was about 90 mph, and even then about every 5 minutes a BMW, Mercedes or Alfa Romeo would blast by in the 120 range. And yes, the occasional Ferrari or Lambo, though they are not nearly as common on the roads as people seem to think, even in Italy. And no, I never raced one, though I think I could have done ok against some of the lower-end supercars. When I did the 5-speed TKO 600 transmission conversion to my car over there, (yes I spent a metric butt-load of $$ to get it shipped there), it was on! I had no idea how fast I was going (since I still had the stock 85 mph speedo in there at first, ha ha) until one day I happened to race a buddy of mine with his Jeep SRT-8 Hemi through traffic on our way to work one morning (I eventually b*tched out and let off the gas). When we arrived he asked "Do you have any idea how fast we were going?" I said, "I dunno, 130-140? " He says, "GPS said 155!" I was like holy ----. Yes, I know it was dumb to do in traffic but don't act like you've never been there! Finally I got my 160 mph electric speedo installed (yes it was calibrated right), and on some lone night runs (also after installing the suspension and z-rated tires, yeeesh!) I was able to bury the needle and then some. God only knows how fast I had it going but physics theory based on my power vs. aerodynamics says probly no faster than 180. Still, it was white-knuckle driving down the very center line of a wide 4-lane highway, and the slightest adjustment of the steering wheel would send me all the way across a lane. Yes, it was dumb. Do I regret it? No!

But I digress and I hope it doesn't sound like I'm bragging either, my car is by no means the best, my tech knowledge and driving skills need much improvement, so please don't flame me off the internet for being an idiot cause I already admitted I was. But I thought you guys might appreciate hearing of my experiences driving my "PT" muscle car in Italy. Of course there is a lot more that I could say about it. Oh yeah, my biggest regret was that I never got it up to Nurburgring, some buddies and I had planned a trip, but then I waited too long and had to leave early unexpectedly, so it never happened. Ah well, maybe someday. If I get another chance, it will definitely be one of the first things I do!!

[neki67]

One thing I think people need to understand right off the bat is that there are vast differences in the cultural and legal systems from one European country to the next, as they pertain to road-licensed vehicles. Taxes, fees, and importation regulations can make it nearly impossible for residents of some countries to drive any "muscle car." Another problem is the availability of American cars, parts and guys who can work on them. A lot of members in Germany and the Netherlands have posted that there are many American muscle cars in those areas...that is certainly not true for some other countries!

Absolutely true! Even though EU regulations (up and above the national regulations and laws) should make it quite easily possible to license and register a muscle car, in reality it isn't. And since there aren't so much around it also makes driving and maintenance, let alone modifying, WAY more expensive than anywhere in the USA!



Let me say, for all the cost and hassle, it was WAAAY worth it! Everyone hears about the famous German Autobahn, but how often do you hear about the Italian Autostrada? Or the Tangenziale? Both very nice highways where the speed limits are mere suggestions (I never heard of a fellow American getting so much as a speeding ticket over there). Not to mention all the little twisty mountain roads where one can drive as hard as one wants in the twisties with no restrictions.

Also absolutely true. Been there on several occassions and the Autostrada's are idd nearly w.o. speed limit. Been to the Dolomites with my bike and it's Walhalla around there. Not just the twisties and the roads but also all the people cheering you on and asking, no BEGGING for you to rev it or do a wheely, it's amazing! Last summer we went to Austria with the Camaro and would have loved to drive a bit on to the Northern part of Italy but we saved that for another holiday!



Also, you will NEVER get a reception at an American car show with your PT car like you will in Italy. I used to have literally hundreds of Italian dudes flocked around my car, taking pictures, firing off a barrage of questions, begging me to start the engine and rev it up over and over again, etc. ~~ On one such typical occasion, I pulled into a crowded square with 100s of people.

One of my (wet) dreams is to pull up the Piazza del Campo, Sienna with the Camaro! Or even better/wetter; me in the Camaro and my GF in the 68 Corvette Convertible we're building up!

51977



Oh yeah, my biggest regret was that I never got it up to Nurburgring, some buddies and I had planned a trip, but then I waited too long and had to leave early unexpectedly, so it never happened. Ah well, maybe someday. If I get another chance, it will definitely be one of the first things I do!!

Guess where this one was taken:
51978

[Bandit]

Thank you, my friend...and aaaahhh I hate you!!! Yes, that is the 'ring'...

[TheJDMan]

Bandit,
I'm not too far from you in Fredericksburg, VA. Let me know if you get this direction. My project is still a year or so from being driveable but it looks good.

These are the kinds of day to day stories I love to hear from you guys. It's always interesting to hear how American muscle cars are regarded in other parts of the world.

[gmjj13]

Jeff, please feel free to contact either Martin71RS or myself (we're both active PT.nl founders/members) in case you would like advice/tips/etc. and perhaps we can meet up, organize something and (partially) join you.

In case there are other PT.com members interested in an organized Euro event, please let us know and we will set something up. We could do a kind of Euro current/former/legendary F1 tracks tour including the Nürburgring (Nordschleife including the new GP-track) and Spa-Francorchamps to name a few . . . .

That sounds like a good idea. I know there are a few pt.com members over here that would probably be interested in some sort of euro meet. I'm hoping to get my camaro to the ring this spring, we'll have to see how it goes. let me know if you guys would like to maybe get something together. talk to you later...

[neki67]

Jeff,

Let me know once you pick a date, I'll post it on the Dutch PT forum and will see if my schedule allows to join you on the ring.

The Euro event is obviously not just for European PT.com members. I can also work something out for the folk living on the other side of the ocean . . . .

[ak72]

He everybody,
I am from belgium. Here you are bound by a lot of rules.
For instance when you have a car with drumbrakes front and back, by law you can not rebuild to calipers because thats not original.
We cannot shave doors or a trunk.
We cannot built a fenderless hotrod
Here in belgium when you fit an airride system they give you a really hard time when you wanne drive the car as daily driver.

A couple of years ago i wanted to import a 94 ranger stepside with the 4.0 V6. Got it in the US, already slammed, 17" wheels, upgraded suspions, rollpan at the back, exhaustsystem. Wanted to build a little PT truck.After trying for a year i sold the ranger. For getting it on the road in belgium they expected me to: get the originally suspension and exhaustsystem back, fit origanel tires and a bumper.
Down here the goverment is abit crazy(goes for european and american cars)when it comes to tuning cars
.
Although there are a lot of meetings they are a lot different then the meetings you guys got. Everything here is static, apart from a few meetings, people come and park their car and thats it. I know in holland people tried to get a real cruise working. They tried 3 or4 times in a year but the stopped trying because it didnt work.

But with a little bending of the law, driving youre car on a dutch licenseplate( because they are not as strict as belgium), and a friendly face you can get away with some things.
About the police: never had real troubles with them, our cars are still that rare on the roads in europe that even the police like looking at them. Getting stopped by the police because they wanne take a look happens more then getting stopped because youre in trouble.

But driving us cars in europe continues to be great. Heads keep turning, thumbs go up. People ooow and aaaaw a lot. Especially when you drive your car as a daily driver. I still love it and could not live without my boattail.