Oil cooler recommendations

[Blown353]

OK guys, looking for some advice.

I'm yanking my engine in a couple weeks to swap out the cast core cam for a billet core cam (not going to risk a failure-- a few friends have experienced wiped lobes with their cast core rollers.) Since I can never just do the job I need to and always end up upgrading other things while I'm doing the job I started out to do, I'm thinking while the engine is out would be a dandy time to plumb an oil cooler and an accusump so I can actually open track the car without fear of cooking the oil. I can get the oil up to the 255-260 range rather quickly just dinking around on my favorite twisty backroads, so I know I'd be towing the car home with a dead engine if I took it to a real track.

Anyways, I'm looking for cooler and thermostat recommendations since I haven't really messed with retrofitting either and would like to err on the side of experience in this area. I was thinking of mounting a remote filter and 3 qt Accusump (with solenoid and also a manual valve should the solenoid fail) out of sight and easily accessed under one of the front inner fenders. However, I'm undecided on what to do for the actual cooler. I like the idea of an oil/water cooler, so that it also heats the oil quicker after a cold start. However, a Fluidyne oil/water unit isn't exactly cheap. As far as oil/air coolers, I happen to have a couple of the big "stacked plate" coolers sitting around (see HERE (http://www.bmracing.com/index.php?id=products&sid=4&cat=20&subcat=28&pid=282) , I have two of the largest coolers sitting on a shelf) and I'm thinking one would work great for an oil cooler, but wouldn't offer the "fast warmup" benefit of the oil/water unit. Think the unit I have on hand would be adequate, or should I be looking elsewhere? (FYI, I know I could easily cook the power steering system tracking the car, which is why I have my power steering return line running through the cooler in the radiator.)

I'm mostly looking for recommendations on what style cooler to go with (oil/air or oil/water) and who makes a good thermostat if I choose to go with the air/oil cooler. Any recommendations for a remote filter adapter and mount would also be appreciated.

Also, for anyone who has ever used the solenoid-style accusumps on the street, will they live with the constant cycling on and off in a street application (i.e. every time I slow down or come to a stop, the oil pressure will drop enough to open the solenoid) -- is this going to pose a problem?

Thanks.

Troy

[andrewb70]

Earl's makes some really nice coolers.

http://www.holley.com/types.asp?type=244

They are very efficient, so the cooler can be pretty small.

Andrew

[Blown353]

Andrew, are you running an oil cooler on your car? I can't tell in the pics, and didn't have the question at the time we met over at Charley's. I also neglected to ask later on if you had fun in that rental C5 'vert. LOL.

I'm thinking two of the Earl's coolers might look neat nestled in my factory front bumper cutouts. I know I'd only need one, but it would be worth the extra couple bucks for symmetry in this case.

[chicane67]

Setrab makes the one cooler that everyone has tried to copy for eons. That would be my first choice.....

As for a thermostat, CV products makes one of the best and well known t-stats ever made..... and most of the DYNO guys use it as well. I have added this Adobe link of the specific CV Products (http://www.cvproducts.com/cv/technical/sheets/installation/CV1031installation.pdf) oil thermostat .

And if you are in the market for a radiator, oil cooler and thermostat.... CarlC has a great install article on his website (http://www.geocities.com/casanoc/) . I have used this set up a few times on various chassis and it works well.

I have also used the 'Accu-sump' on street cars as well..... and it does work rather well on a true street chassis, even with the electric valve. All its gonna do is open the valve when the key is hot and from that point the nitrogen (or other compressed dry gas for pre-charge) is just going to cycle as the pressure changes. But, if you have that much of a pressure drop, I would opt for a real oil pump and relieve you of most of your pressure related problems. CarlC also has addressed this on his web site.... and it is also something that I have used with the aforementioned radiator/oil cooler... but Carl took it to the next level with some updated parts.

[Blown353]

chicane, the pressure problem isn't my oil pump. I was just thinking that with the Canton "road race" pressure triggered solenoid, it would open the accusump every time I let the engine drop back to idle, and I was wondering if there were any longevity issues cycling the thing frequently (my car is mostly a street car, after all.)

The reason I'm looking into an accusump is that because of header clerance issues I can't fit a kickout-style road race oil pan; heck, I can't fit any kickout pan! The passenger side header has a tube that runs right next to the pan under the starter. I'm running a Milodon "claimer" pan right now, which is the best baffling I could find in a stock-profile pan. This pan is exactly what CarlC used to run and had starvation issues with; so I know I'll have a problem with oil control. I just haven't experienced it yet on the street; actually, more likely I just haven't noticed it happening-- most likely under sustained heavy braking, in which case I'm not paying attention to my oil pressure gauge but rather the road.

I'd love to change headers and run a proper road race oil pan, but I don't know of many 1.75" primary headers for a small block A-body application. There are a lot of 1.625" primary offerings which would probably give me the clearance to run a good oil pan, but the small primaries would be a restriction for my application.

Thanks for the pointer to the CV products thermostat. I was actually going to run one of their remote oil filter mounts, I never noticed their thermostat. I've used some of their other products in the past, and I've always been impressed with the quality of them.

I'll check Carl's website more once it's back up... it's offline at the moment for too much data transfer.

Troy

[chicane67]

As for the accusump and pressure switch activation situation, unless your engine idles below the pressure switch rating, it wont open. If your idle pressure is that low.... then you have either a pump, volume or bearing clearence related issue. OR.... you are pulling some serious G. I have stored all available oil in the timing cover under braking...... I feel you on this problem. Its either that or you have 90* fittings in the oil system (which is a big no-no) or it could even be a line size to volume issue. But non-the-less, I have run the electric valve on on street cars without any problems what so ever.

On another note.... there are plenty of small and affordable things to do to a stock pan or one that has a stock shape, to help oil control issues. Things even a local welder could do in a matter of hours without getting to extravagent.... like the addition of a shelf for the forward part of the sump to control the oil during braking and even a simple trap for the oil pick up.

Here are a few links to some good, affordable pans that fit the "stock pan" dimentions:

Champ Pans (http://www.champpans.com/photos/CP40,55.pdf)
Second page (http://www.champpans.com/photos/CP80,60.pdf)

Canton Racing Products (http://www.cantonracingproducts.com/pans/road_race/sbc_street.html)
Cantons 'EPC' Valving for Accusumps (http://www.accusump.com/acc_products/acc_valves.html) Not to mention it has great tech articles for its implimentation (left side of page.)

As for headers, see what you think about these: Stahl Headers (http://www.stahlheaders.com/Frame%20New%20Drag.htm) These will fit even the toughest fitment applications for A-bodies. These headers will allow you to run the affordable Champ Pans "CP60LT" (second Champ page) or a Canton "15-120" with the 1.75" primary tube and have it still fit with an inch to spare on both sides.

........12.5" between header tubes and a 10.5" pan width with slosh tray, trap baffles and a full windage tray to boot.

[yody]

I have Earls coolers on the front of my car, they are identical to Setrabs, are contructed well, and are pretty cheap. https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://www.imageshack.us)
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://www.imageshack.us)

For a thermostat I used a Mocal Thermostatic sandwich adapter. it opens at 180, obviously this isn't an ideal opening temp but i think it is high enough as the cooler probably isn't efficient enough to keep it that cool, especially when "on it". Plus it was under $100, the CV products inline thermo is like $250!! and you still need a sandwich adapter or oil relocation, plus it uses like 2 extra fittings, 10AN fittings are at least $20 each. I have't had my car out yet but i am pretty happy with the system. I used a milodon BBC RR pan, i had to dent the hell out of it to clear one of my 2" headers.

[Blown353]

Thanks for the info guys, now I have more and more things to think about.

The in-radiator oil cooler is an option I considered in the past but didn't remember when I posted this. Thanks for bringing it back to my attention. I may go this route-- it eliminates the need for the thermostat and saves me space in front of the radiator, which is already crowded with my A/C condensor and will be even more crowded once I get an air/air intercooler up there. The nose of a Chevelle is a LOT tighter than an F-body and limits my options significantly. Stashing the oil cooler in the radiator is a very clean solution that not only saves space but eliminates additional components, since the coolant will do the oil temperature regulation duties. I'm also considering a complete rework of the radiator support and angle mounting the radiator/condensor/intercooler and having the air exit through ductwork and out an extractor vent(s) in the hood. Angle mounting the components will allow me to package a thicker intercooler and radiator than I could normally, and should also help cut down on high speed front end lift with the air exiting out of the hood.

As far as the oil pan / header situation, I think I will wait until I have the engine out on the stand and bolt the headers back up and take more measurements. I have plenty of header clearance on the driver's side, but in one area on the passenger side I have issues with one tube that loops under the starter. The Stahl headers have a similar tube on the passenger side, but the loop under the starter doesn't appear to be as "inward" as my current Hookers. I'm thinking I may be able to fit a kickout pan around my current headers with some hammering or welding/mods to the pan to clear the one tube that causes the problem. I'd prefer not to buy new headers, as I just had these re-coated last year and other than the oil pan issue on the passenger side they fit nice and have served me well for almost 9 years now.

I did drive the car last night and had someone watch the oil pressure gauge-- under a sustained max effort stop from 110mph down to 20mph the oil pressure did start to drop at 35 mph. So I do have a starvation problem with the current pan. It does have a shelf in front of the pickup area to contain oil under heavy braking, but it doesn't appear to hold enough oil there for a sustained hard stop.

Troy

[chicane67]

......it eliminates the need for the thermostat

Not necessarily so. I hope Carl will jump in here and throw in his nickel on this exact subject. Driving around town, or under light duty, the oil will actually get too cold. So the requirement for a thermostat isnt out of the picture just yet. Nice thing about the CV unit, is its size and that they provide, what I think is a perfect opening point, a 215*F thermostat. Running the oil under that temperature is too cool....

[Blown353]

Not necessarily so. I hope Carl will jump in here and throw in his nickel on this exact subject. Driving around town, or under light duty, the oil will actually get too cold. So the requirement for a thermostat isnt out of the picture just yet. Nice thing about the CV unit, is its size and that they provide, what I think is a perfect opening point, a 215*F thermostat. Running the oil under that temperature is too cool....

Good point. What I was thinking is probably true for OEM cars running a 195-205 thermostat. Wouldn't be the case with my 180 T-stat, the oil would run too cold normally to boil off moisture. That's bad.

[chicane67]

I myself have learned, and with the input of some oldschool engine builders, that the engine oil temp should be kept about 40*F hotter than engine coolant temperatures. So, with a 180*F H20 stat the 215*F is perfect for that. It makes the 5* demand for a true opening point on the oil stat....

With the C&R dual pass, 13 plate heat exchanger / radiator.... the driving temperature is right around 145 to 155*F, without a stat. This is pretty much what Carl runs into when he is just schmoozin around town, lookin for hairpins.... its definately too cold.

(Good point about the moisture boil off for those whom just jumped in to read this thread.)

[yody]

yes, but what cooler is efficient enough to keep the oil as cool as the opening point, how many engines with 160 degree thermostats int eh cooling system actually run at that? Your oil will probably be at least 15 degrees hotter at elevated rpms/abuse/use so you will be at 230 which is getting up there. I think a 180 will work fine or maybe i am arguing against myself since that is what i bought.......:) also if carl is at 155 on the street wouldn't 190-200 be a huge improvement?

[MrQuick]

That depends on the size of the cooler you run. If that big honkin cooler on the left is for oil, you might have problems. A radiator heat exchanger could be enough.

[yody]

yes, thats my oil cooler but that is actually the recommend "minumum" size

[chicane67]

yes, but what cooler is efficient enough to keep the oil as cool as the opening point, how many engines with 160 degree thermostats int eh cooling system actually run at that? Your oil will probably be at least 15 degrees hotter at elevated rpms/abuse/use so you will be at 230 which is getting up there. I think a 180 will work fine or maybe i am arguing against myself since that is what i bought.......:) also if carl is at 155 on the street wouldn't 190-200 be a huge improvement?

Three words:

Spell check homo. :slap:

The cooler in the C&R radiator is enough to keep the oil temperature within 20 degress of the engine coolant temperature. Engine coolant is a whole different animal, much more than oil in the current discussion.

230*F oil temp is nothing to worry about. Even with a good 'on the shelf' synthetic, you really dont need to worry about saturation temperatures until around 250-260*F. The ideal would be a 180*F coolant temperature and an oil temperature of about 220*F.

The oil should be kept at +215*F, not only for the additives do their work but at that temperature it will also burn off moisture.

Would Carl be much happier with a running temperature of +215*F..... well, yes. He has a CV products oil thermostat in the works.... I just dont know if he has gotten around to actually doing it before his next track event.

[CarlC]

.....but Carl took it to the next level with some updated parts.

Yeah, and thanks for making spend way too much time and money, you !%^&!!$. :icon_razz

I'm holding off on the thermostat until the latest '68 RS electic headlight motor retrofit kit is perfected. The car has a space issue on the LH side with the RS vacuum tank. Once gone, the thermostat will be top on the list.

Let's face it, most of our time is spent driving our cars on the street where a cooler is not likely needed. In this light, and the fact that engine wear is minimized when proper engine oil temperatures are maintained, thermostats should be seriously considered when choosing system components. Due to header fitment a sandwich style adapter would not work on my car. If I had to do it all over again I would get either Stahl or Doug's headers that actually fit correctly, would allow the use of a sandwich adapter, and allow for easy steering box removal (Doug's.)

One of the problems for a street driven car and the CR radiator is that the oil heat exchanger is located after the first pass. Without an oil thermostat the oil will have a hard time getting hot on a street car. My car runs a 180* water thermostat and during freeway cruise the oil temps usually tickle 150*. On really warm days it will get a bit warmer, but still not near 220*.

If you already have a good radiator then you may be able to have a local shop modify the input tank for a cooler. If so, confirm that the fittings chosen will work for your lines.

This exercise in dealing with oiling issues demonstrates how an engine and its accessories needs to be viewed as a system. Radiators, headers, pans, lines, fittings, adapters, steering boxes, PS, coolers, thermostats, etc. all come into play and will not work with each other without a lot of forethought and painful experience.

[Blown353]

This exercise in dealing with oiling issues demonstrates how an engine and its accessories needs to be viewed as a system. Radiators, headers, pans, lines, fittings, adapters, steering boxes, PS, coolers, thermostats, etc. all come into play and will not work with each other without a lot of forethought and painful experience.

Exactly, Carl. I prefer to draw from others "painful experience" and get it right the first time, as the painful experiences can be costly-- I've had a few of those over the years. :doh:

This will be a staged upgrade for me; first up while the engine is out (again) will be modifying a roadrace pan on the problematic passenger side to clear my headers. Then I need to mod my factory radiator support and design an intercooler and radiator (with oil heat exchanger) that I can effectively package and fab/install them.

After all that, then I can confidently track the car and locate the other weaknesses I haven't found yet. LOL.

Troy