Spec Miata? Why would you do that?

[claytonisbob]

Let me start by saying I've been working on American cars since before I could drive (legally). I built my Chevelle and I drive it like I stole it. Most fun car on the street I have ever owened (or built).

But the more I thought about it, I really want to road race. I live in Dallas where most everyone is into drag racing, but going fast in a straight line is only half as fun as going fast on a whiny road. I will probably take my car out to Eagle Canyon for an open track day next year, but the idea of totaling my car would always keep me from really pushing it (which I think is why autocross appeals to alot of us... less risk). I started weighing my options and it seems like THE decision to make for a guy in his mid 20's (ie, I can pay my bills but I don't have money to throw down on a Porsche or new 'Vette) is Spec Miata.

Now, I am not a fan of Miata's... on the street. But seeing these things at a NASA SM race was pretty awesome. They are quicker than the Spec 944's, and the class is MUCH bigger than any other class by far. Huge field, cheap, equal cars, crazy competition = right on the money. The cars are cheap, and it truly is a class that you can wreck a car and walk away without having to sell the house. You can get into a car for 10k or less (depending on the level of prep you want to put into it... the very top end cars are 30k+). I got a car on craigslist for $400. With what I have budgeted for it I'm looking at about $9k to build it (myself) before data, racing suit ect.

So I'm wondering if any of you guys are SM racers? My thinking is it has to appeal to some of the PT crowd. Most of my friends think I'm nuts.

[vanzuuk1]

Do it.

[Zachalanche]

sounds awesome, but I fear that you will find it to be so competitive that it will become much more expensive than you anticipate.you should be able to find a decent already built car for under 10k then you can focus more on driving and less on building, but I'm curious what it really costs to race for a season. certainly cheaper than racing a lot of other vehicles, but still expensive. I don't really know enough to make any recommendations, but good luck.

[1969CamaroRS]

Think LS motor AKA Banshee from Gearz:
http://staceydavid.com/projects/banshee
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

I dunno if it would be allowed within the normal class rules, but seems like a great project, like a more modern A/C Cobra.

[Van B]

A low horsepower momentum car will teach you to be a better driver. Cost is not that bad. The big thing is tow vehicle and trailer. I ran this season on two sets of tires (could have used three) and otherwise just put gas in it and changed the fluids regularly. With entry fees and everything I would guess I spent under $5000 to race this season and I will have run 7 or 8 races when tomorrow is over. If you decide you need a pro motor then you will start spending more money fast.

[sik68]

I have toyed with the idea of jumping into SM, for all the reasons you listed. In fact, with where I am now in life, SM would be perfect for me. But in the long term, I have a feeling I'd grow restless in a momentum-based car.

I like v8s/torque/horsepower way too much. My pro-touring 68 Camaro is a transitional car for me...I will eventually have a race car for a competitive series, but it will more than likely be like an American Iron or Factory 5 spec series.

[NJSPEEDER]

Spec Miata is a great series. If you want to save yourself some cash and time getting everything done and sorted this is the time to buy one done. At any given time on your local SCCA and NASA forums, eBay, and even on Craigs List you can find cars taht are already caged, motors blueprinted, all legal stuff, and usually a few extra sets of wheels and tires to kill while you are learning.

If you just want to test the waters and you have a comp license you can even do rent a racer for a weekend.

Big thing I have seen at various events is that the guys are usually really cool to newbs. They want you to be fast and smooth and understand the car because they know that makes it more fun and more competitive for everybody.

I am planning to get a license next summer and I am looking at SM to be my first real wheel to wheel experience.

Good luck with it!!!

[Josue]

I'm just getting into the Mazda scene myself. I bought a Protege5 hatchback/wagon back in April, and after hanging around the Mazda guys in my area, I can definitely feel the comradery! I got to track my car at the beginning of the month and plan to do it more next season. They've also gotten me into the Rolex Grand Am Series, and the Mazda Car Corrals usually sell the most tickets. lol

I don't know much about spec miatas, just that it's pretty much bumper cars out there. haha There may be some good info for you on www.mazdas247.com, as well as miata based sites. (can't think of them off the top of my head)

[claytonisbob]

Its definitely a momentum car. But you know what, I really do want to learn HOW to drive a car. I don't want to buy a pre-built car for three reasons: 1. I'm 6'6" and finding a car that has a cage to accommodate my height would be tough. Actually, it's going to be tough anyway, but I'm certain I can make it work. 2. I'm the kind of guy that feels like he has to build his own car so I understand everything 100% (plus when something goes wrong, I have nobody to blame but myself). Same goes for setup, hopefully I can find someone locally that will loan me some scales so I can cross weight the car. 3. Cars that go for what I'm budgeting are already all beat to hell, or don't really have anything special about them in their prep. It's a well known fact that buying a used car is cheaper, but really the cars that go for less than 10k would probably need a couple grand just to get me into them (outside of the cage not fitting me in most cases) and to ensure all the wear items are checked and replaced. Oh, and I already started building my car :) My freshly rebuilt motor is on an engine stand at the moment. I enjoy doing the work and my time is worthless since I'm single so I don't take that into account.

I can only hope to get good enough to feel the need to be competitive. Regionally I don't think "pro" motors mean much against a crate motor (or a decent rebuild), or a good rebuild in the hands of a good driver. Nationally thats probably not as true. These engines are pretty damn simple (no more so than a LS) and most of the power is in the head which I think the top guys go through a bunch of heads on the flow bench to see which ones flow the best. We'll see. Baby steps... baby steps.

Long term I figured if I got good at driving and felt the need to go faster, I may just drop a decent LS motor in it and cut up the fenders (add flares) and put some 9" wheels/tires on it. For a track car I can't see how anything could be cheaper/faster than a LS1 Miata with a properly set up suspension and a set of sticky slicks. I know most of us (including me) have invested a lot of money in our muscle cars to make them go fast. Its a combination of speed and style. The Miata would be more speed than style.

Funny thing is I worry about the tow rig and trailer more than anything. I'm keeping an eye out for a half ton truck. I think that should suffice since the car weighs 2000lbs, 3k with a trailer. Small car trailers are pretty cheap.

[CurtiSS 69]

Its definitely a momentum car. But you know what, I really do want to learn HOW to drive a car. I don't want to buy a pre-built car for three reasons: 1. I'm 6'6" and finding a car that has a cage to accommodate my height would be tough. Actually, it's going to be tough anyway, but I'm certain I can make it work. 2. I'm the kind of guy that feels like he has to build his own car so I understand everything 100% (plus when something goes wrong, I have nobody to blame but myself). Same goes for setup, hopefully I can find someone locally that will loan me some scales so I can cross weight the car. 3. Cars that go for what I'm budgeting are already all beat to hell, or don't really have anything special about them in their prep. It's a well known fact that buying a used car is cheaper, but really the cars that go for less than 10k would probably need a couple grand just to get me into them (outside of the cage not fitting me in most cases) and to ensure all the wear items are checked and replaced. Oh, and I already started building my car :) My freshly rebuilt motor is on an engine stand at the moment. I enjoy doing the work and my time is worthless since I'm single so I don't take that into account.

I can only hope to get good enough to feel the need to be competitive. Regionally I don't think "pro" motors mean much against a crate motor (or a decent rebuild), or a good rebuild in the hands of a good driver. Nationally thats probably not as true. These engines are pretty damn simple (no more so than a LS) and most of the power is in the head which I think the top guys go through a bunch of heads on the flow bench to see which ones flow the best. We'll see. Baby steps... baby steps.

Long term I figured if I got good at driving and felt the need to go faster, I may just drop a decent LS motor in it and cut up the fenders (add flares) and put some 9" wheels/tires on it. For a track car I can't see how anything could be cheaper/faster than a LS1 Miata with a properly set up suspension and a set of sticky slicks. I know most of us (including me) have invested a lot of money in our muscle cars to make them go fast. Its a combination of speed and style. The Miata would be more speed than style.

Funny thing is I worry about the tow rig and trailer more than anything. I'm keeping an eye out for a half ton truck. I think that should suffice since the car weighs 2000lbs, 3k with a trailer. Small car trailers are pretty cheap.

Also look into Spec E30. They have more power, and the car would fit you better. It is a nicer balance between momentum and power than the Miata. At least in NorCal this is the class the young guns are using to prove themselves, so the competition is formidable. I summize that is what you are looking for. It's got a similar feel to the 600 Supersport class in motorcycle racing.

Another option is karts. They are faster than you think, and the the trailer issue becomes simple. They run on the big track as well.

Regards

CurtiSS 69

[NJSPEEDER]

If you want cheap scales look on ebay and the local Craigslist for used grain scales. We use them for the dirt car and they work perfect. I doubt you will see any for sale in Dallas but if you check away from the city where there is a lot of farming you will see them around.

-Tim

[claytonisbob]

Also look into Spec E30. They have more power, and the car would fit you better. It is a nicer balance between momentum and power than the Miata. At least in NorCal this is the class the young guns are using to prove themselves, so the competition is formidable. I summize that is what you are looking for. It's got a similar feel to the 600 Supersport class in motorcycle racing.

Another option is karts. They are faster than you think, and the the trailer issue becomes simple. They run on the big track as well.

Regards

CurtiSS 69

I thought about NASA SE, but I don't think that's a class that is very active in Texas. CMC and CMC2 (Camaro/Mustang Challenge) would seem to be my next choice for a popular racing series w/ higher powered cars. Would be more expensive though.

Oh and Tim, I will keep an eye out for grain scales. I thought about building some scales from some stuff I've seen online but that may be a better way to go.

[79-TA]

I was going to point out that it's always cheaper to buy a race car that's already been built than to build one from scratch, but you've already made your mind up about that with good reasons.

I say go for it. Build the car, run HPDE's and time trials for a year while your sort the car out, get certified, and then finally, join the class.

Soo, any pictures of the SM project yet?

[claytonisbob]

That was my intent. Try to hit as many track days as I can to get comfortable with the tiny car. I'll try to post some pictures of the project tonight.

[Vicinity]

944's are pretty easy to drive. A Miata might be quicker off the line, but a turbo's 944 is really quick once the turbo is moving. It's VERY nimble. I daily drive one, it's a nice little car, and they're extremely cheap.

Replacement parts aren't though.

[Jim Nilsen]

I had a chance to ride in a Miata with a supercharged Ford V8 in it to check the tune on the ecu and it was very hard to beat the acceleration being it was traction limited to the tire size. It had some work done to make the rear end happier and it needed to be dialed in a bit better but it was a fun car to ride in.

Remember that once you invest in the time to the Miata you will miss out on the time to go to the events put on by the sponsors here. Go where you are the happiest but you are here and not at the miata sites, so it seems you really like this more?

It's all about the fun!

[claytonisbob]

Don't get me wrong, I've thought about getting a 944 as my daily driver several times as deals on craigslist crop up. Seems like a great car. But the NASA Spec 944 was what I was considering... and they don't use turbos :( And the last race I went to there were 3 of them trailing behind the pack of SM cars.

Jim, I will always spend my time on here (Miata forums are pretty lame) and will always be trying to improve my Chevelle (or whatever new muscle car I get next). For me the Miata is going to be less about the car and more about the driving. I think inevitably it will lead me to be a better driver, which will make me understand how to improve my game with a more powerful car like my Chevelle without just relying on power to make up for my mistakes.

[Damn True]

I've never been in an actual race in a SM but I have done a couple of track days in a friends SM car with a bunch of others doing test/tune. Being on track in a tight pack of very equally matched cars such as that is an absolute HOOT. Don't be discouraged by the power delta you won't miss it as the challenge of maintaining momentum is fantastic and a well driven SM will give most cars with 2x or more power the fits.

I'd suggest you go to some races, and closely observe how close the racing is, particularly between the SM cars and cars with more power. You'll see that the grip and handling of the SM often outweighs the HP advantage other cars might have.

As mentioned above, spec E30 is pretty fantastic as well. I fit better in them.

[claytonisbob]

Nothing to get excited about, but a thread is nothing without pictures.

Freshly rebuilt engine.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/11/picturephpalbumid22873pictureid78960-1.jpg

Really wish I could put a Ls3 in here...
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/11/picturephpalbumid22873pictureid78961-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/11/picturephpalbumid22873pictureid78962-1.jpg


Looks fun to me, idk lol...
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/11/specmiataracing-1.jpg

[Morgan]

I'm actually in the same situation as you. I track my 2010 and have for a few years now even cometing in RTTS this past April at New Jersey Motorsports Park. While I love driving the 2010 on the track it isn't helping really learn how to drive fast. Lately I've been test driving friends cars and club owned cars at the track. A Porsche 911 factory Cup, a Lotus Exige Cup, a Mazda 3 racecar, a Spec Boxster and a Spec Miata. The Porsche Cup was crazy fast but honestly won't improve my driving skill as it is too much car for my driving ability to push the limits. The other cars were all great to drive but honestly the SM was the most fun, I can push and push it without getting into trouble and even if I did get in trouble what's it going to cost me? $2k max?

Go with the SM and work you way into a Spec Boxster. You will learn the line better which will translate into tenths down the road.

[SicMonte]

I raced a 1983 RX7 for two years in the spec-7 class. No joke...I bought a race ready car, race suit, gloves, shoes, and tie down straps for $2500. I got it all from the same guy who just happened to be my same sixe!! I got my SCCA (WDCR) license and ran the car for two years with basic maintenance. It is by far the best bang for the buck when starting off racing.

[sik68]

You guys are talking me back into SM! I need to stop reading this thread now.

[Vicinity]

You guys are talking me back into SM! I need to stop reading this thread now.

TBH, I'm kinda interested in picking up an E30 and and turning it into a little Spec car, since my 944 doesn't qualify.:eek:

[mellowyellowCJ7]

Looks fun to me, idk lol...
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/11/specmiataracing-1.jpg

Hey that's an old picture! Our car might be in that one! Ours looked just like 67 with the same wheels, but we had sort of a diver-down stripe across the whole car. We were probably back in the pack somewhere. That might be me next to the red and yellow car in the back. I remember spending a lot of time door to door with that guy. It was great fun! The car with the funny stripes is Johnny O' . :) ooooh memory lane!
My brother and I built and raced a SM about 9-10 years ago.
SCCA driver school was fantastic at Thunder Hill. I got hours of seat time and I got to feel like I was fast! I even qualified on the pole in our group! The first race at Sears Point (Infineon) was a reality check! Welcome to the back of the pack! Ahahahaha Have a great time!!
Tall guy in a SM:
Talk to the SM guys and read the rule book. Back when we built the car you could cut the floor at the transmission tunnel to move the seat more to the center. That will buy you more head room. I'm a lot taller than my brother and I had to lean my head to the right with the helmet on the bar. Not ideal at all!
I think you’ll find that an aluminum seat bolted to the floor with a very thin pad will also buy a couple inches.

[Damn True]

You are also allowed a bubble in the roof if you are REALLY tall.

[Jim Nilsen]

Don't get me wrong, I've thought about getting a 944 as my daily driver several times as deals on craigslist crop up. Seems like a great car. But the NASA Spec 944 was what I was considering... and they don't use turbos :( And the last race I went to there were 3 of them trailing behind the pack of SM cars.

Jim, I will always spend my time on here (Miata forums are pretty lame) and will always be trying to improve my Chevelle (or whatever new muscle car I get next). For me the Miata is going to be less about the car and more about the driving. I think inevitably it will lead me to be a better driver, which will make me understand how to improve my game with a more powerful car like my Chevelle without just relying on power to make up for my mistakes.

I know what you mean, I have a Vibe that helps me learn to be a smoother driver to be faster because of the lack of hard acceleration. I do have to say that I like learning to go faster in the Cormaro a lot more because it is so much faster. Now that V8 miata was a different story, it was faster but needed to handle better. You can only have so much fun in a year and we have to be more interesting LOL.

I wish I could own more than one car , so go for it and learn.

[claytonisbob]

Unfortunately, I cannot modify the floor aside from hammering on the tunnel a little to clear the width of the seat. Well see what I can get away with. If I could cut the floor or cut the top and add a roof scoop or something I would, lol. I'm pretty certain I can get into the car, I already got a custom sized UltraShield aluminum seat. It's a full halo seat, seems pretty damn safe and most of the guys down here run them (they are based out of Tyler, TX... I drove down there for a visit and to get fitted). Pretty much not running any padding in the bottom of it, just the cover. I fit, but it's fitting the main hoop beind my head that worries me. I'm going to order a weld in kit "miata-cage" and weld it in myself. It sounds like they leave enough on the tubing to customize it some.

Any recommendations on a tubing notcher? I just got a full drillpress, but it seems like tubing notchers are hit or miss. Eveyone complains about most of them (probably because they all use bronse bushings instead of bearings). I thought about getting a cheapo HarborFreight one and a good hole saw to see how far it would get me. I'm kinda building in the engine/trans -> cage -> suspension -> paint -> everything else order.