Wanting to build a '69 Camaro super car, but need help with ideas.......

[RoadFarmer]

My uncle asked me to help him with building his '69 Camaro. He wants it to pretty much be a street legal race car with modern amenities( stereo, power windows, a/c)

He has a '68 Camaro with a Speed-tech performance front and rear pro touring suspension, but wants this car to have the best it track style suspension and braking.
He plans on running an 820hp all aluminum LS7, still hasn't decided on a transmission.

Any help with ideas, chassis companies, parts to look at, or opinions would be greatly appreciated.

[RoadFarmer]

Also noticed that Speed-Tech and TCI both offer air spring suspension options.....is this better performance wise or just better for lowering the car down for a bitchin stance?

[theRG]

Tell him to buy a C6 Corvette, a Katech crate engine, and some suspension upgrades and he'll probably come out alot cheaper.

[RoadFarmer]

That's not really the direction he wants to head. I'm sure he could buy a new ZR1 for what he'll have in this project, but he'd really like it to be his '69 Camaro.

[jrm93]

Tell him to take a look at the Coolest Camaro in the world project that Car Craft featured recently. Lotsa new high tech parts and ideas in a 69 Camaro

[Johnny Blaze]

Many examples here. Just look around at some of the other builds.

If it were me, I would do, all DSE chassis, suspension, tiger cage. Big cub LSX with single turbo, built t-56 6 speed. AS many carbon fiber body panels as possible.

[rjsjea]

Maybe a RoadsterShop chassis?

http://www.roadstershop.com/products/1967-1969-fast-track-camaro-chassis

[RoadFarmer]

Maybe a RoadsterShop chassis?

http://www.roadstershop.com/products/1967-1969-fast-track-camaro-chassis

Wow that chassis is awesome.....now is something like that leaps and bounds better then the best Detroit Speed and Speed-Tech have to offer? Or will their stuff handle the same?

[Johnny Blaze]

Any of these aftermarket cahssis's or clips will have handling capabilities that will exceed most drivers skill, ability, or nerves.

[parsonsj]

Any of these aftermarket cahssis's or clips will have handling capabilities that will exceed most drivers skill, ability, or nerves.Exactly right.

Unless Uncle Buck has a lot of track experience, there are lots of good choices. And if he does have a lot of track experience, I'd second the Z06 recommendation. No matter what you do... the late model Corvette will be faster.

[RoadFarmer]

So I ask what kind of suspension to use on a pro touring site and now two guys say to just go buy a new corvette? That's kind of against the whole point of my question, no?

[parsonsj]

So I ask what kind of suspension to use on a pro touring site and now two guys say to just go buy a new corvette?The reason for that is you aren't being taken seriously.

As several have said, there are lots of choices, and nearly all of them work better than stock. Take some time; do some reading, and then ask us more specific questions.

[RS_Customs]

Welcome to the site!

When you say race car, what kind do you mean? And what is your uncles driving experience? Is he just a great driver or is he a track rat that goes out and races or at least does track days on road courses on a regular basis?

Like the others have said, most of the aftermarket subframe/suspension systems are big improvements over what these cars came with from the factory. Probably better than 90% of drivers will not be able to drive these suspension systems to their full potential which is why I ask his driving experience.

If it's just a look that he's after with the car or a red light racer, that is a lot different that making a true performer.

Like John said, there is a lot of information to absorb on this site and lots of directions to go. There isn't really any one "this is it" setup.

Give us a little more info and we might be able to help out better.

Robert

[srh3trinity]

I would replicate Stielow's most recent build except go with the ls7 he wants and brakes other than the zr1's for the money.

[rfalker1]

Pro - touring is all about making your old car go fast like a new car. I think the vette idea is great because if you think about it you are putting a LS motor in there. So why not go modern. If not get a 4 link rear suspension upgrade!! A DSE Front CLIP Carbon fiber parts.. A tiger cage. A removable stereo system and spend your money in that direction.
Regardless of what you do and how you do it, you will find people on this sit who will support you and attempt to help you at any time.

Because when it comes down to it your build. Do a little research. Research Mary's Camaro. Not the same year, but if you want a supercar camaro.. then thats the way to go. Good luck.

[SRD art]

I've been planning my wagon build for 2 years and just started the tear down in August. Most of my knowledge came from google searching and reading different forums and asking lots of questions no matter how stupid I may have thought they were. I also bought "How to Make Your Muscle Car Handle" book and it's helping me understand all the geometry and why's behind all the bolt-ons. Here's a link to the book- http://scandc.com/new/node/4 For all out race suspensions there are books for that out there too.

68 Camaros, and all 1st gens for that matter, are a great choice, lots of possible options and tons of experience with building them here and on the web. Take a moment to look up some of the star performer cars here and read up on what they've done. Find a set up you like then maybe pm them for more info.

Don't forget that a good performing car has to look good too :twothumbs. I can help with exterior design ideas and a concept rendering if you're in need. Here's a link to some samples of other work, pm me if you're interested in a bid. https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?81595-New-artwork!

[killer69]

You say in the first post that your uncle already has the Speedtech front and rear suspension?
what is wrong with keeping it?
the Speedtech suspension has proven to be as fast or faster than DSE.
like Johnny said Any of these aftermarket cahssis's or clips will have handling capabilities that will exceed most drivers skill, ability, or nerves

[RoadFarmer]

You say in the first post that your uncle already has the Speedtech front and rear suspension?
what is wrong with keeping it?
the Speedtech suspension has proven to be as fast or faster than DSE.
like Johnny said Any of these aftermarket cahssis's or clips will have handling capabilities that will exceed most drivers skill, ability, or nerves

He has the normal speed-tech subframe and rear setup, not the track setup. Does the new track setup handle alot better than the one he bought last year?

[killer69]

He has the normal speed-tech subframe and rear setup, not the track setup. Does the new track setup handle alot better than the one he bought last year?

There is no differance. the only upgrade would be to the shocks. what he has is what i use.

[Rod]

if your serious about youre build go to sdparts.com (http://sdparts.com/details/dr-whaba/whamule) and order Mark Stielow's book and read it cover to cover, its a good place to start, it will be one of many books you will buy to build a good car, and good luck

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/10/aaaugust2011_02-1.gif

[theRG]

Short answer. A Bugatti Veyron, McLaren F1, Koenigsegg Agera and Ferrari Enzo are supercars. A '69 Camaro can never be a supercar. A 2005 Ford GT is not a supercar, nor is a Z06 or ZR1 Corvette. A true supercar is rare, or as Jeremy Clarkson described the Veyron, "a Concorde moment". So when you say you want a '69 Camaro supercar it can't be done. You could build a supercar that looks like a '69 Camaro using a carbon monocoque, aluminum subframes, carbon body panels, etc. while spending $1million + to develop it.

Now, a McLaren F1 has a 107" wheelbase, 45" roof, 2,500 lbs., 620~ bhp, no power steering, traction control, or ABS, drilled Brembo brakes, 235 & 315 tires, 6 speed manual, and you can get close to those specs. But you will never have a car that handles as well, has a higher top speed or has all of the intangibles that a McLaren F1 has.

[Blevinator]

Short answer. A Bugatti Veyron, McLaren F1, Koenigsegg Agera and Ferrari Enzo are supercars. A '69 Camaro can never be a supercar. A 2005 Ford GT is not a supercar, nor is a Z06 or ZR1 Corvette. A true supercar is rare, or as Jeremy Clarkson described the Veyron, "a Concorde moment". So when you say you want a '69 Camaro supercar it can't be done. You could build a supercar that looks like a '69 Camaro using a carbon monocoque, aluminum subframes, carbon body panels, etc. while spending $1million + to develop it.

Now, a McLaren F1 has a 107" wheelbase, 45" roof, 2,500 lbs., 620~ bhp, no power steering, traction control, or ABS, drilled Brembo brakes, 235 & 315 tires, 6 speed manual, and you can get close to those specs. But you will never have a car that handles as well, has a higher top speed or has all of the intangibles that a McLaren F1 has.

I beg to differ. Z06 and ZR1's are definitely supercars.If not supercars, they should be called supercar ass whippers. I have seen 9 second Z06's in the 1\4 mile. Bugatti Veyron's run a 10.02. I have also seen many 9 second 68 or 69 Camaros, so still faster than a 1.5 million dollar Bugatti in the 1\4 mile. There are many ways to define a supercar. Bottom line: ANY car can be a supercar with enough money thrown at it. Dont let anyone discourage you. As far as cars you dont see everyday, LS7 69 Camaros are more rare than any of the cars mentioned above and can be made to do just about anything you want it to. I am building a 68 Camaro that will put an ass whipping on just about anything on the street, weighs in at 3000 lbs, has comfortable seats, and will get good gas mileage. If thats not super, I dont know what is? Also, your 69 isnt going to lose half its "supercar" retail value its first few years. Pretty super!!

[MrQuick]

Short answer. A Bugatti Veyron, McLaren F1, Koenigsegg Agera and Ferrari Enzo are supercars. A '69 Camaro can never be a supercar. A 2005 Ford GT is not a supercar, nor is a Z06 or ZR1 Corvette. A true supercar is rare, or as Jeremy Clarkson described the Veyron, "a Concorde moment". So when you say you want a '69 Camaro supercar it can't be done. You could build a supercar that looks like a '69 Camaro using a carbon monocoque, aluminum subframes, carbon body panels, etc. while spending $1million + to develop it.

Now, a McLaren F1 has a 107" wheelbase, 45" roof, 2,500 lbs., 620~ bhp, no power steering, traction control, or ABS, drilled Brembo brakes, 235 & 315 tires, 6 speed manual, and you can get close to those specs. But you will never have a car that handles as well, has a higher top speed or has all of the intangibles that a McLaren F1 has.

WHAT???? WHO THE HELL ARE YOU??? HAVE WE FORGOT WHERE WE ARE???? <---interwebs yelling LOL

SUPER CAR!!!! Right here..... how fast we all forget that it exists
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/11/1969BaldwinMotion540CamaroSuperCoupeFA_5-1.jpg

Charley's Jackass blows his Porsche all over the street. Right Charley?

I believe he means within the genre of the vehicles being...and not splitting hares. The man wants a super car let him build his Super car.

[rfalker1]

That camaro is sweet!!! SO you have any specs on it

[Charley Lillard]

"Charley's Jackass blows his Porsche all over the street. Right Charley?" No actually the Porsche Turbo S would spank Jackass in every type of race.

[JEFFTATE]

The sky is the limit with any car project .
You can make a '69 Camaro do a lot with enough money , R&D , and Seat Time .

That said , the Speedtech stuff will work well .
Make sure to fab a way to get big tires under the car for grip . ( Minitubs , etc.)

There are many many other variables to consider .

If I had an unlimited budget , ( I'm talking Bill Gates budget ) , I would have someone like Pratt and Miller , Riley Technologies , or McLaren build me a monocoque chassis , carbon fiber body , fully independent suspension , carbon fiber brakes , dry-sump oiling , '69 Camaro tribute/clone car .

Seat Time is one of the most important factors too .

The most consistently fast PT cars at most of the events are The Ride Tech Test Cars , The Detroit Speed Test Cars , anything built and driven by Brian Finch , Bad Penny , Mary Pozzi's Camaro , Jeff Schwartz's Cars , etc..
You could research the equipment on these cars and emulate them .
The R&D has already been done .
But , A lot of the reason these cars are so fast is the Driver , that has a lot of seat time in the car .

[mpozzi]

By themselves and in part or whole, one companies suspension cannot reallybe compared with another as its how ALL the parts get along with each other plus (wait ... this is the most important part) the experience and talent of the driver behind that steering wheel. You've got the SpeedTech system and it's excellent. Upgrade with brakes, wheels and tires, tie the car together with your TigerCage and subframe connectors, upgrade the seats and harness, and then start thinking about the drivetrain.

Driver's education is also a must for anyone contemplating such a build. With the power increase and handling improvements, an inexperienced shoe can get into trouble in a hurry. Attend several schools in school cars and also in the Camaro when it's driveable. I can't stress this enough ...

And rethink that "racecar" mentality as if you get it to that state, you'll be hating life behind the wheel. It's your car, however ...

Mary Pozzi

[MonzaRacer]

dont forget looking into the 48hr Camaro Bret and crew built at Ridetech, the triple adjustable coil overs with the bolt in 4 link would be right up his alley, or try some slightly different ideas of using the lowers and a third link and a Fays 2 Watts link and run hard.
Depending on the events you want to run search out if Tiger Cage would be enough, Those things are TOUGH, saw a pic of a car with one in it, the front end was ripped off but owner/driver was untouched after wreck. Ill try to find pic, was gonna send to Bret but have mis-filed it so far.

[parsonsj]

And rethink that "racecar" mentality as if you get it to that state, you'll be hating life behind the wheel.Amen. Race cars are fine on the race track -- for about 30 minutes at a time.

[parsonsj]

the Porsche Turbo S would spank Jackass in every type of race.Mark and I were talking about that idea at Hastings last summer. According to the math Mark had done, a C6 Z06 would always beat a 1st gen F-body, no matter what was done to it.

[MrQuick]

"Charley's Jackass blows his Porsche all over the street. Right Charley?" No actually the Porsche Turbo S would spank Jackass in every type of race.

you couldn't play along this one time? LOL

[Blevinator]

Mark and I were talking about that idea at Hastings last summer. According to the math Mark had done, a C6 Z06 would always beat a 1st gen F-body, no matter what was done to it.

Maybe on a road course, but not on the drag strip! Havent seen too many single digit C6Z06's in the 1\4 mile. Plenty of 9 second first Gen Camaros out there!

[John Wright]

Amen. Race cars are fine on the race track -- for about 30 minutes at a time.

LOL...my kidneys were thinking the same thing.

[ace_xp2]

Depends, are you trying to match lap times, or the complete package including ride?
Ride is a very difficult thing to attain, you can make a crappy geometry work okay if you stop the car from moving, but if it isn't moving it's not going to ride all that well.

Most important things Would be to get the cg way down, then way way back, then get the chassis as stiff as you can manage. an engine setback roughly equal to a cobra would be a good start, if you look at those you'll notice the last couple cylinders on either side have metal boxes near them, those are the footwells (a lot of you probably already know that, but it still amazes the hell out of me.)

As for chassis stiffening, I'm not sure what you'd do on a Camaro. Depending on how the car's built you could raise the door sills (and anywhere else the perimeter of the chassis can have height), thicken the A pillars a bunch, add in cross bracing behind the rear seating, and with the engine set back enough you can cross brace the front suspension,etc... Or a big bad cage which would make streeting a bit of a no go.

Then you'd need a lot of tire, some truly kick ass shocks (preferably a couple sets, one with crazy high rate track springs, and another set to swap out with some livable street rates), and a couple years of solid weekend running to get the package half tuned. Sounds way more fun to me than just picking up a set of keys, but then that means a LOT less time thinking/wondering/designing/failing/re-designing/failing/repeat, and a lot more time driving. Which for some is more fun.

And geometry might need an overhaul in the end anyways, there are lots of things that spring rate can't fix.

[parsonsj]

Maybe on a road course, but not on the drag strip!What's a drag strip? :)

[vanzuuk1]

I really like DSE, they make great stuff and they were very patient in answering all my stupid questions.

[Johnny Blaze]

I think we scared him off.

[JEFFTATE]

Part of the allure of a "supercar" like McLaren , Bugatti , Koenigsegg , or Ferrari is the exclusivity , elitism , wealth , power , social staus , and public image they portray about the owner .
Not just the performance data .

[Blevinator]

My uncle asked me to help him with building his '69 Camaro. He wants it to pretty much be a street legal race car with modern amenities( stereo, power windows, a/c)

He has a '68 Camaro with a Speed-tech performance front and rear pro touring suspension, but wants this car to have the best it track style suspension and braking.
He plans on running an 820hp all aluminum LS7, still hasn't decided on a transmission.

Any help with ideas, chassis companies, parts to look at, or opinions would be greatly appreciated.

I personally love the Speed Tech stuff
I would look at a built T56 Magnum to handle the hp your are looking at. Use a twin disc clutch and hydraulic setup
vs mechanical linkage. Billet steel flywheel. Aftermarket shifter. Finish off with an aftemarket bell housing, if you like your legs.Quick Time is a good choice.

Braking choice depends on your budget

There are several great aftermarket solutions from Baer,Wilwood,StopTech,Kore3 etc
If you want great brakes at good pricing, look at late model C6Z51 or C6Z06 (better) calipers
with Kore 3 bracketry. You can also add a hydroboost for more clamping pressure.
Whatever you do, don't skimp on the stopping power!

I would like to comment on your engine choice and power goals

If your are looking at a car that will do well on a road course:
Consider a forged LS3 aluminum block setup.
The factory LS7 block has thinner cylinder walls than the LS3.
For the power you are looking for, you are going to have to use a blower or turbo setup, which creates a ton of pressure in the cylinder walls.
You can also use an LSX block, which can handle up to 2500HP, but will be heavier than the aluminum LS3 or LS7. Not as optimal for a track car. You
can however, move the engine back to help the weight issue.
A forged LS3 with a supercharger or turbo is an awesome setup for the track. I am thinking of going with an A&A blower on my car.
Read up on the LS7 and forced induction. This site as well as Corvette site has alot of info on it.I would be a little worried about longevity
when using a blown LS7. I recently sold my Z06 and have read up on the subject.

Definitely look at Electric Life products for you power windows
Stiffen the frame. At the very least use welded sub frame connectors
Lowering the car will help the car handle better
Relocate battery to the trunk. I am locating mine in an aluminum battery box
centered behind the rear seat. I am looking at a Braille 17lb battery. I used this on
my Z06 with no issues.

You also need good seats and belts
I recommend Recaro for the seats
For the street, Morris Classic Concepts makes a great 3 point belt
For the track, you may want a good harness, although UGLY and bulky.
Buy a large dual fan radiator. Ron Davis,Be Cool etc.

Just follow the project update sections on this forum!!!!!
Many great ideas here.

[killer69]

:cheers:
I personally love the Speed Tech stuff
I would look at a built T56 Magnum to handle the hp your are looking at. Use a twin disc clutch and hydraulic setup
vs mechanical linkage. Billet steel flywheel. Aftermarket shifter. Finish off with an aftemarket bell housing, if you like your legs.Quick Time is a good choice.

Braking choice depends on your budget

There are several great aftermarket solutions from Baer,Wilwood,StopTech,Kore3 etc
If you want great brakes at good pricing, look at late model C6Z51 or C6Z06 (better) calipers
with Kore 3 bracketry. You can also add a hydroboost for more clamping pressure.
Whatever you do, don't skimp on the stopping power!

I would like to comment on your engine choice and power goals

If your are looking at a car that will do well on a road course:
Consider a forged LS3 aluminum block setup.
The factory LS7 block has thinner cylinder walls than the LS3.
For the power you are looking for, you are going to have to use a blower or turbo setup, which creates a ton of pressure in the cylinder walls.
You can also use an LSX block, which can handle up to 2500HP, but will be heavier than the aluminum LS3 or LS7. Not as optimal for a track car. You
can however, move the engine back to help the weight issue.
A forged LS3 with a supercharger or turbo is an awesome setup for the track. I am thinking of going with an A&A blower on my car.
Read up on the LS7 and forced induction. This site as well as Corvette site has alot of info on it.I would be a little worried about longevity
when using a blown LS7. I recently sold my Z06 and have read up on the subject.

Definitely look at Electric Life products for you power windows
Stiffen the frame. At the very least use welded sub frame connectors
Lowering the car will help the car handle better
Relocate battery to the trunk. I am locating mine in an aluminum battery box
centered behind the rear seat. I am looking at a Braille 17lb battery. I used this on
my Z06 with no issues.

You also need good seats and belts
I recommend Recaro for the seats
For the street, Morris Classic Concepts makes a great 3 point belt
For the track, you may want a good harness, although UGLY and bulky.
Buy a large dual fan radiator. Ron Davis,Be Cool etc.

Just follow the project update sections on this forum!!!!!
Many great ideas here.

looks like you just spec'ed out my Nova minus the power windows

[andrewb70]

What's a drag strip? :)

The long straight between the turns...:-)

Andrew

[Blevinator]

:cheers:

looks like you just spec'ed out my Nova minus the power windows

Thanks!
I have a 68 Camaro I am building in the project section of this Forum under Infinity LS3 Camaro
I did a ton of research and feel I have a very good parts listing anyone is interested, especially the OP.Ton of parts
on my list. I will be posting belts,hose parts soon.
Jay at Speed Tech is helping me figure out the logistics for my DSE mini tub,345 inch tires, to work with a full 3" exhaust over
the axle!! Speed Tech has their stuff together!!! Very smart company! Should be buying the Torque Arm setup in January!

[parsonsj]

Our farmer friend hasn't been on or posted since October... so we may be talking with ourselves. :)

[Blevinator]

Our farmer friend hasn't been on or posted since October... so we may be talking with ourselves. :)

At least we will win our arguments!

[exwestracer]

He has the normal speed-tech subframe and rear setup, not the track setup. Does the new track setup handle alot better than the one he bought last year?

That is exactly the sort of research everyone is telling you to do. There is no such thing as a "track" suspension. There are only progressive upgrades to the stock components. Now, DO NOT take this the wrong way, but if you do everything possible to a 69 Camaro suspension; you basically end up with a new Z06... And there's a reason, it works.

[Blevinator]

That is exactly the sort of research everyone is telling you to do. There is no such thing as a "track" suspension. There are only progressive upgrades to the stock components. Now, DO NOT take this the wrong way, but if you do everything possible to a 69 Camaro suspension; you basically end up with a new Z06... And there's a reason, it works.

Many of us put enough money in these cars to buy a new z06.
Thing is we DONT WANT a new z06.
Get off the z06 train, he wants to build an awesome handling first Gen.

[exwestracer]

Many of us put enough money in these cars to buy a new z06.
Thing is we DONT WANT a new z06.
Get off the z06 train, he wants to build an awesome handling first Gen.

Not on any train...he'd asked what he could do to the suspension; I was giving him an example. I didn't see that he wasn't playing anymore or I wouldn't have bothered.

[parsonsj]

Get off the z06 train, he wants to build an awesome handling first Gen.I'm not so sure about that. You'd think if he wanted to do such a thing he'd be here interacting with us and trying to learn.

[Johnny Blaze]

Pipe dreams.
How many guys with the cash to build a "super car" is going to ask their inexperinced nephew to build it?

[nine lives johnny]

The long straight between the turns...:-)

Andrew

best quote ever lol

[LS1-IROC]

Many of us put enough money in these cars to buy a new z06.
Thing is we DONT WANT a new z06.
Get off the z06 train, he wants to build an awesome handling first Gen.

Who doesn't want a new Z06?

I do, I do!!

[MrQuick]

Why all the negative feedback here and hugs and kudos on this thread? https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?84439-Some-Questions-About-Pro-Touring

I believe he was try to come here to learn but we blew him off. Seems to me the trend is starting over.

He is probably over at Corner-carvers getting an education.

[parsonsj]

Well, I feel a bit badly that our friend has seemingly abandoned his quest to build a 69 Camaro Super Car for his uncle. Hopefully he'll come back and give us another chance.

[astroracer]

I want to build an '88 Astro SUPER VAN!!!! Any help out there? :)

[Johnny Blaze]

I want to build an '88 Astro SUPER VAN!!!! Any help out there? :)

http://www.barris.com/gallery_cars/TV_MovieCars/gallery_supervan.html

[astroracer]

LMAO!!! I REMEMBER that Van! OMG!... Classic.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[andrewb70]

best quote ever lol

I have my moments... :-)

Andrew

[Blevinator]

Who doesn't want a new Z06?

I do, I do!!

The z's are very nice! I just sold one with 4500 miles on it.
Decided to go old school as you see many z06's in San Antonio
When I first got my 68, I drove it to Autozone. When I came out of the store,
there were 10+ people huddled around the car. Felt like I was driving a Bugatti Veyron!
Never got the looks or compliments on the z06 that I did on the 68. The first gens are
special!!