Tall Ball Joints, is Proforged the only option?

[Vicinity]

Looking for tall ball joints, the only one I can find are Proforged, are they the only option for first gen Camaro's?

I don't really feel like doing the G-mod.

[dipren443]

Howe has them.

Upper

http://scandc.com/new/node/110

Lower

http://scandc.com/new/node/112

[Vicinity]

Howe has them.

Upper

http://scandc.com/new/node/110

Lower

http://scandc.com/new/node/112

I wasn't sure if those were tall, and if they come in a set, I sent Marcus a PM and didn't hear back.

Do they work with the stock UCA's?

[nicks67camaro]

I wasn't sure if those were tall, and if they come in a set, I sent Marcus a PM and didn't hear back.

Do they work with the stock UCA's?

I know SCANDC has these balljoints for the SPC arms which are not the factory style. I'm not sure if they also offer the bolt in style (factory). Marcus is a good guy he'll set you up nice.

[Henesian]

I'm running AFCO race on my 2nd gen. They may have some for the 1st gen.

[dipren443]

I wasn't sure if those were tall, and if they come in a set, I sent Marcus a PM and didn't hear back.

Do they work with the stock UCA's?

Yes they are tall, and yes they work with factory arms. Call Marcus, he is a very busy man. He is definitely hard to get on the computer.

[SLO_Z28]

I'm running AFCO race on my 2nd gen. They may have some for the 1st gen.

I have the AFCO low friction ball joints as well. VERY high quality.

[Rod]

umm?? whats wrong with the Proforged ones?? just looking for options?

[Vicinity]

umm?? what wrong with the Proforged ones?? just looking for options?

Pretty much. $100 seems kind of high for a set of balljoints, I just wanted to compare pricing/specs/claims.

[SLO_Z28]

Pretty much. $100 seems kind of high for a set of balljoints, I just wanted to compare pricing/specs/claims.

Set as in 4 or 2? For 2 thats about right, I know AFCO's are about $40 + the ride each.

[Vicinity]

Set as in 4 or 2? For 2 thats about right, I know AFCO's are about $40 + the ride each.

2.

Proforged at 49$ a piece.

Anyone know if SC&C ever does GP's or has sales on their UCA's? I found my wheels are rubbing the stock UCA's so I may just go ahead and upgrade now before a catastrophic failure.

[David Pozzi]

We have about a year of street & Autocross on a set of Proforged ball joints with no problems.

[Rod]

I will second Davids comment about a year on AFCO lower ball joints on DSE lower arms, and about 8 months on Proforged tall uppers on global west upper arms, and no problems, my car is driven daily 12 miles each way to work rain or shine and then driven at large and small tracks

[Vicinity]

I've decided to just go ahead and get Uppers, do any uppers come with tall ball joints? I'm looking into Speedtech arms right now.

[Marcus SC&C]

The ProForged ball joints are actually the new kids in town trying to mimic the performance improvements of the well established Howe Precision Series ball joints. The "Gold Standard" (ProForged`s own words) in ball joints,tall or otherwise are made by Howe Racing. These first came out about 6 or 7 years ago and have been used in NASCAR Sprint Cup, ARCA etc. for years now. They`re also in use by the US military on up armored Humvees. They were developed to be a precision high strength alternative to stock type ball joints. They`re made from American steel, in Michigan, by American citizens who speak english.
We don`t just do one "tall" ball joint. We re-engineer the front suspension using taller than stock ball joints to correct geometry issues. They`re one component in a system and often we have to design a clean sheet component to do what we need it to do on a specific car. We offer them as matched components with upper A arms in our StreetComp packages. Taller ball joints can be had with other arms but please call to go over the application with us so we can be sure all the parts will work and play well together. :) Mark SC&C

[Vicinity]

The ProForged ball joints are actually the new kids in town trying to mimic the performance improvements of the well established Howe Precision Series ball joints. The "Gold Standard" (ProForged`s own words) in ball joints,tall or otherwise are made by Howe Racing. These first came out about 6 or 7 years ago and have been used in NASCAR Sprint Cup, ARCA etc. for years now. They`re also in use by the US military on up armored Humvees. They were developed to be a precision high strength alternative to stock type ball joints. They`re made from American steel, in Michigan, by American citizens who speak english.
We don`t just do one "tall" ball joint. We re-engineer the front suspension using taller than stock ball joints to correct geometry issues. They`re one component in a system and often we have to design a clean sheet component to do what we need it to do on a specific car. We offer them as matched components with upper A arms in our StreetComp packages. Taller ball joints can be had with other arms but please call to go over the application with us so we can be sure all the parts will work and play well together. :) Mark SC&C

Mark, do you happen to have a picture of your uppers next to stock first gen Camaro uppers (and above both shot)?

I'm primarily upgrading to avoid wheel to steel contact that I get with the stock uppers, and I only know of Speedtech being a 100% match for my combo (a poster here has the exact combination as I do).

Thanks!

[Marcus SC&C]

Sure! :) These ball joints are all for the same vehicle application. The one on the left is a Moog. The one in the center is a +.5" ProForged unit and the one on the right is a base model Howe Precision Series also with a taller pin. The Xtall SevereDuty Howe unit we normally use for 1st gen applications makes this one look dainty. :eek: When ordered as a package with SPC arms we offer them with NASCAR screw in housings as well. Obviously you can`t see the differences in metallurgy, heat treat or coatings but it gives you some perspective on the design of the parts. A taller upper ball joint may not remedy wheel clearance issues, it may even make some worse, but selecting the right one for your combination CAN make huge improvements in camber gain, RC location and overall handling. Mark SC&C
49961

[Vicinity]

Sure! :) These ball joints are all for the same vehicle application. The one on the left is a Moog. The one in the center is a +.5" ProForged unit and the one on the right is a base model Howe Precision Series also with a taller pin. The Xtall SevereDuty Howe unit we normally use for 1st gen applications makes this one look dainty. :eek: When ordered as a package with SPC arms we offer them with NASCAR screw in housings as well. Obviously you can`t see the differences in metallurgy, heat treat or coatings but it gives you some perspective on the design of the parts. A taller upper ball joint may not remedy wheel clearance issues, it may even make some worse, but selecting the right one for your combination CAN make huge improvements in camber gain, RC location and overall handling. Mark SC&C
49961

Oh wow. Are those the $85 ones on your site? They didn't look all that big in the picture.

[Marcus SC&C]

That`s them. They`re one of those things that when we set them out at a show passersby can`t help but pick them up, play with them and say "Wow...". :) Mark SC&C

[SLO_Z28]

That`s them. They`re one of those things that when we set them out at a show passersby can`t help but pick them up, play with them and say "Wow...". :) Mark SC&C

I agree. If you ever held the different ones in your hand you'd be amazed at the difference for seemingly similar parts.

[Proforged]

I just wanted to compare pricing/specs/claims.

There's some great discussion in here!

Our ball joints feature SAE4140 forged, heat treated ball studs and SAE1045 forged, heat treated housings. We use a metal ring-retained, accordion-style CR rubber boot to keep grease in and dirt out. The Howe joints are nice - can't say anything bad about them at all. I prefer our boot design to theirs - at least the last time I checked, they sell their boot separately and include a plastic zip tie to keep it on the ball joint (things may have changed, not sure). I feel that our boots are more "street-friendly," but I'm sure that Marcus will chime in that he has 100,000 miles of driving on his Howe ball joints with no measurable sign of wear :D

Like David Pozzi said, he has a year or so on ours with no problems. I'm pretty sure he drives his Camaro fairly hard...

When it comes down to it, the Howe and Proforged joints are both 0.50" taller - they will give you the exact same geometry improvement. Our ball joints have a permanent, metal ring-retained boot. Howe's ball joints have a plastic zip tie retained boot. Howe's joints are rebuildable, ours are not - but we have never had a warranty claim, failure, or even a report of one needing replacement from wear-and-tear. Howe's ball joints have less friction in the joint. I personally do not think that this will make any noticeable performance difference on anything but a dedicated racecar where extensive effort has been made to reduce friction and weight, since the breaking torque on a "normal" ball joint is ~40kgf-cm, and the front of a Camaro is 1500+lbs (~680 kg). Some may disagree.

Our ball joints are ~$70 less per pair.

With regard to the AFCO-style low friction ball joints, my understanding is that they achieved this in part by reducing the spring rate on the internal spring that keeps the joint tight. This certainly reduces friction, but it is the equivalent of a partially-worn ball joint. It will wear out faster than a ball joint with a normal spring (like ours). Now, they may not have any problems with premature wear - I'm not badmouthing them by any means. It may be that it will still outlast the life of the vehicle even with a reduced-rate spring, but we were not willing to go down this route and risk having ball joints wearing prematurely.

I hope this answers some of the questions regarding the tall ball joints available on the market. We make a great product and stand behind it.

If you'd like to read more about the testing methods and development process for our ball joints, please check out this post:

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2641406&postcount=5

Oh, and here is a picture of a customer putting our ball joints through some light testing (don't try this at home):

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[SLO_Z28]

How do they do with an axial load? What are the SAE testing standards, and do you meet ISO standards? What do you use for inspection and QC?

Just curious.

[Proforged]

Most of the testing info is below:


We use a forged housing for maximum stud pullout strength. We focused most of the effort on validating the stud design - whenever you're going to add length into a stud, you want to make sure that the stud is still going to be strong enough.

As a benchmark, we went out and purchased a set of boxed Moog® Problem Solver® ball joints and a set of what we call the "GS" (gold standard) 0.5" extended length ball joints that are popular on this forum. We performed two tests - stud pullout and stud impact. A stud pullout test measures the amount of force required to pull the stud out of the housing (higher number is better). A stud impact test is performed by screwing the stud into a wall and dropping a 110 lb weight from 5 feet onto the ball head. The angle of deviation is then measured (a lower number is better, as it means the stud is stronger).

A note about the tests - these are not independent, 3rd party tests. While I am very confident in the results, I am going to avoid naming the competitor's parts because they aren't independently verified. That being said, I would be happy to submit samples of our products for independent testing if any other manufacturer wants to go head to head.

The results are as follows:

Stud Pullout Testing - Peak Force

Upper
Moog®: 18,284 lbs
GS brand: 16,812 lbs* <---this test was performed on a second-gen Camaro version, as we didn't have a first-gen version available at the time of test
Proforged: 18,481 lbs
NOTE: Each of these 3 ball joints VASTLY exceed the ~10,000 lb stud pullout rating of the original GM stamped upper ball joint

Lower
Moog®: 19,686 lbs
GS brand: 16,929 lbs
Proforged: 19,649 lbs

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/12/brokenballjoint-1.jpg
(the "GS" ball joint is shown, post-pullout test. It failed in the expected area - a crack in the housing)

Stud Impact Testing - Degrees of Deviation

Upper
Moog®: 36 degrees
GS brand: 23 degrees
Proforged: 23 degrees

Lower
Moog®: 20 degrees
GS brand: 13 degrees
Proforged: 15 degrees

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/12/impacttest-1.jpg
(the Stud Impact Test machine)

Note: Power Performance is our old name - Proforged=Power Performance
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/12/studcomparo-1.jpg

(studs are shown post-impact test)

As you can see, the Proforged/Power Performance and the "GS" ball stud are quite a bit stronger than the Moog® part. The really interesting thing is that the Moog® part is standard length - if it were 0.5" longer, it would be even weaker! We accomplish the massive additional strength through special heat treat processes, higher quality steel, and a fundamentally better stud design.

The Tall Ball Joints are manufactured in ISO9001/QS 9000 and ISO/TS 16949 certified factories.

[SLO_Z28]

Very cool. Thanks for the info.

[rentedmule]

I have a dozens of auto-X events and a few winters of street driving on a set of proforged tall lowers and they're holding up just as well as the Howe tall uppers I running.