What heads?

[ertoys]

I was given advice by a lot of you to go with AFR heads for my smallblock 355.

I liked the 180s 68cc straight plug because they would put my compression ratio rite at 10:5:1 and I do not want to have to run race fuel or octane booster.

Can I accomplish this with 64cc heads at 11:1 and aluminum heads
maybe using a little thicker head gasket?

I need heads fairly quick and it will be like six weeks for the AFRs so I need to know a couple of things first.

I have Heddmann elite headers and I would rather not have to buy new headers for the new heads.

Is there a #2 choice? if so what do you guys recommend?

Thanks,
Ed

[graycamaro]

Brodix makes nice heads and should be readily available. The have a 180 race rite head that uses standard exhaust bolt pattern and is available with 67cc chambers, straight or angle plugs. We use alot of brodix heads on the stock cars and have always had good results. They are 1329.00$ assembled through Summit and they show they could ship tomorow.
Hope This Helps

James

[chicane67]

The 195cc TFS head is a better head IMHO for the build you are considering.

This head has been used in so many mag articles, that there are endless amounts of information to support what I have just said. One of the best builds for a streeter was an 87 octane engine that made 420+ hp.... with small parts and on a cheap budget. Not to forget to mention to state that they lay the smack down when it comes to port flow, with a simple and very cost effective cartridge roll clean up.... meaning these heads dont require full CNC treatment to make the numbers. They will fit with the headers you currently own and the use of FelPro's steel shim gaskets, you can nail the compression ratio to what you need.

I just happen to have something in the 'for sale' section if you are interested in looking for an option.

[Supercharged 86]

I think of Dart and Brodix being the best. I've seen some weird stuff on the AFR heads like big differences between the bowls on a single head, even the fully CNC'd versions. They do back up their product though.

[streetk14]

IMO, AFR makes the best heads on the market. AFR's flowbench numbers tell the story. They make some of the best flowing heads available. I have a set of their 195cc street heads on my 360ci small block. They out-flow pretty much any other head with a comparable intake port size, as well as many other heads with larger intake ports. They work very well on the street, and offer more performance out of the box than just about anything. Their 180cc head is supposed to be exceptional. Trick Flow makes a good head for the money. I've never been impressed with Dart heads. I've read some good things about Edelbrock's E-Tech heads. What is the intended use of the car/ performance goals? What cam, intake, & exhaust parts are you going to use? What kind of power numbers are you hoping to see?
-Andy

BTW, you should be able to find AFR heads in stock through a number of distributors. I believe Jegs now carries them.

[ertoys]

Well let me start off by thanking you guys for popsting opinions.

I have changed my mind and will probably be going with a forged 377.

My cousin has a set of dart iron eagles that I can get for $650.00.

I will go with those for now because of the pricepoint.

[graycamaro]

First Streetk14 flow numbers mean little and even less on a street engine. If it was a ideal set of heads was just based on flow numbers why not put 230cc heads on I am sure they will out flow your 195s. I am not saying your 195s are bad heads because I know they perform well and are good quality heads. The reason I sayed what I did is because he asked for an alternative to AFR and in my opinion as for as assembeled ready to bolt on cylinder heads Brodix is the way to go. Like you I am not very impressed with Darts Heads mostly because of there valve job from the factory sucks on most heads I've seen where brodix is about the same quality as having them done at a High performance oriented machine shop such as the one I work at.

Also I suggested the 180 Brodix as opposed to the 200 because it will generate more lowend which is desireable on a street car in most cases.

ertoys what cc intake runners do the dart iron eagles have? And why did you decide to go with a 377? could build a bigger engine for the same price.

The 377 being a destroked 400 means your going to buy crank rods piston anyway why not build a 420+ci engine.

[streetk14]

First Streetk14 flow numbers mean little and even less on a street engine. If it was a ideal set of heads was just based on flow numbers why not put 230cc heads on I am sure they will out flow your 195s. I am not saying your 195s are bad heads because I know they perform well and are good quality heads. The reason I sayed what I did is because he asked for an alternative to AFR and in my opinion as for as assembeled ready to bolt on cylinder heads Brodix is the way to go. Like you I am not very impressed with Darts Heads mostly because of there valve job from the factory sucks on most heads I've seen where brodix is about the same quality as having them done at a High performance oriented machine shop such as the one I work at.

Also I suggested the 180 Brodix as opposed to the 200 because it will generate more lowend which is desireable on a street car in most cases.

ertoys what cc intake runners do the dart iron eagles have? And why did you decide to go with a 377? could build a bigger engine for the same price.

The 377 being a destroked 400 means your going to buy crank rods piston anyway why not build a 420+ci engine.



Flow numbers mean nothing for power? That's news to me. Flow bench numbers (through the entire lift-range, not just peak #'s) are a big deal. If port flow didn't matter, we would all still be running "camel hump" heads. A smaller intake runner that can flow as much air as a larger runner is going to be a better street head. That was my point. The 195 AFR's flow incredibly well for a 195cc head. This equals very good port velocity and torque. I've seen a lot of dyno tests that prove it ( a 420ci small block putting out 560hp comes to mind). Throwing on a "big" set of heads will do nothing but hurt power unless they are matched to the combination. I was also just looking at Car Craft's head flow database (www.carcraft.com/techarticles/116_head_chev/). Look, and you will see that most of the heads in the 220cc range don't outflow my heads (except at very high valve lifts). I don't think that there is anything wrong with Brodix or the other manufacturers. Brodix is a very reputable company, but I have not seen much in the way of real-world test results.
-Andy

[chicane67]

Well, I agree with graycamaro. Number are not everything.... you have to look at it as an entire package.... and that package needs to be done right.

And not to start with something that we have gone over and over, many times before..... but the TFS 195cc heads will outflow the AFR's pretty easily...... without being fully CNC'd. And lets not get on the CNC subject either...... because what AFR does to their heads is mearly a guide line to begin with. A true pair CNC'd heads would run you about $6k+...... and thats just the beggining, because it still has to be set up for its peticular package to begin with.

[graycamaro]

Streetk14 I sayed the afr were good heads its just he was looking for an alternative to afr and I made my suggestion based on exactly what you sayed flow throughout an entire lift range that is why I sayed 180 because I knew that on a 355 ci engine the 200 were going to hurt him down low because they are aimed at mostly peak flow as Brodix is big in to dirt track racing and looseing lowend power in a dirt stock car helps traction coming off the corner. Where a 195 AFR head even though it is almost as big as the 200cc runners of the brodix head would not of hurt his lowend torque as much do to afrs port design. So I completely agree with you I just wanted to give him another option since he did not want to wait for the afrs.

Sorry James

[streetk14]

Well, I agree with graycamaro. Number are not everything.... you have to look at it as an entire package.... and that package needs to be done right.

And not to start with something that we have gone over and over, many times before..... but the TFS 195cc heads will outflow the AFR's pretty easily...... without being fully CNC'd. And lets not get on the CNC subject either...... because what AFR does to their heads is mearly a guide line to begin with. A true pair CNC'd heads would run you about $6k+...... and thats just the beggining, because it still has to be set up for its peticular package to begin with.

I was by no means saying that flow numbers were the only factor in producing power. Intake and exhaust port size and shape, combustion chamber design, valve size and even head material all can effect power output. Like I said before, throwing a big set of free-flowing heads on an engine that does not need them is not going to help. But, I'm not sure where you got your info on the flow numbers. Check out these links for some unbiased test results. These are the basic 195's available from Trick Flow and AFR respectively. These are not the "CNC" Competition Package AFR's.
http://carcraft.com/techarticles/116_head_cat2/index7.html
http://carcraft.com/techarticles/116_head_cat2/index4.html

-Andy

[malihoochie]

Graycamaro - you said that the valve job on the Dart heads suck ?? What is wrong with a 5 angle intake valve job? 2 angle to a radius exhaust valve job? The same type valve angles are used by the pro stock guys. On the other hand - dry flow #'s are pretty much a BS way judge heads, for example a coffee can with both ends chopped off would flow great but we don't use heads with ports like that on any of our cars - do we?
ertoys - If you were to continue on with the 355 engine I'd suggest taking a look at the 180cc Pro 1 heads offered by Dart. They are a very strong cylinder head. Good luck w/ your build whatever motor you go with.

[graycamaro]

malihoochie are we talking pro stock drag cars. Because most drag cars especially higher classes such as top fuel care very little about valve jobs. If you saw how crude those engines are put together you would be in aww. generally speaking all they do is put a seat in grind a 45 degree seat and stick a valve in it. Seeing as these cars only run for a couple of seconds at a time it doesn't matter if the valve job last or not. whereas on a street car, stock car or road race car this becomes very important.

On most Dart heads I have seen brand new untouched the exhaust seat is very wide for a performance application and the radius cut they put on the top of there seats does alot to improve flow on a bench but if you look at how far that puts the valve down inside the chamber it is going to take more valve lift to get the valve out from the hole its in so it can breathe. Also a radiused bottom angle on the exhaust causes the seat to wear very quickly.

I work at a machine shop here in Il and we do everything from turning drums, rotors, flywheels, to machineing blocks, heads, rods, grinding cranks, and we build everything from stock engines to restoration engines, high performance street engines, and racing engines. Most of are racing engines are for dirt track stock cars and road race cars like the a AS cars that run SCCA. We have also done swamp buggie engines, tractor pull, and some drag car engines. So this is where my experience comes from.
I am speaking from things I have personally seen as well as what my boss has shown and explained from his 30+ yrs of experience.

James

[malihoochie]

I also work at a place that does alot of machining on heads & blocks, we also build engines, but we don't turn rotors or resurface flywheels. Maybe if you are in the Detroit area you can come by and check out our shop, we are in Troy, MI. I'd be happy to introduce you to my boss, his name is Richard Maskin, he knows a few things about motors - maybe you could google him & find out his story?

[graycamaro]

Well if were talking about the Richard Maskin that owns Dart machinery and build drag car engines I would have to say he would probably have a biased opinion about heads.

Also in no way am I saying dart heads are bad peices just not what I would use if I was looking for a set of bolt on heads for a street car. We do use many dart heads on dirt track cars and they perform well but we get them as castings and fine tune the valve job.

I think it would be very intresting to meet him but I hardly have time to work on my own car I am so busy I dont think I will be making a trip to michigan anytime soon. It is a pretty good drive since I live in southern Illinois if I was up near Chicago then maybe.

I am alway up for listening to someone with more experience and different veiws and although his experience is in drag racing I am sure he has tons of knowledge that would help us in the stock car world. I would never claim to know it all and I am sure any body that is good at what they do would say the same thing because there is always something to learn. I am very open minded and appreciate all things automotive even though drag racing isn't my thing I have watch it on occasion and understand the amount of time and preparation goes in to any race car.

If you don't mind me asking what is your job? I would assume you work at Dart machinery,but what exactly do you do? Just intrested. Also do you do any kind of racing yourself? Drive, Pit, Maintain, or Otherwise.

I am pretty much an entry level machinist in my opinion as I don't grind cranks, allign bore, ballance engines, or assemble customer engines yet. I have been working for my boss for 2 years and have learned quite a bit in that time. I also help a few of the local dirt track stock car guys and gals on there stock cars during the week and in the pits at the track.

[zbugger]

Hmmm..... First of all, Ed, good choice on the heads. Very good for a street motor and you should like them. Depending on your cam choice, you should make some very good power.

Secondly, guys, I think some research does need to be done. In a cylinder head, flow determines the power you are going to be able to make, and where. Want an example? Ok. A great street head is the AFR 180. Wanna hear something strange? Those will easily out flow my 200cc intake Sportsman II's. The difference isn't extremely great to the casual onlooker, but it is good when you put them on the motor. You also have to understand how a head flows the air/fuel mixture. Why did I choose my heads? I chose them because they will make the power on the street where I want it. They are well known to have weak exhaust flow. I'll be using that to my advantage though as my motor is gonna be a smog motor. The AFR heads should move my power band higher as they flow better in the upper rpm and cam lift range.

Another thing you have to think about is combustion chamber. That's something that has an effect on swirl and tumble into the cylinder. That's something that determines actual mixture burn. The more complete the burn, the better power you can make as well. To that effect, that's what valve jobs work as well. As they are smoother, they flow the air smoother and create less turbulence to what's flowing into the cylinder. that makes for uninterrupted smooth flow that will allow the chamber to work properly.

If I could recommend a book to read, I would, but I don't remember the names at the moment. If I remember to later, I'll post a title. Maybe someone else can help with this later. Research is good. Don't just throw parts at a motor thinking it will make more power because it has better numbers. You have to apply all of those numbers to how you will be using that motor.

[graycamaro]

Alright this is my 6th and final post on this thread. We could debate for years on what the best head would be for any engine combination and we would still have several different opinions. I am not trying to change anyones opinion on what heads to run I simply was giving ertoys what I would consider to be the best alternative to the AFR heads and have explained my expereince.

If you have payed attention to what is going on ertoys has since decided to go with a 377 and a set of Dart Iron Eagles that he is getting from his cousin so posting recomendations on heads now is kind of useless.

I wish ertoys best of luck with his new engine and I have givin him advice in his other post on the 377.

Ertoys if you need any more suggestions or advice please don't hesitate to pm me. I hate to see guys spend a ton of money having a shop do there engine that does half ass work not saying that the shop that your talking to does but if question what they say I would be more than happy to give you a second opinion.

James

[zbugger]

Did I give a recommendation on a set of heads? Hmm... I don't remember saying that. I did tell him that he made a good choice in heads though. I did read every one of the posts in this thread before making my own post, as I NORMALLY DO. I don't just post something without taking all given information into account. Yes, the debate could go on forever, as opinions are like *******s and everybody has one. Do I care? No. I'd rather give someone some advice on what to look for and how they can find what they are looking for. I'll fully admit to not being a machinist or a mechanic at the moment, even though I have been trained on the equipment and can go get my ASE certifications. I've done a lot of research on engine combinations and how to build an engine for certain applications. I don't know everything, but I also tend to be on the conservative side. Like I said, do your own research. It's something that will benefit you more than being told what to get.

[malihoochie]

Graycamaro - I am one of four tech/salesmen.
Zbugger - Were you thinking of Reher-Morrison's upper assembly book, perhaps? It is a good piece with lots of info - of course there are many other good books out there as well (too many to list).

Take care guys

[zbugger]

No, it wasn't the book I was thinking of, but damn.... That's a good one. Thanks for reminding me of it.

[ertoys]

Ok guys everything has changed! Thank you all for your input, it is much appreciated :drive:

I had my cousins heads checked out and there were problems with them. Valve guides were to tight and it would have cost me about $725.00 (including buying the heads) to have them ready to bolt on my car.

I gave the heads back to my cousin and ordered the Dart Pro 1's, which is what I was looking at originally anyway.

Ed

[graycamaro]

How did the valve guides get too tight? How much did your cousin want for the heads? Did they need new parts valves or springs? Here are some machine work price for what the heads need if my shop did them $54.00 Mill, $48.00 Size Guides, $220.00 Competition Level Valve Job (includes teardown, cleaning, magnaflux, assembly). Total $322.00 in machine work. Just wanted to compare to the shop that you had look at the heads and see if our prices are high or low. They usually vary depending on where you live.

[ertoys]

I appreciate it! My cousin wanted $400.00 for the heads and my buddy works at a machine shoop here in St Louis, it was gonna cost me $300.-350. for the machine work needed. So I was looking at $750.00 and thats keeping the old springs, for a set of the first series dart iron heads (not iron eagle) or buy brand new aluminum pro 1s for $1200.00. I went with the pro 1s and they will be here tomorrow.

[graycamaro]

yeah you made the right choice going with new heads. It will be well worth the cost. Nice to see are cost are around the same.

James

[ertoys]

One of my heads arrived damaged today,someone was kind enough to drop one of the heads directly on a corner and smashed that corner (damned UPS!)
But no worries, one call to Summit and they sent another out today so no problem since it will be a week or two till I have time to install anyway.