Battery and cable layout

[BuddyP]

Attached is a sketch of a planned layout (68 camaro, battery in trunk, LS motor)

What am I missing? Anything on here in correct? Want to get items ordered soon but wanted to confirm and make sure I'm not missing anything. Should I put any fuses in? If so where?

Thanks in advance.49125

[12sec ss]

I would also run a ground cable to the motor, motor to subframe, and motor to body. you can never have too many grounds.

[BonzoHansen]

A ford style solenoid at the battery so the starter cable is dead except at start. I agree on additional ground cable to the drive train. I'm scared of fire so I'd fuse the charge wire at the battery and a fuse or link at the alt. But I'm paranoid.

Are you worried about passing tech at a drag strip?

[wmhjr]

A ford style solenoid at the battery so the starter cable is dead except at start. I agree on additional ground cable to the drive train. I'm scared of fire so I'd fuse the charge wire at the battery and a fuse or link at the alt. But I'm paranoid.

Are you worried about passing tech at a drag strip?

+1 on everything here. Ford solenoids are cheap insurance for that heavy circuit. You can't have too many ground cables, Maxifuses or fuse links at the battery are essential if it's trunk mounted. I'd add a couple bus bars for connecting grounds under the dash and maybe in the back.

Also, add charging studs AND A CUTOFF SWITCH!!!! I don't care if it's externally mounted if you don't need to pass NHRA/IHRA tech, but you'll thank yourself later when you're working on the car.

[rocketrod]

This is how I did mine http://www.madelectrical.com/newstuff/

[BuddyP]

Not worried about passing tech, just considering putting battery in back and want to do it right. But if it's to much of a fiaco and overwelming then I'll just stick it right back up front. I am no wiring guru...hate it actually. It seems the more I dig into this the more expense and intricate it's getting.

What are the charging studs?? So an 80 amp in the charging wire (8 awg)?

Kinda familer with what the solenoid is, does both the starter cable and charge cable get hooked into it?

[BuddyP]

ok... think I'm going to start out with this... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3984Q2em1423Q2el2649QQ itemZ370535113415QQsspagenameZSTRKQ3aMEWAXQ3aIT

from here I'll add a solenoid and quick shut off. Anybody see any issues here?

If I run a negative back to the motor also, what gage does it need to be? Also, will the battery charge by running the 8 awg wire from the alternator to the positive on the starter? Or does it have to go directly from Alt to battery?

If I was to go with a Optima battery, which battery should I go with?

[wmhjr]

Not worried about passing tech, just considering putting battery in back and want to do it right. But if it's to much of a fiaco and overwelming then I'll just stick it right back up front. I am no wiring guru...hate it actually. It seems the more I dig into this the more expense and intricate it's getting.

What are the charging studs?? So an 80 amp in the charging wire (8 awg)?

Kinda familer with what the solenoid is, does both the starter cable and charge cable get hooked into it?

It's not a big deal to do this. Just do your research, think it through. The mechanics of doing it are not difficult.

Charging studs are exposed studs with removable caps that you can mount to allow connections for battery charger and/or jumper cables without opening the battery box, or in my case, without taking apart the trunk upholstery since my trunk is upholstered.

The solenoid makes it so that the heavy amperage/load cable going from the battery to the starter is ONLY live when the starter is engaged. That is IMHO very important, as you will now have that heavy, hot cable going through your car from back to front. If it gets frayed, insulation melted, etc, you could have a safety issue. The solenoid will prevent any issues any time the key is not in the temporary "start" position. Well worth the effort. It has nothing to do with the charging wire from the battery to the alternator.

Can't speak for the kit you referenced. It doesn't state the wire gauge. Don't know the dimensions of the box. Fits "most batteries" isn't precise enough for me but it may be fine. I'm personally partial to Optima Red Top batteries for our use.

[BuddyP]

Thanks for the info, been a great help. Am looking at a optima battery tray now. Saw you run at gingerman and autobahn, wish i would've looked closer at your battery setup!

Which red top battery are you running?

[1969CamaroRS]

Working on the same thing myself. One idea if you are going to use a sealed Optima battery, you don't really need a sealed container.

What I went with a was Billet Specialties tray:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/09/135248910-1.jpg (http://www.jegs.com/i/Billet+Specialties/135/248910/10002/-1)

I ran 0000 awg cables for the Starter and Main ground, used 2awg for the main B+ line. Probably overkill on the gauge size but wanted minimal voltage drop to the starter for a high compression big block. Also used the Mad Electrical Ford Solenoid mounted with a Flaming River cutoff switch:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/09/flafr1005_w-1.jpg (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FLA-FR1005/?rtype=10)

along with a 150amp fuse block for the B+ line:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://bluesea.com/category/5/21/productline/128)

and a smaller fuse block (from AAW) for fuel pump and keep alive circuits. Tied the rear ground to the rear frame rail and the body:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/09/Battery001-1.jpg

Then up front made a single grounding point for the cylinder heads, engine block, frame and body (attached to the frame).
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/09/Battery004-1.jpg

(Works in progress, not final routed yet)

[wmhjr]

Thanks for the info, been a great help. Am looking at a optima battery tray now. Saw you run at gingerman and autobahn, wish i would've looked closer at your battery setup!

Which red top battery are you running?

I'm using http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ULT-9004-003/

[BuddyP]

Also want to verify that I'll be ok with 2 awg wire from battery to starter.

[wmhjr]

Also want to verify that I'll be ok with 2 awg wire from battery to starter.

I wouldn't use it, but..... I used all mainly 1/0

[BuddyP]

Mmmm I've noticed that most battery relocation kits on the market come with 2 awg cables?

[1969CamaroRS]

Mmmm I've noticed that most battery relocation kits on the market come with 2 awg cables?

What you need to worry about is the Voltage drop over about 10-12 feet by having the battery in the trunk.
2 awg cables, will lose about 2volts (12 feet given a 600 cranking amps but depending on distance and start cranking amps). 1/0 will drop about 1.4v and 4/0 about 0.7v. Drop too much and you will have weak or no cranking at the starter, especially on hot days.

Not to mention 2 awg cable is only rated to about 130a, I wouldn't want to be cranking alot or that cable will get *hot*. 1/0 is about double the price of 2 awg and 4/0 doubles it again (to about $9-10/ft).

Here is a good site for wire rating and for calculating the voltage drop:
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

I got my battery cable from these guys (fairly reasonable prices especially on the good fine stranded marine cable), also they will make you custom length cables for $1 an end if you buy all the stuff from them:
http://shop.genuinedealz.com/Marine%20Grade%20Wire/Marine%20Battery%20Cable/

Hope this helps.

[wmhjr]

Ed, great link. It's exactly what I was concerned about. A good friend of mine is an electrical engineer and he was the maintstay of my overall wiring. He said nothing less than 1/0, and that's what I did. Also, nice link on the cable supplies. Thanks!

[1969CamaroRS]

Glad I could help, wracked my brain when I was trying to piece this together.

[ModedCB2]

Also avoid "welding cable" the heavy-thick strand stuff for arc welding cables. It will get hot and when formed can kink/break much more easily that fine stranded cable. You can get decent "car audio" type 1/0 or 0/1 on ebay for $2-$4/ft.

The trick with the pre-made kits is that they cheap out on welding cable for the long runs and that is where you will have higher losses that the voltage drops listed above.

I did an experiment a year or so ago. I took my 220v mega-ancient arc/stick welder and made brand new cables:

First using traditional welding 1/0 cable. When at 60% cycle I had one of the cables accidently laying across my ankle. It left a 2nd degree burn on my skin. also I couldn't handle the cable with a mechanic's gloved hand for several seconds.

Next I used some average, find strand Car audio 1/0. Same identical O.D. but looking at the strand structure you can tell it has less outer coating and more actual wire. Same test. I could more the cable with my bare hand. It was still VERY warm to the touch, but not searing into my skin.

Personally I would run 1/0 for the back to front main run to a junction, with circuit breaker at the battery side. Then a 0/1 to the starter, separately breakered.

I have built many systems over the years and I have typically saved $$ versus the performance gain over the "kits". I buy my optima mounting brackets, circuit breakers, wire, cable ends, etc mainly on eBay. just easier to get exactly what you want for your install.

here are some links to places to buy:

circuit Breakers:
http://stores.ebay.com/Bag-Boy-Home-and-Car-Audio-Wiring/_i.html?_nkw=circuit+breaker&submit=Search&_sid=14969603

1/0 0 gauge
http://stores.ebay.com/Bag-Boy-Home-and-Car-Audio-Wiring/0-Gauge-/_i.html?_fsub=11615574&_sid=14969603&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322

www.darvex.com Trail is the guy's name. He is a GREAT guy. Fellow enthusiast. He's in arkansas, so semi-central location. ships same day... bag-boy on ebay is Darvex.

But you can find (2) packs of circuit breakers on ebay for $25.

Lastly, I would say this: as a Certified Car Audio Installer and wiring street rods and muscle cars for 20+ years... the flexibility ALONE of fine strand wire is worth the $1-2/ft difference in price. Working with welding cable in a car is a pain in the butt getting it tucked into corners, around edges etc.

Rob

[Jim Nilsen]

Just as a note to add . Not all welding cable is the same, I have 2/0 welding cable that is very fine strand, the strands are as fine as your hair and the cable bends very easily for its size. my voltage drop from the back to the front is less than 1 volt in 15'.

I got my welding cable from Genuinedealzs at a very good price.

[BulldawgMusclecars]

Its all in where you buy it. Most of the audio stuff I have run across, especially no-name stuff, is crap...and its usually some God awful color, too. The welding cable I buy from my local supplier is very thin strand, has a lot of copper in it, and is very flexible. It also has a more durable coating on it than battery cable.

[wmhjr]

Its all in where you buy it. Most of the audio stuff I have run across, especially no-name stuff, is crap...and its usually some God awful color, too. The welding cable I buy from my local supplier is very thin strand, has a lot of copper in it, and is very flexible. It also has a more durable coating on it than battery cable.

Joe, I think you're right but even in a more general way. Audio stuff I've seen has been pretty much not up to the quality I'd want. For both battery and welding cable, I've seen both good and bad quality from both. The more expensive stuff I've used has generally had better strands inside, and tougher coating on the outside.

[Andrew McBride]

I am working on the same thing as most of you. I am trying to figure out where to route the cables. Some run them under the car some through the inside and down the ps channel. If so, what grommets did you use?
If anyone has pictures that would be great!

[grenade inspector]

I would also recommend good fine strand welding wire.

[SLO_Z28]

I would also run a ground cable to the motor, motor to subframe, and motor to body. you can never have too many grounds.

^This!

We have 37 grounds in police cars for all the equipment to properly work!

[wmhjr]

I am working on the same thing as most of you. I am trying to figure out where to route the cables. Some run them under the car some through the inside and down the ps channel. If so, what grommets did you use?
If anyone has pictures that would be great!

I used quite a bit of insulation in my project. Damplifier Pro as the first layer throughout the entire interior (floor, firewall) with Luxury Liner Pro on top of that. It allowed me to cut channels to route the wires through, as the Luxury Liner Pro is quite thick. Here's a pic of what it looked like prior to carpet.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/01/GTO4Jan2010005-1.jpg

Under the duct tape there are seams/channels where some wiring was run. I'm not a big fan of running all the wiring under the car. Tried to minimize potential damage especially to the heavy gauge power cable.

I used two kinds of grommets. One for the heavy power cable which transitions to under the car in the shifter area to go to the starter. For that I used a standard rubber type of grommet. The remainder all go through Earls of this type:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/10/DSC_4236-1.jpg

[Motown 454]

Has anyone used these panel pass throughs on the flat area at the top of the toe board where it meets the firewall with a Vintage Air Gen 4 A/C unit. It takes a big hole and I don't want to put them there if it interferes with the VA system.

[The WidowMaker]

i saw it asked but didnt read an answer. can you use the alternator charging line as the power feed the the junction blocks?

[amargari]

I went with this layout.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/09/RearWiringAPMGIF-1.gif

-The battery, maxi-fuse, Ford Starter Solenoid, and Disconnect Switch are in the trunk.
-The alternator is protected on both sides with a fuse or a circuit breaker.

[amargari]

Here is picture of the trunk.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/09/TrunkWiringDone2JPG-1.jpg

[BuddyP]

Well I never persued this area but am about to again. Looks like several different options to choose from, not familiar at all with what size fuses to use and such. Still not sure how to route and setup this thing. I thought the shut off switch would be in line to shut everything down, but by the schematic above it only shuts off the fuse box??

I have the ford style solenoid. I'll get some 1/0 wire.

[1969CamaroRS]

Instead of using grommets I used bulkhead connectors and routed the cables along the trans-tunnel inside the car to the passenger side floor:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/12/Bulkheadfitting-1.jpg

To the rear there was a firewall I made that sat between the trunk and interior pass compartment again used bulkhead connectors:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/06/InteriorFloor016-1.jpg

[BuddyP]

Well I messed with it a little... I put in a 1 awg to the trunk. So from the Alt to the starter solenoid is a 4 awg?

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[boostin05blacksti]

Hey Buddy,
Ive been following this thread very close. Do you have a final drawing of how you ran it like your first post..? That was the clearest to me and Im sure would help many others. Also maybe put some links of part numers of what you used. Im gearing up to buy soon and like the look and safty of your system. Simple yet effective.

Is this the shutoff and ford style solenoid you used?

http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance-Products/555/10305/10002/-1
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance-Products/555/10308/10002/-1
If youd rather talk via phone/email lmk. Thanks, Steven

Revised:
Did some serching and reading..not sure if you are going carbed or efi on your set up but read the warning on jegs site for the ford style starter solenoid:

WARNING! This solenoid DOES NOT use suppression diodes. Use of this solenoid on vehicles with Engine Control Computers will result in permanent damage to the computer/processor.

as seen here...
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance-Products/555/10308/10002/-1
Im not a wiring guy and am not sure what this means. Being that I am going efi and will have a computer can someone explain this in layman's terms.

[BuddyP]

Huh, yeah that doesnt make sense. Especially since the solenoid is only in the main starter cable. This is why I hate wiring so much.

[boostin05blacksti]

Huh, yeah that doesnt make sense. Especially since the solenoid is only in the main starter cable. This is why I hate wiring so much.

Are those the products that you bought for your car? Im not trying to fry my 400+ computer due to a 20 dollars solenoid.. I hate wiring the same, but need it done right even if it kills me learning it.

[BuddyP]

I didn't buy those exact parts but they are identical. I forget the manufacturer of the solenoid but the shut off switch is a Taylor (looks identical to the one you posted).

Here's a diagram of my wireing to date. I have 4 awg ground straps (2) between body and subframe and will put 1 between motor/body and 1 between motor/subframe. If any body wants to help me add to this diagram I'd greatly appreciate it!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[04ctd]

Buddy, relax & think about it slow.

you have three circuits basically:

-the starter lead (solenoid protected at back)
-the battery charging lead (from alternator, only needs smaller AWG since it is only trickle charging the battery)
-shut off switch (keeps B+ from being applied to the vehicle when you want to do maintenance, so you don't wear out battery clamps.


you need to take Amargari's picture, print it out, and take his alternator lead off the maxi fuse, and onto the "ON" side of the cut out/shut off switch,
and then, i think you will understand it better.

think of water flowing around the wires:
-big power to crank
-small flow to charge
-no flow to do maintenance.

[BuddyP]

I think I have the main cable figured out but unsure what to tie in between IGN, fuel pump and such and what should have a fuse and how big and such.

[vcho455]

Hey BuddyP if you want to PM me I can help you with your questions. I had back surgery 3 weeks ago and I'm just laying around the house now.

[vcho455]

Revised:
Did some serching and reading..not sure if you are going carbed or efi on your set up but read the warning on jegs site for the ford style starter solenoid:

WARNING! This solenoid DOES NOT use suppression diodes. Use of this solenoid on vehicles with Engine Control Computers will result in permanent damage to the computer/processor.

as seen here...
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance-Products/555/10308/10002/-1
Im not a wiring guy and am not sure what this means. Being that I am going efi and will have a computer can someone explain this in layman's terms.[/QUOTE]

The layman's definition is: A solenoid is made up of a coil of wire and an armature. The armature is a piece of iron that moves as a result of the magnetic field the coil makes when energized. The movement of the armature operates the switch part of the solenoid. Its just a big relay. The problem comes when the solenoid is de-energized and the movement of the armature past the coil can produce a voltage spike which is seen in all the connected wiring and if the spike is large enough it can affect adjacent wires. The spike that is created will be AC voltage and most automotive electronics have no protection from AC voltage and as result are damaged. The suppression diodes are designed to control this voltage.

[BuddyP]

Ok, so since I have a solenoid AND fuel injection, should I be ditching the solenoid or will a breaker/fuse take care of the issue? Or depending on how it's wired will I not have an issue?


Revised:
Did some serching and reading..not sure if you are going carbed or efi on your set up but read the warning on jegs site for the ford style starter solenoid:

WARNING! This solenoid DOES NOT use suppression diodes. Use of this solenoid on vehicles with Engine Control Computers will result in permanent damage to the computer/processor.

as seen here...
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance-Products/555/10308/10002/-1
Im not a wiring guy and am not sure what this means. Being that I am going efi and will have a computer can someone explain this in layman's terms.

The layman's definition is: A solenoid is made up of a coil of wire and an armature. The armature is a piece of iron that moves as a result of the magnetic field the coil makes when energized. The movement of the armature operates the switch part of the solenoid. Its just a big relay. The problem comes when the solenoid is de-energized and the movement of the armature past the coil can produce a voltage spike which is seen in all the connected wiring and if the spike is large enough it can affect adjacent wires. The spike that is created will be AC voltage and most automotive electronics have no protection from AC voltage and as result are damaged. The suppression diodes are designed to control this voltage.

[BuddyP]

Buddy, relax & think about it slow.

you have three circuits basically:

-the starter lead (solenoid protected at back)
-the battery charging lead (from alternator, only needs smaller AWG since it is only trickle charging the battery)
-shut off switch (keeps B+ from being applied to the vehicle when you want to do maintenance, so you don't wear out battery clamps.


you need to take Amargari's picture, print it out, and take his alternator lead off the maxi fuse, and onto the "ON" side of the cut out/shut off switch,
and then, i think you will understand it better.

think of water flowing around the wires:
-big power to crank
-small flow to charge
-no flow to do maintenance.

I just ran 10 awg from alternator to battery, is that size sufficient for trickle?

[jedg]

Does this help? I didn't realize this would be necessary. Glad I started reading this thread.

http://www.suregripcontrols.com/install_suppress.htm





Revised:
Did some serching and reading..not sure if you are going carbed or efi on your set up but read the warning on jegs site for the ford style starter solenoid:

WARNING! This solenoid DOES NOT use suppression diodes. Use of this solenoid on vehicles with Engine Control Computers will result in permanent damage to the computer/processor.

as seen here...
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance-Products/555/10308/10002/-1
Im not a wiring guy and am not sure what this means. Being that I am going efi and will have a computer can someone explain this in layman's terms.

The layman's definition is: A solenoid is made up of a coil of wire and an armature. The armature is a piece of iron that moves as a result of the magnetic field the coil makes when energized. The movement of the armature operates the switch part of the solenoid. Its just a big relay. The problem comes when the solenoid is de-energized and the movement of the armature past the coil can produce a voltage spike which is seen in all the connected wiring and if the spike is large enough it can affect adjacent wires. The spike that is created will be AC voltage and most automotive electronics have no protection from AC voltage and as result are damaged. The suppression diodes are designed to control this voltage.[/QUOTE]

[lfdsteve]

What size breaker would you recomend between the battery and the starter on the 0/1 wire?
thanks
Steve

[wahmti]

Add Content

[JMitch19]

What size breaker would you recomend between the battery and the starter on the 0/1 wire?
thanks
Steve

Look up the rated load on the wire you are using then use a fuse/breaker that has a slightly lower than that. If your fuse isn't rated lower than your wire the wire will become the fuse and that will be bad. For example The wire I used is rated at 250 amps continuous. I used a 225 amp fuse.

[scottymonte]

This is a great thread, very helpful. Anyone have a picture of a suppression diode installed on a remote solenoid?

Thanks,

Scott

[lfdsteve]

So if you run the solenoid to prevent the long run of the large wire hot all the time how do you power up the rest of the front of the car and dash?
Thanks

[1969CamaroRS]

So if you run the solenoid to prevent the long run of the large wire hot all the time how do you power up the rest of the front of the car and dash?
Thanks

You can run a smaller cable, and fuse that one, since it won't be carrying the starter load.

[lfdsteve]

Can you recommend a size for that wire and fuse. This will be for a 71 Firebird. Aside from the usual load of an ac equipped car, also have a mark IIV fan from a Lincoln.
Tnx steve

[1969CamaroRS]

On my car I ran a 2 gauge wire and fused it at 150 amps. But I had the 2 gauge wire left over from a battery relocation kit. But it really depends on what you have in your car ( electric fuel pump, dual electric fans etc)?

I would try to add up your electric load and then add 20% or something and aim for that. But depends on how much you want to add later.

[jedg]

Reference the talk about the diode required for ECM equipped vehicles, I was speaking to a friend of mine about it and he stated that the late model Ford solenoids are equipped with a diode built in. Here is an example: http://www.amazon.com/Victory-Lap-F492-Starter-Solenoid/dp/B003X0Z64O

From the part description:
A 12 volt, 4-terminal solenoid with copper contact terminals, grounded base w/phenolic housing, suppression diode for protection of electronic circuits. Render mounted. Used on Ford, and other vehicles. “I”terminal is not used when replacing three terminal solenoids. Victory Lap kits fit nearly 90 percent of American made automobile and light truck starters and alternators. Plus, Victory Lap now has several kits available to repair the most popular import starters. All replacement parts of the finest parts available, meeting or exceeding OEM specifications. Each kit contains easy-to-follow, completely illustrated instructions. A great tool for the novice, do-it-yourself, student or professional mechanic. Colorful and attractive "clamshell" packaging resists damage and tampering.

[astroracer]

So if you run the solenoid to prevent the long run of the large wire hot all the time how do you power up the rest of the front of the car and dash?
Thanks
Run the alt wire to a distribution block. Pick up the charge wire to the battery here also and run at least an 8 gauge to your main power at the fuse block.
Go to Mad electrical and poke around. This is the info you really need. Tons of knowledge!
http://madelectrical.com/catalog.shtml
Mark