pro-touring leanring curve

[yellow1098Greg]

So I have had my car for about a year now and all I want is the "pro-touring" aspect of driving comfort and performance. So I spend all my free time on this site reading, watching all the build shows on HD Theater and googling for what turns into hours at a time on the internet trying to learn everything I can about how to get my ride to "where I want it to be". Now I am not in the position to just hand my car over to a builder and say give me what I want and pay 10,15,20 grand for it. So like most guys on here I am trying to go about it on the little by little side of things. Now I have the (I’m sure familiar) situation where I can buy a part here or a part there when I have that extra money once in a while.
The problem is now there are hundreds of different kinds of parts and which savings are worth it and which aren’t. Like I know I want to upgrade my suspension.. So do I get the package that is $2000 or would I get the "feel" I want out the not top name brand 499 package? How do I learn the difference in what I need? just ask someone? What I am trying to say is when it comes to a budget build to an already nice car .How do I learn the best products for the feel I’m am looking for? I don’t know if this question is to general or not…For example how would I know if I should switch to fuel injection or not? I know a lot of you on here are way past my level on knowledge and a simple question like that would seam amateurish. These types of questions and info are important to someone who is just breaking into the lifestyle, even if I have been in love with it for over a year. But im sure that is nothing. I was wondering what you guys thought was the best way to get this knowledge. I have called to inquire about wyotech, uti, and Seminole state, these are all programs that are 50 hours a week and cost 30 grand or more to someone who is already in a university and working and doesn’t nessarily want a mechanic job. I would love to take a night class here and there but those don’t seam to be offered anywhere. Now don’t get me wrong I know a good amount about cars, it’s my passion but I don’t know things I need to about building my own hot rod street machine, I need some more knowledge and even if I had the 10,15 grand to put into my car for someone else to build for me I would enjoy much more building it myself the way I want it. I know you guys can appreciate that. Any thoughts or help would be great


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[Smock67]

I would say one of the biggest things when picking out stuff for your car is being realistic in what you will ultimately do with the car. It shouldn't matter if you have the newest and latest part. Say your example of suspension, and you want to drop your car a little bit and just improve the handling overall but don't really see yourself tracking the car then there is no need to get a full coilover suspension or new front and rear subframes. You would probably be good with getting new springs and changing all your bushings and just giving it a refresh for the most part.

It really does come down to what you are realistically going to use the car for and be honest to yourself about it, there's no point (besides bragging rights) to buying some badass suspension (engine, drivetrain whatever) if you're not actually going to use it for its designed purpose. Thats just my two pennies worth.

[RF GTO]

Like you, I think many of us wrestle with the same questions. The majority of the guys on this forum are in the same boat of having to make compromises due to our budgets. My suggestion, and what has worked for me through a process of a good chunk of money as well as trial and error...create a list of things you want to do to your car. Just a list of anything and everything you'd like to do to it without even thinking about the budget. Then prioritize that list. Find what is most important to you and put it #1, then 2, 3, etc. Then slowly but surely you will work your way down the list implementing the changes. If you want it to be a fun, comfortable driver then focus on the suspension and getting it running well. Maybe do a cam swap to wake up the stock engine.

With regard to the budget parts vs. high dollar parts and which changes will give you the most bang for the buck, we've all been there and my opinion is to do it right the first time. Buy quality parts the first time (but like Smock said, don't go buying fancy parts for the sake of fancy parts). Even if you have to save up to get them. It gets really expensive when you are unsatisfied with the cheaper alternative and decide to sell it and upgrade.

It looks like you have a great foundation to start from. Cosmetically it looks great so you're ahead of the game already. You might want to try simply adding a good set of springs and some high quality shocks (Bilsteins are popular) and see how you like it. If you need more, then look into more exotic suspension mods. Engine wise - depends on what you're going after - you probably have a 400 or a 403 I assume. You could try a cam swap to wake it up and see if it satisfies you for the time being. Driveability - you may decide you really want the power and driveability of a more modern drivetrain - then you may want to save your money and step up to an LS engine and transmission swap.

That's a really long winded answer, but really it comes down to what matters most for you. When you figure out what matters most to you research the options that are available in that specific area and decide what you feel is best for how you intend to use your car.

[Scott Parkhurst]

Nothing will make a bigger impact than really good tires. Nail the wheel/tire combo and get the stance right. Add subframe connectors to eliminate flex. Get some adjustable shocks to fine-tune the ride. After that, it's all gravy. You'll have to add safety gear and you'll want more power...but get the stance and rolling stock dialed in first. Luckily, there are plenty of Second Gens that rock, so nailing the fitment shouldn't be too hard.

[Yelcamino]

Nothing will make a bigger impact than really good tires. Nail the wheel/tire combo and get the stance right. Add subframe connectors to eliminate flex. Get some adjustable shocks to fine-tune the ride. After that, it's all gravy. You'll have to add safety gear and you'll want more power...but get the stance and rolling stock dialed in first. Luckily, there are plenty of Second Gens that rock, so nailing the fitment shouldn't be too hard.

That's great advice Scott! However, IMO, if you plan to upgrade your suspension and/or brakes, I recommend you do that before you buy your wheels and tires because sometimes the suspension and/or brakes will change the front track width of the car. Now all of a sudden, the wheels and tires that fit great with the stock parts don't work so well with the shiny new parts.

[79-TA]

Avoid the pitfall of replacing the same part or set of parts over and over. Figure out what you want/need/can afford and so you can stick with it and be happy.

For instance, with my daily driver fox Mustang, I initially just upgraded the pads and rotors and ran good brake fluid. Then I decided I wanted to do a 5 lug swap with SN95 Mustang parts, which would have wasted the brake parts I already bought. I ended up just sticking with my 4 lug configuration.

[Norm Peterson]

I'm going to suggest you take your car exactly the way it sits and run a couple - or a few - autocrosses.

If you've never done that before, you may be surprised what the car can do, perhaps with just a few low-$ mods. I am assuming that it is in good mechanical condition.

Even if you have autocrossed before, you should still want to have a baseline for your mods. Not every build needs to be shooting for an invitation to the OPTIMA Ultimate Street Car Invitational from the get-go. I would pay attention to the "Run To The ?" and/or SCCA Solo rules if you're planning on being involved in these activities. For example, the RTT? events have a 200-minimum treadwear tire limitation if you're competing vs running as exhibition.


FWIW, an autocrosser's mod mantra probably goes something like "driver, tires/wheels, everything else, in that order".


Norm

[yellow1098Greg]

GTo I definitley have the list started and ya the car is in great shape cosmetically and i have a 400 that is already really warmed up with aluminum heads and bigger cam as well has headers and carb. scott i definitley wanna set the ride height and rack up with shockes and springs and but the thing with the wheels is im not sure i want the year one 17's that arent staggered and 2 piece. Im kinda thinking id rather save for there more expensive offset 2 piece wheels.
Norm...do you know anywhere near central florida where they have racing like that?

[Chad-1stGen]

I recommend you get off the site now. Put the crack pipe down! Its only downhill from here! Don't listen to people telling you how much fun that downhill slide is...

Ok back to spending money on my car.

[yellow1098Greg]

lol i know what u mean...i definitley am a full fledge attic....just trying to a good one haha

[LeighP]

OK...2nd gen Firebird...one of the best value for money suspension packages out there is the Pro-Touring F-Body (PTFB) GT kit....can be bought with or without shocks....I fitted the GT kit (with custom wound slightly raised front springs) and combined that with Koni Classic shocks.
I used PTFB subframe connectors - one of the best value and fitting ones out there. I also stepped up to adjustable front and rear PTFB sway bars - but they weren't truly "necessary" as such.
Whilst my car is not yet finished, I went off the recommendation of quite a few people who have the same set up in their cars and are very happy with it.
For brakes, I used the 1LE conversion for for 2nd gens....if interested I can explain more about that - but it gives late 3rd gen 12" discs on the front at a budget price and without big mods. At the rear, I purchased full size B body HD drum kits, gives me 11" finned drums over the original 9" ones.
I stuck with the traditional Pontiac drive train set up - 455/TH350/8.5 rear, however, everything is upgraded to handle more power.
My budget and my intended use of the car (road touring, not racing) drove my decisions about how I was going to build my car.....let your intended use and a realistic (if thats the right word, lol) budget make your decisions for you.....you'll be happier in the end.

[badazz81z28]

OK...2nd gen Firebird...one of the best value for money suspension packages out there is the Pro-Touring F-Body (PTFB) GT kit....can be bought with or without shocks....I fitted the GT kit (with custom wound slightly raised front springs) and combined that with Koni Classic shocks.
I used PTFB subframe connectors - one of the best value and fitting ones out there. I also stepped up to adjustable front and rear PTFB sway bars - but they weren't truly "necessary" as such.
Whilst my car is not yet finished, I went off the recommendation of quite a few people who have the same set up in their cars and are very happy with it.
For brakes, I used the 1LE conversion for for 2nd gens....if interested I can explain more about that - but it gives late 3rd gen 12" discs on the front at a budget price and without big mods. At the rear, I purchased full size B body HD drum kits, gives me 11" finned drums over the original 9" ones.
I stuck with the traditional Pontiac drive train set up - 455/TH350/8.5 rear, however, everything is upgraded to handle more power.
My budget and my intended use of the car (road touring, not racing) drove my decisions about how I was going to build my car.....let your intended use and a realistic (if thats the right word, lol) budget make your decisions for you.....you'll be happier in the end.

How does your car run with the GT kit? . One thing I can agree to as suggested already to the OP is buy stuff once! Don't be cheap (if you dont have to)...trying to save a few bucks is how I got burned. The important thing is we have fun, but doing like you have (watching videos/reading post), the majority that have wicked cars run DSE/Hotchkis/Heidts/ etc..that says something...it works.

[yellow1098Greg]

ya i understand the buy it once way of going about it.....i definitley plan on doing that.....the simple knowledge of what parts to buy and what each of them are for specifically... is for me the beginners type of knowledge that i need. like which of the different suspension packages will give me the ride im looking for. or "fuel injection is cool, but do i want that". Those are the kinds of questions i ask myself all the time. I know which brands are the high end brands and would obviously like to go that way. just knowing what parts i want and how to have them work together. Is the question. I would like the car to be as good as it can be is my answer to whats it intended use is. sounds vague but i want it to be fast in the quater (high 11's low 12's ) and handle well enough to drive it on a road course and be soild, while still being comfortable enough to drive around town with good AC. Comfortable enough to one day do powertour type stuff. Probably sounds a bit optimistic but i see those kinds of cars all the time while feeding my addiction. (here,tv,magazines) :) Even if it takes a long time cause of budget thats my vision

[Norm Peterson]

GTo Norm...do you know anywhere near central florida where they have racing like that?
cfrsolo2.com should find the autocrosses.

I think the closest RT?? events would be Run To Music City (Nashville, which has already been run) and Run Through The Hills (Pigeon Forge, TN, may be sold out though). Check here (https://www.pro-touring.com/forumdisplay.php?64-Racing-Events-amp-Performance-Reports).


Norm

[Gitter Dun]

It sounds like you want to get the best set up for the money but do it on a budget. The best way to do that is to talk to guy's that have the same car that you do.

It also sounds like you want to take some classes to learn how to install. Education and gaining knowledge is always a great thing but the beauty of most the suspension systems out there is that they are direct bolt on and come with directions.

I know nothing about 2nd gen Firebirds but my guess is that your front suspension geometry probably needs some work. I would start there. Once that feels comfortable work on your brake system.

Like I said, I know nothing about 2nd gen Firebirds so your best bet is to talk to people that have already been through the trials and tribulations of working on one.

Sounds like Leigh has been down this road already and has built his car to run pretty well and it also sounds like he put a decent brake package together for the money he spent. He is a perfect example of the guy's you want to talk to.

[OLDFLM]

These cars are a big step ahead of the earlier generation F cars in handling and drivability. Their bumpsteer is comparable overall with a 2002 and their geometry isn`t too bad at all, just too mild. They respond very well to a more performance oriented alignment too. First step make sure all the boring, normal stuff is in good shape. Subframe bushings, tie rod ends, etc. and bring them up to par.

Next, as mentioned above, subframe connectors. Solid subframe bushings are also a good idea. Now springs and shocks. Matched front and rear springs from a reputable company OR make the decision to upgrade the rear leafs to a link/coil over conversion... Don`t skimp on the shocks! I know it`s tempting but don't do it! At least stock replacement Bilsteins or Koni Reds for a "driving around car" and adjustable shocks are a real nice upgrade if the budget allows. Good shocks are worth every penny and more!

Geometry and alignment, the stock geometry is okay but very mild. A Street/Comp package really punches up the geometry as well as allowing for a lot more alignment adjustment. Guys are pulling over 1G at less than 2* of body roll (on DOT tires) with Street/Comp equipped 2nd gens! Dial it all in with a good alignment, shoot for -1/2* camber and +5.5* caster. 1/8" total toe in or 1/16" if you like the car a little more responsive.

Last step, tune with swaybars. With good front geometry a huge front bar isn`t necessary for a street car. If the car pushes a little try a rear bar. If it`s loose try a larger front one. Don`t spend money on bars until the car's together in it's more or less final configuration. You can't tune what you haven't driven yet.

Bells and whistles, these are mostly tuning aids and misc. cool stuff. Front coilovers, a custom Lee or AGR steering box, tubular lower A arms, underhood bracing, etc. If you choose well they can really enhance the performance and give you more tuning options but get the big stuff done first and you`ll be better off unless you can afford to do a whole bunch of stuff all at once.

Initially, you could get by as cheaply as just doing springs to get the stance/shocks to improve ride quality/and big sways... should already have WS6 spec sways front and rear but if not they are readily available. I'd recommend a PST front end rebuild kit to make sure everything is tight, springs/shocks, and upgrade the brakes/wheels and stop there. Drive that for a while, do some autocross events and then decide if you wants to go to the next step.

[Norm Peterson]

i want it to be fast in the quater (high 11's low 12's ) and handle well enough to drive it on a road course and be soild, while still being comfortable enough to drive around town with good AC.
For those sort of dragstrip numbers, I'd concentrate on the cornering & handling and let the power take care of the straightline stuff. Plan on running an OD transmission of some sort with axle gearing chosen to suit your use (hint: autocross use suggests being able to hit 65 mph or a little more in 2nd gear in order to avoid having to shift more than once on all but the very fastest course layouts).

The current GT500 Mustang is supposedly at that level, on real street tires (not drag radials) and an OE suspension (http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1005_2011_ford_shelby_gt500_drive/). In fact, that car might be a good target to shoot for, if nothing else than providing an idea of what it takes to get there vs what you may not really need in terms of power, wheels, tires, gearing, and maybe a few other things.


Norm

[fletcherscustoms]

You guys are saying all that I would say also!! I agree start with the minor mechanical aspects first, replacing what WORN OUT!! Tie rods, pitman arms, bushings, etc, etc. I am firm believer in the higher grade parts, mainly cause you know they will hold up. DSE, Speedtech, BMR (my favorite) and others. Yeah the $500 ebay arms look just like every other tubular arm on the market, but I don't trust them at all!! As Ty said shocks are great first upgrade, along with a set of matched and correct spring. A nice set of AFCO (my favorite coilover) can be added with springs to the front the of car for no much more than a name brand set of shocks and coil springs. Rear is pretty simple, a good set of Hotchkis leafs can get you running with a just about anyone. Then there are options like my personal setup the BMR torque arm rear setup, to DSE 4-link. Thehobby comes down to how big your pocket book and honestly how big your EGO is , cause a lot of the lower price options work just as good as the very high price options, but some folks got to spend the most.

Give me a call or email anytime, I am dealer for just about anything in the world for these cars. I personally track and drive a 71 camaro, have built a couple other second gens, and am currently building a very high end Art Morrison equipped 77 T/A. And I have sold tons of product for the second gen cars. So I know what works and what doesn't. My email and phone number or listed below.

[yellow1098Greg]

wow...tons of great information...im literally next to my computer with a pen and new notepad making a list. gonna start ordering asap. chad ill give u call...and yes i do wanna learn via some classes but the problem is also i cant find any around. thank you all for all that detailed info...OLDflm i think i learned double about suspensions just from reading your post...thanks again everyone!!

[badazz81z28]

Great points made. Like Fletcher mentioned, some lower cost parts are just as good as the higher priced ones, BUT! Do you want to be the test subject? Like suggested stick with a reputable company like DSE, Hotchkis etc as they sell complete kits which all the parts are designed to work together and have been track tested. I have more confidence in my parts, when very successful racers use them. I know first hand how lower priced parts can be tempting, but you will kick yourself later. I'm like you and didnt have alot of knowledge on the subject, so I stuck with the crowd. PTFB does sells budget suspension parts, but I feel the durability isnt quite there and FWIW I didnt see any of their parts on any F-body at the Autocross I went to. If you want to go lower cost route Tamraz and JC whitney have you covered.

[406 Q-ship]

I recommend you get off the site now. Put the crack pipe down! Its only downhill from here! Don't listen to people telling you how much fun that downhill slide is...

Ok back to spending money on my car.

Ok whos turn is it to give Chad the little white pills?


Set a goal of what you really want the car to do and try to avoid "scope drift" (good luck with that!). If you want a fun daily driver, then a good set of wheels/Tires and a solid rebuilt suspension......the suspension is rebuilt, right? Always start by rebuilding the suspension to get the most results from the parts you will install, you would be suprised how many will put expensive parts on a wore out car and get agree when it doesn't work (or tears up worn out pieces). Then a mild spring drop all four corners, with a good set of shocks. The swaybars (1 1/4" front) on your F-body should be about the best that is available (don't believe the hipe from the manufactures). This will give you a very nice driver that can be run on a twisty road or a auto-X. If you want a more track or serious handling Trans Am (it will scrafice some ride quality...no free lunch), then go for a much higher rate of springs, aggressive alignment, adjustable shocks, subframe connectors (this would be a get addition to the driver too), and stickier tires that push the limits of the wheelwells. I would not necessarily go for tubular control arms for the 2nd gen F-body, the geometry is excellent in that chassis and there is little to be gained without going with something like the DSE subframe clip.

When I worked at Guldstands back in the late 1980's, we would put in 650-700 front spring (with a 1" drop from stock height), rear spring was a WS6 (175 lbs if I remember correctly) the had a 1" drop too, a set of Bilsteins, we REMOVED the stock rear swaybar, and installed the 1 1/4" Trans Am front swaybar (your car should have that already). Then a set of 16 X 8 wheels with Gatorbacks (it was the 1980's). Alignment specs were -1/4° camber, +3.5° Caster, and 1/8 - 3/16 toe in on a street driver. For a someone who would push the suspension hard the Camber would go up as high as -3/4°, you learn to read the tires to see what the car and driver want.

[LeighP]

How does your car run with the GT kit? . One thing I can agree to as suggested already to the OP is buy stuff once! Don't be cheap (if you dont have to)...trying to save a few bucks is how I got burned. The important thing is we have fun, but doing like you have (watching videos/reading post), the majority that have wicked cars run DSE/Hotchkis/Heidts/ etc..that says something...it works.

Car is getting ready to send for exhaust and paint...so it'll probalby be early next year before I know personally how it handles....had lots of feedback from other 2nd gen owners who really like the GT kit, though.

I'm running stock A arms with tall ball joints to increase the neg camber gain in compression....I haven't switched to tubular arms for two reasons (budget and local registration laws - don't want any hassles getting a roadworth inpsection done), but if you go tubular arms, I'd stick to a package of upper and lower arms designed to give you more initial caster without moving the wheel centreline forward as it would if you use just a lower arm to give you more caster.
I'd love to run the BMR torque arm rear kit, but I'll stick with the PTFB leafs for a while and drive it...see how it feels. The BMR rear is an upgrade that can be added relatively easily and the good leafs sold to recoupe some of the outlay...so its not a total loss situation with initiall running leaf springs from PTFB or Hotchkiss etc. Something like the DSE quaralink is flat out beautiful engineering, but the install and purchase cost etc is higher than the BMR would be by a long shot...again, use and budget should be your guideline, not necessarily the name brand or the stuff that the BIG dollar cars are running.

[Ripped]

Read read read, goto shows and events. Talk to owners, and get an idea, what is right for you.

You've got a lot of good advise here already.

Street car? Track? The more extreme you go, the more you risk breaking parts. The more you try and squeeze out of your engine, could make it a PITA on the street.

You need to check out the vintage race guys. Rules often limit moderinzation of the car chassis or suspension, but often there are some real good inexpensive mods, you can make, and adapt to your ride.

Good luck

[badazz81z28]

Car is getting ready to send for exhaust and paint...so it'll probalby be early next year before I know personally how it handles....had lots of feedback from other 2nd gen owners who really like the GT kit, though.

I'm running stock A arms with tall ball joints to increase the neg camber gain in compression....I haven't switched to tubular arms for two reasons (budget and local registration laws - don't want any hassles getting a roadworth inpsection done), but if you go tubular arms, I'd stick to a package of upper and lower arms designed to give you more initial caster without moving the wheel centreline forward as it would if you use just a lower arm to give you more caster.
I'd love to run the BMR torque arm rear kit, but I'll stick with the PTFB leafs for a while and drive it...see how it feels. The BMR rear is an upgrade that can be added relatively easily and the good leafs sold to recoupe some of the outlay...so its not a total loss situation with initiall running leaf springs from PTFB or Hotchkiss etc. Something like the DSE quaralink is flat out beautiful engineering, but the install and purchase cost etc is higher than the BMR would be by a long shot...again, use and budget should be your guideline, not necessarily the name brand or the stuff that the BIG dollar cars are running .


Oh yes! If money was only limitless we would all have $100K cars ;)

[79-TA]

It's been said before, but I'll reiterate. Before you jump the gun and start ordering parts, take your car out to an autocross to get an idea of what it (and you) can do.

The front subframe braces or "G bars" from Pro-Touring F body will likely do more to stiffen your car than subframe connectors. (though you should eventually get both)

[Hotchkis]

Hey all - Thanks for the great words about our products.


Yellow1098 - Mary Pozzi and Carl Casanova have proven that Hotchkis suspension components (including leaf springs) will allow you to be very competitive with a few wins under their belts. With mostly simple bolt-on products you can out-handle the competition.

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As a few have pointed out, it wouldn't hurt one bit to go get some driver instruction and experience out at an autocross event or on a track day. The education will do wonders!

[yellow1098Greg]

wow thanks everyone for all the great info and ideas...... and Hotchkis suspension components are definitley something i plan on doing asap :)