Perspective is a funny thing

[NJSPEEDER]

Got to watch the NASCAR race today and there was an absolutely fantastic wreck at the end of the race. You can find it on YouTube if you didn't catch it on SporstCenter.

What I think is funny is that people in the NASCAR community are talking about how Boris Said was completely at fault and all of the sports car/road racing forums seem to have fallen on the side of blaming Greg Biffle.

My perspective is that it was a racing wreck. Boris is all the way to the edge of the track and Greg starts moving over, they didn't hit by much so I am guessing that Biffle thought he was clear.

What I think is really lighting the fire on this thing is the way both drivers handled themselves after the race. Biffle and some of his larger crew showed up at Said's car before he could get out and there was much swearing and finger wagging. Then Boris gets out of the car and basically bull rushes at Biffle's crew while projecting what I would imagine were similar kind thoughts. Both driver's then went on to scold one another in the press and now it is just getting funny.

The funniest bit of all to me is that much of the NASCAR crowd insults Boris for not being good enough for NASCAR and such but at the moment of the wreck Mr. Biffle was actually 2 full laps behind Mr Said. lol

Anyone else who saw it have an opinion?

-Tim

[Mr. Anderson]

I am generally not a NASCAR fan, but I also have yet to set tire on a road course so I'm not sure what would have been proper etiquette here.

But its looks to me like Boris was at fault. If the guy in front of you is taking a wider line (whether he's on the same lap or not), you don't take turn to the inside if you aren't clear of him...which is what looks like happened.

Personally....NASCAR should stick to circle tracks. Yes, they bore me...but none of these guys or the cars are meant to be on a road course. It feels awkward.

[shortrack]

Got to watch the NASCAR race today and there was an absolutely fantastic wreck at the end of the race.

Anyone else who saw it have an opinion?

-Tim

I hope you dont mean "fantastic" like in good....one totaled $200,000 race car and another seriously used up I dont find "fantastic" at all....."wild" crash yes.

looked like a racing accident to me.....apparently most of what happened between Said and Biffle was due to some prior incident at a different track.

[shortrack]

Personally....NASCAR should stick to circle tracks. Yes, they bore me...but none of these guys or the cars are meant to be on a road course. It feels awkward.

I love Nascar on a road course (but I am Biased) see those guys go through the inner loop? four wheel drift with the inside front wheel in the air, you can SEE those guys driving the s hit out of those cars all over the track love it!!.....and geeze they have enough guys that they dont have to have two races on the track at the same time!

And "none of those guys are meant to be on a road course"??.....your kidding me.....sure a regular who grew up a road racer won the race by what? a couple of car lengths??....ok fine, but if none of "those guys were meant to be on a road course" then why wasnt the top ten filled with road course "ringers"...where was Said, Montoya, Fellows, PJ Jones and the rest of them???......nowhere in sight of the lead

[Mr. Anderson]

None of the "regular guys", who run a full season. I am not talking about the substitute drivers. And those drivers can only do the best with the car they are given. Turn that NASCAR into a GT1 or GT2 car and they'd run circles. When it comes to Nascar, half of these teams substitute drivers for the road courses. If the guy who gets the championship at the end of the season can't compete in every race and do well then it's a farce. These teams have to have a whole car (or two) developed and purposed for no more than two (three? I don't know) races for the year. I know they have numerous cars for the circle tracks but their comfort zone is not on a track that has right hand turns. Their time and money could be better spent on what they know. If they got rid of the road races, it wouldn't be an issue. This isn't a left turn verses road course argument, I have nothing against nascar...but I think they need to stick to what they know. I wouldn't be interested in a Formula 1 race at Daytona (Speedway) either.

The x-games and rally guys that are trying to filter into nascar are finding out how hard it is and not doing so well. Opposite circumstances but the same holds true.

[intocarss]

Here's a link to see the last lap crash

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3WjLJpmXZY

[shortrack]

None of the "regular guys", who run a full season. I am not talking about the substitute drivers. And those drivers can only do the best with the car they are given. Turn that NASCAR into a GT1 or GT2 car and they'd run circles. When it comes to Nascar, half of these teams substitute drivers for the road courses. If the guy who gets the championship at the end of the season can't compete in every race and do well then it's a farce. These teams have to have a whole car (or two) developed and purposed for no more than two (three? I don't know) races for the year. I know they have numerous cars for the circle tracks but their comfort zone is not on a track that has right hand turns. Their time and money could be better spent on what they know. If they got rid of the road races, it wouldn't be an issue. This isn't a left turn verses road course argument, I have nothing against nascar...but I think they need to stick to what they know. I wouldn't be interested in a Formula 1 race at Daytona (Speedway) either.

The x-games and rally guys that are trying to filter into nascar are finding out how hard it is and not doing so well. Opposite circumstances but the same holds true.

"Half of these teams substitute drivers for the road courses.....''

Half eh?.....really.....heres qualifying for the race.....I have to get all the way down to 15th with Boris Said to find the first non Cup regular, the next is TJ Bell in 34th!!, Ranger in 35th, believe it or not Andy Lally has tried to qualify for several oval Cup races this year so I will count him as a regular, next is Ron Fellows in 38th and two of the three non qualifiers are non regulars with Brian Simo and PJ Jones.....so we have a grand total of 4 non Cup regulars in the field of 42...not really half the field eh?.....and with the possible exception of Said very much concentrated towards the BOTTOM of the grid......do you still think that Nascar is a "farce"?......you seem like a nice guy but honestly sir your generalizations about Nascar are about 10 or more years out of date.

1. #18 Kyle Busch Toyota 69.767s (Leader) 126.421mph
2. #43 AJ Allmendinger Ford 69.977s (-0.210) 126.041mph
3. #9 Marcos Ambrose Ford 70.009s (-0.242) 125.984mph
4. #48 Jimmie Johnson Chevrolet 70.188s (-0.421) 125.662mph
5. #42 Juan Montoya Chevrolet 70.193s (-0.426) 125.654mph
6. #39 Ryan Newman Chevrolet 70.383s (-0.616) 125.314mph
7. #14 Tony Stewart Chevrolet 70.426s (-0.659) 125.238mph
8. #99 Carl Edwards Ford 70.446s (-0.679) 125.202mph
9. #56 Martin Truex Jr. Toyota 70.578s (-0.811) 124.968mph
10. #78 Regan Smith Chevrolet 70.594s (-0.827) 124.940mph
11. #47 Bobby Labonte Toyota 70.608s (-0.841) 124.915mph
12. #2 Brad Keselowski Dodge 70.612s (-0.845) 124.908mph
13. #20 Joey Logano Toyota 70.614s (-0.847) 124.904mph
14. #1 Jamie McMurray Chevrolet 70.678s (-0.911) 124.791mph
15. #51 Boris Said Chevrolet 70.729s (-0.962) 124.701mph
16. #6 David Ragan Ford 70.815s (-1.048) 124.550mph
17. #24 Jeff Gordon Chevrolet 70.871s (-1.104) 124.451mph
18. #4 Kasey Kahne Toyota 71.130s (-1.363) 123.998mph
19. #33 Clint Bowyer Chevrolet 71.213s (-1.446) 123.854mph
20. #83 Brian Vickers Toyota 71.312s (-1.545) 123.682mph
21. #87 Joe Nemechek Toyota 71.323s (-1.556) 123.663mph
22. #5 Mark Martin Chevrolet 71.339s (-1.572) 123.635mph
23. #29 Kevin Harvick Chevrolet 71.407s (-1.640) 123.517mph
24. #17 Matt Kenseth Ford 71.413s (-1.646) 123.507mph
25. #88 Dale Earnhardt Jr. Chevrolet 71.431s (-1.664) 123.476mph
26. #13 Casey Mears Toyota 71.443s (-1.676) 123.455mph
27. #22 Kurt Busch Dodge 71.454s (-1.687) 123.436mph
28. #16 Greg Biffle Ford 71.456s (-1.689) 123.433mph
29. #37 Scott Speed Ford 71.487s (-1.720) 123.379mph
30. #55 J.J. Yeley Ford 71.543s (-1.776) 123.283mph
31. #7 Robby Gordon Dodge 71.605s (-1.838) 123.176mph
32. #27 Paul Menard Chevrolet 71.733s (-1.966) 122.956mph
33. #66 Michael McDowell Toyota 71.733s (-1.966) 122.956mph
34. #150 T.J. Bell* Chevrolet 71.749s (-1.982) 122.928mph
35. #32 Andrew Ranger Ford 72.075s (-2.308) 122.372mph
36. #71 Andy Lally* Ford 72.179s (-2.412) 122.196mph
37. #60 Mike Skinner Toyota 72.218s (-2.451) 122.130mph
38. #36 Ron Fellows Chevrolet 72.299s (-2.532) 121.993mph
39. #00 David Reutimann Toyota 72.497s (-2.730) 121.660mph
40. #31 Jeff Burton Chevrolet 72.641s (-2.874) 121.419mph
41. #34 David Gilliland Ford 73.293s (-3.526) 120.339mph
42. #11 Denny Hamlin+ Toyota No time
43. #38 Terry Labonte Ford Champion's Provisional

Did Not Qualify

44. #135 Dave Blaney Chevrolet 72.352s (-2.585) 121.904mph
45. #46 Brian Simo Ford 73.937s (-4.170) 119.291mph
46. #177 PJ Jones Dodge No time

+ Set by Owner Points
* Denotes Rookie

[Mr. Anderson]

It has been about 10 years since I stopped paying any attention to NASCAR so I apologize for being so far off with that statement. I didn't realize things had changed there.

I really am a nice guy :-)

However the last half of my post which you are not responding to still stands in my opinion.

[NJSPEEDER]

[QUOTE=shortrack;827806]I hope you dont mean "fantastic" like in good....one totaled $200,000 race car and another seriously used up I dont find "fantastic" at all....."wild" crash yes.[QUOTE]


Looking back on it I am sure there are better word choices that could have been used. If nothing else the wreck was a massive statement about how far the safety of cup cars has come in the last 10 years or less


I am by no means a NASCAR fan, equipment or the sanction, but I will acknowledge that there is a very specialized skill to the form of racing. It is the ability to hang a car at 10/10ths lap after lap. The equipment and talent at the pointing end of stock car racing are so close that it is the finest finishing points that really make the difference in who wins or loses.

-Tim

[moreHP]

I will say that those cars are very well built to have a crash like that and then the guy gets out of it under his own power! That was quite a crash! That looked expensive and I doubt there was many usable parts on that car after.
But the guys who had the roadrage (racerage?) caused some poor guy to wipe out his car who wasnt a part of that sure does suck.

[Ron.in.SoCal]

I am by no means a NASCAR fan, equipment or the sanction, but I will acknowledge that there is a very specialized skill to the form of racing. It is the ability to hang a car at 10/10ths lap after lap. The equipment and talent at the pointing end of stock car racing are so close that it is the finest finishing points that really make the difference in who wins or loses.

-Tim

Well said Tim. I agree with your sentiment and actually watched not only Rolex Grand AM at the Glen on Sat but also Nascar qualifying. BTW, AJ Almondinger was at the Grand AM race, and then went out and stole the pole in qualifying from his teammate who is a roadcourse specialist. Anyway, in qualifying these cars were a handfull! And that course is awesome! From the 'busstop' to the the last two S turns, they were hanging it all the way out to get a good starting position (as usual), but barely in control. So I was really looking forward to the race, which of course got rained out and I missed the Monday broadcast.

[BuzzKillian]

Looked like 2 guys going for the same spot on the last lap. The accident was unfortunate albeit spectacular. I am really glad no was seriously hurt.
As far as these guys belonging on a road course... 43 cars, 3400 lbs., 850+ HP, on approx. 10" slicks... If that doesn't put a smile on your face, I'm afraid you're not a car guy. :poke:

[HarleyR]

Perspective is a funny thing... Especially when people try to talk about something they have no clue about... 99% of race fans dont cut NASCAR any slack simply because they do not grasp it.

[shortrack]

However the last half of my post which you are not responding to still stands in my opinion.

which part??

[454bug]

By the way, Greg Biffle had nothing to do with that crash... He was not even involved in it. As stated, he was two laps down and was tailing this group a couple of hundred yards back. He watched it all happen to his teammate, David Regan. He jumped on Boris in the pits because he saw how he made this wreck happen and he wanted to make sure Boris knew what he thought about his inability to compete and how he seems to take out those frustrations on the cars that are competing around him. He has done this race after race he competes in... He bullies his way around the track even though you would envision a true road racer as a finesse guy! Boris did the same thing to Greg Biffle last year and when Greg watched his teammate get the same treatment from Boris, he made sure he let Boris know what he thought of him. :box:

[shortrack]

Larry Mac had this to say about the incident on Trackside last night and I tend to agree.....he said "Boris Said is not a Cup regular so when he comes to a race he comes to do one thing...win...I get that....but in this case he was NOT in a position to win (what was he running? like 36th position on the last lap?) so when your around a potential Chase contender (David Ragan) GIVE HIM SOME SLACK!".....and he didnt say anything about the unfortunate David Reutimann....

Ive had a chance to check the vid several times and yes Ray in the vid above Biffle is in the 16 Valvoline car trailing the field by a hundred yards or so and is the car slowing almost to a stop and picking his way through the wreckage so he saw the whole thing

[NJSPEEDER]

Perspective is a funny thing... Especially when people try to talk about something they have no clue about... 99% of race fans dont cut NASCAR any slack simply because they do not grasp it.

I think you can give racing fans a lot more credit than that. I don't cut NASCAR any slack because for all their claims of being this and that and so advanced and everything else they are really just carb'ed small blocks in an old pick up truck frame.

There really isn't anything ground breaking about NASCAR to "grasp". It can be entertaining, but entertaining doesn't automatically mean it is in any way too advanced or too complicated for fans of other forms of racing to understand.

-Tim

[shortrack]

they are really just carb'ed small blocks in an old pick up truck frame.

Tim

And the NFL is really the same as the neighbor kids playing football down at the park.....

[SS PUNISHER]

I think you can give racing fans a lot more credit than that. I don't cut NASCAR any slack because for all their claims of being this and that and so advanced and everything else they are really just carb'ed small blocks in an old pick up truck frame.

There really isn't anything ground breaking about NASCAR to "grasp". It can be entertaining, but entertaining doesn't automatically mean it is in any way too advanced or too complicated for fans of other forms of racing to understand.

-Tim
BAHAHAHAH ha!!! It's obviously way over your head if you honestly feel this way about...........

[Trevon]

A good crash? I may check that out. I absolutely cannot tolerate nascar anymore...nothing about it is the National Association of STOCK CAR Auto racing. It started with cars pretty much straight from the dealer, now its only mechanically identical billboards driving around.

Gimme some F1 (at least its fun to watch) and especially touring car racing, that's where the real racing is.

[NJSPEEDER]

And the NFL is really the same as the neighbor kids playing football down at the park.....

I oversimplified to make my point, but with everything being so spec'ed there really isn't room for them to do anything ground breaking any more. Even the power they make is so capped that when NASCAR dyno's the cars if anyone has made an advancement that gives them an advantage the sanction comes in and takes it away.

NASCAR could advance itself a lot by getting back to at least being silhouettes of the cars that the stickers say they are and giving a lot more latitude with the drive trains and power plants.

On the big tracks they even specify what spring rates and compression damping the shocks have. That is absolutely absurd!!!

Like I said, it can make for some exciting racing, but the rules have them so tied up they aren't making any advancements that will ever make it to the streets. That is why so much manufacturer money has found it's way back to sports car racing, because things developed there actually have the potential to be pertinent in real world street cars.

If anybody wants to see some real fun check out ASA stock cars. They mostly run ovals too but they also turn them loose on dirt twice a year. Now that is some exciting stuff.

-Tim

[shortrack]

I oversimplified to make my point, but with everything being so spec'ed there really isn't room for them to do anything ground breaking any more. Even the power they make is so capped that when NASCAR dyno's the cars if anyone has made an advancement that gives them an advantage the sanction comes in and takes it away.

NASCAR could advance itself a lot by getting back to at least being silhouettes of the cars that the stickers say they are and giving a lot more latitude with the drive trains and power plants.

On the big tracks they even specify what spring rates and compression damping the shocks have. That is absolutely absurd!!!

Like I said, it can make for some exciting racing, but the rules have them so tied up they aren't making any advancements that will ever make it to the streets. That is why so much manufacturer money has found it's way back to sports car racing, because things developed there actually have the potential to be pertinent in real world street cars.

If anybody wants to see some real fun check out ASA stock cars. They mostly run ovals too but they also turn them loose on dirt twice a year. Now that is some exciting stuff.

-Tim

Ok - First thing many people need to know and Nascar is right up front with it is that they are in the entertainment business, not in business for the advancement of the automobile...in their mind their competition for your entertainment dollar is the NFL, the NBA, the PGA etc.....they want the races to be decided on the track by the drivers not won by one teams superior car (that theory has been put to the test in recent years by Jimmie Johnson however haha).....many people say why dont they have fuel injection (they do now) and why dont they have carbon brakes and on and on and on.....they way they look at it is.....ok, we could do that but its going to drive the cost of racing up for our teams but is it going to improve the show???......and that approach of keeping costs down is one of many reasons why in the slow economic times we have now there are FORTY THREE cars on the grid every week.....not two races on the track at the same time.....hey, you said yourself, it makes for exciting racing!

Oh and the ASA touring series, I think thats what you're referring to, the one that spawned Rusty Wallace, Mark Martin. Alan Kulwicki etc...has been gone since 2004....out of business. There still is ASA but its a blanket sanctioning body for tracks that run conventional Late Models. They run under the ASA banner to standardize rules, payouts etc, that is still going.....but the ASA Touring Series, like how Sprint Cup goes to Martinsville one week then then Richmond the next then Talladega etc......yeah gone since 2004.

[k5warwagon]

I think you can give racing fans a lot more credit than that. I don't cut NASCAR any slack because for all their claims of being this and that and so advanced and everything else they are really just carb'ed small blocks in an old pick up truck frame.

There really isn't anything ground breaking about NASCAR to "grasp". It can be entertaining, but entertaining doesn't automatically mean it is in any way too advanced or too complicated for fans of other forms of racing to understand.

-Tim

I would like to see anyone on this forum take their 850 hp 3400lb "stock" car (camaro, nova, chevelle...whatever) with a cage of course, and go run what these guys do in their carb'd small block cars with truck frames. Heck I'd even give you 15 seconds a lap for "areo" issues. You can't do it. If you could you be would racing in some of the other series mentioned or maybe even running in the bland, boring and low on technology NASCAR circuit.
I'm building an '87 C10 truck and I am converting it to truck arms. Just cause it's cool!

[HarleyR]

Ive found this debate is pointless......

[shmoov69]

And the NFL is really the same as the neighbor kids playing football down at the park.....

True...true!!! Lol

Honestly, NASCAR or whatever, these guys are GOOD. Period. They are there because they are good! Even the "shoe in" big money boys are GOOD. They can do things with cars that I would say 99% of the people on this board could only dream of.
NFL, MLB, PGA, NBA....those guys ARE at the top of their game and waaaay better than 99.9% of people. That is why they are there....just like the NASCAR boys!

Edit, I just watched the Boris Said interview after the race, THAT was awesome!! LOL