odd-ball efi idea

[gen3bu]

i remember reading an article a few years ago about an engine that turbo city built. i think it was a 383 sbc, small cam (200-220 duration @ .050), headers and a dual carb intake with 2 gm 220 throttle bodies(87-95 gm truck). both tbi's were for a 350 cid stock motor. they burnt a number of chips on the engine dyno to lean it out and it ended up making @ 410 hp @ 5500 and 450 tq from 2000-4500, if memory serves me correctly.

i want to build an engine similar to this for my daily driven 1993 sonoma, and add a nos plate under each adapter plate (100-150 hp each).

has anyone else seen this article? i cant remember what mag it was. i have done searches on aol, a few mags and looked around on turbocity.com.

if you have any info and/or a dual carb sbc manifold to sell please reply.

thanks
kevin

[KacyZ28]

ive always wanted to see a tpi in a truck they make great low end torque for haulin and stump pullin

[gen3bu]

i just sold my tpi setup. i needed a diff a/c bracket, fuel pump, lines, etc,etc...
yes the tpi makes great low wnd but it is limited above 4500rpm with more than 350 cid. what i am talking about is tbi x 2 = tpi tq and carb hp - i hope.

[Kenova]

I've seen a similar setup on a tunnel ram. Everything he used for the install came from Turbo City. I think it was mostly harness and prom chip.
Ken

[Lowend]

The tunnel ram does make a nice fuel injection manifold, BUT not with a TBI style setup.
TBI throttle bodies have in the injectors inside of them which will expose the same problem all Tunnel Rams have... fuel puddling on the walls.

You need to run a conventional downdraft style TB and plumb the injectors into bungs near the intake port.

[Zefhix]

*psssttt*
we're running a dual quad TBI setup on our full-roller 468BBC with the edelbrock low-rise 4x2 manifold. I think it's cool as hell...I'll tell you what, if any, problems we run into.
*but don't tell anyone*

:firefire:

[gen3bu]

got pics?

[Zefhix]

got pics?

shortly. It's in SoCal getting finished and Andy (posts here as Fuelie Fan) is doing the ECM.

The motor will be here this weekend and then I should be getting the whole setup back shortly after

[Fuelie Fan]

we just prototyped the dual quad TB setup on a big block and made just shy of 500hp. And, our billet adapters make it look really sweet. It'll be on a new TV show this fall or winter, about the same time Keith is showing his setup at SEMA. I'll see if I can get pics

[Zefhix]

we just prototyped the dual quad TB setup on a big block and made just shy of 500hp. And, our billet adapters make it look really sweet. It'll be on a new TV show this fall or winter, about the same time Keith is showing his setup at SEMA. I'll see if I can get pics

Nice Andy...Ken was telling me about that! I want pics for my website as well with a web link.... Ooops, I said you posted as Injection Logic...fixed that! I hope you guys are still banking on my car for advertisting as we plan on making some noise with it! With our custom grind full roller setup I hope to be in the neighborhood of 600HP :eek:

[gen3bu]

my plans are dual 454 tbi's with tbi to 4 bbl adapters, and dual 4 bbl nitrous plates on a 383. either a cross ram intake or the offenhuaser low rise dual quad intake. motor should make 400-430 hp, and then add 100-300 worth of juice. should be good for a daily driver pick up truck!!!

still looking for an intake. talked to turbo city on the phone last night and he said my cam is way too big for a tbi motor even if it is a 383. they did use the offy dual quad low rise and 2 350 tbi's. he think the article was in super chevy @ 4 years ago.

any subscribers with back issues laying around?

thanks
kevin

[Fuelie Fan]

Without nitrous, I would agree with them that you would want the the small block throttle bodies. the 300 shot changes things though! Just realize that around town you may have slightly non-linear throttle response (hard to modulate 1300 cfm), which depending on your tastes can be annoying or fun as heck.

As for the cam comment...technically if a carb can handle it, so can tbi, becuase they're delivering fuel in a very similar manner. They just don't want to have to try and do the tech support and/or calibrate it remotely, becuase large cams can take a lot of time to get right with efi.

Edelbrock makes small block dual quad intakes.

Overall, what you are describing is certainly doable, but just different enough that you should have someone on your side that is above average with EFI (maybe you meet that requirement yourself?) to get it dialed in. I wouldn't try to mail-order it.

[gen3bu]

i am just trying to find more info on the whole setup. someone esle did it apparently not to its full potential though. i was told that they made it idle and tuned it for wot. i think it had more left in it had they looked for it. the truck runs pretty good with my custom roller cam(220/231 @ .050, .542/.542, 114lca) i agree it is big for a speed density efi system but in @ 30 minutes i had it idling smoothly at 750 rpm(with solid motor mounts) and pulling @ 14-15 in hg, on a stock prom it pulled 8-9 in hg. it went from running 14.3@95 1/4 mile et's to 13.70@101, and it went from 15 mpg to 21+.

i think there is a lot more left in my combo but i want more. isn't that how it always goes though, hahahahahahaha.
kevin

[Fuelie Fan]

that cam doesn't sound too extreme to me in a 383, especially with the wide lobes. sounds like you've already made impressive gains. What is on it currently? TBI?

[gen3bu]

355, 9.8:1, 'k' motor heads (port/polish by me), 2.02/1.60 valves, hyd roller, rev kit, performed 4 barrel with egr, sniper nos kit, custom 1.25" thick tbi to holley adapter, single 1995 454 tbi and injectors.
ran 12.9@106 with a 100 shot on dot tires

does anyone know if a cross ram will fit under a stock s-10 hood?

[Fuelie Fan]

oh so we're talking about two completely different engines? I got confused.

Keith, when will your car be ready to run? You may have to get Ken to tune it, I'm getting shipped out to China for 1-2 months (un)fortunately. Should be fun, but I'm also going to miss out on a lot stuff (like your car) that I wanted to get taken care of.

[BBPanel]

Dual TBI is not a new idea of course. I have dual Holley tbi's from a Tunnel Ram setup that I have mounted to an Offy BBC 2x4 manifold. I got a separate inj driver board from one of the guys on thirdgen.org so I can run an OEM ECU. The first guy I saw do this was the DragginWagon (http://www.geocities.com/dulmoon/DragginWagonMotorsports) - this site seems to be under construction - somewhere I have more details about his build. He is also running an OEM ECU (at least he was before the NOS) - my cam is a CC hyd roller 212/[email protected], 114 LSA, 0.511 lift - just happened to be the exact same cam Dulmoon is running. I may have a pic of the indution setup if you'd like to see it. I plan on putting this engine in a 56 Chevy Panel - just a cruiser with a little sex appeal from the multiple carb manifold - most may not even realize they are tbi's. -Bob

[BBPanel]

This is the Holley Pro-Jection Wiring Harness "Y" Adapter I used to connect the tbi's together:
http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLine/Products/FMS/FMSFIA/534-21.html

[BBPanel]

Here are the comments DulMoon postes about his 91 Caprice Wagon
- I don't think he'll mind since they were on a public board and his
webpage at one time:

" Car: 91 Caprice Wagon (original 305/700r TBI car)

No ETs or Dyno results yet, but coming within the month hopefully.

Car as it stands now has all the creature comforts functioning (i.e.
A/C, PB, PS. Cruise control worked perfectly until recently when I
swapped out the 700R for a beefy TH400. Anti-lock brakes worked
perfect to till I added the huge offset 20's and gear/tranny
change).
The car is driven regularly and gets averages roughly 16-18 mpg
overall. Emissions are no problem either. I have never had cats
and I have always passed nicely.

Engine: GenIV 454 .030 over, Speed Pro mini dome forged pistons,
Chromoly rings, Comp Cams retrofit Hydraulic roller (212/218
duration at .050, .510/.510 lift and a 114 centerline), Comp Cams
roller rockers (1.7s), GM 113cc semi-closed chamber heads with
peanut port intake ports (2.06/1.72 stock valves), GM 3/8ths rods
that have been shotpeened and beam polished for durability. Long
block yields approximately 9.5 compression and 19 inches of vacuum
at the map sensor.

Induction: Offenhauser 2x4 low profile open plenum alum intake,
Dual 350 truck throttle bodies (Blueprinted and match ported, 4.3
injectors, 500cfm each), Dual Stage5 Top Gun Nitrous plates (100-
300hp). Both TBs have functional idle screws and IAC solenoids.
Rear TB is the brain of the pair housing the Map sensor vacuum port
and the TPS sensor.

Ignition: GM Delco '89 454 distributor, MSD coil, MSD 6AL, MSD RPM
activated switch with micro shift lite, MSD cap and rotor, Taylor
spiral core wires, Autolite Nitrous spark plugs.

Electrical wiring/sensors: Factory 91 Caprice wiring harness.
ECM was replaced with a 7747 ECM with Turbo City chip. Only
sensors needed for this ECM are the Map, TPS, Thermostatic
switch and O2 sensor; all of which are the stock 91 caprice
sensors. I have changed them to the 89 454 sensors and no
difference was noticed. I used an inexpensive "splice" kit that
Turbo City offers for the inline IACs.
However, the IACs are not necessary. I have run with the
holes plugged. Very little difference. The TBIs react as Carbs
instead of Injection. "

[Zefhix]

oh so we're talking about two completely different engines? I got confused.

Keith, when will your car be ready to run? You may have to get Ken to tune it, I'm getting shipped out to China for 1-2 months (un)fortunately. Should be fun, but I'm also going to miss out on a lot stuff (like your car) that I wanted to get taken care of.

The car needs to be running with a "limp on trailer" tune from you for the custom stereo/uphoustry shop which is located in Northern Cali and then we were going to drive down to you for the dyno tune around the 2nd week in Sept. Is the setup done? Can I get it from Ken yet? Do you trust him to tune as well as you? When are you being shipped out and what can we do before you go? Just email me back or call me as time is running out anyway. Thanks!

[gen3bu]

i am pretty sertain that i want to get a weiand z-28 style cross ram.
if someone knows that it will not fit under a stock s-10 hood please let me know before i spend $500 just to be disappointed. also let me know if anyone has one for sale.

i agree with the sex appeal of multi-carb/tbi's and most people won't realize its still efi.

kevin

[Fuelie Fan]

Keith,
Give him a call. He can get you pics of the setup we did. Also, the calibration from that combo should be good enough to get you down the road. I will be back right around then, late august/early september, so hopefully things will work out ok. I leave on Tuesday.

[Zefhix]

Keith,
Give him a call. He can get you pics of the setup we did. Also, the calibration from that combo should be good enough to get you down the road. I will be back right around then, late august/early september, so hopefully things will work out ok. I leave on Tuesday.

Kick ass!! I called you on Friday to shoot the **** and the boss said you were gone and weren't coming back until post China. I'm assuming that from your website you're going over to help with some R&D for fuel injection technologies. Best of luck to you out there and we'll be swinging that car by when you get back. Don't be a stranger, we all want stories.. :smoke:

[Fuelie Fan]

Story/Advice #1: When waiting in line at the airport, don't forget to put the tag on your bag with your name/address/phone. The TSA took my bags before I thought about it, and then they got lost. Given the confused looks of the employees in Changchun when I tried to file a report, I thought I'd never get it back, though I did get very very lucky (5 days later that is). Story #1A: When in china, shopping for clothing is difficult! Lets just say they have a loose interpretation of the phrase "boxer shorts".

[mdprovee]

I am now running a Edelbrock tunnel ram with carbs, and have recently thought of switching it over to FI.

So if I am reading right no one makes a "kit" with all the neccesary parts,ie. TB, computor, Fuel rails, or a "complete kit".

IF done, it would have to be pieced together. Is there someone I can start talking to to see if this posible?

Thanks for any help.

Mike

[gen3bu]

fuelie fan - what the... are you talking about?

mike what axactly are you looking for/to do?

[Fuelie Fan]

gen3bu,
I was responding to keith's request for stories about my trip to China. Sorry for getting off-topic.

Mike, we will be selling single and dual TBI kits, complete, but intended for standard dual quad intakes. I don't know if the carb spacing is the same on the taller tunnel-rams, so our fuel lines may or may not fit without some "tweaking". I think Holley also has dual-quad kits, but I don't know how complete they are.

[mdprovee]

gen3bu,
First off I don't know diddly about FI, what it takes, or if what I want will even work. Just trying to explore an idea I have.

What I am looking to do is switch my tunnel ram from carbs to FI. I can either switch my manifoild over by welding in FI bungs to my existing manifold, and get the injectors, throttle bodies, computor etc., or buy a new complete "kit" with a new manifold and everything else. Not sure of the best route, if there is even a route to take.

Fuelie Fan,
Now the kits you are talking about are for TBI, which has the injectors in the throttle body correct? If my carb spacing is different, would I just need to make new fuel lines to make it work? Do you have a picture or webpage I can look at? Do you include some kind of computor? Can the computor be calibrated to my motor?

Thanks for any ideas, information, help you can give me.

Mike

[mdprovee]

I was wondering the internet and found this..

http://force-efi.com/machefi.htm

About half way down is a tunnel ram with throttle bodies. That is what I am looking to do.

Anybody worked with this company before?

Thanks, Mike

[gen3bu]

I was wondering the internet and found this..

http://force-efi.com/machefi.htm

About half way down is a tunnel ram with throttle bodies. That is what I am looking to do.

Anybody worked with this company before?

Thanks, Mike


that tunnel ram setup looks very cool. although system start at $3250 :scared:!!!

mike - do you want it too look like it still has carbs, or do you want a trick looking efi tunnel ram?

below is a pick of what i am using right now. it adapts the gm 220 tbi for the 454 (2" bores) to a holley 4150 flange for use with my nos system. time to double the air/fuel/n20! i am having 2 more made only thinner. this one is 1.250" thick.

[Fuelie Fan]

Our kit is TBI, yes. We use the GM throttle bodies, but we can have them vibratory polished, and we have custom billet adaptors that when combined with the vibe treatment makes for a very clean looking system. I think the kits won't be for sale for around a month or two though, as we're ironing out some supplier glitches and have to wait the required lead time for first orders.
I'm not currently in the states, so i don't have access to our pic archive, and our website doesn't have them yet. But, try calling Barry White's Street Rod Repair at 951-273-9284 and ask for Ken, he's our main distributor and should be able to get you pics and more info. I know there's a nice picture in Barry's newest pamphlet, and a mag article hopefully coming out soon. I don't want to take any more space on here "advertising", so if you want more info email me or call ken.
If you want multipoint, I talked to a guy at Force EFI once and he seemed pretty competent. I've never personally driven one of his calibrations or used any of his parts though. Many others on this board have modified carb intakes for MPFI and could advise you on who did the work for them.
Honestly, if your engine is pretty radical (as most tunnel-rammed engines are) you may want to consider MPFI, as (I think someone already pointed out) TBI will have the same problems with fuel puddling in a big open plenum as a carb does. Not quite AS bad, but it may still be a problem. Moving the injectors into the ports should help alleviate this. But, it costs a lot more and does require the intake modification, which TBI doesn't. And, it's harder to hide than TBI, which once underneath the aircleaner looks like a carb setup, which is cool if you want that old-school look.

[mdprovee]

Thanks guy for your responses.

This gives me something to work with. Now I know it is a posible thing, and something I need to look at more in depth. Also need to make plans when looking and buying a new tank and fuel lines as I am putting the car back together. Plan now for FI that way I wont have to change it later.

I havent run the car on the street yet, so I dont know its manners yet, as to whether go with TBI or multi port. I will probably get the car running with the carbs, then after a year or so switch over.

Again thanks for your help.

Mike

[Fuelie Fan]

that is actually an excellent idea, too many people have not done that and ended up blaming the EFI for problems that ended being the fault of something else. Let us know when you're ready to make the switch

[gen3bu]

mike - would you be willing to run dual gm tbi's. a friend of mine is a cnc machinist and we arre going to start making and testing adapters. i can already write/burn my own chips. all i need to figure out now is the injector drivers. let me know if you are interested in this idea.

kevin

[mdprovee]

Thanks Kevin,

But I am probably 2 years away from actually doing this, time to finish the car and runit with the carbs for a little while. I need to learn more about FI also.

I will definatley keep you in mind when that time comes.

Mike

[Fuelie Fan]

[QUOTE=Fuelie Fan]Our kit is TBI, yes. We use the GM throttle bodies, but we can have them vibratory polished, and we have custom billet adaptors that when combined with the vibe treatment makes for a very clean looking system. QUOTE]


[QUOTE=gen3bu]would you be willing to run dual gm tbi's. a friend of mine is a cnc machinist and we arre going to start making and testing adapters. i can already write/burn my own chips. all i need to figure out now is the injector drivers. let me know if you are interested in this idea. QUOTE]

sounds like we're in a similar business...

[gen3bu]

what do you do?
i am a master ase tech and state emissions certifed, but i prefer building custom anything.

ie: my push lawn mower has a full exhaust system with muffler on it!

[Fuelie Fan]

I should recruit you to build one for my dad's generator, it's a noisy SOB

I actually work as an engineer for a relatively new fuel injection company called Injection Logic, and this TBI kit will be one of our first releases. Actually, our first release was a smog legal MGB kit. We're also doing a jaguar kit (becuase XK's unlimited is literally a mile away from us) which i just finished calibrating, and it's in their hands now to turn prototype parts into production quality, not sure how long that will take. I'm not much of a british car guy, but the E-type I got to drive around for a couple weeks was a kick in the pants!
I'd like to eventually make some of our chevy kits smog legal for all our neighbors here in CA, but's it's tricky (and somewhat boring, both of which you must be quite familiar with as a smog tech) becuase we'd probably have to design around the stock engines, and it'd have to be vehicle-specific. However, if we follow what we did with the MG, all we really have to do is target the most restrictive year (81 for second-gen f-bodys), and then we may be able to get certification for all previous years as well. One of my ideas is actually to get a vehicle line certified with a crate motor like the ZZ4, which takes out all the effort of making sure our calibration works well enough on a 71 (which had decent performance) while still passing CARB on the 81 engine (which is by all accounts a dog). We'll probably do some sort of official survey before we do it to 1) make sure there's interest and 2) see which approach is more popular. Either way, there is hope. But, it's an expensive and time-consuming process, so we're gonna try to sell these generic "off-highway" kits first, and do some emissions stuff maybe in the next year or two. Emissions is our specialty, currently we're developing a new ecu for vehicles in china to meet Euro-III emissions requirements, which is why I'm in northern China right now.