Where to start: Pro-Touring 69 Camaro??

[Phillip_L]

Hello,


I would really like to build a car, but trying to figure out where to start. I see a ton of 69 Camaro’s for sale. Some are just selling a stripped down shell for around $7,000 and others are semi-restored complete cars for around $19,000. The “complete cars” usually have decent paint and chrome, but not show quality.


I really do not want to deal with paint, body, and rust if I do not have to. Am I better off trying to find a “complete car”? Will I be able to find a decent car for under $20,000 (good paint, body, glass, and chrome) or do I just need to start with a bare shell?


I can handle the interior, motor, transmission, rear end, and suspension.


If I buy a shell, it there any difference in a V6 Vs. a V8 body (Body, sub-frame, etc)?


Phillip

[Steve1968LS2]

Step one determine your budget then add 30%

Step two decide what you want to do with the car.. show it, cruise it, race it, etc

Step three decide what parts you want and prioritize them.. mini tub? type of motor? auto or man trans? custom interior or modified stocker?

Price the parts and labor and see how many fit your budget.

Find a car that is either a bare shell or that has as many of the features you wanted in your plan. If you plan wanted a built small block then don't find a big block car if possible. sure you can sell the old parts you money wise you are better off to find a car with the motor, wheels, trans and such that you like

Plan, plan, plan and then plan some more. Be realistic and don't over dream to the point where it will take you years and years to do the build. Some people are about the build and don't mind but many get burned out by the process. remember that this is supposed to be a FUN hobby :)

Oh, there are no V6 first gens.. there are I6 (inline) first gens and the body and subframe are the same as a V8

I suggest you buy Tony Huntimeyer's book "how to build a GM pro-street car" ( www.racehome.com ) Im sure i screwed up the name and spelling but look at the link and you will find it. it will be the best $20 you spend :)

[vanzuuk1]

What Steve said, plus my two cents-

Look At every single camaro on ebay, watch the final sale price.You will get an education by looking at the cars you dont want.

Make an out line on paper of what you want the car to have and what you want to do with it.Start a scrapbook of cars you like and ads of products you like.

Go to a few local shows and think about why you liked certain cars and not others.

If you can find a clean, rust free driver in a color you like, buy it.You shuld find one for around twenty grand.

[Phillip_L]

Thanks Steve.

My budget is 60K

I would like to build a car that can do all of these things from time to time. A little racing, some shows, and definitely a car that can be driven.

I have always liked your Z069 and Tony’s LS1Tech car.

I am basing my budget around Tony’s “LS1Tech Parts List”. I would like to build a similar car with a few changes (LS1 or LS2, blower or turbo, 69 exterior look, Modern interior and feel.

I am just trying to find a starting point. If find a primed shell in decent shape, how much should I budget for paint, chrome, and glass? I would like to smooth out the firewall like your Z069, get the exterior painted & assembled, power coat the sub fame, and then I can do the rest.


I have been watch ebay for about a month. I keep seeing cars that do not hit there reserve. Some of the cars are junk and the owners are really proud of them. If they do not look good in the pictures, they really do not look good in person.

[Nicks67GTO]

Thanks Steve.

My budget is 60K

With a fat budget like that id start by setting up a detailed plan. Than find a rust free straight shell out of the south. Those would be my top priority. Why spend 20k on a driver when your just going to pull everything back out and take it down to a shell anyway???To me thats a waste of 10k right there. With 60K youve got alot of options.

[Steve1968LS2]

Paint is hard, where are you located? Paint in CA cost more than say OK.. you can spend anywhere from $7k to $20k for a quality paint and body job. You will save a LOT by taking the paint shop the car already stripped of parts.

Ebay rule #4356 "a picture hides a thousand sins"..

Some great cars pop up on here from time to time. Glass isnt that bad.. for the whole car with good aftermarket glass, installed expect to spend a grand. As for chrome, if you have the parts then that will save you. I spent about a grand on my 69 for high quality work. You can find used LS1's for under $3k complete (i paid $2800 for my LS1 and 4l60e but it needed a little cosmetic love)

$60k is a good amount and, if you look for deals, you should be able to build a great car for that. do what I said about making a list and prioritizing.. start researching shops to do the work (get REFERALS, never believe the shop) and keep your eyes open for the perfect starter car. Unfortunatly you want a 69 and they go for the most $$$ if you are open to a 67 or 68 you could knock a few grand off the price.

Again, if you don't have a plan you WILL end up running out of money about half way through the project due to the "well, since I am here I might as well..." syndrome. :)

[Steve1968LS2]

5th car down in vbgarage is an example of a great starter car (except for you since it is a 67).. clean and ready to start on. Well if you don't mind building the car from the ground up. The trouble with finding a car already put together is that a good paint job to someone else may NOT be a good paint job for you.. or the paint quality is great but you don't love the color.

Oh, be sure to check www.collectorcartraderonline.com since they have lots of cars and unlike ebay you can see what the person is actually asking for the car.

[Phillip_L]

I am in Houston, Tx

There are several shells near me that look good (on the screen):

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=4557293630&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=4557293630&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT)


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=4557518483&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=4557518483&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT)


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=4557313559&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT

It is hard to tell what is hiding under the fresh primer. I would love to start with a shell and build exactly what I want. I am just a little intimidated by it. I am good at taking thing apart, labeling all the bags, and remembering where they go. On a shell, you are on your own to a point.

Also, how hard is it to convert a automatic car to a manual? Is it as simple as finding a set of pedal and linkage?

Thanks for all the replies everyone.

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Philip,

I would be extremely weary about a freshly primered shell. I've seen more than a few cars start off like this and end up back at the body shop a year or so later. Don't discount the amount of dirtbags there are out there. There's a lot of guys that will 'glass over rust and make things look good when you purchase the car, then in a year or so, all the cancer starts bubbling through. Your best bet in your situation and based on your budget would be to find a shell that is as rust free as possible send it off to a body shop and go from there. Search for shells in Arizona, Nevada, So. Cal, and New Mexico. The dry arid climates are the best for finding rust free stuff. Good luck in your search!

[KacyZ28]

only buy a shell if you are building a race car if you want a complete car buy it that way then mod it as you like selling the orignal parts will help fund the project i made the mistake of buying a shell and its taken awhile to find the parts that i wanted to keep or need for the car

[Nine Ball]

Phillip,
Some hints I can give:

-The most scary thing for me is to buy a car with brand new paint on it. Typically takes about a year for paint to bubble or bondo to swell and crack due to poor repair jobs and unremoved rust. I think those primer cars would be okay if you bring a magnet with you to check all the common trouble spots on these cars. Cars that were restored a few years ago tend to show the quality of work the best. If it was restored several years ago, and the paint is holding up great, chances are it was repaired properly and just needs a refreshing.

-Interior condition or components doesn't matter. Interior stuff is dirt cheap on these cars compared to late model cars. You could have a brand new looking 69 interior in the car for about $1K total.

-A straight and rust free body is THE most important part of the purchase. Rust repair is the most costly thing to do, try to avoid that if you can.

-Don't pay more for an "SS" or "Z28" unless the seller has concrete proof the car is authentic. Know what to look for, do some research on those items. WAY too many fake SS's and such out there. 9 out of 10 X11/X44 cars these days are fake SS's.

-Glass is relatively cheap. Easy to replace too. New windshields are only about $100 installed, rear windows around $200.

-Emblems, trim, bumpers, chrome etc... is relatively cheap too.

pro's of buying a driving vehicle is that it is easy to move around while you work on it. You can drive it up/down the driveway, onto the trailer, and from shop to shop. You can also sell off some of the parts you won't be using and recover a bit of expenses.

pro's of buying a rolling chassis is that you get to pick the color and spend more time on detailing the body itself before having it painted. Some guys are perfectionists and want every inch of the body sanded/smoothed, some just spray over sanding marks.

Either way, for what you want to do with the car, it will be torn into pieces in the garage sooner or later. You just need to determine if you want a bigger pile of crappy stock 69 parts on the floor or a smaller pile, haha.

[Nine Ball]

here is a Magnacharged LS1 '68 posted on LS1TECH:

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=341695

[MuscleRodz]

If you have that kind of money on hand ready to spend, I would hold out for a while and see what comes for sale over the next few months. You could have probably bought Steve or Tony's car if the timing was right and both are top notch cars. With the latest trend of build it, write up in magazine, and sell it, I am sure a few more "GOOD" cars will show up for sale.

Mike

[Dan Sherwood]

I currently have a 69 camaro that sounds like what you are looking for.

It is not an original type restoration, but was built to do many things well. It is a show quality car that I have had to 2-20 minute sessions on a road course, and 2 trips down the qtr mile to verify performance, and operation, ect...

My 67 bbc camaro is my 30 footer that I beat on at both venues, but the 69 is the looker, and performs very well to boot. 12.7 n/a in the qtr, or with the 75 shot of nitrous it drops to 12.0 This car does NOT have a roll bar, but it does have the factory shoulder belts.

Hers is some info-Frame off restoration, and powder coated frame (black). All rust areas removed and replaced with new sheet metal, though there were very few as it was an original Ca car. I've put it together as a Z28 with the rs pkg (hide away headlights, ect...) It has approx 3500 miles on it since finishing it earlier this year. I have more into it than you stated your budget was, but I can save you some dough on your budget (saves you $ to change out what you might like different?)

I can get you some pictures if you're interested, but here are some of the items I've put in the car:
10.25:1 alum headed 383 (carb'd)-approx 450hp. Built TH350 with a gear vendors od. Coan 2800 stall conv. Built 10 bolt rear end with posi, 3.73 gears. Qa1 adjustable coil over shocks. Global west tubular frame connectors and tubular upper and lower a arms. 12 inch SS front disc brakes with performance pads and Master power 11 inch rear drums with performance shoes. Vintage a/c. Power locks, windows, and security system with remote, and cruise control. Dakota digital dash with digital fuel pressure, tranny temp, and clock/temp gauage. Lots of dyna mat. kenwood 601 am/fm/cass with 6 cd changer and elec antenna.

Color is medium green metallic, with black vinly roof and black metallic racing stripes. Interior is black/white houndstooth with 2 sets of front seats (oringinal ones, and a set of 99 camaro with seat heaters, also covered in the houndstooth). Chrome Budnik Cobalt wheels-17x8.5/17x9.5 with Michelin pilot sports 245/40/17-245/45/17.

If you're dead set on a new fi engine and manual tranny, this ain't got it. You can buy lots of gas for the cost to put it in though. This car will get 15-16 mpg on the road, and runs cool in the Phoenix heat, as it has a new 3 row radiator, and additional coolers for tranny and engine oil.

You will miss out on the 1-2 years to build yourself a car, and the times you wish you had a gun to shoot the various shops that promised they'd get it done on a certain time frame-but you would eventually get over it.

Let me know. [email protected]

[Nine Ball]

If you have that kind of money on hand ready to spend, I would hold out for a while and see what comes for sale over the next few months. You could have probably bought Steve or Tony's car if the timing was right and both are top notch cars.

Mike

...and if you find one you like, don't wait too long! They sell rather quickly ;)

[dgumoe]

what about one of those new 69 camaros? you know the bare shells that are all new metal. if youve got 60000 to spend the bodies were only going for what 20000? youve still got 40000 to play with.

[MuscleRodz]

It isn't a '69, but Kerr's 68 is for sale in the for sale forum below. It is a bad a$$ Camaro for $40K. That leaves $20K to change it to your liking.

Mike

[BB69]

You said you know what you want to do with the car, but are you sure? Not a smart a** question, what I mean is have you done all these things previously and do you really enjoy them all the same amount. For me, I don't like putting my car in shows. My cars aren't pretty. I live on a dirt road, and I drive my cars. Just knowing that helps me with a lot of decisions. I have taken the Vette to the drag strip and had fun, but nothing like taking it to a road course. Again, that means I make decisions based on road course type driving. I can still take the car to the strip, but it won't perform as well at the strip. It's fine to do many things with the car, but I would not only decide what you want to do with it, but also in what priority.

Depending on your timeline, I would suggest buying a car and driving it before starting on your dream machine. It's hard to know what you like until you've tried something you hate. In the current market, buying a car and driving it for a year isn't a horrible financial hit.

[Charley Lillard]

A word of caution regarding buying a shell. It became a shell for a reason. Also if this is your first Camaro you would be better off starting with a complete car so you don't have to chase parts that you know nothing about. With a complete car you can keep track off all the little things that you would otherwise wonder "what the heck is that". Half the fun is in "the Hunt" so be patient and look for a good car. Don't buy one without someone looking at it in person. I have seen stuff even on this site that looked great but when seen in person was horrible.

[vanzuuk1]

I am with charlie , I bought a clean car and now I am driving the car as I tweak it to my liking. Just look at a lot of cars before you buy, you learn a lot looking at all the turds. I paid 17 grand for my car and with elbow grease and a few parts I am very happy with it.Its great to have the weekend come up and I have the choice of taking a cruise or updating some parts.Good luck.

[Phillip_L]

Thanks for all the replies. I am still looking. This will be by second 1st gen Camaro, if I ever find the one I want.

Thanks again.

[phaseshift]

I will sell you mine- Complete car, but no interior. Maybe 85K and you can drive it same day. I will even throw in the trailer for free. Bring ear plugs.

www.rscamaro.com (http://www.rscamaro.com/)

[yody]

has anyone seen "Phaseshift's" car??? WOW!!! 85K looks like a super deal...all the way from china??? wow again!

[Phillip_L]

PhaseShift,

That car is crazy. The photos of the car are unbelievable. You are a little far and way out of my budget.

Philllip

[MuscleRodz]

has anyone seen "Phaseshift's" car??? WOW!!! 85K looks like a super deal...all the way from china??? wow again!
Car is in the US. Scott has a featured spot in his corner of the web on Lateral-G.net. Couple threads on the car too. Awesome car he is building.

Mike

[phaseshift]

Yep, it is in the USA, unfortunately, I am in China (or Vietnam, or Korea, or Taiwan, or Hong Kong, or Thailand, or Malaysia or the Philippines, or... I am not so sure now...)

Hey, best of luck on that project. A lot of good, sound advice in this forum topic so far, especially the "come up with a budget and add 30%" comment.