I want more diesels

[Ishmael]

I just got back from Costa Rica where there are more pot holes than roads. Pot holes that can literally swallow a Daihatsu BeGo. Mountains, hippies and dogs. One thing I noticed over and over was that there were all kinds of small 4-door pickups (even a ford ranger) and they were all diesels. There was also a tundra but I don't think it was called that. A lot of those trucks are available here but we can't get them with diesels. They weren't cranking out black smoke. They weren't that noisey and they seemed to work great. Is there some kind of conspiracy or why can't we get them?

[XLexusTech]

Yeah the ole CR... headed down in a few weeks, did you notice all those toyota starlets too..... anyway,,,, if you want a car you cant beat the VW TDi, if you want somthing really cool they are stuffing the VW tdi motor into the new 4 door wranglers for around 6k with 4wd, if you get an older two door wrangler, you can run a TDI and get 50 MPG with 4WD. Motor is quiet and not smelly at all

[NJSPEEDER]

Diesel is massive in the rest of the world, the US is way behind the curve. GM has finaly made it official that they are going to start selling the diesel Cruze but not until 2013 model year even though it has been puttering around Europe for 3 years already. They claim it took time to develop the engine to meet US emissions. If it takes that many high paid engineers that long to meet an emissions standard that is only about 2% tighter I think it is time to find new engineers.

-Tim

[go-fish]

Ditto what NJSpeeder said. I've been all around the world and the regulation of the US as far as cars are concerned is ridiculous. A lot of regulations are good and keep us safe but the engine type should be left to the consumers choice.
While living in Puerto Rico, I had a VW Jetta Diesel (non-TDI). When I got back to the States I bought a 2001 TDI diesel. It's over a decade old, over 200,000 miles, and still gets nearly 50 mpg. I used to regularly get 52mpg and got over 725 miles to the tank.

What psses me off is that Prius' can drive in the HOV lane with 1 occupant but diesel cars can't even though 1.9L TDI engines were in the 2009 and 2010 Green Cars of the Year. Hypocrisy!!!

[NJSPEEDER]

The US ignorance of diesel is beyond ridiculous in my opinion. VW is even restricted on how many diesels a year they are allowed to import which only works to their advantage because they get to charge premium prices. I am looking to buy a new daily driver, probably around winter/spring, and the Golf TDi is very high on the shopping list because of MPG and diesels last.

The thing that really cracks me up is the push for EV's. What a crock, cars that require twice the energy to build, have half the materials recovery rate, and get their energy from the same coal fired power plants that the same hipies pushing electric vehicles are demonizing and taxing to death.

Someplace there is a great study about the hybrid crock, they proved that over a traditional first owner service life an H2 actually had less of a total environmental impact than a Prius.

-Tim

[andrewb70]

The Jeep TDI conversion is really trick!!!

http://www.hpamotorsport.com/tdijeep.htm

Andrew

[Ishmael]

I have a friend that converts Jeep to diesel. Guys send him their jeeps from as far away as Texas. I really want a small 4 door diesel pickup though that has all the conveniences and a warantee. My next jeep will have either an ls or a diesel. I've got my eyes out for one now but I have a 68 to finish, a truck to restore and a 74 to start soon. Some will have to wait for a new garage but I want another jeep soon. Don't tell my wife.

[twosaturns]

the auto companies say there isn't any demand but its a lie. diesel is artificially expensive in the US (diesel is a by-product of petroleum refinement), and diesel powered vehicles are usually priced thousands higher than gas powered versions, so when they don't sell as many they say 'see? there's no demand'.
if they priced them fairly and priced diesel properly, things would be lots different.
this all comes down to profits for the gas companies who lobby the govt to keep the staus quo.

[Randy67]

Don't forget Califonias contribution to diesels, they have all but outlawed them, or at least tried to. In Europe diesels make up half of the cars sold while here they are a small percentage. I would love to have more diesel choices here, just need to get the EPA, government and the others to allow more of them. The new diesels are worlds better than the old Detroits and such.

[wmhjr]

diesel is artificially expensive in the US (diesel is a by-product of petroleum refinement)

Not an accurate answer.

This has been explained time and time again. People need to learn more abotu petroleum production processes to understand what is actually going on.

Current refinery technology has relatively inflexible ratios of the different products refined from crude. While there is some small amount of variability, at the macro level the percentages are firm enough to be considered locked. Years ago, diesel consumption in the US was relatively low, allowing the majority of diesel to be exported and created lower demand and subsequently lower pricing in the US. As the years have passed, diesel demand has risen dramatically to the point where it is no longer flexible, and demand outstrips capacity - especially when considering the increased demand for export. Correspondingly, prices have increased significantly. It is NOT "artificial" in any way whatsoever. Then there is the additional cost of manufacturing diesel engines - and there is additional cost.

I should be more clear. Diesel is no more "artificially" high than any other petro product, which is a result of increasing demand (especially from emerging markets such as China) along with taxation.

[go-fish]

As the years have passed, diesel demand has risen dramatically to the point where it is no longer flexible, and demand outstrips capacity - especially when considering the increased demand for export. Correspondingly, prices have increased significantly.

I was always under the assumption that it was because of the use of JP8 and Diesel used in Iraq, Afghanistan, and other places by the military. Just about every piece of equipment the military has is a diesel. It seemed like about 2004-2005 it really went up and that was the height of Iraq.
Now that Iraq is really drawing down, I've been waiting very patiently for it to go down. I only have to fill up the Jetta every 1 - 1.5 months so I keep forgetting to compare prices but it certainly doesn't feel like the prices are going to return to sub-gasoline prices if we enter into a peace period.

[wmhjr]

I was always under the assumption that it was because of the use of JP8 and Diesel used in Iraq, Afghanistan, and other places by the military. Just about every piece of equipment the military has is a diesel. It seemed like about 2004-2005 it really went up and that was the height of Iraq.
Now that Iraq is really drawing down, I've been waiting very patiently for it to go down. I only have to fill up the Jetta every 1 - 1.5 months so I keep forgetting to compare prices but it certainly doesn't feel like the prices are going to return to sub-gasoline prices if we enter into a peace period.

Nope. It's mostly JP, BTW as you probably know. But it's really the same in this discussion. While OPTEMPO has increased dramatically, it really has no effect as it's a drop in the bucket as compared to the literally 10 fold demand increased in light diesels in emerging markets such as China. The price increases started well before 2004 - that's just the final breaking point where you saw diesel surpass gas prices for the first time in the US. This was further aggravated at that time due to the ultra low sulphur diesel which disrupted production and supply chain systems but at the end of the day, the issue is simple.

The demand for diesel is increasing faster than the demand for gasoline, yet the production capacity is not growing at the same pace. According to pretty much all predictions I've seen, that is not expected to slow down. Add to this things like China banning the exportation of any diesel this past year and the burden grows yet stronger.

[andrewb70]

I was always under the assumption that it was because of the use of JP8 and Diesel used in Iraq, Afghanistan, and other places by the military. Just about every piece of equipment the military has is a diesel. It seemed like about 2004-2005 it really went up and that was the height of Iraq.
Now that Iraq is really drawing down, I've been waiting very patiently for it to go down. I only have to fill up the Jetta every 1 - 1.5 months so I keep forgetting to compare prices but it certainly doesn't feel like the prices are going to return to sub-gasoline prices if we enter into a peace period.

Your local Chinese joints has a grease pit out back that your Jetta can enjoy...Free...

Andrew

[Olav]

My Tahoe -02 is LPG converted and cost for driving is almost 50% of fuel cost. I also have a 2006 VW Touran 1.9 TDI. The diesel consumption is very low. But it's only 105 hp. I almost forget to fill diesel ;-) . Consumption is 0,55 litre on 10km. Tahoe is 2.0 litre LPG. Diesel is $2,6 pr litre and LPG is $1.20

Anyway the LPG cost for driving the Tahoe is almost the same as driving a normal family car as a BMW 5 serie or a Mercedes e- class on petrol .

[Ishmael]

The more I think of it the more I want to start playing with diesel. I was thinking about the wagon gm had in the 80s. I think I remember that engine being a POS. But now I want an early 60s wagon and a jeep converted. I started searching kijiji for toyota diesels. I don't want the extra work, don't need the the milage and can't afford another project but the more I think about it the more I know I'm going to end up doing it.

[TheJDMan]

The more I think of it the more I want to start playing with diesel. I was thinking about the wagon gm had in the 80s. I think I remember that engine being a POS. But now I want an early 60s wagon and a jeep converted. I started searching kijiji for toyota diesels. I don't want the extra work, don't need the the milage and can't afford another project but the more I think about it the more I know I'm going to end up doing it.

You're right the 80's GM car and light truck diesels had major problems. But not anymore. I can tell you from personal experience that is no longer the case. My 07 Silverado Duramax is without a doubt the best, most powerful truck I have ever owned in 40+years of driving.

[406 Q-ship]

The more I think of it the more I want to start playing with diesel. I was thinking about the wagon gm had in the 80s. I think I remember that engine being a POS. But now I want an early 60s wagon and a jeep converted. I started searching kijiji for toyota diesels. I don't want the extra work, don't need the the milage and can't afford another project but the more I think about it the more I know I'm going to end up doing it.

The 5.7 GM Diesel (1978 - 1984?) was a real pile, a converted 350 Olds gas engine. The only thing good to come out of that was the Olds people got some really great blocks to build a hot rod gas engine. The light truck 6.2 diesel was a much better quality engine for durablity, power was a real downer thorugh. The 6.5 diesel that came out later were a whole lot better for power.

[wmhjr]

The 5.7 GM Diesel (1978 - 1984?) was a real pile, a converted 350 Olds gas engine. The only thing good to come out of that was the Olds people got some really great blocks to build a hot rod gas engine. The light truck 6.2 diesel was a much better quality engine for durablity, power was a real downer thorugh. The 6.5 diesel that came out later were a whole lot better for power.

Absolutely. The 6.2l was far more reliable, though glow plugs were consistently an issue with that engine. We had tons of them in the military in our CUCV series of vehicles.

[go-fish]

Absolutely. The 6.2l was far more reliable, though glow plugs were consistently an issue with that engine. We had tons of them in the military in our CUCV series of vehicles.

The dreaded KLUM relay that would go out and wouldn't cycle the glow plugs correctly. I know the frustration. I was a diesel mech in the military.

[406 Q-ship]

Absolutely. The 6.2l was far more reliable, though glow plugs were consistently an issue with that engine. We had tons of them in the military in our CUCV series of vehicles.

The mechanical injector pumps were very tempermental too. It was the weak point shared by both the 5.7 and the 6.2 diesel, when the electronic pumps were on the 6.2 the problem went away.

[twosaturns]

Not an accurate answer.

This has been explained time and time again. People need to learn more abotu petroleum production processes to understand what is actually going on.



well I stand corrected. thanks for the clarification.

[trapin]

Ask...and you shall recieve.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2011-07-22-diesels_n.htm

[go-fish]

I'm un-impressed by the article. What engine are they using? Does it have heritage like the 1.9 TDI? What are the specs of the engine? Is it used in any European GM units? Will it be sourced from outside GM?
I hat journalism these days.

[wmhjr]

The article may not be all that informative, but at least it's good to see that there is to be SOME option. I think a diesel powered Cruze is an interesting proposition.

[Ishmael]

Its good news when you consider the Honda Insight gets roughly the same milage as a TDI or an old CRX and takes more energy to create not to mention what it will take to dispose of the batteries. Honda had a fleet of hyrdrogen cars running around LA back in 2009. I wonder what happened to those. I believe the Grand Cherokee is also being offered with the CRD. Regardless, I still want a small 4 door diesel pickup but this is closer.

[fredd7924]

I have an 01 Jetta TDI as a daily driver and love it. I am getting about 50-55mpg being pretty light on the pedal. It's nice that it has the torque to go up hills in 5th gear without downshifting. Also with the 1,000lb towing capacity, a small trailer almost eliminates the need for a light duty truck.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/08/IMG_1325-1.jpg

[Rileys68Camaro]

I was in Moab in the spring and they had, I'm assuming it was the Jeep company, a Wrangler and a Cherokee looking Jeep with diesels in them. One had a CRD badge on it, they used a Mercedes Common Rail Diesel in the Liberty for a while. I think what killed it was you could only get the diesel if you got the fully loaded model costing way more with the leather and all the toys.

[NJSPEEDER]

They keep threatening to put diesels in all the Jeeps and everyone gets all excited then it never happens. Then again, they don't make real Jeeps anymore so I don't know how many people would notice if they did.

GM keeps claiming that the delay in bringing over compact diesel is meeting the federal emissions requirements. I find this odd considering their own released test data shows their micro-max designs blow cleaner in Euro trim than VW or anyone else's US offerings. Sounds like the delay is more out of either slacking or the bean counters are waiting for some financial magic to happen.....let's say after the next election maybe.

-Tim

[Ishmael]

There is a diesel in the European Wranglers. The liberty is badged "Cherokee" in South and Central America but it doesn't look like an xj so I wonder what you saw. There was a diesel going into a chevelle a while ago - what happened to that swap? Anybody else doing a diesel swap?

[andrewb70]

Why can't GM sell these here?

http://www.chevrolet.co.uk/cars/new-captiva/equipment-technical-data.html

Looks like a very versatile, smallish SUV with a 2.2L diesel and a 6 speed manual trans.

http://www.chevrolet.co.uk/eap/new-captiva.pdf

51 mpg on the highway and 33 mpg in the city. Who needs a damn Prius?

Andrew

[andrewb70]

How about this:

http://www.ford.co.uk/Cars/Fiesta/FueleconomyandCO2emissions

Small Ford cars in the UK with the 1.6L diesel getting 78mpg combined and ubber "green" even by European standards.

Clearly we in the US are stuck with lame petrol technology.

Andrew

[go-fish]

I have an 01 Jetta TDI as a daily driver and love it. I am getting about 50-55mpg being pretty light on the pedal. It's nice that it has the torque to go up hills in 5th gear without downshifting. Also with the 1,000lb towing capacity, a small trailer almost eliminates the need for a light duty truck.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/08/IMG_1325-1.jpg

Hi Brad,

I was curious and searched your user name at another forum I'm on, TDIclub.com, and saw you trailer hitch mod. Great work. I've noticed my TDI has quit pulling the hills so nicely. I think the turbo is kaput. It's at about 200K and my last tank only netted me about 40mpg. Tip top shape she gets 52 mpg.

[fredd7924]

Thanks John, my Jetta has 223,xxx miles on it and still running great. I have noticed a big difference in my fuel economy based on how / where I am driving it. If I'm driving at like 75 mph or doing alot of stop and go, I will get closer to mid 40's. But I have noticed that driving slower on the highway and casual country driving have yielded the 55mpg tanks. Another thing which helps indirectly is a tune, I have more power so I don't have to give as much "throttle". I drove a stock TDI the other day and it was almost necessary to floor it to make it accelerate at a reasonable rate.

[11thhourfabrication]

Everybody seems to have forgotten about the Ford 7.3L IDI diesel. I have a ATS turbo on this motor and the torque is amazing. I also can burn almost any type of oil that can be filtered of impurities. Currently running a 70/30 mix of SVO and diesel without a fuel heater and no pluged filters for the last 2 years. This motor is bulletproof and almost impossible to break.

[Randy67]

Everybody seems to have forgotten about the Ford 7.3L IDI diesel. I have a ATS turbo on this motor and the torque is amazing. I also can burn almost any type of oil that can be filtered of impurities. Currently running a 70/30 mix of SVO and diesel without a fuel heater and no pluged filters for the last 2 years. This motor is bulletproof and almost impossible to break.

And no computer needed for it to run. I used to have a 7.3L IDI, but mine didn't have a turbo upgrade (1991 model). I still got 18 mpg in combined driving with a big ole Crew Cab dually. I sold it many years ago due to ongoing issues with the E4OD trans. I am thinking about getting another, add a turbo kit and running it on veggie oil as well.

[ALLstrokedOUT]

I guess im getting into diesels more because its unknown to me..ive done mopar and chevy v8 gas engines, but ive always wondered about diesels of any shape. Im currently putting together an mudding project thatll also be a backup daily driver with a cheap diesel engine (im looking at a 68' kaiser gladiator but I wont know until the end of the week). From what i can tell the 6.2/6.5 GM's are fairly efficient (25ish mpg), cheap, and plentiful-but my engine choice is still wide open, as long as its cheap and can move the truck.
Im not intensively researching it until i have the truck running, but i too am very interested in running a diesel on old cooking oil, especially since i may already have a lead on a source. I say bring on the diesels!

[Randy67]

Tim, the 6.2/6.5 diesels are decent. Other options you may consider:
1. Ford/International 6.9L/7.3L IDI (1994 and earlier non-powerstroke diesels). They are found in Ford pickups and a lot of International trucks and many buses. International calls them 444s, (T444E versions are the same as the Powerstroke). The IDI engines are very cheap to get and were used in tons of vehicles. No computers to deal with and plenty of automatics and manuals to go behind them.

2. Early 12V Cummins 5.9L (6BTs) are a good choice for both power and gas mileage. No computer either. Also there are quite a few using 4BTs (4 cyl Cummins), they get better gas mileage but can still move a truck easily.

[go-fish]

The 4 BT might be a tad small for a Kaiser Gladiator but they are great engines for smaller buggies like old Range Rovers or small p/u's.

[megaladon6]

in regards to diesel fuel production, why not produce less gasoline and more diesel? the gov't supposedly want to reduce gas usage so... and how is it that we can't produce it but everyone else can? we can send a man to the moon, but can't produce diesel?

[DarkoNova]

Forgive me if I get this totally wrong since I was born in the 80's, but I was always told that during the gas crisis of the 70's, some law was passed or the country voted (basically we all decided, supposedly) that diesel was bad, and because of that, there's been ridiculous restrictions on diesel vehicles in the US. Which sucks, because I love the way they sound, the gobs of torque, and as other people have mentioned, the ridiculous MPG they can achieve.

[wmhjr]

in regards to diesel fuel production, why not produce less gasoline and more diesel? the gov't supposedly want to reduce gas usage so... and how is it that we can't produce it but everyone else can? we can send a man to the moon, but can't produce diesel?

Two (obvious) reasons.

First, because there certainly isn't any surplus of REFINING capacity for gasoline. So, to increase diesel (disregarding my next point just for the sake of discussion) it would reduce gasoline refinement capacity, especially in light of the (ridiculous) multiple "blends" required of our government to begin with.

Second, because there are significant limitations on the ability to vary or adjust the percentages of different product mixes in existing US refinery processing. It's not as simple as just adjusting.

When we sent a man to the moon, we didn't have every community refusing to allow construction of facilities or rejecting it "in their backyard". We didn't have an EPA motivated to deny pretty much everything. We didn't have.... Well, I think you get the picture.

Perhaps you didn't read the earlier posts. It's not that everyone else can. It's really more that there has been increased demand EVERYWHERE. Look at fueld prices including diesel internationally, and you won't see diesel being a real bargain anywhere these days. And yes, I have a diesel I love and will not give up.

[wmhjr]

Forgive me if I get this totally wrong since I was born in the 80's, but I was always told that during the gas crisis of the 70's, some law was passed or the country voted (basically we all decided, supposedly) that diesel was bad, and because of that, there's been ridiculous restrictions on diesel vehicles in the US. Which sucks, because I love the way they sound, the gobs of torque, and as other people have mentioned, the ridiculous MPG they can achieve.

Not really true. As a matter of fact, up until 2005/6 you could as an example buy a MB diesel car in PA. However, PA adopted California standards in 2007, which made them illegal until last year. Really it's just emissions restrictions in general that have gotten far more stringent- and not in the 70s. I'm not aware of the oil embargo and gas shortages in the 70s having anything whatsoever to do with diesel availability.

[megaladon6]

so it's difficult to increase diesel production, not impossible. the point is we act like it's impossible instead of looking at how to get it done.

[wmhjr]

What exactly is your suggestion? Build more refinement capacity? Absolutely. Any idea how to make that happen? Reduce gasoline production? And dramatically increase gasoline pricing? Not sure I'm OK with that. What other "possible" suggestion do you have? Serious question.

[megaladon6]

those sound like pretty good starts. hell the gov't like to throw it's weight around to help hybrid and EV production. both of which will lead to increased load on the electrical system, so we have to build new facilities anyway. so get them to throw some weight behind diesel production. it's not like the gas companies are broke and can't afford the infrastructure.

[wmhjr]

Sorry, but on the second idea I could not disagree with you more. IMHO reducing gasoline refinement is perhaps one of the worst, dumbest and dangerous ideas out there. Sure, it sounds great from your perspective. The load on the economy and the stress it places on everyday people is ridiculous - AND - I find the idea of private business being "forced" to reduce the production of one (critical) product for their own means reprehensible. Many of the people most heavily affected by increased fuel prices are the same people who cannot afford to even think about buying a new diesel. So, you penalize everyone for your own goals.

Second, you totally misunderstand the problem. There are plenty of companies that have tried - and desperately want to - build more refinery capacity. The problem IS the government. As I said before, I totally agree that we need more capacity, AND we need to update the capacity we have. AND that the government (and certain state and local governments and courts) have stood in the way far too long.

Bottom line. Business would LOVE to produce more. Our governments are exactly what prevents it. No need to take a shot at oil companies or any other corporation here. They're already on the bandwagon.

[megaladon6]

well if they have to reduce gas production to make diesel then thats what they have to do.... no magic fairy is going to come down and make things better. the cost increase could be offset by gradually releasing supplies from the strategic reserve, or curtailing exports. and the way things are presently going, people may be forced to pay the premium for hybrid/EV's anyway
so what you're also saying is that the capability is there, but with gov't restrictions. so that makes things easier. i'm not taking a shot at the oil companies, but it cant be denied that they have been making extremely good profits. besides if they reinvest, and build facilities, that can actually help the economy by providing jobs in multiple sectors.

[wmhjr]

I will stop here. You and I are WAY too far apart to ever agree, and you're frankly not familiar with the industry. I've already agreed that more overall capacity is critical, though this is hardly breaking news and has been discussed for more than a decade - having been stopped by our liberal friends - NOT oil companies. As for reducing gas production, well let's just say I'm glad you're not making the decision. Doing that would result in probably a 500 point market dive right off the bat, with daily expense increases hitting the lower middle class the very hardest. Can you spell DEEP recession?

I think we're done here.

[megaladon6]

so decide, can production be increased or not. and please notice i threw out at least one solution to an increase in gas prices. and it's not like they're real stable right now, are they? and it's not like the gas production would just be cut in half. a gradual shift from gas to diesel would reduce the impact. and since the govt is already "forcing" private business to reduce production of a critical product, it's not much different to change which one it is.

[go-fish]

Here's a diesel worth building

http://youtu.be/WLgWttP30sw

[ALLstrokedOUT]

I like the lope on that last one, You could always go this route though too! The guys other video does a walk around/in car video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9--ISeNexM&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

[moreHP]

When we sent a man to the moon, we didn't have every community refusing to allow construction of facilities or rejecting it "in their backyard". We didn't have an EPA motivated to deny pretty much everything. We didn't have.... Well, I think you get the picture.

I totally agree. I think we have regulated ourselves right out of the market in several industries.

[Kenova]

In terms of exterior dimensions, who makes the smallest V8 diesel?

Ken

[Randy67]

Kenova, For American diesels, I would think that the Olds 350 diesel may be the smallest, but probably the least desirable too. Next would probably be either the 6.2/6.5L GM diesels, then the 6.9/7.3L IDI (pre-powerstroke) & Powerstrokes. The Ford diesel are slightly bigger than a Big Block Chevy (seen both side by side at a machine shop), the 6.2/6.5 should be close as well. The dimensions are out on the web, just not all in one place.