cages and rear seat ignorance??????

[71dusterdan]

I am still amazed frequently on other auto forums how many people really want to have a usable backseat after a bar or cage install!!! Hey I tried it to, I asked the same questions....it was here at pro-touring.com that I was educated to the dangers and folly! Thank you p-t.com. I constantly find myself being the spoiler now. Everytime I see a thread asking about the use of the backseat, I end up sharing the points that were brought to my attention here. Keep spreading the word guys!

[Steve1968LS2]

I have no backseat.. it just wouldn't be safe.. and I typically wear my full four-point harness when I drive and not just the lap..

That said I feel you COULD design a roll bar that would be safe if people were back there.. but most arn't.

[LS1NOVA]

If you push the rear bars toward the outside of the car and have a single occupant in the middle of the seat, I feel it can be safely done. (Mine is this way)

[wmhjr]

I have never seen any cage that is safe for rear seat passengers, period. I can't fathom any possible design that would make it so.

[ace_xp2]

External cage? :)

[NJSPEEDER]

lol @ Ace. I think you nailed it man. Go 4x4 style and put on a huge exo-skel to keep occupants safe. Wouldn't even interfere with interior space.

-Tim

[Jim Nilsen]

the best example of what to do with the rear seat area is Jackass, making a place for tools and gear for the track is the smartest thing to do with that area.

I have my bars in the back so there is more room and if I put the right kind of seating in the back it might be good enough to fit people or kids under 4ft 8" or less as long as the seat is placed as low as it can be,but it requires short legs wich most people don't have. then there is the impossible part for most people and that is getting back in that area to begin with, it's a pain to have to even go in that area for anything.

But as most say it really wouldn't be a good thing.

The only part of the whole arguement that loses it with me is the point it gets to when you actually get into an accident to begin with. If a crash is so major that you are going to get hurt and thrown around that bad, most older cars will not keep you safe inside no matter if you have a cage or not. If you have a cage built right it just might keep the car more in tact and actually keep more room for you to make it through. Nothing is better than the right restraints and a good place to mount them which is why we have the cross bar behind the seat.

Also, no matter how many times I have heard that the SFI padding is so hard people won't use it, but your head and bones are much harder and it works. Read all of the info and safety on SFI padding and you will understand why it is so hard. That foam rollbar padding is useless in an accident and will split at the same time as your body starts to hit the bar.

It's actually hard to find people to even go for a ride in our cars unless they are one of us. I could count the number of people that have sat in my passenger seat on both hands and you can pretty much reason that you will never need a back seat for anyone!

Avoiding accidents is the only way to be safe,
DRIVE DEFENSIVELY

be right but don't be dead right!!!

[NOT A TA]

I have never seen any cage that is safe for rear seat passengers, period. I can't fathom any possible design that would make it so.

JEEP? Apparently the national highway safety guys think they're still safe enough.

Teasing^^^

Seriously though, I think a cage could be built into a PT car hidden behind the interior panels. It's getting to the point with some "builds" where the exterior sheetmetal of the particular car is all some people are starting with anyway. With a correctly designed/engineered cage utilizing a removable harness bar (or stock type harnesses and no bar) there's a possibility you might not even be able to tell there is a cage in a finished car while sitting in the interior. Tech inspectors at sanctioned events probably would have fits about them though, trying to determine if the cage fits their guidelines.

[ace_xp2]

I've often thought that having a center jump seat/console like a pick up would be a better idea than seats in the cage. That still leaves most at least passenger shy from where they started, but it's better than nothing. The Matra Murena (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matra_Murena) gave me the idea.

[wmhjr]

JEEP? Apparently the national highway safety guys think they're still safe enough.

Teasing^^^

Seriously though, I think a cage could be built into a PT car hidden behind the interior panels. It's getting to the point with some "builds" where the exterior sheetmetal of the particular car is all some people are starting with anyway. With a correctly designed/engineered cage utilizing a removable harness bar (or stock type harnesses and no bar) there's a possibility you might not even be able to tell there is a cage in a finished car while sitting in the interior. Tech inspectors at sanctioned events probably would have fits about them though, trying to determine if the cage fits their guidelines.

I don't think the jeep roll bars are safe for rear passengers. Frankly, I don't think they're safe for non-helmeted front passengers, but it's a trade-off for the inherent rollover issues with the CJ5 genre. I distinctly remember exactly when the Army required ROPES (roll over protection systems) be mandatory and suspended use of any non-ROPES equipped 1/4T. Since I witnessed soldiers being killed in rollovers (in both 1/4t M151s as well as tracked vehicles such as 113s and 577s) I was instantly a big believer.

But anyway, a real cage that meets any governing body specs cannot be hidden. Any such design is immediately in violation of every standard I've seen, regardless of whether it's NHRA, IHRA, SCCA or NASA. I suppose you could build something that is not even remotely compliant that could be safe for rear passengers (though it would obviously not have a harness bar for front passengers). That kind of design would certainly improve chassis rigidity and overall safety but you'd have the same issue I do - it simply will not be legal. BTW, I'm not saying I agree at ALL with the sanctioning bodies - I don't. But it is what it is, unfortunately.

There has been so much discussion and debate about this subject lately that I honestly don't know what I'd do if I were starting another build right now. I'm VERY concerned that we in the PT community could end up at risk of having to comply with some of these "standards", which will potentially exclude many existing participants.

[shmoov69]

So, what kind of padding should I get for mine that I just installed? Links or anything?

It has got to be better than zero protection in an accident in these old cars without "crumple zones" and all. Especially since we have all modded our cars beyond "factory specs".

[wmhjr]

Lots of debate about this. My own personal opinion is that without a helmet, the cage is more dangerous for both driver and passenger regardless of any padding. That seems to be the general concensus. Padding just isn't up to the task of preventing traumatic head injuries. One of the big problems is that a normally "light" accident can instantly become fatal due to the cage.

My advice would be to do a bunch of hard research and to never consider having a rear seat passenger in a caged car. JMHO. The other thing to consider is that I think it is possible that you may be personally liable for head injuries of passengers not wearing a helmet in a caged car. I've heard discussions where insurance companies deny claims because of the cage. Not sure, and no direct knowledge, so it's something to check out.

[The Stickman]

I think it could be done in some vehicles, but pretty much just 4 door cars. I have looked at doing it with the wagon and see no reason I couldn't just have 2 roll hoops tied together for an extended cage. But yea not practical for most cars.

[MonzaRacer]

OK ill jump in here and say that after watching a guy install a cage in Camaro, the bars were tucked very close to the roof and set wide apart from my view, now would a 6 ft 5in guy sit in back and not hit, no but put same guy in un caged car,, he is dead from asphyxiation anyway. The bars had a heavy pad on them, and then he had a set of velcro held pads that hooked to custom headliner that was above the cage. The complete halo or roof set up and all was built and formed then raised then down bars welded in.
He had some real skill and actually have solid inserts in the connections as he built it, the rear bar across was removable with solid steel "teeth" and slide on tubes t o go over, and those had hidden allen screws to clamp over the toothed connection.
The part that made me like it was it had pretty good clearance and it passed an NHRA tech inspect,,,twice.
As for me if/when I install a cage/roll bar I am figuring on trying to adapt some parts of a Tiger Cage from Ride Tech and even if its turns into a weld in Ill use the bar across the back from them so it can be removed.
While lot of people make quick judgements and express THEIR opinions, I have seen street cars in wrecks with cages well done and honestly if you get hot hard enough in these cars with out a cage or with some your gonna be a lot worse off than the damage from "possibly" hitting the cage bar. and for little kids they would be away from bars anyway.
Using common sense in design should remove a lot of "possible" injury damage. Heck in last few wrecks of former race cars the occupants hit windshields and side glass and not cage bars.
Just some thoughts.

[wmhjr]

Just for facts, let's acknowledge that the "padding" is of about zero value in preventing traumatic head injuries should an unhelmeted head hit the main hoop. I'm not taking liberties - it's about zero effective.

The risk with a cage on the street is not the "ultimate accident". It's a relatively "minor" accident that the cage turns into deadly. Everyone wants to talk about how a cage can make our cars safer in a huge accident. The problem is that you are far more likely to be involved in a less serious accident that you'll normally walk away from, that a cage would not increase your safety, but could easily decrease it. Now, if you're wearing a harness and helmet it's a different story.

People also make some very big (and inaccurate) assumptions about the trajectory of a rear seat passenger in the event of an accident.

Let's just be honest folks. Do what you want, but at least recognize that there is very good reasoning behind why cages are not recommended for non-racing venues, why some insurance companies refuse to insure cars with cages, why some states and countries prohibit their use on public roads. Can you minimize some of the risk? Sure, I guess. And is it a lot of opinion? Sure.

[shmoov69]

Hmmmm...... How do you affix a 4 point harness for the backseat and kids? Where exactly do the mounting points go for the upper?

[nestockcar]

One idea I have been considering is making the rear bars removable using collar clamps and placing a low rear hoop in the "package tray" area for attaching it. Just a concept right now.

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[dj3]

So what is the consensus on roll bars like DSE? Is a DSE roll bar safe for the driver without a helmet? I would like to add roll over protection on my car, but not something that will do more harm than good.

[The WidowMaker]

i personally dont believe that anything is safe without a helmet. if you can touch it with your hand, your head could hit it. i also dont think you could make enough of the cage removable to make it safe. just the harness bar is too much for a back seat passenger. just my .02.

[Jim Nilsen]

So, what kind of padding should I get for mine that I just installed? Links or anything?

It has got to be better than zero protection in an accident in these old cars without "crumple zones" and all. Especially since we have all modded our cars beyond "factory specs".

Allstar Performance has SFI approved padding.BSCI is the manufacture of the padding I use and is ususally the brand you get when you order from most sources no matter the price. They are a sponsor and a very good source for a lot of your needs. Lanes and Motorstate are also their other sources for what you may need. Their service and prices are the best you could ever find along with putting on one of the best events that Pro-Touring has to go to.

Read the specs and safety facts on BSCI padding and you will find that the research to slow the speed of your head when it hits it is based on the rate of deceleration it takes to not let your brain go to one side all at once. It also isn't as hard as most people think, it will compress by your thunb if you push hard.
The facts related to the usual padding a lot of people use renders it only good for looks and the occasional slight bump.

SFI ratings take a great deal to get and the money spent to get it makes a company have to supply a good product and continuous testing of the quality of those materials used to make them.

Hope this helps you find the padding and if you need any help finding it just call them at Allstar and you will get what you need. It's not cheap ,but then a helmet , fire extinguisher and good saftey belts aren't either and you really need them all to be safe and in most cases pass tech.

[71dusterdan]

Well, I took my own advise.... came to the conclusion that I didnt need another single person vehicle. The Harley is enough. So today, I cut the cage out of my Duster! I wanna pro-TOURING car, not a track missile. I want to create memories with my kid and wife, I want air and a ton of sound deadenning, and truth be known, I dont want all the additional interior fab! Now my stock panels can go back in after some updating. It wont be a bunch of contradictory parts and styles. It will be on the lines of a high end German car, and much less streetfighter. it was tough to do, and I wasnt even 100% convinced when I started that 1st cut, but long term it will be for the best.

[wmhjr]

Jim, let's be clear about this, however. SFI approved padding is NOT intended to protect an unhelmeted head from TMI. It is intended to slow the velocity of a PROTECTED head during impact with the bars. It's no different than wrapping a baseball bat with the spec 45.1 or 45.2 padding and having somebody try for a home run using your unprotected skull. It's the right stuff to apply if you have a containment cage or just a halo bar around your windshield, but people should not have a false sense of security that it makes a cage safe for street use without a helmet. There are some folks who like to claim that the padding over the bars meets the "201.U and 302 standards" of the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards. What a joke. Take a look at those standards and you see that they are totally meaningless when discussing rollbars. (http://www.crash-network.com/Regulations/FMVSS/fmvss.html). They have no relevance whatsoever. You'll also note that while BSCI is careful to note that many sanctioning bodies require certified padding for any cage component that the HELMET could come into contact with, nowhere in any of their literature to they even remotely mention not having a helmet. You'd think if they thought it was safe they just might want to market it.... Unless they know they'd be inviting legal armageddon in the event of a single TMI.

I have my bolt in assembly that I would never recommend for normal street use, and would frankly never even drive whatsoever on the street without my full racing seats while the bolt in roll bar is installed. My main hoop is a good bit behind and above my head, minimizing the risk that I could come into contact with it - yet I'm still not crazy about having the bars in when I'm not on the track with my helmet. There is absolutely NO way I'd allow anyone in my back seat with the bars in the car. That being said, everyone should make their own decision - just make sure that it's reasonable facts you're using to decide.

[wmhjr]

One idea I have been considering is making the rear bars removable using collar clamps and placing a low rear hoop in the "package tray" area for attaching it. Just a concept right now.

48329

Steve, not bad. It's similar to mine however, in that it will not pass either NASA or SCCA tech if the really inspect it. The main hoop (which is the 2nd hoop back in this case) must have rear supports that are each: One continuous piece, of the same diameter of the main hoop, with no bends.

Now a question: Why are just those "rear bars" removable? Is that an attempt to protect rear seat passengers or is the whole front assembly bolt out? Trying to figure out what parts are removable and what parts are not.

[Jim Nilsen]

Jim, let's be clear about this, however. SFI approved padding is NOT intended to protect an unhelmeted head from TMI. It is intended to slow the velocity of a PROTECTED head during impact with the bars. It's no different than wrapping a baseball bat with the spec 45.1 or 45.2 padding and having somebody try for a home run using your unprotected skull. It's the right stuff to apply if you have a containment cage or just a halo bar around your windshield, but people should not have a false sense of security that it makes a cage safe for street use without a helmet. There are some folks who like to claim that the padding over the bars meets the "201.U and 302 standards" of the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards. What a joke. Take a look at those standards and you see that they are totally meaningless when discussing rollbars. (http://www.crash-network.com/Regulations/FMVSS/fmvss.html). They have no relevance whatsoever. You'll also note that while BSCI is careful to note that many sanctioning bodies require certified padding for any cage component that the HELMET could come into contact with, nowhere in any of their literature to they even remotely mention not having a helmet. You'd think if they thought it was safe they just might want to market it.... Unless they know they'd be inviting legal armageddon in the event of a single TMI.

I have my bolt in assembly that I would never recommend for normal street use, and would frankly never even drive whatsoever on the street without my full racing seats while the bolt in roll bar is installed. My main hoop is a good bit behind and above my head, minimizing the risk that I could come into contact with it - yet I'm still not crazy about having the bars in when I'm not on the track with my helmet. There is absolutely NO way I'd allow anyone in my back seat with the bars in the car. That being said, everyone should make their own decision - just make sure that it's reasonable facts you're using to decide.


Thanks for making it more clear Bill, I should have noted that the test are made with a helmet on for the time delay in keeping your brain in tact.
I thought a lot about the SFI padding and without a helmet it is better than hitting a bare bar and better than the plain old foam padding from your head splitting open.

I also forgot to add that they now make a 2 stage roll bar padding that has the harder padding under a softer padding to make it a bit more user friendly if you just bump it when getting in and out of the car.

With the accidents I have witnessed over the years and the shape some of the cars were in i would still rather have a cage and no helmet than have the other car rip apart the body of the car and then rip apart my body into pieces too. Either way, getting in an accident that throws you around is not good in older cars and the injuries that can be had are almost always life threatening with or without a cage.

[The Stickman]

Steve, not bad. It's similar to mine however, in that it will not pass either NASA or SCCA tech if the really inspect it. The main hoop (which is the 2nd hoop back in this case) must have rear supports that are each: One continuous piece, of the same diameter of the main hoop, with no bends.

Now a question: Why are just those "rear bars" removable? Is that an attempt to protect rear seat passengers or is the whole front assembly bolt out? Trying to figure out what parts are removable and what parts are not.

I have considered something like Steve posted. The rear hoop would be the same width and height with the rear down tubes going straight to the frame. the tubes connecting the two roll hoops would be pushed out towards the outer portion of the roof by the doors. My seats are pretty far inwards and the car is wide so might be ok.

[wmhjr]

I have considered something like Steve posted. The rear hoop would be the same width and height with the rear down tubes going straight to the frame. the tubes connecting the two roll hoops would be pushed out towards the outer portion of the roof by the doors. My seats are pretty far inwards and the car is wide so might be ok.

It would still not be legal. The main hoop is the main hoop, and the rear support bars must be straight and continuous as well as being directly attached to the main hoop. Adding a second hoop immediately invalidates the design from an SCCA/NASA/NHRA/IHRA perspective.

IMHO you still have the risk of rear seat passengers being thrown forward into one of the hoops. I would not consider it but that's just me.

[The Stickman]

It would still not be legal. The main hoop is the main hoop, and the rear support bars must be straight and continuous as well as being directly attached to the main hoop. Adding a second hoop immediately invalidates the design from an SCCA/NASA/NHRA/IHRA perspective.

IMHO you still have the risk of rear seat passengers being thrown forward into one of the hoops. I would not consider it but that's just me.

Well to be truthful wagons aren't legal in SCCA road racing unless its solo I or II. ANd provided the rear passengers use the 5 point harness properly they should be fine.

[nestockcar]

This concept is not SCCA or any sanctioning body legal for sure.
The rear "hoop" is behind the rear seat and would protrude just enough above the "package tray" to allow connection. Another thought was to also use it as a connection point for rear seat shoulder belts.
Here it is with the removable bars removed:
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[keithq69]

I built a car a while back and added a cage that allowed the use of the back seat.
I installed another halo hoop into the rear area of the car. The back seat was intended for my kids and there is no way they could touch the hoop.
The rear down bars came off behind the rear seat back area so there was no way to touch that bar either.
under the rear package tray I installed a cross bar that had seat belt mounting tabs on it.

You would be way more likely to hit your head on the original sheet metal or side window.

What's your thoughts on this?

Thanks

Keith.

[carguykeith]

That is exactly what my plan is, people don't realize how much restraint a 4-point is over a standard shoulder or lab belt. So as long as you're ok with everyone in the car wearing race harnesses than I think a cage can be safe, even for someone in the back seat. Here is my NHRA legal cage that a single rear seat rider cannot come in contact with even in a hard crash: https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

I have 2 boys and I plan on the three of us doing power tour so I need three safe seats in the car. I've thought about this a lot and have done everything I can to make it safe for all of us. Sure it means a kid is climbing under a bar to get in the back seat and we're all wearing at least a 4 point harness which isn't exactly comfortable but it's as safe as you can make a 600hp race car...

[LSxChevelle]

I found this over on LS1Tech and will probably do the same. A little roll bar padding and passing tech shouldn't be an issue.
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[MrQuick]

That is exactly what my plan is, people don't realize how much restraint a 4-point is over a standard shoulder or lab belt. So as long as you're ok with everyone in the car wearing race harnesses than I think a cage can be safe, even for someone in the back seat. Here is my NHRA legal cage that a single rear seat rider cannot come in contact with even in a hard crash: https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

I have 2 boys and I plan on the three of us doing power tour so I need three safe seats in the car. I've thought about this a lot and have done everything I can to make it safe for all of us. Sure it means a kid is climbing under a bar to get in the back seat and we're all wearing at least a 4 point harness which isn't exactly comfortable but it's as safe as you can make a 600hp race car... I hope your including a Hanns devise too with that cross bar and your kids in the back. You body stretches a lot farther than you would think during a sever impact.

[BonzoHansen]

belts stretch too. harnesses aren't legal to use in the street here in NJ. May also make it hard for them to get out in the event of a fire.

cage = race car, race cars have no back seats. to do so you are compromising both car design and passenger safety, so what is accomplished?

[djorgensen3]

I don't under stand how a cage harness bar is so much worse than a face slamming into the back of a seat. If a person can reach the padded bar, can they not slam into the back of the seat? And how are padded side bars worse than slamming the head into a window or side panel that has metal substructure under it? And if seat belts are istalled correctly, the passenger shouldn't be able to move upward enough to hit an upper bar. I see a lot of people saying it is not safe but I don't see actual evidence of an accident being made worse by having a cage installed. I just see peoples opinions and that's it. I am not discounting these opinions but they are just that....opinions. Flame suit is on....go ahead.

[Vegas69]

Take your pick:

Family cruiser with NO roll cage OR a two seater with a roll bar and inherit risks on the street.

I don't care how you build a roll bar, the back seat is unsafe. I haven't seen it mentioned. Race belts are a bad idea with no roll over protection.

[LSxChevelle]

So what about the removable cross bar? That would be the part I would be concerned a back seat passenger would hit.

I'm not having passengers during spirited drives. Just for actual point a-to-b driving.

[BonzoHansen]

I don't under stand how a cage harness bar is so much worse than a face slamming into the back of a seat. If a person can reach the padded bar, can they not slam into the back of the seat? And how are padded side bars worse than slamming the head into a window or side panel that has metal substructure under it? And if seat belts are istalled correctly, the passenger shouldn't be able to move upward enough to hit an upper bar. I see a lot of people saying it is not safe but I don't see actual evidence of an accident being made worse by having a cage installed. I just see peoples opinions and that's it. I am not discounting these opinions but they are just that....opinions. Flame suit is on....go ahead.

Off the top of my head a seat is not quite as hard, it moves/has some give, and it has a larger surface so the hit is not as concentrated as a rollbar - I having trouble coming up with a good analogy but maybe I’d rather trip and fall face first onto a gravel driveway then face first into a fence post.

I dunno, I’ve talked to enough guys way smarter than me, some OE engineers and some aftermarket safety guys and their positions have always been unanimous on this topic. Good enough for me. I don’t need to see proof, I’m sure those pics are not pretty.

Fire and kids in 4 or 5 point harnesses scares the crap out of me much more than rollover. Ever see where the gas tanks are in old cars?


Take your pick:

Family cruiser with NO roll cage OR a two seater with a roll bar and inherit risks on the street.

I don't care how you build a roll bar, the back seat is unsafe. I haven't seen it mentioned. Race belts are a bad idea with no roll over protection.
Agree 100%.

[LSxChevelle]

Fire and kids in 4 or 5 point harnesses scares the crap out of me much more than rollover. Ever see where the gas tanks are in old cars?

If I had a removable cross bar I would not use a harness for street driving (front/rear). But to the point of the fire safety. That makes it sound like my Chevelle should not be used for family in stock form.

And as far as harnesses...aren't cam-locks even easier to unlock over some stock old belts?

[carguykeith]

Since some of these comments were directed at me specifically I will go ahead and chime in once more, but I'm not getting into some huge flame war. We all know what they say about internet wars...

-To clarify, my kids would ride in this car only while it was being driven at legal speeds on the road system not during any sort of racing.

-The rear occupant would be a 80lb 4ft tall kid in the middle of the rear set in a push button 4-point harness and even taken into consideration a 20% stretch of the belts and a 50% stretch of his neck there is no way his head can contact the crossbar.

-All bars that can come in contact with arms or legs will have SFI 45.1 padding (I've already purchased it just isn't installed as I haven't had a single passenger in the car yet).

-Oh and no hans devise because nobody will be wearing helmets, the foam filled fuel cell (with a tip over valve and fuel pump shutoff) in the trunk is fire walled off from the passenger compartment and lastly the fronts seats have cam locked harnesses so exit is as quick as stock belts.

I'm not saying it's perfectly safe but I am of the opinion that in a crash we would all be as safe as when it was stock. I'd even probably argue it may be safer based on not being just a lap belt for the rear. I due appreciate opinions and would say as a general rule cages and back seat occupants don't go together, but I believe there can be exceptions as long as it's been well thought out and properly executed.

[BonzoHansen]

^^no flame war, it's all good. this seems like a good discussion. I don't think anyone thinks you are racing with your kids in the back or otherwise doing anything other than proper safe driving. We've all seen things that make us cringe. So we discuss.

IMO if there has been a lot of thought involved and someone is still comfortable with everything they have done, it is probably ok and likely 100x better than the cars we've all seen were there is zero thought to safety (not meaning anyone here, I mean in general what we all see in public, at at cruise nights or at the gas stations, etc.). Keith, you have obviously put a lot of thought into it. Having the child in the middle seems to reduce the chance of hitting anything on either side of him, that's good. you see what are normally two seats and think about side to side motion. but that is not your situation anymore.


If I had a removable cross bar I would not use a harness for street driving (front/rear). But to the point of the fire safety. That makes it sound like my Chevelle should not be used for family in stock form.

And as far as harnesses...aren't cam-locks even easier to unlock over some stock old belts?

no. my point was ease of escape. i feel changing the belt setup to something they may only see a few times a year may throw them off when time is short - I'm thinking about kids like my 7 year old, younger kids. I put rear 3 points in my 77 Z28 that came out of a notchback fox body. They are designed to bolt to the package tray, so they are installed just like Ford installed them, plus I reinforced under the package tray so they don't pull out easy. They clasp just like the belts in the cars they are in every day, in the same place. I believe, maybe falsely, that they'd have a better chance undoing those fast than a setup they are not using every day. I can't expect my kids to stay calm and cool under pressure, they are kids. They might, but I can't assume it. that's all I was driving at. Maybe have them practice getting out

Just food for thought.

Edit: I just wanted to clarify all my comments in this thread are based on a sanctioning-body approved roll cage.

[Damn True]

Well to be truthful wagons aren't legal in SCCA road racing unless its solo I or II. ANd provided the rear passengers use the 5 point harness properly they should be fine.

Not accurate. There is a guy who raced a Fairmont wagon in American Iron (Fairmonts are all fox mustang stuff underneath) and there have been a few Volvo wagon's that have competed in various classes.

[Damn True]

Take your pick:

Family cruiser with NO roll cage OR a two seater with a roll bar and inherit risks on the street.

I don't care how you build a roll bar, the back seat is unsafe. I haven't seen it mentioned. Race belts are a bad idea with no roll over protection.

Definitive post. You are absolutely correct. Thanks Todd.

[MonzaRacer]

After an extended discussion with many police/fire and emergency personnel about harness and roll bar/cage, at least here in Indiana I have yet to find a cop or emergency responder who will knock or slam any extra restraint in case of wrecks. And so far I have talked to several hundred as I was deciding on my plan of attack. While I understand sanctioning bodies may not like certain designs I have designed and redesigned a cage for my Monza and reworked it for the Caprice to maintain some integrity in case of a wreck AND in most cases (unless a VERY tall person is in the car) little to no contact can be made with my ideas. From strength side it may not be idea but for "safety" of hitting it under duress of a wreck would be hard pressed. In the Caprice its not hard as the main hoop CAN be integrated into B pillar, and even hold stock style belts AND can be covered up with modified factory plastic. A removable cross bar will be used, and I have wrecked in a car with 5 point mounted to floor and I stayed where I was, in the seat. I never even had to replace seat as the inserts came out of passenger seat but me strapped in kept me and seat in one place.
As for both cars the bars around the roof actually will be part of the car to stiffen it AND protect, may never get certified and would and minimal amount to area installed.
Again, properly integrated, bars and cages CAN be safe, CAN be useful and may not need much more than padding under stock panels to be better design.
As a lot of people say, flame on, but if structure that forms the factory "cage" above my head is reinforced to avoid crushing and stiffen my car, and the factory panels cover them I see little issue over having nothing.
As for rear seats, I have an idea of using the uppers that have the head/helmet restraint so as to limit head movement in accidents and during driving. Being the Monza is so small rear seat occupants are pretty much limited in size.
Every emergency responder I have talked to said they would prefer race harness over stock stuff as the stock stuff is not consistent over models, race harness have very little difference, EXCEPT the push button cam lock types which they love even more.
Oh and I actually have toyed with certain aspects of my hidden system and a form of TigerCage from Ridetech.
now in my Caprice space is less at a premium and I fully intend to use 4 and 5 point systems and I doubt I will have as much issue locating bars enough to make it safe, regardless of certification. Not sure if Ridetech has anything large enough to make work in Caprice so its not an issue till it runs and I can get it down to look at stuff AND measure.
Oh and after asking for reports from emergency personnel the biggest issue was no warning on cars than NEEDED jaws of life to extricate people from caged car, but did not hamper or hurt anyone compared to their profession opinion that it DID save people.
Just thoughts and points I have gathered. Oh and most emergency people say they worry more about stock ancient crap belts over later model new harness.

[dontlifttoshift]

This 11 second clip really makes you think. To be fair, I do not know any of the specifics on this test such as speed, seat belt width, weight of dummy, etc. but just watch it.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K-nQIuiatw

[DRJDVM's '69]

Monza.....I've been thinking along the same lines as you...

I have quite a few friends in law enforcement and work in ER's around the country....not one of them has ever seen injuries from a rollcage in a street car.

All this posturing about how unsafe a cage is on a street car sounds good on paper and seems to make common sense when you think about it, but there are alot of things in life that seem to make sense in theory that just isnt supported by any actual proof or data....how many Mythbuster and Penn and Teller shows have shown that over and over?

Sure, having a steel bar right next to your head is just plain stupid....even in a low speed accident you could wack it.....but having a well designed cage that doesnt have bars near important pieces of your anatomy, can still be done in a street car.

Plus...these arent daily driven cars....just due to the fact that they have low street miles each year, drops the chance of an accident....plus if you do have an accident, it has to happen in a way that makes the cage play a roll in the outcome..... the chances are very low.....

So heres the challenge....with all the data, forums, blogs and everything else out there on the internet....find some form of study or documentation of an injury sustained in a car accident that was a direct result of having some form of cage in a street car....

I'm all about actual data and documentation....you have to prove it to me....not just "well that makes sense"...find me documentation of an accident where someone would have survived or been un-injured, but was, solely because they had a cage in their musclecar....

Flame on.......

[dontlifttoshift]

Yep, and I have had paramedics and cops tell me about accidents where had the occupant been wearing a seat belt they would be dead. That is, the occupants lived because they were NOT wearing their seat belt.

A valid argument can be made for or against almost anything, especially when "facts" are a google search away. Read every thread, study, and report you can find about street/race car safety and draw your own conclusions and hopefully none of us will have to find out if we were right or wrong.

Donny

[MonzaRacer]

I think the issue here will be ,do you trust the parts you use, the installer and have you thought out your install/ I was looking at the roof of my Cavalier as it has not head liner, came without it. And right next to my head is some very serious structure that would hurt just as much as a roll bar,,,maybe even more, but honestly I am more worried about hitting the side window than anything else.
As for my Monza, Ill see what shakes out when I get a new job or get a shop started and finally have some cash rolling in. Then Ill see just how tight I can get a cage in the car.
Honestly I was never worried about getting the car certified as it most likely will hit some "open" days where they let cars run.
But since I have little of the plastics for the interior Ill be scrounging from salvage yards and u pulls to cover stuff up and will most likely hide as much as I can on the street and take interior out for fun runs, to prove I do have some sort of safety equipment.
I tucked the cage in the old Super Gas/Stocker we ran back in 86. 86 Monte ZZ AeroCoupe body in white, the cage was actually out of heavier that required material, welded straight to frame rails, boxed frame, back half by old Richmond Performance Center with Alston Ladder bar set up and coil overs. Big Block, 4 spd 12 bolt! 9s on single 4bbl.
The uprights actually went under the A pillar trim, was above the normal line and actual tied into the roof and was tucked in close to the door latch frames, we had swing out side bars had 6 in "toothed" latch, pipe was spring loaded and it slid up over it very snug, we had to keep them lubed or would rust tight, had one bolt on each side (tubing had sleeve so it wouldnt crush and bolts were counter sunk) the two custom button head bolts through latch area. Heck thought NHRA was going to have a fit when they saw the radio and speakers till the figured out they wouldnt come out without a sawsall.
WE had all lights, wipers, etc and only glass not exposed was door glass, passenger side had lexan up permanent and drivers would slid up and down with a seat belt that latched too door. Two front racing buckets with good cushioned covers and even had all the gauges and lights working. Heck I made door dinger work and started it with key or master toggle switch.
Car was cool and lots of fun and ran like a raped ape as the owner put it. NHRA ent over the cage with flashlights and dentist mirrors,,,couldnt believe we had such a tight fitting cage that was fully welded. Heck the tig welds looked nearly smooth, almost like the cage wasnt welded but was molded that way. WE even had to remove one section of bracing in the trunk and the tech guys thought Iwas crazy , pulled a hacksaw out and cut it out and handed it to them the guy was amazed that we had larger tubing and thicker and he looked inside for the quality of the welds and just walked away. 4 guys were blown away on that cars build.
Only issue it had was first run it stood straight up,,,turns out we had wrong rear springs, guy down the road from us was building a Caddy powered altered, his car wouldnt pass tech as he was too low, his springs were near bottomed out,,,turns out he had out rear springs and we had his fronts. Didnt figure it out till we had car up on stands trying to reinstall rear bumper cover, of all thing Don Garlitts comes up and tells us how to decode our springs,,, then tells us we have front springs in back.
Thinking we were dead in water till next week we walked pits, saw altered, decoded his springs,,,,,haha swapped him springs and we both raced!
Six week in we wreck car, it end overs 4 times, rolls 3 times and lands on wheels, 2 weeks later we are back racing after repairs,,,,frame had ZERO bend damage ,,,cant say as much for the sheet metal,,,,odd thing was rear window was thrown out and landed in puddle,,,in one piece!
Ripped top end off of the Nickey Chevrolet L88427 race block, destroyed block but dindnt even damage the distributor! Well the rod did strip off for air cleaner in carb,,,,.

[Mr Nick]

Yep, and I have had paramedics and cops tell me about accidents where had the occupant been wearing a seat belt they would be dead. That is, the occupants lived because they were NOT wearing their seat belt.

A valid argument can be made for or against almost anything, especially when "facts" are a google search away. Read every thread, study, and report you can find about street/race car safety and draw your own conclusions and hopefully none of us will have to find out if we were right or wrong.

Donny

D@mded if you do, d@mned if you don't type of thing.

My example... If you're a taller person and drive an 04-06 GTO, the door frame pillar is VERY close to your head. I'm 6'6" and my head is 2" from it, I could tilt my head to the side and actually rest my head there while driving if I wanted. I whacked it a few times when I first bought it, not remember to duck my head down getting in and out.

If I ever get hit on the driver side, my head will be contacting that, no doubt.

[mikedc]

My two cents:

It's kind of absurd to declare that it's NEVER safe to ride near a rollcage tube while still considering it acceptable to ride in a lot of 1960s cars in stock form. A lot of them had sheetmetal structures every bit as close to the occupant's heads and every bit as unpadded. At least the rollcage offers some extra intrusion protection in exchange for the head-striking risk. And I'll take even under-strength rollcage padding over a factory vinyl headliner fabric.

This stuff really has to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

[G-Rob]

When RUF made it's CTR based on the Porsche 993, it had an integrated roll bar built in. The tube diameter is way thinner than the normal roll bars people typically think of, but the structure was hidden under thicker a and b pillars. Something to think about. I'm sure there are pics online.

[ace_xp2]

One thing about the proximity of various things to the occupants various parts. You'll find that usually the things that are within striking distance of the occupants are often quite flat and wide, so as to spread out the impact across a large surface area when they start flying all over the place. This is where a roll tube can present a comparative danger, as it represents a fairly small amount of surface area to smack squishy bits on. Typically resulting in broken squishy bits :)

[LSxChevelle]

I think I'll install a 23 point cage and put extra people in the car sharing lap belts and street race! :drive1:

I think it really comes down to a case by case thing... Driving habits, use of car, etc...

[PT Sportwagon]

I believe Rousch racing was able to build a full cage and have the back seat useable. They built the Cobra crown vic for Bondurant instructors that made used of the back seat. I would believe that all the occupants work helmets and worn harnesses.

Tim

[Poopy]

I don't under stand how a cage harness bar is so much worse than a face slamming into the back of a seat. If a person can reach the padded bar, can they not slam into the back of the seat? And how are padded side bars worse than slamming the head into a window or side panel that has metal substructure under it? And if seat belts are istalled correctly, the passenger shouldn't be able to move upward enough to hit an upper bar. I see a lot of people saying it is not safe but I don't see actual evidence of an accident being made worse by having a cage installed. I just see peoples opinions and that's it. I am not discounting these opinions but they are just that....opinions. Flame suit is on....go ahead.


I was going to say the same thing sort of, if a cage is built tight to the body, I can't see the extra 2" of space it takes up being that much worse than a head smashing into the b pillar or anything else metal in the car.

[Poopy]

And this says it all for me....I will take the chance of bonking my head in a street car with a cage vs total disintegration and breaking and crushing my entire body.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJrXViFfMGk

[shmoov69]

I don't buy a vehicle for the safety ratings...... But after thinking about this all, I don't want my little boys in the backseat without a 4 point belt.

[Poopy]

I don't buy a vehicle for the safety ratings...... But after thinking about this all, I don't want my little boys in the backseat without a 4 point belt.

Agreed.

[PT Sportwagon]

I don't buy a vehicle for the safety ratings...... But after thinking about this all, I don't want my little boys in the backseat without a 4 point belt.

Me neither.

Tim

[68camotion]

I have a back seat but mainly for looks since I don't know what I would put in its place.

[uxojerry]

I just joined this forum yesterday and am building a 65 Corvette Coupe from the ground up. In a couple of months, I will be ready to do the interior and want to get opinions on roll cages. The car needs an 8pt cage. Who makes a good cage, but also has the priority of appearance. I want the protection but want it to look nice, as the build cost is very expensive. I dont want to top off a beautiful build with an ugly cage. Opinions are appreciated.
Take Care - Jerry Clements

[Damn True]

I just joined this forum yesterday and am building a 65 Corvette Coupe from the ground up. In a couple of months, I will be ready to do the interior and want to get opinions on roll cages. The car needs an 8pt cage. Who makes a good cage, but also has the priority of appearance. I want the protection but want it to look nice, as the build cost is very expensive. I dont want to top off a beautiful build with an ugly cage. Opinions are appreciated.
Take Care - Jerry Clements

Your profile says you are in Cambodia...

Going to assume the car is being built in the US though.

Find out who is the head tech inspector for your local NASA or SCCA region.
Ask that person for references for cage builders for cars similar to yours.
Visit no less than three from that list and compare what they tell you.

Step #4 is optional but recommended.

Step #4 ignore anyone that attempts to offer advice based on "something they heard from some guy in their town" talk to people who build cages for a living.

[Knoxferatu]

I have a back seat but mainly for looks since I don't know what I would put in its place.

I was thinking of this very point, while reading the thread (great topic). I think a lot of people put the rear seat in place, when a cage is used, just to more easily finish out the interior. I've seen a car, wherein the rear seat was used merely as a way of concealing a prodigious sound system (with an AM radio installed in the dash, to complete the OEM look), and thought it seemed clever and tasteful. In truth, unless you're on the short side in stature, the back seat of a Camaro or Mustang isn't all that hospital, with or without a cage. If you're around 6" tall or taller, the back seat in one of those is pretty much a formality.