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View Full Version : 4 cylinder + turbo = anyone here tried it?



Chevy454
06-23-2005, 07:14 PM
Anyone here have any experience with a turbo on a 4-banger? More specifically, how about an Ecotec 4-cylinder? We have a crusty old Vega that we bought sans engine/trans, and a 4-cylinder with a turbo seems like a natural fit. From what I've read, the Ecotec was over-engineered from GM and can withstand some pretty good power, and I have the GM Tuner book headed my way, but I was wondering if any of y'all here have ever mingled in the realm of hi-po 4-cylinders?

primate
06-24-2005, 07:14 PM
my buddy has an 2005 srt-4 acr and it runs like a somanabish! :D

that has the 2.4 with an intercooled turbo pushing about 14 lbs of boost. 230 hp/250 lb ft of torque gets that lil pocket rocket boogeying.

JJSmitches
06-24-2005, 10:19 PM
What year Vega...I was just checking out this Cosworth Vega and thinking it would be a really interesting project.

RPM Dragracing
06-25-2005, 04:43 AM
I love the oddball stuff, I helped a friend some years back swap a Turbo T-Bird motor and trans into a Pinto, with some basic mods the little car was running high 12's with an automatic. The Vega would be a great candidate for the Ecotec, check out the new supercharged Chevy Cobolt and Saturn Redline motors for a donor. Your right about the Ecotec being overbuilt, they designed a lot of potential into the motor to try to keep up with the japanese cars, VTEC Hondas as an example. The aftermarket has a few kits out there for Turbos and swapping one in should not be all that hard plus GM itself has a ton of stuff also.

Chevy454
06-25-2005, 06:08 AM
What year Vega...I was just checking out this Cosworth Vega and thinking it would be a really interesting project.

Well, that's kinda the neat part...it's an original '71 Yenko Vega, but I just couldn't see how the '71-vintage 140ci 4-banger could make decent power levels and still be reliable without throwing gobs of money at it. I looked at the Cosworth, which has some plusses to it, like a forged crank from the factory (destroked to 122ci, though) and the DOHC for revability, and I looked at the Quad-4 as well...but I kept coming back to the Ecotec. I stumbled onto the Chevy Tuner book, and GM pretty much lays it all out for you on exactly *how* to make power...and from what I'm hearing, with a simple rod/piston swap the engine is good to 500hp! And GM makes it easy, as all the trick parts are available via the GMPP catalog...

I haven't put a pencil to it, but a rough guesstimate in my head tells me this thing will be under 3,000 pounds when it's done...so, it shouldn't take too much power to get it to move at a decent clip...

JMarsa
06-25-2005, 07:03 AM
What tuner book? I like hot fours as well.

--JMarsa

Chevy454
06-25-2005, 07:40 AM
GM Performance Parts sells this book (http://www.gmgoodwrench.com/perfpartsjsp/partlist.jsp?cat=9284&section=pp#88958646) (and CD) that tells you exactly what is needed for different HP levels...0-250, 250-600, and 600 and above. To check it out before buying it, you can download it HERE (http://www.gm.com/company/gmtunersource/html/race_shop_build_book.htm). It's really amazing how tough that little 2.2L is...in fact, I've got a link around here to a GM page where they outline their build-up of an Ecotec over 1,000hp, and to what HP levels the stock parts lasted...

Chevy454
06-25-2005, 09:03 AM
Ok, I found the link to the GM Ecotec power exercise (http://www.year2032.com/ecotec.htm), and I attached the chart found at the bottom of that page that shows at which horsepower levels the stock parts were changed...pretty interesting...

JMarsa
06-25-2005, 10:19 AM
Rob,

Thanks for the info, I'm off to read now ;)

--JMarsa

JL8Jeff
06-25-2005, 01:25 PM
Rob, check out the new motor in the Cobalt SS. I'm hearing some solid dyno numbers from minor tweaks on the supercharged version and they are planning on a turbo version next year I think. I already thought it would make a cool Vega swap.

Chevy454
06-25-2005, 07:38 PM
Was originally thinking of doing a 5 or 6-speed manual tranny for the car, but I'm wondering if I wouldn't be better off going with an automatic? Maybe a 700R-4 or a 4L60E? And an auto would sure make it work better at the track...

Oh, and I've got a FAST efi system headed this way, so I've got that outta the way...

TurboLark
06-28-2005, 06:22 PM
The ecotec is a great little motor. I have 2 in the garage now. One is stock and going into a fiberglass dunebuggy. The other is getting parts collected to build up for around 500hp with a turbo. If you search well, you can find the Ecotec book free to download online. These things can be built to over 1200hp, but nice and reliable to 500-600hp. Check ebay, there have been a large number of motors for sale lately.

Chevy454
06-28-2005, 06:27 PM
Any opinion as to which automatic trans to go with? Built 200R-4? 4L60E?? What configuration you using the 500hp plant in? It's not RWD by any chance is it??

RPM Dragracing
06-28-2005, 09:00 PM
The only one of those two transmissions you can do a straight bolt on with is the 4L60E. You'll need to use the 4 cyl / 2WD S-truck unit. That was the only RWD overdrive auto trans that GM used behind 4 cyl motors. Nearly all the GM FWD engines use the same small rear block pattern including the Caddy Northstar and the Olds Arourra V8's. If you go with a later unit with the removable bell you will have some firewall clearance problems. The earlier units with the integral bell are sleeker and fit easier.
For a trans mount you use a TH400 swap unit with either the correct tailhousing extension or an offset mount, I reccomend the tailhousing though. Obviously you'll need a controller with that also. I reccomend the Powertrain Control Solutions unit. The last option is to use a non electronic 700R4, this was the father of the 4L60E and can be built to handle the same power levels and installs the exact same way.

Feel free to call anytime for more detailed info.

www.rpmdragracing.com (http://www.rpmdragracing.com)

JMarsa
06-29-2005, 06:10 AM
RPM - So your saying the 4 cyl / 2WD S-truck 4L60E will mate up to the the Caddy Northstar and the Olds Arourra V8's?

--JMarsa

Chevy454
06-29-2005, 06:50 AM
Keisler engineering is coming out with an adapter and some bellhousings to mate up a host of GM trannys to the Ecotec...CHECK IT OUT (http://kitcarmag.com/techarticles/general/142_0505_ecocat/)

So I called, and Keisler told me to the production units weren't for sale yet, but *should* be by August...so, I'm going with a 200R4...

RPM Dragracing
06-29-2005, 08:18 AM
JMARSA:

Yes, they all share the same bellhousing pattern. In some cases there is a nee to elongate the flywheel bolt holes but it's better to have a qualified machine shop drill new ones and re-balance the unit. Check out some of the street rodding sites and you'll see the Northstar is very popular. I sell a fair amount of these units to those guy's.

Chevy454
06-29-2005, 08:48 AM
RPM: will the Ecotec only take front drive trannys without an adapter? Best I can tell, since it's so new, that that was the case...but it would be great if otherwise!

956G-Malibu
07-01-2005, 12:34 AM
Im a fan of high-power 4-bangers, I've been hearin alot of good things with the ecotecs, and this topic sure is givin me more insight, gonna learn more about these ecotecs, the power they can produce sounds nice

BRIAN
07-02-2005, 07:03 PM
There is a big QUAD 4 following if you do a search. They support some big HP and are pretty cheap cores.

OHCbird
07-02-2005, 10:35 PM
I'm going to turbo our Solstice's Ecotech after a few months. Now we just have to get the car delivered...

Chevy454
07-03-2005, 05:29 AM
There is a big QUAD 4 following if you do a search. They support some big HP and are pretty cheap cores.
Brian: I originally thought about building a Quad 4...but then I noticed that that several of the Quad-4 guys were doing Ecotec swaps! So, I figured there was a reason the Eco was a popular build...and you can find Eco take out engines cheap all over the place!

Swifster
07-03-2005, 11:23 AM
I might be wrong, but I believe original Yenko Vega's had 350's in them. And not to say 4 cylinders are bad, but Chevy put 4's, 6's, and small 8's in that platform. Might I suggest a 3.8L V-6 with the supercharger (like in the Grand Prix)? You can get these engines complete, including ECM for $1000 to $1500 depending on mileage. You would need a RWD block to transfer the internals from the L67 (compression differences), and horsepower can be pushed past 400 HP.

Another idea would be a 4.3L with a centrifical supercharger (Hot Rod got over 500 HP this way. These engines are in trucks and Caprices and can be found dirt cheap.

Again, not knocking the 4 cylinder idea, just offering another alternative to V-8 power.

Chevy454
07-03-2005, 06:54 PM
I might be wrong, but I believe original Yenko Vega's had 350's in them.
Yep, you'd be wrong! LOL!! Yenko's grand plan was to get Chevrolet to add heavy duty pistons via a COPO to his allotted Vegas so he could put a turbo system on them at Yenko Chevrolet...but the EPA stepped in and told him to do so, he'd have to complete a 50,000 mile emissions test prior to the installation of any kits, and Don Yenko just couldn't handle dumping that kind of money into the package before any were even built. So, he sold the kits over the counter, as well as the Hardy V8 mounts/kits (like everyone else in the country was doing). In fact, the gentleman who had owned our Yenko Vega for the past 30 years had started a V8 swap via a Hardy kit in the early '70s, until the military changed his plans.

And hey Swifster: I see you're into Studes, so you might know my arch nemesis the last couple of years in Pure Stock...he's from down around Muncie, Indiana, and has ran a Stude since the late '50s...does the name "Ted Harbit" ring a bell?

Swifster
07-04-2005, 06:48 AM
And hey Swifster: I see you're into Studes, so you might know my arch nemesis the last couple of years in Pure Stock...he's from down around Muncie, Indiana, and has ran a Stude since the late '50s...does the name "Ted Harbit" ring a bell?

I've heard a lot about Ted (all good :) ) since joining the Studebaker Drivers Club (SDC). I've never met him, but I'm hoping to at the next Pure Stock Drags later this year. When I'm done with the current project, I want to do a '64 Challenger similar to George Krem's Plain Brown Wrapper (more of a restification).

Chevy454
07-04-2005, 08:26 AM
Ted is a class act all the way...we've had some good battles over the years with him driving George's R3...in fact, I was the one with the yellow Yenko Camaro opposite the Plain Brown Wrapper in the "My Classic Car" shootout...another ironic sidebar, Ted and the "Chickenhawk" were parked next to dad and our Harrell funny car at the Indy Concourse D'Elegance a couple weeks ago...

Swifster
07-04-2005, 08:44 AM
I'm looking forward to the event. I haven't been there but have penciled in. Meeting Ted and seeing George's Challenger would be a large bonus. I'll look for the Yenko too :) .

1971ssls1
07-04-2005, 08:50 AM
[QUOTE=primate]my buddy has an 2005 srt-4 acr and it runs like a somanabish! :D

that has the 2.4 with an intercooled turbo pushing about 14 lbs of boost. 230 hp/250 lb ft of torque gets that lil pocket rocket boogeying.


for the hell of it, we test drovge one of those and it maxed out at 122 mph. lol

BRIAN
07-06-2005, 06:54 PM
Is there a 1/2 a SBC (4cly) called a SCAT? or something? I know I heard about it somewhere. They were actually used in some type of race car. Sounded interesting for smaller project I just do not remeber the details.

Chevy454
07-06-2005, 09:09 PM
Doesn't ring a bell with me, but I believe the Iron Duke 4-cylinder will accept a SBC head...?

JMarsa
07-07-2005, 12:45 PM
Used in Midgets I think. I looked into them once, not cheap as I recall.

Here's a pic I stole from http://www.kinsler.com/m_manifolds.htm

As you can see it's a V-4 set-up.

--JMarsa

Kenova
07-08-2005, 05:42 PM
I think this might be more along the line of what Chevy454 was thinking of;
http://www.racingjunk.com/exec/ca/view/453013/BADASS-KRP-RACE-MOTOR--TURBOCHARGED--BIG-HP.html
I just bought a Vega, so I find this engine rather interesting :hmm:
Ken

TurboLark
07-27-2005, 07:43 AM
If you are looking for hipo Ecotec parts look at saturnmotorsports.com . That is Jim Eplers place. He runs an Ecotec in a sandrail that has somewhere around 1200hp.
I just bought Eagle h beams and arp head studs off of ebay for my Eco. Now I need some wiseco pistons and a cometic headgasket. :)

Foudie
07-27-2005, 12:45 PM
I have always loved vegas, I just think they have great lines. If done right they make a pretty sweet looking ride. Here is my .02....what about a 3.8 V6 Turbo Grand National motor? I had an '86 with some Kenne Bell upgrades. It was quicker than my super built up 5.0.

Brad

Chevy454
07-27-2005, 12:54 PM
Hey, I'm as big of a fan of the 3.8 turbos as anyone, but Yenko's original vision was of a turbo'd 4-cylinder...granted, it was the wussy 140ci 4-banger of way back when, so I'm trying to keep the original theme...

BTW: thanks for the link to saturnmotorsports..com

OHCbird
07-28-2005, 06:38 PM
A turbo'd Eco in the Vega would be the way to go- light, light, light. Oh yeah- the Eco would make plenty of power, all day long. All the other stuff would be cheap (relative, right?). You might actually avoid the excessive oversteer of putting an SBC or V-6 up there.

Chevy454
08-05-2005, 01:06 PM
That's exactly what I'm thinking, OHC...anyone have a rough guesstimate on what a '71 Ecotech equipped Vega with all the trimmings (turbo, 200-4R) would weigh? I'm a drag racer at heart, but the thought of a *streetable* turbo'd 4-banger putting on a show the drag strip keeps going through my mind...

Would a conservative guesstimate of 400hp and 2800lbs. make for a decent play toy? And maybe even Power Tour??

Kenova
08-07-2005, 06:42 PM
Oh boy, just when I had my mind made up, this thread comes along. :pat:
Years ago, I bought a '77 Astre for a winter car. Four cylinder with auto tranny :barf: Got married, had kids, outgrew the car and sold it. A month ago, I bought a '77 Vega off of a friend. Four cylinder, auto tranny :barf: pristine sheet metal and only 29,000 miles.
Just about any Vega I have seen lately has a first gen. 350 in it. So I figure buy time I'm ready for an engine swap, there should be a few gen III L33s (aluminum block 5.3) in the wreckers.
Now this! I'll be up front, I really don't care for four cylinder engines. But at the same time, the ones I've owned (see above :barf: ) haven't been the best, and technology has come a long way since '77. I love the smoothness and torque of an eight cylinder (especially the new ones), but the light weight and high output of a turbo Eco is certainly hard to ignore.
Maybe if I ditched the auto tranny and went with a five speed........
Ken

TurboLark
08-09-2005, 10:13 AM
That's exactly what I'm thinking, OHC...anyone have a rough guesstimate on what a '71 Ecotech equipped Vega with all the trimmings (turbo, 200-4R) would weigh? I'm a drag racer at heart, but the thought of a *streetable* turbo'd 4-banger putting on a show the drag strip keeps going through my mind...

Would a conservative guesstimate of 400hp and 2800lbs. make for a decent play toy? And maybe even Power Tour??
Ok, a 2800lb Vega is a pig! Should be no problem being under 2500lbs easy. You can build a stock Eco with a turbo, but you will be limited to low boost and around 300hp.
Either way, it would be alot of fun.

dhardison
08-09-2005, 11:22 AM
My daily driver is a 4cyl turbo ('04 SRT4). I just picked it up new about a month ago. I've never been much of a FWD 4cyl fan, but this little rocket has opened my eyes. I LOVE the turbo (1st one I've ever owned). It has me thinking of ways to drop the compression on my 454 so I can add some boost to that as well.

http://www.danhardison.com/srt4/

Dan

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2005/08/DSC01273JPG-1.jpg

Chevy454
08-11-2005, 01:18 PM
You can build a stock Eco with a turbo, but you will be limited to low boost and around 300hp.
I *hope* our Eco will be a bit north of the 300hp mark...still trying to decide on a horsepower goal...

Fuelie Fan
08-22-2005, 06:22 AM
I just bought an ecotec for myself two days ago, to put in a sandrail. I'm going to start with the stock ecu and then hopefully get our ecu working on it before long.

TurboLark
08-22-2005, 09:41 AM
I just bought an ecotec for myself two days ago, to put in a sandrail. I'm going to start with the stock ecu and then hopefully get our ecu working on it before long.
The stock ecu is suposed to be a mess to clean up the harness. Also, not really anything out there to tune it, so gotta stick with a stock motor(or very close to it). For around 1250.00 you can get the Delphi MEFI4 system totally setup for the Ecotec.

Fuelie Fan
08-23-2005, 02:32 AM
Well, I'm going to leave it stock for now, as I can't really justify dumping a lot into my sand rail while both my truck and nova linger in mediocrity, not to mention other expenses. Plus, even though it's a pain, I will learn a lot from starting with the stock harness. I don't want to go MEFI because I don't have the software to tune it either. Like I said, after I have learned all i can from the stock ecu, it will come off and ours will replace it, and then hopefully we can start selling it as a tunable alternative to the MEFI that's totally plug and play, unlike other which require either MSD ignition and/or a custom crank wheel. A turbo will follow soon thereafter :)

TurboLark
10-04-2005, 12:02 PM
and then hopefully we can start selling it as a tunable alternative to the MEFI that's totally plug and play, unlike other which require either MSD ignition and/or a custom crank wheel. A turbo will follow soon thereafter :)
I'm going to be using the Haltech e6x. No need any ignition or crank trigger changes with it.

Fuelie Fan
10-05-2005, 12:37 PM
Really? Crapola. Well, maybe people will still be interested if we supply pre-calibrated base maps? I'll have to check what Haltech systems are going for and what they come with...I start messing with my ecotec this weekend :)

TurboLark
10-06-2005, 07:45 AM
Really? Crapola. Well, maybe people will still be interested if we supply pre-calibrated base maps? I'll have to check what Haltech systems are going for and what they come with...I start messing with my ecotec this weekend :)
Bought mine for 1200.00 with the unterminated harness and the needed sensors, plus, they will give me a base map specific to the ecotec once I get it together.

JMarsa
10-09-2005, 06:48 PM
What trans are you using in the sandrail? Are you using the Ecotec transversley or mating it to a VW type trans?

Regards,

--JMarsa

TurboLark
10-10-2005, 11:21 AM
What trans are you using in the sandrail? Are you using the Ecotec transversley or mating it to a VW type trans?

Regards,

--JMarsa
I am bolting it to a bus IRS trans. The bus is the minimum you can use for strength with a 175hp Eco. And even then they can blow out ring and pinions if you dump the clutch regularly.

Fuelie Fan
10-13-2005, 08:11 AM
I'm probably going to do the same. I have the stock ecotec 5 speed, and I'm still considering using it, but my frame is irs and the arms are totally in the way of where the engine is. If i had a mid-engine frame, or even a swing axle frame, I think it would be a lot easier to get the 5 speed to work. I'm not sure i have the time (or skill) to fab a 4 link and modify or fab the uprights and shafts when an VW adapter is a short phone call away.

Of course another issue, even if i got it to fit, is I don't know if the gearing would be at all appropriate for the sand.

protour_chevelle
10-13-2005, 12:49 PM
Have you thought about going with Megasquirt?

-Matt

Fuelie Fan
10-17-2005, 11:20 AM
hehe, no, i work for a competing fuel injection company, so a megasquirt is not in my future. I want to run the stock one just long enough to learn what i need to learn, then I'll pull it off and run one of ours.

shearer
10-27-2005, 06:55 AM
Sorry for digging somewhat old threads up, but have you considered going with a Mitsubishi 4g63 turbo motor? 400hp is easily obtained with a stock motor, factory ECU, piggyback computer, small turbo upgrade, fuel injectors, and a fuel pump. A friend just made 403hp/395ft lbs with a junkyard 138k mile motor. They are capable of much more if you are willing to spend some extra cash.

Chevy454
12-14-2005, 07:19 PM
From what I gather, the Ecotec should be able to handle 300-400hp without too much trouble as well...plus, it would make my trans options down the road a little simpler, and I'd like to keep the car all Chevy! LOL!!

But I do have an off the wall question...this car will *hopefully* be a street cruiser with the capability to crank up the boost and be a decent strip bruiser...how feasable is a dual fuel system? Say, on low boost levels we're running on the normal tank full of pump gas, then when it's play time and we crank the boost up a seperate fuel tank/system with some high-octane kicks in an additional set of injectors? We have a FAST efi system, but is that gonna be terribly complicated, or are there better ways ot do what I'm wanting? A "Drag Week" type car is kinda what I'm envisioning with this thing...

JMarsa
12-15-2005, 07:38 AM
Rob,

Check out this post here:

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11141

Which is about Wheel to Wheel doing a duel fuel build on thier Nova project.

http://www.w2wpowertrain.com/t-novabuild-2.aspx

There's more info on LS1tech.com here:

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=391008

Pay attention to the posts by "427". Kurt know's a thing or two.

--JMarsa

calereeves
12-15-2005, 07:38 AM
I am bolting it to a bus IRS trans. The bus is the minimum you can use for strength with a 175hp Eco. And even then they can blow out ring and pinions if you dump the clutch regularly.



have you considered using a Porsche transaxle? I have a 68 VW Beetle that I was going to throw a turbo Mazda rotary engine in. I went with a 914/01 transaxle that will definitely handle some power. Plus, its a 5-speed!

Chevy454
12-15-2005, 06:11 PM
Thanks for the links JMarsa...I see the w2w guys referenced using the BS3 to control the dual sets of injectors...being a 4-cylinder, I've got enough wiring and such available with the stock unit, but is the FAST efi unit capable of controlling it all and doing what I want it to? Would a simple water/methanol injection system make as much power, or would the dual injector system be the way to go??

TurboLark
01-10-2006, 07:26 AM
have you considered using a Porsche transaxle? I have a 68 VW Beetle that I was going to throw a turbo Mazda rotary engine in. I went with a 914/01 transaxle that will definitely handle some power. Plus, its a 5-speed!
The 914 is a midengine trans isnt it? I was looking for a Porsche 930 trans, but had no luck. There is a company beefing those up, but at 8000.00 I didnt consider it.

76-cosworth-z09
09-23-2009, 02:24 PM
do a search for an ecotec chevette... some guy (dafabricator) is building a 2.0 ecotec turbo(solstice) in his 83 chevette pretty nice, been following that fourm wnating to do the same with my vega but wiring seems to be realy big issue ECU needs to many sensors hooked up for engine to run..

MonzaRacer
09-23-2009, 09:33 PM
Well local fella has a Fiero with 2.3 Quad 4 turboed making 720 to tthe rear wheels, his brother has a near stock Ecotec pushing 600 on turbo in some small car and the Fiero guy has a second car with a Frankenstein 2.4(now making 2.9) Twin cam minus the balance shaft and using a much modded 2.3 GMPP/Bowtie head and twin spools pushing 1310 at the rear wheels.
I really would like to see a Quad/Twin Cam in a Hbody.
I have still been thinking of either a Quad 4 or a Northstar/Aurora conversion on my Monza but still think 283 twin turbo would be fun.
Oh hey fuelie fan THERE IS NO COMPETITION TO MEGASQUIRT.
Show me your open source brand that lets everyone work on it.
I have put several of these on and had near ZERO issues except in a few minor adaptations.
Oh and most were well under $1000 completely done.
Had one fella with a Big Squirt 3 that never ran for more than a day without something messing up, now it took us 7 hours to unpack, fully assemble and install and except for a cheap a$$ temp sensor that drove us nuts it ran at first hit of key and we had only about 20 minute of minor adjustment needed. I have yet to find anything that was as easy to set up and cost effective.
Oh and instead of customer service we got on forums and 3 people gave us answer about what was blowing right past our tires eyes never saw,,,at 3:30 am!
Oh well, My vote is for a Quad/Twin Cam mill, those things built can spin 8000+rpms!

Procharmo
10-26-2009, 10:23 AM
I'm over the pond in the UK. The home of 4 pot turboed motors!!!!
I spoke to some engine builders whilst attending an illegal drifting meet in Crystal Palace London. They said most of the 4 cylinder Ford and Vauxhall 1.6, 1.8 litre lumps can take 300hp after which you need stronger crank, rods, bearings and pistons. After 450hp you need a stronger block.
I thought my stock GM 350 V8 could take 600 hp and I was wrong.
It did, but not for long. If I were you I'd pray that if you break it you can salvage the top end and just buy a new stronger bottom end.

V8, V6, Straight 4, it just depends on how far you wanna take it and how much you wanna spend!!! The rules don't change! Just the horse power and the cash!!!!!$$$$££££.