What do you do when your product is knocked off?

[Ringbrothers]

I think that we have kept quiet long enough. We would like everyone to know that Ringbrothers DID bring the first billet hood hinges to the market. Once they were quickly knocked off Mike and Jim came out with a new design to set us apart for all of the copies on the market. In NO WAY are we private labeling for the company below that blatenly ripped off our design not once but twice.
Mike and Jim are car builders first - so they know what it takes to make a product that works. When you are looking for hood hinges please keep in mind that development and prototyping cost a lot of money - reverse engineering is little to no cost.
I guess we should feel honored that someone would copy EXACTLY what we design (twice) becuase they can't come up with it on their own. The only problem is I get calls weekly of not daily that the knock off's product doesn't work. Please support original innovators in the industry.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/07/FeslerKnockOff-1.jpg

[dontlifttoshift]

What do you do? Exactly what you just did, make sure everyone knows that the product was yours first.

Some peoples idea of R&D is rob and duplicate.....it is not acceptable.

Donny

[Blown73]

Wouldn't it make sense to have a cheaper product if it were RE'd? Not more expensive such as the hinges in question.

[dhutton]

I've spent over 30 years in product development/engineering and although it seems unfair this is just normal product life cycle. When you first introduce something new and innovative profits and margins are high (at least they should be). Eventually competition comes on board followed by price erosion as each tries to maintain/gain market share. The best way to survive is to find lower cost ways to manufacture the product to help maintain margins. That and moving on to the next great new idea which starts the cycle all over again. In essence this is what you did when you introduced your geometric version. No one can expect to have a market all to themselves forever. Sooner or later someone notices your success and wants a share.

I know this is not what you are wanting to hear but this has been my experience/observation.

[rwhite_692]

Putting all emotional elements aside: Did you patent your design?

If you didn't, then, you did not take the steps needed, to protect it. End of story.

There is also no way to prove that the competitor did not simply have the same idea or refinement of an existing idea, as you did.

This is the reason that my company (Semiconductor Co) patents almost everything that we do. If you saw the lengths to which competitors will go to copy competitors designs in this industry, you would (probably) not believe it.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

[sarcasm: ON] isnt copying the finest form of flattery? [/sarcasm: OFF]

man ive been saying if for the LONGEST TIME.. nothing worse than a BITER.

make your OWN design.. or if your gonna take.. take... then change it up!


what would I do?...


punch em the **** out...

thats what I would do, not to Fesler or whatever.. not saying you should..

but thats about all you would get outta it.

[texasdvldog]

Can u tell us who is duplicating your design??

[Bryce]

I've spent over 30 years in product development/engineering and although it seems unfair this is just normal product life cycle. When you first introduce something new and innovative profits and margins are high (at least they should be). Eventually competition comes on board followed by price erosion as each tries to maintain/gain market share. The best way to survive is to find lower cost ways to manufacture the product to help maintain margins. That and moving on to the next great new idea which starts the cycle all over again. In essence this is what you did when you introduced your geometric version. No one can expect to have a market all to themselves forever. Sooner or later someone notices your success and wants a share.

I know this is not what you are wanting to hear but this has been my experience/observation.


Exactly. I work for an aerospace company. We have the best designs in the market as well as the lightest. We dont always get the bid. But we have strived to have the leanest manufacturing. Now we usually have the cheapest product too. Win win win.

It sucks that someone copied.

[Bryce]

Can u tell us who is duplicating your design??



I am guessing since Ringbrothers started the thread and it includes a picture of fesler, its fesler who is being accused of copying by ringbrothers.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

its pretty obvious, Armando..

[MyFriendScott]

I've spent over 30 years in product development/engineering and although it seems unfair this is just normal product life cycle. When you first introduce something new and innovative profits and margins are high (at least they should be). Eventually competition comes on board followed by price erosion as each tries to maintain/gain market share. The best way to survive is to find lower cost ways to manufacture the product to help maintain margins. That and moving on to the next great new idea which starts the cycle all over again. In essence this is what you did when you introduced your geometric version. No one can expect to have a market all to themselves forever. Sooner or later someone notices your success and wants a share.

I know this is not what you are wanting to hear but this has been my experience/observation.

Amen. This is business in general around the world. Only patents can protect your designs in your own country, and only for so long. Either create products that no one else can create because they don't have the tooling or materials, or be prepared for competition to copy designs and compete. With that out of the way, if I do ever get around to spending $600+ on hood hinges (not likely), I will remember who took their product to market first.

[slowcamaro]

I agree, as much as it sucks all you can do is innovate, sell, profit and repeat while trying to stay ahead of the curve. Provide a good product and quality customer service and the better company will stay around in the long run.

[bret]

As we have discussed before...they can only copy what they have already seen. As bittervascit seems in the short term, channel your efforts into producing more applications and refining designs. Any other path ( including patents) is a negative waste of precious energy.

[gkring]

I did see Ringbrothers in the new Summit catalog. They are pretty good about private branded chinese knockoffs so the fact that they chose to showcase your products I take as a good thing. May just be they haven't found the cheaper version yet. People may not pay for the name, but they will pay for the quality.

[andrewb70]

I will affirm the idea that innovation is the key to staying ahead of competition. Don't underestimate the "first mover" advantage and always strive to lower the cost of manufacturing as much as possible.

Andrew

[Mr. Anderson]

The company I work for created the first billet aluminum hood hinge some 20 years ago and it was just a reworked version of a Studebaker hinge.

Advertise yourself as the original and people who respect that will buy your product and not the competitors.

[CraigMorrison]

Is Fesler no longer on here? I'm surprised this discussion is this civil!

Keep innovating - copycats can only copy what they have seen. Or make the quality so good, there will only be one logical choice.


BTW- our teflon coated, billet inconel hinges with helium gas charged struts will debut at Louisville. ;)

[sunkistcamaro]

that sucks! I am a Mechanical Engineer and understand R&D work and cost.
Reverse Engineering has its place but should not be used like a photo copier.
Love your work and I have lots of respect for your craftsmanship.

[novaderrik]

billet hood hinges is such an obvious thing- i remember wondering about 20 years ago why someone didn't make replacement aluminum hood hinges for old cars.

[JohnUlaszek]

I am surprised it took this long. At what they sell for, it's just too juicy a target for some offshore CNC shop.

DSE's offset shackles were copied, if I remember correctly, within a year.

Not to say the copies are of the same quality.

[Bill Howell]

Mike call me, I want to buy a set of original Ring Brothers Second Gen Firebird hinges. I will pay more for quality and originality.

[MrQuick]

For a product such as this it is very tough to get a patent for. It basically an existing product redesign.
This has been done so many times in this business....DSE arms and shakels, Wayne Due/AME C5 suspensions, Marquez tail lights,
Its a hard call but as an inventor here is what I do.

Create a product, see how cheap I can build it. Then flood the market with it. Make it known as your product. Sure copies will come but then you can drasticly drop your price to cut the other guy out of the business. Most times they will either move on to another product or go chapter.

We all know who was first. Its up to the consumer to make the right choice. Sadly its about integrety with some but price line for most.

[westoz]

If I knew Ring Brothers brought the product to market place I wouldn't have bought a set of Feslers!!

[terrydmorgan]

Protect your products. Consult with a patent attorney before you introduce your next product. A design patent might have been a good idea in this case. That said, I just ordered a Ring Brothers Air Frame hood hinge for my '69 Camaro. Can't wait to install it!

[TT302Z28]

Ok, since you asked....if you really wanna do it right then you call this guy!

Mark Joseph Kenney
Chairman, Severson & Werson
One Embarcadero Center #2600
San Francisco, CA 94111
Direct: (415) 677-5505
[email protected] www.severson.com

Mark Kenney has won many patent and product knock off lawsuits in federal court for my father over the years. This is absolutely who you call.

You may not have patented your concept but coping someone's design 2x will be grounds for damages.

[Fesler built]

** WARNING - LONG POST **

Hello everyone, it is Carrie Fesler. . . Chris’ wife. Chris would love to respond personally but he is currently behind the wheel of our show rig driving us and our displays to MN. So for now, I will have to do.

First and foremost, I would like to thank Ring for posting our newest advertisement on the front page of this thread. . .complete with our website and phone number.

Second, I hope this (what is now a) 6-page thread was able to mend the hearts, pride and minds of Mike and Jim Ring. I can’t imagine going through life or trying to run a business with stuff like this getting under your skin.. . .especially with what is out there right now. Hopefully all the well wishes and pats on the back will be enough to get them through.

Third, Bob said it best in his other message board post. I could have not summed it up better (of course I will be forced to try) or with better examples. It is disappointing though that no one really acknowledges (even the administrators) his post or the accuracy of it. Instead, the fingers keep typing without absorbing anything other than what fits their vindictive minds. To refresh everyone’s memory. . .

I started thinking about what you wrote Matt.
On my Camaro I have the old style Ringbrothers Hinge. It has the shock pointing downward. Also my early version has an adjustable link that tie the 2 arms together (they stopped doing that) . These were the only Hinge at the time of purchase. attachment 1.

I did a search here for when Fesler announced his hinge summer of 2007 this thread.
http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=10434

Looking at the pictures you can see that his hinge is more then a 10% difference. The base is different, his shock placement is different, the arms are different.

The weird thing is that now Ringbrothers changed the camaro hinge to a base and shock position that look more like the Fesler ones. attachment 2.


Fourth, I know I would never be able to leave this post with just that so I will defend us with the following facts. . .
Fact 1: Ring Brother did create the first billet hood hinge for both the 67-69 Camaro and 64-66 Mustang. For comparison purposes, I will be referring to the Camaro hinge since that is the one everyone is moaning about. Just as Bob stated, when Ring first introduced their hinge their base was quite a bit larger than it is now and their strut came down at roughly a 45-degree angle. They also used a heim joint. . .not a dogbone.

Fact 2: Fesler (in 2007) approached Ring with a 1970 Chevelle hood hinge which we had designed for a customer’s car. We had no interest in manufacturing hood hinges and thought Ring would be the best choice to approach with our design to see if they would be willing to private label our design for us just as they were doing for DSE (which by the way was the first company to SELL billet hood hinges). It was shocking to learn that Ring had zero control over their manufacturing process and simply subbed the work out to small production shops. It was also disappointing to learn that they had no interest in creating parts for the Chevelle market since it was, according to them, a soft market with little chance of selling. Left with no other choice and believing that the Chevelle market was worth entering, we stepped up, bought the necessary machinery and began manufacturing what is now known as the 708 hood hinge for 69-72 Chevelles. A hinge that Ring now offers coincidently.
So, after being snubbed by these supposedly coolest and most down to earth people ever we continued to expand our line by re-engineering the Camaro hinge to operate correctly, alleviate the firewall rubbing from the angled arm and discontinued the use of the inadequate and dangerous heim joint and replaced it with our dogbone that we copied from our dog’s name tag hanging from his collar. We also managed to increase the hood opening by more than 6 additional inches with the new “horizontal strut” design. It does not take a genius to figure out what type of strut position Ring’s hinges are in now or that their magical, necessary heim joint has disappeared from their design.
With that being said, let’s address the air frame or geometric design. I am a business. The end goal of any business is to make money. If it wasn’t, it would be called a hobby, not a business. So, knowing that we are a business, we are here to make money. Those of you who know us already know that we decide what product to make by how many requests we get from the public. This determines the order in which we design, prototype and manufacture new products. If people constantly ask me for a product I do not have, you can bet your britches I am going to offer it. I highly doubt Ring turned away any customers who wanted SS struts instead of their black Lucid struts back when they did not offer SS. I bet they found a way to find and sell what their customers were asking for.

Fact 3: Fesler designed, prototyped, manufactures and sells right around 29 first gen Camaro specific products along with an additional 14 or so universal parts that will fit the Camaro. Ring, according to their website as of today offers right around 8 products specific to the first gen Camaro. I don’t think it is necessary that I go on and on comparing products but it is obvious that Ring has come out with product similar to ours after we have initially introduced them.

Fact 4: Fesler is a business and because of the overwhelming positive feedback and requests for new products we are now a serious manufacturing facility. Ring are car builders, and great ones at that, who supplement their builds with sales of some of the products they have designed for customer cars. I am only assuming this is their position and I may be wrong but from what I observe, Ring seems far more committed to continuing to build their impressive, award winning projects than they do to creating a massive line of billet parts. It’s hard to do both.. . we know.
We are so committed to manufacturing that we spend stupid amounts of money to attend SEMA every year and display our products in our own booth. Other companies do not “pony up” per say for that position, they simply share space with other, larger exhibitors to avoid the real cost of operating, displaying and advertising as a real manufacturer. These are the reasons General Motors along with other reputable companies such as Baer Brakes, OER, Chris Alston’s Chassisworks, Ididit, Asanti, PRC, just to name a few have recognized our efforts and dedication to producing a quality product. It’s not like we pull this stuff out of thin air, we work hard for products and the recognition we receive.

Fact 5: In reference to being called out one year at SEMA, yes there was incident involving Fesler and Marquez. I can only imagine what the story is now, years later, regarding this event but the fact of the matter remains that the incident was a heated discussion that turned angry when one individual felt it necessary to refer to someone’s wife as an “F-ing Stupid B!t@^”. As you can imagine, that didn’t go over well. Other than that, the conversations we have with Marquez are our business and unless he feels it necessary to include all of you, I simply will not go there. Of course I will be accused of avoiding the situation and not explaining or answering to your questions, however, it is none of your business and is irrelevant to the question at hand.

Fact 6: Fesler has been banned from all future Goodguy’s event. . . voluntarily. This resolution was mutual between the Goodguy’s organization and Fesler. If you were not there, then you don’t know what happened. Plain and simple we were bored of the price increases, favoritism, and decreasing spectator and participant attendance. It costs money to attend shows, set up, man the booth and leave a running business so the ROI (return on investment) has to be there for it to be worth it. Simply said, Goodguy’s wasn’t working for us anymore. So we moved on. We are still attending shows, just not on the Goodguy’s circuit.

Finally, both Chris and I have the utmost respect for Ring Brothers (or at least we did until this post) and Marquez design. All of these guys are great designers and truly stand out in this industry. We have never disputed that. . .ever. Just because we have our differences, doesn’t mean we still cannot respect each other. These message boards are so full of people picking fights and others joining whatever cause make them feel slightly better about themselves. If you are not in the manufacturing business, then personally I don’t feel you are qualified to even have an opinion. Just because you read about it on the internet, doesn’t make it so.

I am over the he said, she said drama. I have no interest in pointing fingers and any attempts to say I did so are pure ignorance on the person who dares. The market is big enough for everyone, even the ones that don’t do it right. Competition is what drives any market and if you don’t believe me, pay attention to some advertising heavy hitters like Coke vs Pepsi or Chevy vs Ford or Kleenex vs Puffs.

Buy the brand you like based on what you know personally. That is a decision I can understand and respect.

Until next time. . . happy motoring.

[andrewb70]

That should about wrap this up. I am also moving this thread to the "feedback" forum. If either Ring or Fesler wish to add anything else, please PM me and I will open the thread again.

Andrew