View Full Version : MY new AFR heads
jonny51
06-22-2005, 11:15 AM
I just thought I would pass along my AFR experience.I received my Afr heads along with all my other engine parts on Saturday.Being so overwhelmed with all the parts I didn't get to inspect every part.When I got home and went through all my parts, I realized there was something wrong with the heads.It looked like somebody took a grinder to the front of each head(it is deep so a simple polish wont fix it,it needs to be milled).I called my AFR dealer and he said that they only machine them so far so you won't have a problem mounting your accessories.I decided i would call AFR myself to whats really going on.
I called AFR Monday morning and asked to speak with somebody in customer service.I got a customer service rep named Jason and explained my situation.I told him it was going on a high dollar car that needed to look good and these heads just didn't look very good.He replied with "we do not care about how they look we build them for racing and power".I said well I have seen other people run your heads and none looked like these.He replied with "well the big block heads and ls1 heads have a different casting".I said that I have seen SBC AFR heads that look better heck I have never seen this poor of work on any head.I said to him so your telling me I'm screwed?He said this "We know its a problem and we are going to address it in the future but not anytime soon"(so they admit the product isn't up to par).He then went on to say that the only thing he could do for me was too have me go to a dealer and trade them! I replied that no dealer is going to trade me a better looking set and he agreed,go figure.So I said so there is nothing your going to do,he replied with "there is nothing I can do".I told him I wont be running your product then,his reply was "okay".
That's my story just wanted to vent.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2005/06/de8f-1.jpg
i dunno looks alright to me? so what are there swirl marks or something?
6'9"Witha69
06-22-2005, 11:29 AM
i dunno looks alright to me? so what are there swirl marks or something?
I think he is referring to the cast part in the uper middle of the face. It almost looks like a stck GM head from the 60's/70's. It doesn't look pretty.
all of the small block castings look like that, kinda dark gray and stone looking, thats just the way they look
6'9"Witha69
06-22-2005, 11:36 AM
My DARTs look great and I have seen AFRs without that casting on the face. It makes me wonder if they machined it enough. If they didn't, it would make accessory alignment a bi#ch. My 0.02.
malihoochie
06-22-2005, 01:25 PM
Are both like that? Could you put the "ugly" one so that face is towards the firewall?
Dart machines the ends totally flat like 6'9" said - so maybe thats the better choice - I feel the Darts are the better head anyway. Good luck with whatever you do.
jonny51
06-22-2005, 01:44 PM
Its like that on both heads.Its not really about fixing it, its about there lack of customer service and how they treat there customers.Not to mention they said it was a problem they are going to address.
zbugger
06-22-2005, 03:45 PM
Cody, check their site for pics. The entire side of the head is supposed to be machined flat. It is a casting flaw in the head, and it is rather obvious. If it was supposed to be like that, ther would be obvious definition to that as well. The customer service issue is crap though. The fact that they aren't gonna back their product for a flaw that even they know about is bs to me.
Steve Chryssos
06-22-2005, 04:23 PM
The heads should be fine. It is virtually impossible to manufacture a perfect sand casting. And it is even more difficult to manufacture a water jacketed sand casting. So what the tech is saying is that if he sent out 10 pairs of heads there would be casting blemishes in different places on all 20 castings. Back when I worked at World Products, we explored investment casting technology as an alternative to sand casting--but concluded that no one would pay for the premium.
Could this particular type of blemish be avoided? Yes, just remove some material from the tooling, which in turn adds material to the casting, which in turn, could be machined flat. That is what the tech was referring to when he stated fix the problem. He means they will modify the tooling.
So here's what you should do:
First and most importantly, check the rest of the casting for core shift. Al the bolt holes and other machined surfaces should sit roughly in the middle of their cast bosses. Study them all. You will see trends--everything off to the right by .005" to 010". Also check the ports to make sure that they have not broken through to water jackets. (Not likely) If the core alignment is off a touch--no big deal. But if the casting is suffering from severe core shift, return the heads--that blemish may be inconsequential.
So the heads are more than likely acceptible as sand castings go. But if the cosmetic blemish bothers you, I recommend that you have the heads' exterior surfaces polished. I'm sure if you look close enough you'll find lots of blemishes. A huge machine squirts and squeezes out another casting every 10 seconds. Unfortunately, that's how it goes with sand castings. It's kind of a moving target. And Brodix heads can be just as bad. The Big Three, Dart and World use more advanced tooling, so they can be better. But still, there's no such thing as a perfect sand casting.
jonny51
06-22-2005, 04:47 PM
Thanks Steve,I am not asking for perfection and your right there are blemishes everywhere.They really don't bother me just that big ass one right on front of the head.It also doesn't give AFR the right to be rude about it.I am done and moving on ,the customer service or lack there of is what gets me.
Neil B
06-22-2005, 05:03 PM
I had a similar issue with heads from another company. These were supposed to be top-shelf 100% CNC'd heads (which they are), however, I felt that my heads had casting porosity and coolant hole alignment issues. The company told me to 'get over it' and that heads from other companies were no better. The heads flow a ton and I will use them for my project, however, the heads did not meet my expectations from a quality standpoint. I believe there are customers out there willing to pay for quality, but it seems that very few cylinder head makers understand this.
I don't know every single small block AFR head i have seen looks like *****. The casting looks super porous and ugly. You should see my friends 195's that he got before they started stamping the AFR on the front of the head, and every single small block head i have seen at shows looks awfull too. On the other hand my BBC AFR 305's look like a work of art, the casting is beautiful. I have actually dealt with Jason and i thought he was pretty helpfull. I think you should call back and in a nice manner explain everything. I can understand why they brushed you off, i don't think they get many calls about the way the front of the head looks, if you want looks, like steve said get them fully polished. The heads are all about performance, they have been putting ugly small block heads out for awhile, i have also seen older dartpro1 heads look ugly also. Can someone post a picture of a SBC AFR head that looks good? I don't 100% doubt they are out there, i would just like a good reference. Ask for Tony Mamo when you call, he is a desinger there, he might treat you a little better, just keep a level head, and try to have them be on yourside, don't give them a chance to be defensive, i have found this to help, even when it is the last thing i wanted to do!!
rocketman
06-22-2005, 09:18 PM
i have used a lot of afr lt-1 heads that looked simialer to that you can take a dremel and clean them up its not to hard.
CAMAROBOY69
06-23-2005, 03:33 AM
I am sorry to hear about the AFR experience and actually a little disappointed. You paid big money and then address your disappointment only to have AFR customer service rude to you. :throw: I would be frustrated too. Mabey try a different customer service agent? There is always someone willing to help you out in almost any company.
I guess if all else fails get a dremel and some fine sand grit to polish it smooth. After that hit it with some mothers and it will at least look shiny. Better to have a shiny inperfection than a dull one. Like everyone always sais "If you cant hide it, flaunt it" :headbang:
Rick Dorion
06-23-2005, 04:03 AM
I like Steve Rupp's idea of putting a dress-up plate over it. My ProToplines were crap. I sent the first set back and got a much better set. They (mfr) were very agreeable.
I don't subscribe to the 'they're all that way' story and you should accept it. The AFR customer service was poor. I'd call again and go up the chain to at least have a civil conversation.
SHANE 73Z
06-23-2005, 05:16 AM
There have also been several members over at NastyZ28.com that have had this same experience with AFR. IIRC AFR offered to remove more material from the ends of the castings (if the heads were sent in), but I doubt you want to do that considering the backlog they are currently running.
I know that AFR is a reputable company but to hear that they will not reinvest our hard earned dollars is disappointing. Rumor has it on the 2nd Gen board that 2 of their 3 CNC machines (for SBC heads) are currently inoperable leading to the current long production times.
Shane
camcojb
06-23-2005, 07:18 AM
they look fine to me.
I don't know every single small block AFR head i have seen looks like *****. The casting looks super porous and ugly.
Which is it? They are ugly and I wouldn't be happy with them either. If the face was covered it's not an issue, but usually one side shows. Every other head manufacturer has figured out how to get the casting right so when the face is machined you don't have the deep section that's not being hit by the mill. Polishing won't help as there's a hole there and it'll show. If the machining is correct then any further machining will likely cause pulley alignment issues or shimming to compensate (he said it's pretty deep).
If these were cheap heads at a super low price you could almost see it, but they're on the high end for a small block 23 degree head. And like Jonny said, it's all about the attitude of AFR that makes it even worse.
Jody
Kenova
06-23-2005, 07:40 AM
........... It is virtually impossible to manufacture a perfect sand casting................
I was under the impression that AFR uses a semi-permanent moulding process. The outside surfaces are moulded by a permanent, steal mould. If that is the case, then it's just a matter of cleaning or repairing the damn mould.
With the flow properties of their heads and the premium they charge, I can't understand why they have such a backlog. Maybe it's time they hired a (new) business manager and start investing in more tooling. With the demand for this company's product, it should be growing in leaps and bounds.
Ken
what i meant by the fact they look fine is that they all look like that, please show me an example of a AFR SBC head that doesn't look like that. Anyway, this argument is so silly, they are a set of heads!! and your power sttering pump and alternator cover up the head anyway! if he wanted show quality heads he should have them polished, i have to agree with the guy at AFR, do you want power or looks? There is always going to be at least one idiot at every company, try calling back
camcojb
06-23-2005, 01:10 PM
Never mind. I couldn't find a pic on their site that looked like Jonny's head. I wouldn't put a pic of that up there either if I was them. Looks like crap. I know it doesn't affect performance, but there's no excuse for it being that way, especially as proud as they are of their heads judging by their price. The other head manufacturers seem to be able to not have this issue.
Jody
gEtyOpAPiOn
06-24-2005, 12:45 AM
well if you paid with a credit card just call the bank for a refund...done!! they have great customer service...you will get your money back in 24hrs no questions asked :evil:
Steve Chryssos
06-24-2005, 06:01 AM
Never mind. I couldn't find a pic on their site that looked like Jonny's head. I wouldn't put a pic of that up there either if I was them. Looks like crap. I know it doesn't affect performance, but there's no excuse for it being that way, especially as proud as they are of their heads judging by their price. The other head manufacturers seem to be able to not have this issue.
Jody
You mean like this? We all know what happens to pix on websites and ads and in Playboy. If enough people complain, they will spend the money to clean up their tooling. But it will take a lot of complaining since tooling mods are big $$$. They usually go in and make a bunch of changes to justify the expense. Maybe the LS1 heads are better since that is their newest part.
JMarsa
06-24-2005, 11:24 AM
From LS1tech, seems nice and knowledgable. Has a great combo in his car as well.
Tony Mamo @ AFR see his member info here:
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/member.php?u=19308
--JMarsa
WELTERRACER
06-25-2005, 12:48 PM
once the whole engine is together you wont see the marks unless you hold a magnifiying glass to the engine..
Save your anger for something else... Like the war in iraq
Just be happy you have some of the hightest flowing heads on the market..
jonny51
06-25-2005, 05:19 PM
once the whole engine is together you wont see the marks unless you hold a magnifiying glass to the engine..
Save your anger for something else... Like the war in iraq
Just be happy you have some of the hightest flowing heads on the market..
NO.
Jim Nilsen
06-25-2005, 11:44 PM
To repair the mold to make this problem go away is a matter of removeing material out of the mold which is a lot cheaper to do than having to make a part smaller. Unless they aren't able to remove material because of strength problems I don't understand why they don't suck it up and solve the problem while they can still save a little face before it really gets out of hand. Before they know it they will have more time and money spent making excuses than it will cost to fix the problem.
Noone will get happier just because customer service can talk you into accepting something like that!
If I was stuck with them I would stick them on a mill and make it look as crisp as a double hump factory head and then send them a pic and ask them why they just don't fixture up one of those cnc mills to do the job until they get off there complacent asses and do something about it.
Maybe sending them a mirror and telling them to repeat their excuses to it will help them see the problem a little easier.
Jim Nilsen
dgumoe
06-26-2005, 07:13 AM
dude, you should have said when he told you there was nothing he could do was "good, then get me your supervisor" it amazing how fast smart asses get things done when they know a supervisor is about to get wind of their inferior service and pisspoor attitude. those heads re phenomenal but if youre that concerned about looks then you really need to rattle some cages. im sorry guys but for the money spent on heads from afr they should install themselves. so personally i think he's got a legitamate gripe on both accounts, the look of the head and the pisspoor customer service
just to bring this post back up, i ran across this picture on the chevelle boards that shows that his heads did look a little miffed, but that they werent' that far off
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://imageshack.us)
but i guess when your building show-touring every little thing counts, its in the details. My BBC did look a lot nicer than any of the small block heads, I talked to Tony, which is a SUPER nice guy, you really should of gotten ahold of him, and they are supposedly re doing the entire line of sbc heads with new castings and port design, so they will be improved
gchandler
08-16-2005, 01:45 PM
I am embarassed by this thread.
In all my dealings with AFR have been very well taken care of and their products have always been top shelf.
A cylinder head is a functional part of the engine, not a dress up piece. For my money make a better head, don't waste time smoothing down the front face, those that want a smooth head can go get an edelbrock and give up some power.
In fact I have some edelbrock small block heads that are quite smooth on the front face, would you like to trade?
I think he already sold them for $1300 so he could get some smoother heads, i just dug it up to post a pic of what they usually look like
BRIAN
08-16-2005, 03:17 PM
You are 100% right they should have handled situation differently if that is the way it went down. I would think he was explaining that these are engine parts and they are cast, so there are going to be cosmetic issues. I guess if they had to swap out every set it would be too time consuming. Maybe they have been doing this and your call just put it over the edge.
I would have to say that you are never going to get the answer you want as this is a engine part. I know you paid big bucks and want a clean appearance. I guess be a little understanding on both ends would settle the issue. When they get calls like that they are just reacting as if you are not into the performance aspect and building some show piece which is not what they are about.
get youself a belt sander with some 180 and simply brush the front of the heads. Heck I would tke their name off and be done with it.
I love the way everybody can't understand why you are picky about the look when there are 100's of threads on here about guys paying $4k for rims and such.....Oh yeah, it is all about the performance.
camcojb
08-18-2005, 03:28 PM
I am embarassed by this thread.
In all my dealings with AFR have been very well taken care of and their products have always been top shelf.
A cylinder head is a functional part of the engine, not a dress up piece. For my money make a better head, don't waste time smoothing down the front face, those that want a smooth head can go get an edelbrock and give up some power.
In fact I have some edelbrock small block heads that are quite smooth on the front face, would you like to trade?
I disagree. How they work is the most important thing, but there's no excuse for their heads to look like that. Everyone else seems to get theirs correct. It's not like the heads were cheap, plus on his engine the front of the heads are fully exposed. Looks like crap and he has the right to expect more from AFR. They don't exactly give them away you know.
Jody
Matt@RFR
08-18-2005, 03:38 PM
I couldn't agree more with Jody. Attention to detail like Jonny is displaying is how world class cars are built. I would've done the exact same thing, and I'm a 'form follows function' kinda guy.
With the quality of castings being poured today, and CNC machines that are repeatable to within .0005" easily, there's absolutely no reason for a head to look like that. Is it bad? No. Does it wreck the performance of the head? Absolutely not. However, to get it right would've taken about 30 seconds worth of forethought on AFR's part when they first designed the head.
The head has to go in a mill anyway, so why not spend the extra $0.005 in material and build the area up so that the entire surface can be cleaned up.
BTW whoever owns the motor in the picture sure is going to have fun trying to get all that sticky stuff from that duct tape off!
Lowend
08-18-2005, 05:20 PM
I can tell you guys, as a former AFR Master Distributor I have probably sold 25 sets of their heads... and that is how they look. Nothing out of the ordinary in that pic.
I had a set professionally polished and they came out absolutely beautiful.
I wouldn't attempt the chargeback thing on the credit card. Since the heads are not defective and your card was not stolen, you would probably end up having to pay anyways AND could be charged with fraud
jonny51
08-18-2005, 06:18 PM
Im right here Yody.I posted the thread in the first place because I was disapointed with the customer service.The way the heads look are what got it started but the service was crap to say the least.Not to many people now exactly what is going on with my cars but just so you know it will be driven.I only live 30mins mins from you so maybe you will see me pass you bye smooth heads and all.
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