Anyone read Johnny hunkins "bangin gears" in this months Pop hot Rod?

[yody]

Just got my latest popular hot rodding, and read johnnys editorial. Wow! pretty ruthless but couldn't be more true. He really hit the nail on the head. I would consider myself somewhere in the realm of right inbetween teh 2 extremes he talks about. But moving more towards "wannabe racer" I would like to get some "for fun" track time. Can't wait to get my car done. Wonder who the 2 "bumpsteer" guys were at the Sema dinner he was talking about???? common we know you're here!

[LowBuckX]

I took no offence to it. Ive already come to the realization that I will not be able to build a real g-machine/Pro-touring car as per the recent shift in the way it is defined. I fall into the streetfighter catagory more so than PTouring or G-machine.

But i wouldnt be shocked if some people felt a sting to thier pride by that column.

[TitoJones]

I know them both personally. They aren't 'wannabe' by any stretch of the imagination.
Tyler

[DarkBuddha]

I read his stuff and started to get a little offended, but then I realized that I don't go to the track BECAUSE MY !@$#@#$#@@#$@ CAR ISNT' DONE YET. Even then, I'm not sure I'll go that often since track days are expensive (for a doctoral student), but I might go cone killing occassionally. And test&tune days at the local strip are at bad times for me. Heck, I work 6.5 days a week as it is.

But the real reason I probably won't go to the track that often is that I built my car to live one place really... on the street. Simple. Once I realized he wasn't talking about me (i.e. a guy who actually drives his car on the street), then it didn't bother me so much.

But as I write this I realize something... him ragging on the "show" guys and calling 'em posuers because they don't take their cars to the track regularly would be like me ragging on track guys for not taking their cars out on the street on a regular basis. Heck, the label says pro-TOURING!!! If you ain't driving it on the street, taking it on roadtrips, taking it to the movies, or to work, or out to cruise nights, or (and I didn't say I'm endorsing this) mid-night warehouse road "competitive tuning sessions", then where's the TOURING part, right?

ehhh... blah, blah, blah... right? :rolleyes5

[Steve1968LS2]

I haven't read it... ;)

By definition I am a poser since I haven't been to the track in over a year.. then again I haven't had a car..

How about Pro-Parker for the cars that like to sit and look pretty? Lets face it, we all have different goals in mind for our cars and the important thing is to build them to make ourselves happy and not to fit into some kind of mold that someone else has set.

Well, I have to go polish something.. see ya ;)

[David Sloan]

I read it an took no offence to his comments. I have not been on a track to race in quite some time now! Other than to drag race something. LOL!
Dont get me wrong, drag racing is fun but does not compair to hitting a corner with another car beside you or just in front of you as you set him up to pass. Now thats the shiiiit to me!
Fun factor way up there!!!

[DLinson]

I know that I definitely won't live up to the title. After spending 7 to 8 years working on my car creating a one of a kind piece, I don't want some wannabe overcook a corner and take out all that hard work. I have a friend here at work that took his new Vette to track day held by the local Porsche club. A guy looped it in front of him. He knew this inexperienced kid was behind him in a BMW so he moved over before hitting the brakes. As he hit the brakes the BMW went right past him barely missing him and the spun car. He even admited to my friend that it was a goo thing that he moved over because he would have plowed into him. There were several accidents that day. I'm not going to run the risk of someone collecting me with their mistakes. I'm not saying that I'm a good driver because I haven't raced anything competitively. I only autocrossed and we only used the local track once for an indurance autocross. I'm also not willing to write off my large investment if it gets totalled. The insurance company certainly won't pay for a car wrecked at a track day.

I enjoyed building the car and hope to build more. I would like to build a low buck race car for that track events but as was mentioned before track events are limited and driving time on the track is less and I can drive the Nova on the steet anytime I want (when it's done). Maybe I call my Nova a Muscle Rod? A muscle car with the street rod flare? Nah, I'll just stick with 1962 Nova.

I have thick skin so if you don't agree with me, I can take it. I'll try to keep an open mind about everone's car and how they wish to enjoy them.

Later,
Dennis

[Charley Lillard]

Don't shy away from a track even because of the experience your buddy had. There are many events for beginners that do not allow passing in the turns and only on certain safe straights. The good organizers know you don't want your car trashed by a idiot and have track workers stationed around . If somebody is doing stupid stuff they get them off the track. Nobody wants their pride and joy screwed up. You can do fun track events without wheel to wheel racing. Nothing better than the feel of your car gripping the road better in a turn as the tires heat up and you figure out that is why.

[yody]

i didn't take any offense, i thought it was quite funny, Btw Tito i didn't call those 2 guys wannabe.

[6'9"Witha69]

Go ahead. Call me a poser! My car doesn't go to the track (occasionally Irwindale's 1/8 mile) but I have run down real posers in Porsches on Angeles crest. Hell, I've even done it in my Silverado! It is not the car that makes the poser, but the poser behind the wheel. I read articles like that and consider it entertainment.

[Steve1968LS2]

Go ahead. Call me a poser! My car doesn't go to the track (occasionally Irwindale's 1/8 mile) but I have run down real posers in Porsches on Angeles crest. Hell, I've even done it in my Silverado! It is not the car that makes the poser, but the poser behind the wheel. I read articles like that and consider it entertainment.

Poser = a trailer queen that looks bad ass sitting at a car show but is rarely if EVER driven on the street OR the track.. or anywhere for that matter for fear of a rock chip or dirt.

Very few posers on this site.. heck, I can't think of any.

[Steve1968LS2]

Don't shy away from a track even because of the experience your buddy had. There are many events for beginners that do not allow passing in the turns and only on certain safe straights. The good organizers know you don't want your car trashed by a idiot and have track workers stationed around . If somebody is doing stupid stuff they get them off the track. Nobody wants their pride and joy screwed up. You can do fun track events without wheel to wheel racing. Nothing better than the feel of your car gripping the road better in a turn as the tires heat up and you figure out that is why.

That is why I like Buttonwillow open track days.. lots of safety and almost nothing to hit if you do make a mistake.

[6'9"Witha69]

Poser = a trailer queen that looks bad ass sitting at a car show but is rarely if EVER driven on the street OR the track.. or anywhere for that matter for fear of a rock chip or dirt.

Very few posers on this site.. heck, I can't think of any.
I just hate people trying to categorize other hot rodders into little groups in order to put them down.

Sorry for the rant. :drive:

[Nine Ball]

I haven't read it yet, but if Johnny is griping about the "slow-touring" car show only cars out there, then I agree with him :D

Yes, I have seen pro-touring cars with chrome plated disks on their brakes and no engine fluids in their engines. POSER.

[Neil B]

That is why I like Buttonwillow open track days.. lots of safety and almost nothing to hit if you do make a mistake.

I agree, Buttonwillow is a great track, however, you would be amazed at the number of cars that hit the pit wall coming onto the front straight in the CCW direction. It's easy to put 4 wheels off at the corner exit if you overcook the entry and drivers will try to 'save it' and loop right into the wall.

IMO, the key to a successful track event is not overdriving your ability and sensing when other drivers are seeing the 'red mist' (and staying out of their way).

[trapin]

I read his article just a few minutes ago and I think the guy hit the nail right on the head. A great write up. I didn't take offense to it. The main reason I don't have huge brakes, a roll cage, or racing seats is precisely why I'm not going to race it. If I were....I would have those things. As far as posers go...I don't think he was speaking to me. I have my car built specifically for what it's going to be used for....the street. I thought he made some great points. I thought his insight on turbo chargers and cars over 700 horsepower was quite intriguing. If not correct. I'm sure it'll get a few people in this community huffing and puffing. :smoke:

Great article, Johnny! :cheers:

[yody]

agreed!!

[Steve1968LS2]

I just hate people trying to categorize other hot rodders into little groups in order to put them down.

Sorry for the rant. :drive:

I don't think its a put down.. i think it is an observation. IF someone built an all out PT car with all the tech, huge brakes, custom suspension, big motor and didn't drive it then what would it be but a "poser"?? Its an art object.. even a work of art but is is only posing as a pt car much like some pro-street cars are posers since they have never seen a track or even red-line on the tach :)

It seems like these days more and more nice cars are being driven and that to me is a GOOD thing!

[Steve1968LS2]

I agree, Buttonwillow is a great track, however, you would be amazed at the number of cars that hit the pit wall coming onto the front straight in the CCW direction. It's easy to put 4 wheels off at the corner exit if you overcook the entry and drivers will try to 'save it' and loop right into the wall.

IMO, the key to a successful track event is not overdriving your ability and sensing when other drivers are seeing the 'red mist' (and staying out of their way).

Ive always ran the course clockwise.. I can see where CCW would be an issue..

And yes.. if people try hard enough they can crash anywhere.. my point was the compared to other tracks buttonwillow is pretty fender friendly :)

[Neil B]

Ive always ran the course clockwise.. I can see where CCW would be an issue..

And yes.. if people try hard enough they can crash anywhere.. my point was the compared to other tracks buttonwillow is pretty fender friendly :)

I've never run it clockwise. What orgs run it that way? If you ever get the chance, it's a hoot running CCW. The 'Talladega' corner is a blast CCW (it's flat out all the way from Magic Mountain in most cars) and you carry a ton of speed through the esses. I agree Buttonwillow is very forgiving (unlike Sears Point).

P.S. Bad Penny is one awesome car. Congrats.

[Q ship]

Speedventures has run CW. (https://www.speedventures.net/2005_Schedule.asp)

[indyjps]

one thing i found interesting was when the magazines started picking up on pro-touring and labeling it as such they promoted people actually driving their cars. anyone remember that. they promoted cars that were able to handle brake, go fast, and be driven (power tour, street car eliminator), track time specifically was not mentioned. pro-touring is and was about having a functional car not a barely streetable drag car which @ the time was what most vehicle builds consisted of.
i think alot of the readers on the board agree some of it has gotten out of hand with some of the builds, but these are show cars that can perform if set up correctly. most show cars are not flogged on the track and the whole idea of a show car is to have something that takes an idea to the extreme, they arent really meant to be driven on a daily basis they are for show.
my own build probably wont spend much time on the track, i am planning a second build that will get beat to death on the track but its far far down the road. a race car to me is something you dont mind killing, thats why when i drag raced my 69 camaro never made it out of the 12's, i didnt want to cage it. the 70 camaro i had was a race car and i treated it like one, beat it to death and it kept coming back for more.
its your car. if you want to build it and never drive it, go ahead. if you want to beat it hard go ahead. just make it what you want.

[Rick Dorion]

Time trials at Lime Rock are a blast. Haven't had my car there yet but have a bit of seat time when I had a 240Z. I read the editorial and felt it was OK. Some mods I do to my car I can appreciate on the street even if overkill. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Lime Rock is CW :)

[Steve1968LS2]

one thing i found interesting was when the magazines started picking up on pro-touring and labeling it as such they promoted people actually driving their cars. anyone remember that. they promoted cars that were able to handle brake, go fast, and be driven (power tour, street car eliminator), track time specifically was not mentioned. pro-touring is and was about having a functional car not a barely streetable drag car which @ the time was what most vehicle builds consisted of.

I would say that a high percentage of our cars are driven. Heck, even that orange Road Runner and black HEMI AAR were just driven long haul on the power tour. I would also say many of our car are track flogged. Examples would be J. Biddles 68 Mustang, Roberts 69 Camaro from the June issue and others. Several of the upcoming cars are also tossed around the track. I would say Johnny gets much more excited when we find a less than perfect driven car over a perfect high dollar "show car".. both are important to the hobby but the driven car is more exciting to write (and read) about. It is good to have a mix. After all, we would look foolish if we talked up "driven cars" and then only featured "show cars"..

[Hartz]

one thing i found interesting was when the magazines started picking up on pro-touring and labeling it as such they promoted people actually driving their cars. anyone remember that. they promoted cars that were able to handle brake, go fast, and be driven (power tour, street car eliminator), track time specifically was not mentioned. pro-touring is and was about having a functional car not a barely streetable drag car which @ the time was what most vehicle builds consisted of.


EXACTLY! What's the difference between a barely streetable drag car (Pro Street) and a barely streetable road race car? Neither one is much fun to drive to work or go for a ride with the better-half. I turned to Pro Touring because I was tired of seeing things like Dobberton's J2000 (no offense, it's an interesting piece of work, just not my style) in magazines. Not only couldn't the average guy afford a car like that, he couldn't drive it if he COULD afford it. I fear for the day when Pro Touring reaches that point.

Give me an old muscle car, some fuel injection, an overdrive trans, disc brakes, and some creature comforts, and I'm a happy camper. Call it what you will. Maybe we need a Pro-Middle-Age-Guy-Getting-Too-Old-for-Hardcore-Race-Type-Stuff classification? :lmao:

[Steve1968LS2]

EXACTLY! What's the difference between a barely streetable drag car (Pro Street) and a barely streetable road race car? Neither one is much fun to drive to work or go for a ride with the better-half. I turned to Pro Touring because I was tired of seeing things like Dobberton's J2000 (no offense, it's an interesting piece of work, just not my style) in magazines. Not only couldn't the average guy afford a car like that, he couldn't drive it if he COULD afford it. I fear for the day when Pro Touring reaches that point.

Give me an old muscle car, some fuel injection, an overdrive trans, disc brakes, and some creature comforts, and I'm a happy camper. Call it what you will. Maybe we need a Pro-Middle-Age-Guy-Getting-Too-Old-for-Hardcore-Race-Type-Stuff classification? :lmao:

Pro-Cruiser?? :)

I think magazines need to cover a wide spectrum of cars.. from stuff like The Hammer to cars like Derrick Yee's Maveric and Michael Coopers Nova.. If we all drove the same type of cars it would get boring pretty damn fast..

[Salt Racer]

Finally had a chance to read. Interesting indeed. As someone who knows how much fun it is to drive on tracks, I tend to agree with Johnny and I'd rather not to see any show car in PHR (isn't that what street rod magazines are for?) But sounds like that's not gonna happen despite Johnny's enthusiasm.

I have one favor to ask you magazine editors. When you publish performance numbers, please only publish the numbers with proof and cut BS crap claimed numbers out of your magazine.

A couple of issues back, there was this manufacturer or some car owner that made some outrageous claims like 1G on skidpad and less than 100-foot 60-0 stopping distance. Just by looking at pics, it was obvious the car wasn't up to the tasks, complete with narrow street tires. Constant, steady deceleration 60-0 in 96 feet equals 1.25G. Spike in G will be even higher during real-life, non-constant braking. Better have wide slicks. You can't cheat physics.

Stuff like this is not only misleading to those who have no perception of how hard it is to make a 3000+ lb muscle car (ie, narrow track, high CG) pull 1.0G on moderately sized street tires, but also insulting to those manufacturers and car owners who have balls to have their products and/or cars tested by a third-party media. Their reputation/ego are at stake if the car/product don't perform as well as intended.

IIRC, that car was located in Southwest, very close to you guys. You should have dragged them and the car over to Fontana for some testing when they made that claim.

That's all.

Signed,
A guy who can execute heel & toe and knows why it's important (currently practicing clutch-less heel & toe in my daily driver - the less you move, the faster car goes).

[Jim Nilsen]

After reading the article I felt like I can live with trying to have a great looking car that from 20 feet is a show car but up close has those pesky everyday flaws that seperate the driven hard from the polished to death and never driven. I still really like polished though, since I know that polishing some parts will add strength and durability not just a show look for show cars.

I still feel that it depends on what you are trying to show people as to what a show car is. If you are showing someone how well it goes it is really a show car just not in the same everyday sense of the way we have been looking at it for years and I commend him for seeing it both ways.

Frieburger started the trend with Car Craft 5yrs ago with Cheap Street and I really liked the Idea then and it lives close to my goals still today!


Jim Nilsen

[dgumoe]

here's my take on it all. stop reading magazines, stop paying attention to what all these a**holes with bottomless bank accounts build for even bigger a**holes with even bigger bank accounts and build what YOU want. screw keeping up with the jones' build the damn thing the way YOU see fit. if it fits some magazine editors description of a so-called genre then fine, but if it doesnt screw it. you know what genre my car falls into? its a damn car. it goes forward backward and turns and stops when i tell it to. and before anyone jumps on me about slamming magazine editors, i only read PHR and i think Johnny is one of the best editors out there and he should be commended for what he's done to the magazine. but truth be told, my car is probably going to keep its 15" cragar superlite wheels, you know why? cause i like em. it will have more supportive seats in it, but they wont be corbeau or sparco or any other high priced LOW end seat. theyre gonna be recovered stock seats out of a friggin mazda mx6. my point is, stop taking offense to what other people say, build what you want, how you want, and within your financial means, and you will be happy. besides it makes for a more interesting cruise nite when everyone is driving something DIFFERENT.

[Charley Lillard]

LOL...you don't sound happy.

[dgumoe]

nah im perfectly happy, just tired of people being bottlenecked into thinking they have to have a car that fits a certain genre that's determined by a corporate nitwit behind a desk that drives a honda hybrid to work.

[Steve1968LS2]

Personally I like variety.. I want to drool over The Mule then go look at so dinged up track car.. to me it is all good. How boring would it be if we all drove the same damn thing?

Wait till you see the car on the August cover.. a real driver :)

[Mean 69]

Well, now, I probably would have passed right over the article due to being quite busy these days, but saw this post and read it. Oh, just how funny and misled people can get.

The guy with the napkin drawings was me. The guy I was explaining to was Shane (wickedmotorhead). Now, I take offense at being called a poser, but I'll give Johnny a bit of a break because it was loud, and he clearly didn't have a clue what we were talking about.

It wasn't bump steer, that's on the FRONT of the car, it was ROLL steer, and that is something that happens on the BACK of a car. We were discussing the technical, engineering issues with DESIGNING a road course worthy suspension system, and I was sharing with Shane what I had done to mitigate roll-oversteer on the three link design that I (I as in me, not some dude that I had build stuff for me, nor a catalog purchased item, engineered/designed, fabricated completely by myself including all but one control arm mounting bracket, cutting, grinding, welding, measuring, all of that good stuff that most people pay others to do) implemented onto my own car. I have built virtually everything else on the car myself too, short of machine work on the engine.

I can tell you further, my car is a good looking ten-footer, but it isn't going to make a magazine (well, let's reflect on that a bit, I did see a car at the local cruise night in Escondido that had been featured in a magazine, can't recall which one, and in the magazine it looked pretty darned nice. In person, in show car terms, it was a piece of crap with the wavy-est body I could imagine. And you know what, I loved the car just the same, because the dude dug it and drove it out for other people to enjoy as well as himself).

The road course statement? No, the CAR has not been on a road course, becasue at that time, I hadn't even finished building it yet. Me, not the same answer, although I further don't classify myself as being a hot shoe hired driver for the Rolex sports car series either. When will itbe on the course? July, for Vince' bachelor party, for its long overdue maiden voyage. Come and join the fun, by the way. Am I boasting about how well it is going to do, and throwing out useless performance numbers that pump up the car's ego? Um, no. I am realistic, and completely understand that you need to crawl before you can run (though, I am more interested in the "running" than I am the crawling).

Further, the comment about the internet is two-pronged as well. No question an individual can go in there, learn some cool phrases, go around throwing them about as if he/she knows what they are doing, and sadly, pointing others that don't know what to do in the wrong direction. It happens, and it is probably more influential than the "good" side of information exchange found on the web. I can tell you without question there is so much good, outstanding information if you know how to sift through the noise, it is, frankly, amazing.

Now I realize that everyone has a different approach to building their car(s), and that the term poser is a subjective one, but I dare compare my project to G28. I love the approach, it is a cool recipe that can give folks something realistic to use as a blueprint for their own project. However, where's the innovation? The parts chosen are all of the same stuff that people have been "bolting on" to their cars for years! All the usual suspects are in there, Baer, GW, PST, etc, and they all make decent stuff. But it is basically the same as everyone else's "stuff" that you can buy out of a catalog (for contact information, just reference the numerous ads in the back of any of the magazines). You speak of good seating, important for lateral holding? What about safety? I can tell you that in the very possible event that you hit something un-intended at a high speed road course that the seats you selected wil disintegrate. Why do you think the $700 per side Cobra Suzuka racing seats in my car are made out of kevlar and can handle tens of g's of impact force? Becasue they have the cute holes in the top for the shoulder harnesses to go through? I looked at the pictures of the guy installing the engine, and the one on the banging gears page, and they aren't the same guy? You know, my opinion is that people need to be just as cautious in what they read in the magazines as the stuff they read on the internet.

When we talked briefly at the dinner, and further when you were looking to fill the writer's position with all of the posts on this site, you made it clear that you weren't a die-hard professional car guy when you came to PHR. And you know what, no sweat, at all, because it is a great sport, and you can learn tons while having a great time at it. But just because my shirt didn't have a "Hotchkis" or other suitable logo on it, well, don't disregard me (or others like me) as being a poser. I can assure you, I really DO know what I am talking about, and when I don't, I ask questions. Would you quit your profession, risk all of the assets that you have worked so hard for over twenty years, to start your own business to develop innovative ideas for this hobby that no one else is doing, competing against large, powerful incumbents? Hmm?

I guess we'll all know by the end of this year if these comments were enough to exclude me from the PHR club. I certainly hope not, I still think it is the best magazine to cover the segment of the overall car hobby that I love.

Kind regards,
Mark

[Bill Howell]

It is funny how often this same train of thought was discussed at the event this weekend. I hate to think that this nitch in the hobby has the chance of being narrowed to one or two people's opinion of what we are. My take is a car is to be driven, a protouring car above all else should be actually driven on the street. If racing is your bag, by all means build your ride with that in mind. If a showcar is for you, spend the budget on the paint job. Dragracing turn your head? Tilt your car in that direction.
BUT, don't knock the next guy if his car is not a cookie cut replica of your car. If roadracing is all you want to do and you tow your car to the track because it is too this or that for the street, then I am sorry by that to me is not a "touring" car. Same if you are scared your paint job will get a rock ding. Cars are to be driven and trailers are for boats.
No two people here have the same taste or budget, but if we ever expect to get respect, we have to allow a diverse interpretation of who we are.
To me, the closest to my description at least, of a Protouring car belonged to Phillip ( I will let him identify himself if he wants). He drove the car, raced the car, enjoyed the car and had his family in the car yesterday. The car went around the mountians like it was on a rail and did great at the track too. It is a well executed ride that most anyone here could build and guess what, he enjoyed the car yesterday rather than look at it in his garage waiting until he could afford the next bigger and better,lastest, greatest, must have part.
Guys, the main focus on our sport is enjoying driving the cars, not having a never ending project. I truely believe some here will never finish their car because for one reason or another think it will not be up to someone else's standards. Forget what someone else wants your car to be, finish it, drive it and enjoy it. For anyone who has ever went to one of the Power Tour stops and checked out the cars, you know that while "celebrated cars" such as Charley's mule and others, most of the participates are regular guys with cars that are not perfect.(BTW, anyone who meets him knows Charley is a regular guy too, just happens to own the holy graille of protouring.) Magazine coverage is just icing on the cake!
To wrap up this way too long already post, I just want to say no one should be or should feel they are intimidated about their car because it is not the mule. I hope we never get to the point that people interested in joining our obsession decide protouring is unobtainable or we unapproachable. If it does, protouring will be just another miserable group of "look at me"s, that I for one will not want to be part of.

My $0.02
Sorry so long

[USAZR1]

Well said,Mark & Bill. My car would be much nicer,faster,quicker,etc if I wanted to tear it down to the bare frame and start building from there.
But damn,I'm living on borrowed time as it is and all I want to do is enjoy my ride as long as I can.

My car is a protourer,not proracer. That means it must perform and be comfortable in real-world situations. Let's be careful we don't lose sight of what's important here.

[DarkBuddha]

Viva la street! :headbang:

[DarkBuddha]

:idea: Maybe we just need more labels... you can never have enough labels to shove people into. :candle: Maybe something like race-touring, street-touring, poser-touring, garage-art-touring, project-touring. :rolleyes5

[Q ship]

I haven't seen the article, but I've met Shane and talked a lot to Mark-let's just say when I start to really dig into alternative suspension geometries, I won't be calling Johnny Hunkins. Hell, I can bolt parts on!!

Must be nice to have a bully pulpit to preach from.

[Steve1968LS2]

pro-posing? ;)

[Bill Howell]

:idea: Maybe we just need more labels... you can never have enough labels to shove people into. :candle: Maybe something like race-touring, street-touring, poser-touring, garage-art-touring, project-touring. :rolleyes5

LOL, while at lunch, thinking about this thread, I thought of one you forgot DB. Track-touring. My problem with this type is it reminds me of a dog chasing it's tail, kinda sees the same scenery again and again an.....
Nothing wrong with that type car as long is it is used for other things too. Then again, if it is your car and you like it, nothing wrong with it period, just don't knock mine.
The one common thread all my cars MUST have since I am a fatboy and fatboys sweat is A/C. I guess I am A/Ctouring, no Fatboy-touring :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Roadrage David]

Any Fool Who is trying to educate the other Fools who are Fooling around with pro-touring cars , is the biggest Fool himself!!!!!!!!!!

[Salt Racer]

..The guy with the napkin drawings was me...

Judging a book by its cover eh, Johnny? You better be nice to him next time you two come across.

This "poseur" really knows what the hell he's doing. Also rumor is the guy who designed suspension on a certain Chevy that holds Primedia's slalom record will be joining his team soon.

BTW, this engineer dude is also known to do napkin sketches over a pitcher of dark microbrew when he explains engineering theories to his friends. Would you have also called him a poseur if you spotted him doodling on a piece of paper and told you he's never driven on a track?

Those two will have TONS of tips on suspension setups to offer, as well as some killer products.

You, and hot rodders in general, need to realize that there are MANY no-name guys who posess a lot more knowledge/experience than you (or me for that matter) can attain in life time. One thing I really hate about hot rodding community, is freaking everybody or his buddy is goddamn expert and thinks everyone else is just Joe Nobody. I even admit I'm guilty of doing this myself when I'm in bad mood.

Be a humble listener and you'll be that much closer to those true experts.

EDIT With that said, I see where Johnny's comment was coming from. I too would have asked "why?" if real "street only" guys were talking about suspension geometry in depth. Modified stock front and leaf springs are more than adequate for street, as evidenced by Stielow's white Camaro and many successful vintage racecars. Those small details (like good roll steer) won't be of much benefit unless a car is pushed to the limit. Goofing around on street WON'T EVEN COME CLOSE to the true limit.

[jeffandre]

Interesting and entertaining reading, but now I don't know where I land anymore, either garage-art-touring or project-touring for the time being...Of course if I had my own shop then it would be project-touring forever! :doh:

[Steve1968LS2]

Interesting and entertaining reading, but now I don't know where I land anymore, either garage-art-touring or project-touring for the time being...Of course if I had my own shop then it would be project-touring forever! :doh:

How about we all just call ourselves "gearheads" and be done with it??

However, I do think that Johnny's real motive was to get people on the track. And that having "real life" track experience could only help you with the theory part. But that is just what I got from it.

My cars are pro-show-touring-gmachine-street-track cars.. lol.. With that many names my car must be hispanic.. :)

[Salt Racer]

...However, I do think that Johnny's real motive was to get people on the track. And that having "real life" track experience could only help you with the theory part. But that is just what I got from it...

This I agree whole heartedly.

[USAZR1]

You, and hot rodders in general, need to realize that there are MANY no-name guys who possess a lot more knowledge/experience than you (or me for that matter) can attain in a lifetime. One thing I really hate about the hot rodding community, is freaking everybody or his buddy is a goddamn expert and thinks everyone else is just Joe Nobody. I even admit I'm guilty of doing this myself when I'm in bad mood.
Be a humble listener and you'll be that much closer to those true experts.

I can certainly agree with this. It simply amazes me how much knowledge there is on this board. After being a P-T member for a few years,I "thought" I knew a few things. Yeah,right. Heck,there are people on here that have forgotten more than I'll ever know but the best part is they never flaunt it.

[Mean 69]

Any Fool Who is trying to educate the other Fools who are Fooling around with pro-touring cars , is the biggest Fool himself!!!!!!!!!!

I am sure the intent of this statement is clear in your own mind, but for the rest of us, what the he!! are you trying to state? I think I get it, but want to be sure?

M

[zbugger]

Mark, I think I know what he's trying to say, but damn it confused the living **** outta me. I had to read it 15 times to come up with an idea of what he was saying. My head hurts.

[Roger Poirier]

[QUOTE=Bill Howell] My take is a car is to be driven, a protouring car above all else should be actually driven on the street. If racing is your bag, by all means build your ride with that in mind. If a showcar is for you, spend the budget on the paint job. Dragracing turn your head? Tilt your car in that direction. [/QOUTE]

[QUOTE=Bill Howell]To wrap up this way too long already post, I just want to say no one should be or should feel they are intimidated about their car because it is not the mule. I hope we never get to the point that people interested in joining our obsession decide protouring is unobtainable or we unapproachable. If it does, protouring will be just another miserable group of "look at me"s, that I for one will not want to be part of. [/QOUTE]

Amen brother!
R.P.

[Roger Poirier]

All, the hell with him. These writers are a pain in the derriere. To each his own! This ought to piss off all the writers at PHR. Ha-ha

:icon_razz LOL R.P.

[Charley Lillard]

You can say that again........

[camcojb]

I was not offended in any way by Johnny's editorial. Made sense to me. I am a bit horsepower oriented, those who know me can vouch for that. I enjoy making a lot of power and driving it every day without overheating, pump gas (a must!), a/c comfort, etc. EFI makes that possible in my opinion.

I drove my last car every day (when I wasn't upgrading something!), even drove it in the rain a couple times. Everybodys idea of streetable is different. The last car I had was a bit much, but I was trying to prove that big power and drivability could exist together. The new car will make 900-1000 HP and will have traction control of sorts. I plan on hitting the 1/4 mile track right away, and heading to the road course with Charley and other friends as dates open up. It takes a bit more work (and money) to make a real high horse setup work, but it can be done as long as the delivery is smooth enough.

A wise man once told me (Charley Lillard!) that the guy who writes the checks for the car gets to determine whether it's beat on at a track or just cruised around and taken to local shows. It's his money, and if he doesn't want to wring it out at a track I don't think any the lesser of him. It takes all kinds in this hobby, and so far all of you that I've met I consider friends.

Jody

[yody]

Mark, i won't even comment on your post, i think that pretty much wraps up that... but for everyone else, this IS NOT another what is protouring post, Johnny was talking about taking the car to the track. I don't really agree/disagree, but it was an intersting write up and wondered what people thought, please don't start diagnosing what/is/not protoruing, i think we have had enough of those

[Steve1968LS2]

All, the hell with him. These writers are a pain in the derriere. To each his own! This ought to piss off all the writers at PHR. Ha-ha

:icon_razz LOL R.P.

Not really ;)

I have yet to see ANY opinion that everyone shares.. hence the reason it is called an opinion.. :)

Feel the love...

[Conekiller13]

I'm going to put My spin on it. I think part of what Johnny was pointing at was people building the cars to look like a certain thing and not building them to do somthing with them. Take for istantance the Hammer built by Pure Vision. If You took a left hand turn using what that car has going for it You'd end up in the passenger seat. This is form LIMITING function.As far as being scared about damaging Your car at a track day.................what's more likely? Having an incident under controlled circumstances in a relativly safe invironment or having a deer or a car come out in front of you while "racing" a Porsche up Angels Crest highway or some simmilar road? If Your going to build a car to go fast.............take it where You can go fast without putting others and Yourself in danger. Secondly...............why build it if your not going to drive it? :hmm:

[David Pozzi]

Whatever car is built, I hope the owner get's enjoyment from it!

I'm glad there is a wide variety of cars out there, but I DO want to see PHR feature some Muscle cars that RUN on a TRACK from time to time. I'm tired of features of just-built PT cars that have this-or-that subframe or rear suspension and the owner "hasn't had it to the track yet" or is quoted saying "it handles like it's on rails" but when I look at the pics, I see there's no way it's going to handle very well.

I see where Johnny's going with his editorial and hope he will flush out some real runners for feature articles. I think most of the guys he would want to talk to are reading something else like Grassroots Motorsports or Circle Track Magazine.

[vanzuuk1]

Dan , I didnt get what you said about the hammer, did you mean it has crappy seats?
Its one of my favorite cars but I cant remember the seats, I guess it had the stock seats?

[trapin]

I hope we never get to the point that people interested in joining our obsession decide protouring is unobtainable or we unapproachable. If it does, protouring will be just another miserable group of "look at me"s, that I for one will not want to be part of.
Bill....that's been my crusade since day one. A couple years ago I got into an arguement over at Camaros.net when someone suggested that The Mule was the poster child for Pro-Touring. I respectfully disagreed. Not because I have anything against The Mule, on the contrary...that's my favorite car of all-time, I'd give my left nut just to sit in the passanger seat. But I felt apprehensive about labeling it as such for just the reasons that you stated, I didn't want people to think their car HAD to be like that to be considered Pro-Touring. I told the guy that I felt The Mule's best role was as a barometer of the potential of Pro-Touring, and how far you could go if you wanted to. I suggested the better candidate for a 'poster child' would be a car like Jonathon Dukes '68 Camaro. It was the ultimate DIY project that he built on a shoe string budget....and it turned out great. No...it's not a 'Super Car', but the lessons learned from that car plus the motivation inspired by how it was done would be invaluable to pro-touring. How could you not get fired up about the hobby aftering following that cars build story? Sadly, his website is no longer up as he is busy concentrating on his brake company; Touring Classics. Of course it didn't take long for some people there to jump down my throat and accuse me of hating The Mule and hating Mark Stielow. Yeah.....OK :lmao:

But as far as the 'Look At Me's'.....every community is going to have them, you're never going to stop that from happening. But to each his own I always say.

$4000 HRE's, Twin Turbo's, 345's....that's America baby. :usa:

[Bill Howell]

Tony,
I think articles like Johnny wrote wake folks up. The discussion here in this thread have been great and thankfully has not turned sour. The one thing no one has mentioned is that most of us do not have the resources or budget to compete with the mule. Even if we did, I bet no two cars would be alike. Thank God we do not all have the same taste, life would be very boring if we did. Threads like this always help define who and what this nitch is. However, I always try to read them taking into consideration everything is an opinion, not law. In the end, we all build what we can afford with our own taste thrown into the mix. I have always and will continue to be a preponderant of true drivers. As long as you are not scared to drive it to the track, or cruise in or show, I think you fall under the umbrella of Protouring. Will my cars see much track time, probably not. Does that make me a poser, some think so. Do I care? :lmao: Surely you know the answer to this one!

In fact, I have changed my signature to reflect it.LOL

[69rs]

If Bill is "poser", I guess I'm "wannabe"! Or maybe "somedaywillbe". Mine will be P/T one day.....but a very budget minded build. Will it be considered P/T? To me it will. Some strip time, some autocross/track time, but large majority street use. Go, stop and turn good as/better than most new cars and look good doing it. That's what it's about!

I'm also still waiting for the latest PHR to arrive at my local convenience store! :banghead:

[Rick Dorion]

Freiburger does the same thing and I think it stirs the pot and facilitates some thought and discussion. Probably not meant to be taken literally although Johnnie's napkin comment caught me a bit. I've always modified my cars in the suspension, ignition, etc. areas because I like upgrading and working on cars. It's a hike for me to get to any track whether it's a dragstrip or road course but I still dream the dream and enjoy the better (in my mind sometimes!) handling, etc.

[Roger Poirier]

A wise man once told me (Charley Lillard!) that the guy who writes the checks for the car gets to determine whether it's beat on at a track or just cruised around and taken to local shows. It's his money, and if he doesn't want to wring it out at a track I don't think any the lesser of him. It takes all kinds in this hobby, and so far all of you that I've met I consider friends.

Jody

Very well said. R.P.

[chufham]

I don't buy magazines much once or twice a year so I didn't get the phr article I like the term street fighter . when a person lives in a mountainous region like here in NC or other parts of the country you need to have all the handling you can get that's one reason that I like this site theres a good varitey of people here that like's different things in there car but one common demominator everyone has a passion for cars and improving them to where they are better than factory and loads more fun to drive.

IMHO.


CLIFF

[Steve1968LS2]

I know them both personally. They aren't 'wannabe' by any stretch of the imagination.
Tyler

Ya know.. I have been reading and re-reading the editorial and I don't see the term "wannabe" or "poser" in there anyplace...

Am I missing it?

In fact, in the opening paragraph, he states that caturing a car show trophy is "cool".. later he says "will still feature show cars because they are important.."

Anyways, just some last observations to toss in.. Just like how we like to build cars differently there are different ways to take an editorial as well.

:drive:

[TonyHuntimer]

beating a dead horse...

I thought Johnny's column was a great read. I took it as an attempt to get guys to take their cars to the track and have some real fun after spending their dough. Oh! And look at how many people picked up the magazine to do more than look at all the great pictures Johnny takes for us.

My thoughts...race it, drive it, or park it. Make sure you enjoy it!

Tony Huntimer
RaceHome.com

[Stangonline.com]

My car will likely never see the track when its done. For me, I can only afford to do it (build the car) once and I want to be able to enjoy it for a long time. That being the case, the car would get driven to shows and on weekends for a "fun run" and thats about it. I have no intention of turning a work of art (for me) into a daily driver or a road course warrior. It's like everything, to each his own.

Now, if my name was Jay Leno, I would drive them as much as possible.

[Steve1968LS2]

My car will likely never see the track when its done. For me, I can only afford to do it (build the car) once and I want to be able to enjoy it for a long time. That being the case, the car would get driven to shows and on weekends for a "fun run" and thats about it. I have no intention of turning a work of art (for me) into a daily driver or a road course warrior. It's like everything, to each his own.

Now, if my name was Jay Leno, I would drive them as much as possible.

Nothing wrong with that.. but an open track event for even a "show car" is a great experience and most likely more safe than driving on the public roads..

I used to take my 2000 SS there on a regular basis.. then go win car shows the next weekend. I can't tell you how much fun it was to rip it around the the track then pull into the "pits" and pop the hood.. people would be "do actually drive that car??"

Did I beat on it? no.. was it a "track car".. no.. Did I have fun with it.. hell yea!

[Conekiller13]

Dan , I didnt get what you said about the hammer, did you mean it has crappy seats?
Its one of my favorite cars but I cant remember the seats, I guess it had the stock seats?


Yes, the Hammer does have stock type seats................It's the meanest lookin Mopar out there but with stock seats it's useless as a hard driver. Stock seats work in a straight line but not in a corner carver. I think that's one of easiset ways to tell who's in it for real.

[MuscleRodz]

After reading everything here and finally reading the article, I have the same vue I had before. The only thing Jonny has done is put his opinion in PHR for the readers to see. Why? Because he can. His "opinion" is to sh$t or get off the pot. I think he really likes this style of car building and does not want it to head where Pro-Street headed and fade away.

I think he could have done without the napkin comment. It seamed rather narrow minded without further fact finding to put it in the editorial. In the end take it for what it is, his opinion. Enjoy your cars to the best of your abilities and don't let peer pressure (because that is what it is) dictate how you should build or enjoy YOUR car.

Mike

[Blown353]

Yes, the Hammer does have stock type seats................It's the meanest lookin Mopar out there but with stock seats it's useless as a hard driver. Stock seats work in a straight line but not in a corner carver. I think that's one of easiset ways to tell who's in it for real.

Hey, some of us rather enjoy taking hard turns in our stock seats. The real trick is learning how to work all the controls from the passenger seat, which is where I end up after a hard left. :rotfl:

You make a very valid point. I can't corner "to the limit" in my car right now because I can't hold myself in the zero-lateral-support stock buckets! It's amazingly tough to be smooth on the steering, gas, and brakes when 90% of your concentration and physical effort during a turn isn't focused on the turn, but rather holding onto various interior bits to keep yourself in place. Poor seating support, lack of an oil cooler, and a too-low for heel/toe action stock height gas pedal are the only things keeping me from doing an open track day with my car, all of which I plan on rectifying soon. An accusump will probably find its way onto the car as well during the oil cooler plumbing for good measure. I would track the thing now with with the seat and gas pedal issues and still have a good time if it wasn't for my oil temp issues. I can heat things up enough to just about be at the danger level just during backroads antics, which means I would absolutely cook the motor on a roadcourse. Not going to risk that, so track time will wait until I decide on an oil cooler and get one installed.

I would be happy not tracking the car (it gets plenty of backroad abuse), but I would have more fun tracking the thing occasionally. Why? Roadcourses are a BLAST! :lol: I haven't been on one in several years (Sears Point was my last track time) and I really miss it. I haven't driven Buttonwillow or Thunderhill, but I have driven Sears Point and Laguna Seca, and was a passenger for Riverside years ago before it was a housing development (RIP, S-turns.)

Anyone have a copy of the article they can post up for those of us who are magazine-less?

Troy

[vanzuuk1]

Troy I changed my steering wheel for cosmetic reasons and I just installed the summit seats. I put the seats farther towards the rear of the car so I am a little less on top of the wheel, more stretched out.It made a huuuge difference its like driving a different car, between the grippy wheel and better seat/seat position.I know its off topic but it seemed relevant.
Yes I will definately auto cross,enter a drift event and maybe do a track day with my car.The reason i say maybe is because I have to balance out My love of driving on the track against the possibliity of rolling my car over until its unrecognizeable.Anything can happen but I think at a fast track like lime rock or the glen you can destroy your car easier than at an autocross. I see karting as a more reasonable alternative for me,its a very pure racing experience and easier to finance. If I wreck my camaro thats it, there is no money to replace it (or even repair it) so it will not see combat duty in the near future.Anyone who thinks you can go to the track and "take it easy" is being a little optimistic, in my opinion.

[sinned]

Anyone who thinks you can go to the track and "take it easy" is being a little optimistic, in my opinion. Not true. If you go to a beginner HPDE event the rules for the slower classes are very clear. Stuff like no passing and no over-driving the car are strictly enforced. They will make sure you "take it easy".

[69rs]

At the Year One show at Road Atlanta they had track time. There were some fast groups, but there were also slower groups. Who, that would build a car with P/T capabilities wouldn't want to do a few laps for the fun of it? Nevermind, I'm sure there are some! But not many. I'm sure Johnny is pleased with all the buzz. It means people are talking about all this! However, I read the article and I certainly didn't find it offensive. Maybe I missed something? :dunno: I'll read it again. :hmm:

[Piet]

WOW... what a long read. I found it pretty interesting.
Well here is my 2 cents. (Apologies to Joe Canadian... and his 'I am Canadian' beer rant)

Hey, I'm not millionaire, or a race engineer...
I don't live in a Monster Garage, eat at SEMA dinners, or own a 'Mule'...
and I don't know Johnny, Steve or Joe from Primedia well,
although I'm certain they're really really nice.

I have a old American car, not a Lemans Racer...
I speak in Layman's language, not 'Bumpsteer'-speak
I pronounce it 'CAMARO' not 'CAMERO'...

I can proudly say 'My car has not seen the light of day this year'
I believe in eventually driving my car, not complaining about others for driving theirs.
Learning about new stuff, not putting down others ideas.
I have a wife, kids, and a house that needs help.
My money get spent there first then my car.
And a Car Budget is what I don't have.
until I can finish it, I will continue to learn

Pro-Touring is the coolest car trend yet.
Takes more time and money than I have
and makes me really happy to think about.

My Name is Peter
And I am Pro-Touring!!!

[Piet]

Double post...

[6'9"Witha69]

I pronounce it 'CAMARO' not 'CAMERO'
Someone else like me!!!! I get razzed all the time for it.

I know, I know! :offtopic:

[vanzuuk1]

Dennis I was being a little vague but I meant long term, if you keep going to the track the odds will catch up to you. At a typical track day , how many guys end up in dirt? (or grass,wall,kitty litter) I have raced bikes on the east coast but I have never been to a pt type track day so maybe I am wrong.If you can give me an overview of how many cars leave on a flatbed I would be curious.

Also do you think it is even worth going to a track day (lime rock is close to me.) with my stock discs/front drums/rear setup.I would have fresh lines, pads and fluid but thats it. I think the stock brakes would last about two laps but again I could be wrong.

If anyone takes their car , street or vintage racer , to lime rock I would love to hear from you.I had a few questions about the track, you could post here or email me at [email protected].
thanks

[nancejd]

I think everyone should use their car for what they built it to do, and if that is to sit on a trailer, more power to 'em. Personally I have a hard time not driving a car that I own, which is why I'm not big into restoring cars in the first place. Different strokes for different folks.

I don't know that my car will see more than an autocross and the dragstrip, but honestly, I'm building it to drive on the street anyway. Isn't this hobby suppossed to be fun? If you need someone else's opinion to validate what you do, maybe what you are doing with your car isn't your problem.

[6'9"Witha69]

I think everyone should use their car for what they built it to do, and if that is to sit on a trailer, more power to 'em. Personally I have a hard time not driving a car that I own, which is why I'm not big into restoring cars in the first place. Different strokes for different folks.

I don't know that my car will see more than an autocross and the dragstrip, but honestly, I'm building it to drive on the street anyway. Isn't this hobby suppossed to be fun? If you need someone else's opinion to validate what you do, maybe what you are doing with your car isn't your problem.
My sentiment exactly

[andrewb70]

WOW... what a long read. I found it pretty interesting.
Well here is my 2 cents. (Apologies to Joe Canadian... and his 'I am Canadian' beer rant)

Hey, I'm not millionaire, or a race engineer...
I don't live in a Monster Garage, eat at SEMA dinners, or own a 'Mule'...
and I don't know Johnny, Steve or Joe from Primedia well,
although I'm certain they're really really nice.

I have a old American car, not a Lemans Racer...
I speak in Layman's language, not 'Bumpsteer'-speak
I pronounce it 'CAMARO' not 'CAMERO'...

I can proudly say 'My car has not seen the light of day this year'
I believe in eventually driving my car, not complaining about others for driving theirs.
Learning about new stuff, not putting down others ideas.
I have a wife, kids, and a house that needs help.
My money get spent there first then my car.
And a Car Budget is what I don't have.
until I can finish it, I will continue to learn

Pro-Touring is the coolest car trend yet.
Takes more time and money than I have
and makes me really happy to think about.

My Name is Peter
And I am Pro-Touring!!!


Well said.

Andrew

[apex69]

Dennis I was being a little vague but I meant long term, if you keep going to the track the odds will catch up to you. At a typical track day , how many guys end up in dirt? (or grass,wall,kitty litter) I have raced bikes on the east coast but I have never been to a pt type track day so maybe I am wrong.If you can give me an overview of how many cars leave on a flatbed I would be curious.

Also do you think it is even worth going to a track day (lime rock is close to me.) with my stock discs/front drums/rear setup.I would have fresh lines, pads and fluid but thats it. I think the stock brakes would last about two laps but again I could be wrong.

If anyone takes their car , street or vintage racer , to lime rock I would love to hear from you.I had a few questions about the track, you could post here or email me at [email protected].
thanks


PHR event page, scroll 2/3 of the way down http://popularhotrodding.com/events/0409phr_speed/

you can do it man! Like this guy>>>

Franklin, Wisconsin resident Jeff Van Buren made the short trip up to Road America with his newly-acquired '67 Camaro to see what it could handle. The 454-powered F-body was still sporting stock discs in the front and stock drums in the rear and the only changes Van Buren made prior to hitting the track was changing the pads and bleeding the brakes. The engine ran solid and the drums never locked up, but Jeff wondered if they were biased properly, as he found himself steering with the throttle throughout the weekend to compensate for a slight push.

[6'9"Witha69]

Other than the Polymatrix pads, didn't Adam (CAMAROBOY69) race with stock a Disc/Drum setup?

[vanzuuk1]

Well I guess there is only one way to find out...

I currently have the original suspension with bent leaf springs and clunking front end but I am a few paychecks away from suspension,rearend and frame connecters.Maybe cage and brakes over the winter.

stay tuned.

[Steve1968LS2]

I just drove a friggin V6 automatic mustang on the track all day..

The brakes sucked.. the suspension sucked.. (the tires were great)..

I didn't hit a wall.. didn't spin out and HAD A F'ING BLAST!!!

Why? because I drove within the performance envelope of the car and myself.. nobody got mad that they had to pass me..

You do not have to drive like Earnhart to have fun at an open track day.. in fact it is safer than driving on the street.

[Steve1968LS2]

Dennis I was being a little vague but I meant long term, if you keep going to the track the odds will catch up to you. At a typical track day , how many guys end up in dirt? (or grass,wall,kitty litter) [/email].
thanks

I guess if you ever do anything it will eventually catch up with you..

We had 50 cars at track day today.. and at a track with lots of walls (california speedway)..

Sure there was a spin or two.. but nobody hit anything and nobody broke thier cars.. Do cars break on track day? sure.. cars break on the freeway and unless your gonna granny shift you car and stay under 25mph on the highway you will probley break it there as well.

Also, going off into the dirt = a very dirty car -- one quick wash and detail and it is just a cool story to share with your friends.

Open track days are as safe or as dangerous as you make it (or as the other drivers make it)..

[vanzuuk1]

Thank You Steve, that was what I was wondering. The breakages dont bother me, its the thought of my wrecked car pulling in on a flatbed with all the parts piled in the interior.I know bikes are different but ,but I saw a lot of destroyed bikes back in the day.An x-ray of my neck will show you what can happen when a bike on slicks goes into the dirt at a high rate of speed.

I guess the way for me to find out is to get to the track, so my first step is to go to lime rock this weekend and check out the scca event, do a little research and enjoy the racing. This season I will start with autocross and maybe a drift event until I have a rollbar or cage.


PS anyone going to lime rock this weekend look for the dk. green 69 with N.Y. plates.

[Rick Dorion]

For three years (in the 70's) I did 4-5 time trials a year in my 240Z. I put DOT4 brake fluid in, upgraded pads, sway bars, springs and koni's and experienced no brake or other problems. I did go to race tires but was very competative. Never spun or went off track and this was my daily driver. I love the course and want to go back.

[CAMAROBOY69]

Dennis I was being a little vague but I meant long term, if you keep going to the track the odds will catch up to you. At a typical track day , how many guys end up in dirt? (or grass,wall,kitty litter) I have raced bikes on the east coast but I have never been to a pt type track day so maybe I am wrong.If you can give me an overview of how many cars leave on a flatbed I would be curious.

Also do you think it is even worth going to a track day (lime rock is close to me.) with my stock discs/front drums/rear setup.I would have fresh lines, pads and fluid but thats it. I think the stock brakes would last about two laps but again I could be wrong.

If anyone takes their car , street or vintage racer , to lime rock I would love to hear from you.I had a few questions about the track, you could post here or email me at [email protected].
thanks
Sorry I missed this thread but I wanted to read Johnnys post before posting. I still havent read it but I will answer your question. You will be perfectly fine at the track with stock brakes. All I put on my car was Wilwood pads on the front and high temp brake fluid and thats it. My brakes are bone stock and I had no problem keeping up with brand new corvettes and mustangs. I beat the heck out of the car all day long and still drove it all the way back home. I even posted the videos on this site. https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7451

Other than the Polymatrix pads, didn't Adam (CAMAROBOY69) race with stock a Disc/Drum setup?
Yes only Wilwood polymatrix pads up front and thanks for the props. :)

[trapin]

WOW... what a long read. I found it pretty interesting.
Well here is my 2 cents. (Apologies to Joe Canadian... and his 'I am Canadian' beer rant)

Hey, I'm not millionaire, or a race engineer...
I don't live in a Monster Garage, eat at SEMA dinners, or own a 'Mule'...
and I don't know Johnny, Steve or Joe from Primedia well,
although I'm certain they're really really nice.

I have a old American car, not a Lemans Racer...
I speak in Layman's language, not 'Bumpsteer'-speak
I pronounce it 'CAMARO' not 'CAMERO'...

I can proudly say 'My car has not seen the light of day this year'
I believe in eventually driving my car, not complaining about others for driving theirs.
Learning about new stuff, not putting down others ideas.
I have a wife, kids, and a house that needs help.
My money get spent there first then my car.
And a Car Budget is what I don't have.
until I can finish it, I will continue to learn

Pro-Touring is the coolest car trend yet.
Takes more time and money than I have
and makes me really happy to think about.

My Name is Peter
And I am Pro-Touring!!!
Yes......VERY well said.

Amen brother!!! :cheers:

[vanzuuk1]

Thank you camaroboy, I got the info I needed. Suspension and cage are next, in for a penny in for a pound.It sounds like track days are not as mad max as I thought they were.

[Steve1968LS2]

Thank you camaroboy, I got the info I needed. Suspension and cage are next, in for a penny in for a pound.It sounds like track days are not as mad max as I thought they were.

Just like regular "highway driving" there can always be idiots that make it dangerous.. but, unlike the highway the fools are usually kicked off before they cause an incidnet..

A controled track is always safer than the open road with joe public..

Besides.. no tickets!!! woot!!

Just make sure you go where a good EXPERIENCED group like NASA is running the deal..