NHTSA expected to propose requiring black boxes in all new cars

[Tony_SS]

I'm surprised it even took them this long...

http://www.examiner.com/finance-examiner-in-national/new-car-purchases-starting-june-will-have-a-mandatory-black-box-installed

[Vicinity]

Good thing I don't like new cars.

:)

[Amatouring]

What makes you think they will let you have an old car that doesn't have a "black box" for very much longer?

[CRead01]

yet another reason for me not to buy a new car.

[Tony_SS]

Good thing I don't like new cars.

:)

Good thing I can't afford them. lol

[moreHP]

What a bunch of BS that is! Pretty soon you will just get a speeding ticket in the mail because the little box ratted you out.

Not that I have any desire for a new car, but this really puts me off on wanting one.

[Vicinity]

What makes you think they will let you have an old car that doesn't have a "black box" for very much longer?

Kind of hard to data log something that has a carburetor.


Good thing I can't afford them. lol

Yeah, that too. :(

[parsonsj]

From a reliable source, with actual facts:

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2011/05/automotive-black-boxes/

Two excerpts:
1. (my emphasis)
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration will later this year propose a requirement that all new vehicles contain an event data recorder, known more commonly as a “black box.” The device, similar to those found in aircraft, records vehicle inputs and, in the event of a crash, provides a snapshot of the final moments before impact.

That snapshot could be viewed by law enforcement, insurance companies and automakers. The device cannot be turned off, and you’ll probably know little more about it than the legal disclosure you’ll find in the owner’s manual.

The proposal looks to some like a gross overreach of government authority, or perhaps an effort by Uncle Sam, the insurance industry and even the automakers to keep tabs on what drivers are doing. But if you’re driving a car with airbags, chances are there’s already one of these devices under your hood.

Automakers have long installed electronic data recorders in their automobiles, and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has since late 2006 required automakers to tell consumers about the devices. That federal rule also outlines what information is recorded and stipulates that it be used to increase vehicle safety.

Now the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is considering a proposal that would “expand the availability and future utility of EDR data” — in other words, a possible requirement that all automobiles have the devices. The proposal is expected sometime this year. A separate discussion would outline exactly what data would be collected.


And 2.


Before shunning new cars and buying a 1953 MG TD to avoid secret tracking devices, it helps to see how the information gleaned from event data recorders is used.

General Motors has been a leader in event data recorder technology, installing them in nearly all vehicles with airbags since the early 1990s. It currently installs Bosch EDRs in all vehicles sold in North America. The technology has evolved and now collects as many as 30 data points, said Brian Everest, GM’s senior manager of field incidents.

“In the early ’90s we could get diagnostic data, seatbelt use and crash severity,” Everest said. “Currently, we can get crash severity, buckle status, precrash data related to how many events the vehicle may have been in and brake application.”

The newest vehicles also can determine steering input and whether lane departure warning systems were turned on.

That info is invaluable in determining how a car responds in a crash. With a vehicle owner or lessee’s permission, crash investigators with access to the data pass on the EDR records to GM, which can determine whether vehicle systems or driver error contributed to an accident. They also can discover what vehicle systems and technologies prevented serious injuries or death.

“It’s about trying to understand what a particular system’s performance did before a crash,” Everest said.

[406 Q-ship]

Most new models have had this abilities for the last few years. I will bet that if they were to use it as evidence in a criminal case that it will end up going all the way to the SCOTUS under the 4th and 5th amendment. It will require a search warrent to obtain the information if it were tried to used against a citizen in any criminal case. I thought there was a deal where the owner could request that the black boxes ability to gather and store information be disabled.

[parsonsj]

I will bet that if they were to use it as evidence in a criminal case that it will end up going all the way to the SCOTUS under the 4th and 5th amendment.From a Fox News article from 2004: Already, prosecutors are using information from automobile Black Boxes as evidence against drivers. Last year, one Robert Christmann was convicted in a New York traffic fatality based upon information downloaded from his car’s Black Box.

The rest of the story:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,141048,00.html

[JEFFTATE]

What a bunch of BS that is! Pretty soon you will just get a speeding ticket in the mail because the little box ratted you out.



Get used to it .

[Tony_SS]

From a reliable source, with actual facts:

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2011/05/automotive-black-boxes/

Two excerpts:
1. (my emphasis)
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration will later this year propose a requirement that all new vehicles contain an event data recorder, known more commonly as a “black box.” The device, similar to those found in aircraft, records vehicle inputs and, in the event of a crash, provides a snapshot of the final moments before impact.

That snapshot could be viewed by law enforcement, insurance companies and automakers. The device cannot be turned off, and you’ll probably know little more about it than the legal disclosure you’ll find in the owner’s manual.

The proposal looks to some like a gross overreach of government authority, or perhaps an effort by Uncle Sam, the insurance industry and even the automakers to keep tabs on what drivers are doing. But if you’re driving a car with airbags, chances are there’s already one of these devices under your hood.

Automakers have long installed electronic data recorders in their automobiles, and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has since late 2006 required automakers to tell consumers about the devices. That federal rule also outlines what information is recorded and stipulates that it be used to increase vehicle safety.

Now the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is considering a proposal that would “expand the availability and future utility of EDR data” — in other words, a possible requirement that all automobiles have the devices. The proposal is expected sometime this year. A separate discussion would outline exactly what data would be collected.


And 2.


Before shunning new cars and buying a 1953 MG TD to avoid secret tracking devices, it helps to see how the information gleaned from event data recorders is used.

General Motors has been a leader in event data recorder technology, installing them in nearly all vehicles with airbags since the early 1990s. It currently installs Bosch EDRs in all vehicles sold in North America. The technology has evolved and now collects as many as 30 data points, said Brian Everest, GM’s senior manager of field incidents.

“In the early ’90s we could get diagnostic data, seatbelt use and crash severity,” Everest said. “Currently, we can get crash severity, buckle status, precrash data related to how many events the vehicle may have been in and brake application.”

The newest vehicles also can determine steering input and whether lane departure warning systems were turned on.

That info is invaluable in determining how a car responds in a crash. With a vehicle owner or lessee’s permission, crash investigators with access to the data pass on the EDR records to GM, which can determine whether vehicle systems or driver error contributed to an accident. They also can discover what vehicle systems and technologies prevented serious injuries or death.

“It’s about trying to understand what a particular system’s performance did before a crash,” Everest said.

I would like to point out the semantical word games from the wired article.


Now the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is considering a proposal that would “expand the availability and future utility of EDR data” — in other words, a possible requirement that all automobiles have the devices. The proposal is expected sometime this year. A separate discussion would outline exactly what data would be collected.

If the proposal is actually being expected, that negates any sort of "consideration", does it not?

So if you want to rename the title again, how about:

NHTSA expected to propose requiring black boxes in all new cars

[parsonsj]

So if you want to rename the title again, how about:

NHTSA expected to propose requiring black boxes in all new carsNo problem.

[Tony_SS]

Before shunning new cars and buying a 1953 MG TD to avoid secret tracking devices, it helps to see how the information gleaned from event data recorders is used.

General Motors has been a leader in event data recorder technology, installing them in nearly all vehicles with airbags since the early 1990s. It currently installs Bosch EDRs in all vehicles sold in North America. The technology has evolved and now collects as many as 30 data points, said Brian Everest, GM’s senior manager of field incidents.

“In the early ’90s we could get diagnostic data, seatbelt use and crash severity,” Everest said. “Currently, we can get crash severity, buckle status, precrash data related to how many events the vehicle may have been in and brake application.”

The newest vehicles also can determine steering input and whether lane departure warning systems were turned on.

That info is invaluable in determining how a car responds in a crash. With a vehicle owner or lessee’s permission, crash investigators with access to the data pass on the EDR records to GM, which can determine whether vehicle systems or driver error contributed to an accident. They also can discover what vehicle systems and technologies prevented serious injuries or death.

“It’s about trying to understand what a particular system’s performance did before a crash,” Everest said.

This is SOP. Yes black boxes have long been in new cars. They are now just implementing the CYA legal groundwork to expand the use (and abuse) of what's already in place.

[TheJDMan]

a Fox News article

That's your first mistake! Fox is not news, it's propaganda.

[parsonsj]

Fox is not news, it's propaganda.Too funny. We mostly agree about that, but let's keep the thread on the NHTSA and not devolve into competing news networks and their messaging.

[EFI69Cam]

What scares me more than black boxes is On-Star. With that they don't need to plug into the vehicle, and any information on the vehicle's data network is available to them.

[jknight16]

Or the "Snapshot" discount being offered by Progressive....no thank you!

I know the BMW M cars had enhanced playback functionality (not sure if it was built into the ECM or....) starting in the 90's so that they could tell what was being done with the car when an Engine/Gearbox/Differential warranty claim came through. I believe only the factory could access the data. They didn't ask for it often, but when they did, it usually worked in their favor.

One example I remember was them denying an engine claim because the guy downshifted from 5th to 2nd at a good bit more than 100 mph. The customer exclaimed "I thought the engine was supposed to cutout at a certain RPM", to which the service manager responded "well technically it did sir".

[Tony_SS]

Yes, like I said, this technology is nothing new. They are just preparing to lay the groundwork to legally be able to tap into and exploit the information as needed. Imagine traffic tickets via GPS, location tracking at a traffic stop or check-point, and so on.

"No officer, I have not been drinking." "Really, because it says here, you just left Hooters 20 mins ago... Step out of the car"

[mpozzi]

Man ... where do I start???

I am certified as a CDR Technician and an Analyst which means I can gather, or image, the stored crash data and then analyze it for content. The data stream seen by the Air Bag Control Module and other related system computers for an automobile is continual and circular. On an airplane, it starts and continues throughout the flight. At the time of an accident that involves negative acceleration and resulting delta-V from the front or sides, this circular data stream is locked and stored as either a non-deployment or a deployment event depending on if you got airbags or belt pre-tensioners. If it's a newer vehicle, more pre-crash data is captured. And on these newer vehicles, it can be up to 600 milliseconds worth. So if you're out there in a GenV Camaro rockin' it before running out of talent and hitting a tree, six seconds of your silliness before car met timber may be stored. Throttle AND accelerator pedal percentage, brake pedal applied, engine rpm, vehicle speed, and more ... data that was stored before the ACM commanded that deployment event where it sucked to be you!!

So who can get it??? Definitely law enforcement can if your actions involve a crime and the vehicle will be stored until everyone that has an interest is present for the CDR imaging process. I can't get at it unless you, the registered owner, authorize it in writing. And not all vehicles' ACM's (airbag control modules) are able to be accessed by Crash Data Retrieval methods but the Big Three models are and most have been since the early 1990's. The imports are soon to follow and it seems I get a weekly email from CDR, Bosch Vetronix or other investigation companies listing new accessible models. And the manufacturer's can definitely get this data if they're requested to by either the registered owner or from a subpoena (legal request). The data doesn't go away and the download process images the data leaving it for others to do so again at a later date. Once the module is locked, it's locked.

And every vehicle that is equipped with a Supplemental Restraint System has a control module that can process, calculate, deploy bags if necessary, and then lock and store appropriate crash data.

Oh ... and not all "SRS black boxes" are black as some are silver!!

Mary Pozzi

[ErikLS2]

You'd be surprised what's available to even dealership technicians on a vehicle's data list. One I've used more than once has to do with knock control and can give a pretty accurate sense of what grade of gas has been put in the car. It goes something like this:

Complaint: This car doesn't get near the gas mileage (or perform as well as) it should.

Response: Well it looks here like you're putting regular in it when it requires premium for optimum performance.