Losing my mind; Can't keep it cool...

[Trevon]

:help:

'78 Trans Am with an Olds 455

I know I am pretty new here, and starting threads before searching is...not great, but I have read for a while on here before about cooling the engine but it wasn't much of a concern as I used to have slight overheating issues at 80+ degrees when not on the freeway (in town, stop and go).

Well, I thought I had solved it for sure -- purchased about as big of a radiator that Be Cool makes and mounted it up and that went well, also dumped the 6 blade steel and aluminum flex fan (don't remember what its called exactly hope you know what I mean) for a 14" electric fan. Put that on the radiator as a puller and had 2 10" fans lying around and I through them on the front as pushers.

Today I finally got around to changing my oil (upped the weight a little to fix my low oil pressure, went from 5-8 and operating temp [160-190*F] to 20+ psi -- so that worked and I was happy). Just took the car out for a little drive, went to fill it up but the gas station I stopped at was not working so I said oh well and just drove around town :6gears:. I have a 160* thermostat and I can tell it starts opening at exactly 160*. So I hit the fan on and it just kept climbing and climbing, albeit slowly (was out for probably 20-30 minutes) and the temp made it to 210 as I was pulling in the garage -- this is about 5-10, maybe 15, degrees shy of it stalling out.

This issue is starting to make me unbelievably frustrated :throw:. At the moment I have lost all interest and motivation for working on my car; I had enough faith in it to be a daily driver if it didn't over heat. It was cooler than 65 degrees out side and still climbed that high. Now I started wondering if I had my fans wired up wrong. They are connected straight to the battery that goes to a switch, then a 10A fusible link, and onto the fan...BUT when I turn on 1 fan the volts drops from 14 to a little over 12, when I turn on all the fans, it drops to between 10-11 volts (kinda the marked "red zone").

I have never been in a car where I can watch the voltage change depending upon what components are turned on. I have a brand new (from early this year, maybe 5 hours driving time) 110A alternator recommended by a very good local hot rod shop -- they use them on all the vehicles they make and never have any issues with high power stereos, fans, lighting, and any other electrical components; they're website is currently down. Now should I connect them to the alternator...did I do something wrong...I don't even know what to ask.

I thought I was decent at wiring and such, but as I have said this is making me quite perturbed. :banghead:

[Chad-1stGen]

You got a lot going on in this post.

Your original overheating problem sounded like an airflow issue. I don't have much faith in aftermarket electric fans. Especially some of the junky Autoparts ones.

Did you wire the fans with a relay? Where Sid you grab power from for the fan? If you grab power from under the dash or near were the volt meter reads then that may be your voltage drop issue. Check your voltage at the back of the alternator to be sure.

Now are you still only having overheating issues at slower speeds or on the freeway too?

[Trevon]

Only in town, when I hit speeds of 60+ it likes to cool right down to 160 at decent temperatures (haven't really tested it yet as we've had no days over 65...). I spent a lot of time researching cooling before making any purchases -- overheating at idle or slow speed = airflow, at speed could be liquid, mixture, timing...so many variables.

I do not have a relay on it now and it is battery-switch-10A fuse in link (not in the fuse box under the dash)-fan-ground. Completely on its own circuit.

I didn't do any poking around with a voltmeter yet...kinda just parked it in the garage n left for now; my car is about 20 minutes away from me, but with these ideas and more I will be there a lot for this 4 day weekend.

[THE TECH]

Seems to be several possible issues here. 3 fans for the cooling is definitely overkill. You need to determine if the main fan is capable of supporting your car. Also, with the electric ones, are you sure that they are flowing air in the correct direction? I would start with just using the main one and taking off the others for now. If you are sure that the thermostat is working correctly, are you sure there isn't a motor issue or head gasket problem? You mention both a cooling issue and oil pressure issue. 10amps is probably not a large enough fuse for a fan setup so you may need to look into that.

The oil pressure issue concerns me too. Adding heavier weight oil is somewhat of a bandaid similar to using all those fans for the cooling. These signs start to point at a motor issue that you may want to look into. Are you burning water or oil?

What size alternator are you using? What other electrical items are on the car?

[Cvarney]

I've got an olds 455 as well in a Lemans. I am currently running a summit brand radiator, can't recall the exact size but fairly close to stock, cross flow with a taurus fan. Mine normall runs around 200ish except on chilly days then maybe 180ish. However I've got a 195* t-stat.
If it were me, I would power the from from a relay and use the switch to control the relay. That way you dont have a long run for the power wire. And if I'm reading you right you are running 3 fans on one power circuit with a 10amp link in the line? If that is the case I would almost swear that between all 3 the pull way more than 10 amps. I'd test the fans and see what amperage they pull each and run a relay for each fan, or at least one for the 14" and one for the two 10" each with thier own power wire with an appropriate sized link or inline fuse. You can pick relays up at most local parts stores or radio shack. I power mine off the battery as well. Controls being run through a temp switch, cheapy kind that just has a probe you insert in the radiator, going to a relay. Then the relay will "switch" the power on and off for the fan as it's energized from the temp switch. With a fusable link going to the relay power and an inline fuse going to the fan. Or the other way around I can't recall of the top of my head. The type of fuse slips my memory as well, but it's supposed to act like a time delay type so it doesn't pop when the amps spike as the fan comes on. Biggest relay I could find for mine was like 35 or 40 amps locally. Fan pulls quite a few more but I've had no problems with it. I keep a proper one in the car with me and when that one fries I figure I'll change it out.
Hope this helps some
C

*edit
I wrote this up while you all were posting the replies. Sorry for redundant relay info.

[Rod]

As Chad said its a commom airflow problem! to much of a good thing!! air bouncing everywere

1- get rid of the pusher fans there flow rate, I'm sure is not the same as the other fans and together its creating a non cooling air vacuum

2- make sure the puller fan is within 2-3 inches or closer to the radiator (think fan spacer)

3- go back to a 180 thermostat the 160 allows the fluid to run thru the radiator to fast and it dosnt have any cool down time

4- use or make a fan shroud to close off the area the fan isnt

[Trevon]

I didn't know what oil the PO was running and somewhat foolishly put in conventional 5w-30 and used that for a while. Now I spend time on many forums and reading about the 455 on Olds' forums I have found that they commonly do have lower oil pressure...after reading quite a lot I just put in Valvoline VR1 20w-50 with ZDDPlus and the car did seem to run happier. Besides being a little on the rich side right now all seems pretty good, but I am toying around with the carb so that should be good soon.

Very certain all the gaskets are good, no bubbles or any drops of coolant in the old oil I took out; no leaks anywhere. Thermostat gasket went the beginning of this year, only lost a couple ounces, caught it right away and fixed that.

The fans are going in the correct direction and definitely feels like it is flowing a lot of air; I can put my hand 1 foot in front of the grill and feel a good bit of air moving.

Wouldn't say anything is burning, with the 5w-30 I did occasionally have to add 1/4-1/2 quart every month-and-a-half or two, but it didn't seem to be too odd. My piston rings and valves are all working properly. Recently did a compression test all over 120 within 10% of each other (150-160psi)

There is so much experience here its making me feel dumb hah, but I really appreciate you taking the time to give me some answers, so thank you. I don't want to take shortcuts and such, I just don't have resources most have (car kept in friends garage, and there is a kind of small budget for it, plan to keep it forever though which is why is slowly turning pro touring...)

I forget at the moment what the alternator is, but typically when I am driving I only have an electric fuel pump (just a Holley something-r-other at 14psi regulated to 5-6psi) It does have an HEI flamethrower setup for ignition.

[THE TECH]

Glad to help. Hope the suggestions made here from everyone take you in the right direction.

[Trevon]

Okay, I will dump those pushers and I do need to make a shroud, but I did have another thought from another member (don't know if it was here) but I have seen someone use an assembly from a 4th gen T/A in a 2nd gen. I have found those setups for about $200 which isn't bad for 2 fans and a shroud so I think that is something to consider.

So the conclusion right now is that it is all overdone and I will probably do something temporary for the next month because I am then leaving the country for 6 months after June and will purchase better stuff whilst away. The car gets by for now and I will make minor adjustments for now and manage; cars not in perfect condition and I bought it to drive so I will take it easy and try to get some enjoyment out of it while I am still here. I really do appreciate the help and I will update as I make corrections, right now I've been up for 24 hours and I need some sleep :sleeping:

[AM.MSCL]

:help:
Well, I thought I had solved it for sure -- purchased about as big of a radiator that Be Cool makes and mounted it up and that went well, also dumped the 6 blade steel and aluminum flex fan
The stock Clutch fan is what you may be thinking of for a name. Was there a shroud on the radiator to allow the fan to do its job properly?

What is your timing set at?
Are you sure you not running the motor way to lean on fuel?
When you changed out the thermo did you completely flush the radiator fluid?

It sounds (from you other posts) you still do not have a shroud on the radiator; if this is the case then a fan that is mounted on the motor is just going to pull air through a small section of the fins. When you are going down the road the air is being forced through all the fins to provide more cooling.

[Chad-1stGen]

Are you sure bout the 10 amp rating on your fuse?

If you are running even one fan sucssfully off a 10A circuit (let alone all 3) then the fan will not have enough CFM to cool a 455 olds. All high quality high CFM fans will spike significantly above 10A when they turn on...

[Trevon]

Checked it out, the large fan is on 15A and the other 2 are also on a 15A fuse. Also poked around with a voltmeter and I am getting the lower voltage everywhere when the fans are running; I will get a relay on those circuits.

And I spent some time at the car today just to recheck timing and ...couldn't. Frustration is just building and building. Easily done timing on other Ford engines but this one I am at a loss. Maybe you can help with this as well...

No idea where the timing is and I hook up the timing light and immediately went to the passenger side with it and definitely saw a chalk mark with nothing to line it up against...after looking a bit I found the timing marks on the olds block is on the drivers side. They show -4 ATDC, 0 TDC, 4 BTDC, 8 BTDC, 12 BTDC. Thats it. Have read that initial timing should be at 12 BTDC but there are no marks near that at idle or with some gas.

There is a thick white line that is at the 12 o'clock position of the harmonic balance, probably about 4 inches from the highest timing indicator. Surely it cannot have that much initial timing so I don't know what is up with it. There are, however, 3 etched lines in the balancer (about 1/4" apart) with the highest line at about -1 or -2 ATDC. Cannot find any information on these.

Supposedly the engine was rebuilt about 3,500 miles before I purchased the car; not much modding, just rebuilding. I know someone will say my balancer slipped but I don't think that is the case; I guess it could be the wrong one on there. All seems to work just fine, no pinging under acceleration, no roughness once its warm. I really hate not knowing anyone with similar cars by me that can help...I don't know what else to say. I need help from an olds person, have found some tricks for the timing with them, but no real good information.

[NOT A TA]

I know this goes against the "modify everything, aftermarket is better" theory but.....Since your engine is basicly a stock rebuild, have you considered just installing a stock thermostat, radiator, shroud, fan with clutch, and an overflow bottle? It works, thats all I have in my bird and run it on track in temps over 100. I know people reading will be thinking OMG he has a stock cooling system in that car??!!! Well, ya, it seems to work OK so why get all crazy with it for now? When I build an engine that makes more power (and heat) then I'll worry about upgrading cooling if necessary. Stock systems were designed for stock vehicles to drive across the deserts without overheating, so if your 78 has stock trans and rear gears, then with a properly functioning stock cooling system on a basicly stock or mildly built engine you should be fine, no?

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/10/Sebring10309039-1.jpg

[Trevon]

That makes perfect sense, but that was what I had and when I started changing everything. I will go do a different thermostat and stuff on payday. Unfortunately I sold my fan for cheap to someone, but I just have always heard electric is a very easy upgrade so I can keep it. I do also still have the stock radiator.

I mean I can go in the hills and canyons by me and push the car and I don't have any issues until I just pull over for 10+ minutes or so of idling. I no its not supposed to be like that and then, as I said, this car could be daily driven!

I no the engine isn't from a T/A, but these issues shouldn't arise. Blah, just makin' me feel real down about my car lately.

[Trevon]

I am an ABSOLUTE DUMBASS. Haha, excuse me, but wow, my fans were fighting eachother. I cannot believe I was so friggin' stupid. I remember checking them and 3 people asked if they were fighting each other. I think my cooling issue is now solved but I didn't really go for a drive after figuring this out.... :smoke:

I am so mad at my self but glad its fixed...only to find my passenger door stuck shut :doh: Really hope the frame wasn't tweaked last couple times I jacked it, don't know how I could have but thats another story..