Let's have a debate....Small block Ford Windsor or new OHC Ford engine?

[trapin]

I got into an arguement over the weekend with my Cousin (who is an Engineer at Ford) about the best V8 performance engine in production today. In my opinion (and not to sound like a Homer) it's gotta be the LSX. Look at the aftermarket parts for them, all the retrofitting that is being done. I don't see ANY of that happening with the new Ford engines. Seems like whenever Ford wants more power out of them they have to slap a Supercharger on them. You don't have to do that with an LSX. And while we were on the subject, I told him I felt the small block Windsor was the best small block ever made and he called it a dinosaur and said their new OHC engines were much better. I gave him a wave off and a BAFANGOO!!! and headed back to the kitchen for another canolli.

So what say you, the masses? Let's talk it up. Would you rather have one of them new Ford OHC engines or the tried and true push rod Windsor. Also, did Ford make a mistake by going away from the Windsor and not trying to modernize it's design?

I find it interesting that the LSX has often been compared to the old Windsor and that there are even companies out there retrofitting LSX heads to it.

Makes you think...............:smoke:

[johnny68]

my 65 has had 2 small bock windsors i love them course im stuck in the dark ages hell i dont even have a dvr or cable box vcr all the way baby
john

[andrewb70]

The LSx engine platform took many features from a lot of different engines and combined them into a killer package. It shares more features from Ford engines than many GM guys want to admit. The bottom ends are similar to 427 side oilers and Hemis. The head bolt pattern is almost the same as a Windsor. The exhaust ports are so close together that many people that do swaps into various cars use Ford headers and replace the flange. The similarities continue...

In my opinion there are a couple of reasons that classic Fords haven't experienced the rash of modern engine installations that their GM counterparts have. The main reason is that modern Ford engines are HUGE and classic Ford muscle cars have narrow engine bays because of the shock towers. To top it off, Ford has been slow to offer support to the aftermarket with various components, such as ECU and harness kits, and other critical pieces that make swaps easier. This perfect trifecta of factors has lead to the use of traditional engine platforms for Fords.

However, I think Ford is on the right track with their "Coyote" engine. It is an aluminum block engine that makes great power. Honestly, it is very impressive to see a 5.0L engine that makes over 400RWHP. That's LS3 territory with 1.2L less displacement. Ford is also offering an ECU and harness package for the Coyote which will make swaps easier. The width of the engine is still an issue, but I think more people will take the plunge of modifying the shock towers to gain the power and drivability that a modern engine can offer.

Andrew

[406 Q-ship]

Tony I got to say that the old Mod Motor Ford has been overshaddowed by the LS series engine, and it needed the supercharger to get it done. All that has changed now, the Coyote is the possible LS for Ford. It is an awesome design that is still in its infancy and will get support from the performance industry. The TTi valve timing is going to be the biggest herdle for the industry to climb, but once that is done.....watch out. GM powertrain is going to have step up, Ford has definatly shown a good hand in the performance engine card game. Like Andrew says the width of the new DOHC 5.0 Ford is it hinderence for installation into early Mustang/Torino/Falcon/Fairlanes, but a custom front suspension Ford with a Coyote and a TKO would be a barrel fun to build........Make mine a 1970 Torino GT. Just to be clear I am a died in the wool GM guy that bleeds chevy orange (buick red sometimes).

[LowFast]

Aside from the new Coyote 5.0, the older Windsor engines dollar for dollar can outpower their modular counterpart when under the 500hp threshold. Above that the moudulars start to shine when you move into forced induction and big power (especially given the strength of the modular blocks). I have gone back and forth on this for my Falcon build, I know for the money I can build a stout little 347 and make good all around power, but instead have decided to go 3v or 4v moudular because I enjoy the revy nature and smooth power delivery. In the end the modular will cost me more $$ to get the same power level much like building an LS costs more than an old school chevy 350.

[Nessumsar]

If I could afford it I would put a Coyote in my Nova, without thinking twice. It has all of the benefits of the LSX, and then some with the VVT DOHC.

[trapin]

Hmm...I am unaware of the Coyote engine that Ford is using. How does this one differ from the 5.0 DOHC engine this is in production now? Is the Coyote in production? And what exactly makes it better for retrofitting?

Of course I will Google this but I'd like to hear your thoughts on it as well.

[LowFast]

Coyote is the new DOHC 5.0 (refered to as Coyote because it helps avoid confusion with old SBF 302 also known as 5.0)

The new engine is a DOHC design like the 4v modular but it is not as wide which helps for getting it into tight engine bays. The only issue needing to be solved by the aftermarket is how to run A/C and a ps pump since the mustang uses electric assisted steering. I would go Coyote, and might still, if it wern't for the cost being as it is so new to the market. Maybe as people start to do stupid things with thier 2011+ stangs takeouts will show up in the yards for cheap.

[Vicinity]

Coyote is the new DOHC 5.0 (refered to as Coyote because it helps avoid confusion with old SBF 302 also known as 5.0)

The new engine is a DOHC design like the 4v modular but it is not as wide which helps for getting it into tight engine bays. The only issue needing to be solved by the aftermarket is how to run A/C and a ps pump since the mustang uses electric assisted steering. I would go Coyote, and might still, if it wern't for the cost being as it is so new to the market. Maybe as people start to do stupid things with thier 2011+ stangs takeouts will show up in the yards for cheap.

I can't wait to start seeing PT builds with Coyotes.

[andrewb70]

Coyote is the new DOHC 5.0 (refered to as Coyote because it helps avoid confusion with old SBF 302 also known as 5.0)

The new engine is a DOHC design like the 4v modular but it is not as wide which helps for getting it into tight engine bays. The only issue needing to be solved by the aftermarket is how to run A/C and a ps pump since the mustang uses electric assisted steering. I would go Coyote, and might still, if it wern't for the cost being as it is so new to the market. Maybe as people start to do stupid things with thier 2011+ stangs takeouts will show up in the yards for cheap.

The Coyote is also being used as the standard engine in the trucks. That will ensure a long steady supply of these engines. Think about how the LSx engine family benefited from the fact that it was used in trucks and in cars.

Andrew

[trapin]

How is the aftermarket on these engines (i.e cylinder heads, camshafts, intakes, exhaust, short block components?

[andrewb70]

How is the aftermarket on these engines (i.e cylinder heads, camshafts, intakes, exhaust, short block components?

Well, considering that the Coyote came out in 2010, the aftermarket is in its infancy. Cam swaps have always been a big deal for mod motors. With the DOHC architecture you need 4 cams which equates to more than $1000 to do a cam swap.

http://www.seanhylandmotorsport.com/engines/modular-crate-engines/2011-5-0-coyote-engine/#powersteering

Andrew

[moreHP]

I just think that the LSX is the roadrunner and will always get away from the coyote!

[406 Q-ship]

The Coyote was released to the public in the 2011 GT Mustangs. The biggest downside the 5.0 Coyote is the same one the old mod motors had, they can't not easily enlarged to bigger cubic inches. Bore spacing is very tight like the old 4.6/5.4 OHC engine.

[Nessumsar]

The Coyote was not released to the public in the 2011 GT Mustangs. The biggest downside the 5.0 Coyote is the same one the old mod motors had, they can't not easily enlarged to bigger cubic inches. Bore spacing is very tight like the old 4.6/5.4 OHC engine.

While this is true, we all know you don't need large cube to make large power; its all in head design and cam timing. Look at the current BMW v8...

With some head porting, headers, and a tune I wouldn't be surprised to see LS7 power; and that is with 2.0 less liters!

[Mr. Anderson]

For the most part I am not a Ford guy and still wasn't when I bought my first Bullitt 7 or 8 years ago. Even now i really don't care much for most Fords built after '40 and before Fox bodies (with a few exceptions) or any older Mustang that isn't a fastback, so I am therefore quite ignorant of any engine pre-dating the 4.6 overhead cams. The 5.0 Fox-era engines I really wouldn't ever want to have anything to do with, but I am I big fan of the 32 valve twin cam 4.6's and the new Coyote has really piqued my interest. I'd love to drop one in an early cougar and go to town.

[dontlifttoshift]

With some head porting, headers, and a tune I wouldn't be surprised to see LS7 power; and that is with 2.0 less liters!

Yep....with a torque curve that starts at about 5000 rpm. the reverse to that is that Fox 5.0's always spanked LT1's with similar mods. with 45 less cubes.

If you look at the whole picture, its not just about horsepower. Packagin, serviceability, and the ability for the aftermarket to support a platform easily is what makes a great Hot Rod engine. Its what made the small block chevy the engine of choice for 50 years and its why the LS is its replacement in the aftermarket.

When Ford blew their load engineering the mod motor in the 90's it was at great expense, had they invested that money in a GEN 2 windsor they wouldn't have to retool every 3 years to get another 50 horsepower. They have tried, 2 valve, 3 valve, 4 valve and when they want to go faster they just stab a blower on it. I would be willing to bet GM outsells Ford 4 to 1 on crate engines just based on packaging.

For me windsor wins, light, powerful, simple, and relatively inexpensive

[LowFast]

Yep....with a torque curve that starts at about 5000 rpm.

Spoken out of ignorance?

The new DOHC 5.0 has a very fat torque curve. Check out a few of the mustang boards and report back, even in its infancy the Coyote is putting major power to the wheels with relatively minor mods.

[dontlifttoshift]

[QUOTE=LowFast;803274]Spoken out of ignorance?QUOTE]

Ouch! I WILL NOT check out the mustang boards, see it really doesn't matter to me, it was just an opinion, but since your all about facts show me a dyno chart of a 5.0 making 505 ponies, and make sure the torque curve is on there. Again I have nothing to prove here I made an observation, if I am wrong....that's okay, too.

Oh, you didn't address the weight and packaging.

[Nessumsar]

show me a dyno chart of a 5.0 making 505 ponies, and make sure the torque curve is on there.

AdcOqkpKmug

[dontlifttoshift]

COOL! it really starts making torque at about 4 grand...

[LowFast]

Think you miss read the chart, take another look, at 4k it is almost 415ftlbs and that is at the rear wheels, that is close to 475 at the crank What 302 cubic inch SBF's do you have dynos from that are making over 505hp at the wheels and surpass 400+ftlbs at the wheels before 4k naturally aspirated? Not to mention that pulls clean and strong up to 7500rpm, and can idle around town pulling down 25mpg on the highway. I agree the previous modulars have been decent at best, but the new DOHC 5.0 is a beast.

[Kenova]

For me, it all comes down to packaging. I just feel that OHC engines are just too friggin' big for the amount of displacement they offer. I wouldn't even entertain the thought of a cam change on a four cam engine.
Some of the power levels achieved with Ford's mod motors are impressive but they seem to carry a pretty hefty price tag. I would much rather put the money into a Windsor and forsake some horsepower for more torque. With today's valve train technology you could build a Windsor to rev almost as high as a mod motor, if a 7000 rpm engine is something that turns your crank.

Ken

[1red68]

I want a Coyote!!!! :)

[dontlifttoshift]

Think you miss read the chart, take another look, at 4k it is almost 415ftlbs and that is at the rear wheels, that is close to 475 at the crank What 302 cubic inch SBF's do you have dynos from that are making over 505hp at the wheels and surpass 400+ftlbs at the wheels before 4k naturally aspirated? Not to mention that pulls clean and strong up to 7500rpm, and can idle around town pulling down 25mpg on the highway. I agree the previous modulars have been decent at best, but the new DOHC 5.0 is a beast.

your right, I missed something, I edited my last post and stand corrected......But I'll still take a roush 427 over the packaging nightmare.....

[406 Q-ship]

While this is true, we all know you don't need large cube to make large power; its all in head design and cam timing. Look at the current BMW v8...
With some head porting, headers, and a tune I wouldn't be surprised to see LS7 power; and that is with 2.0 less liters!

Well yes you can get 500 hp out of 2.0 liters, the lack of torque would not be fun. What is great about the new 5.0 is that the VVT make the engine have a better torque curve than the original 5 liters.

[406 Q-ship]

Yep....with a torque curve that starts at about 5000 rpm. the reverse to that is that Fox 5.0's always spanked LT1's with similar mods. with 45 less cubes.


The Old 5.0 GT did not spank the LT1, you got that way backwards. You might have meant the TPI (L98) 350 that ran with the Gt 5.0s (not a spanking by any stretch), now the GM 305 or the TPI 5 liter got its butt handed to it by the Ford. The LT1 has almost 40 hp on the old 5.0 mustangs and much more torque. With a mild cam change and a throttle body on the TPI 5.7 Camaro, the Mustangs were not a challenge for us at Guldstrand.

[69stang]

I don't know much about the new coyote but am interested in learning more. I've never been that impressed with overall performance of sbf windsors as they take substantial modifications to make impressive power. I've had sbf s in several mustangs and, sure, you can make some power and have a decent running car but, I prefer my 351C in my 69. Its a shame ford didn't do further R&D on the cleveland mills. Given the appropriate attention, it would probably have evolved into an excellent modern powerplant. I've been researching the cleveland in preparation for rebuilding mine as its been 26 years since I built it. There's a lot of misunderstanding and ignorance (not insulting anyone) surrounding the motor but it far surpasses the windsor motors in stock form and potential.

[Ron S]

Everyone probably knows what I'm going to say. I originally bought a 4.6 for my car, I truely wanted to run a new Ford, or possibly a pushrod Ford engine in my Mustang. No matter how I added it up, the LSX stuff was WAY more economical (about half the $$). Just a set of cams on the mod motors are crazy money. In my opinion if Ford would build an engine with a little more displacement they would be alittle closer in the power to $$ race. The 5.0 is Ford's bad as$ engine, its hard for that to compete against Chevy's 7.0.

[dontlifttoshift]

406....the point was that Ford had a good thing and traded it for something mediocore. I know better than to get into brand arguments, I thought I was surrounded by Oval guys in this thread so it would be okay. If ford Had evolved their V8 instead of starting from scratch I think it would have made a better engine.

[LowFast]

I think overall Ford is starting down the right path with the new 5.0, but it is truly a shame they lost over a decade of development futsing around with the 4.6 platform.

However, the DOHC 4.6 is a nice piece if you are going the forced induction route, just look at what Koenigsegg has been able to do with the 4.6 architecture.

Naturally Aspirated cubic inches rule and this is where I whole heartedly agree the Ford offerings fall short. Now, the new block in the Raptor can go out to 7 liters and if the aftermarket were to get behind it then 600-700 NA becomes a reality, only issue with that engine is the heavy cast iron block. As much as I love Ford sometimes it is like they have all the pieces but just never really get it all sorted out. Imagine we could easily have a 7 liter, DOHC aluminum ford making 700hp and reving to 8 grand, ford is so close but so far away.:attn:

[trapin]

Some good discussion on this topic. Glad all the Ford guys chimed in.

I think the Coyote is intriguing but I'd still take the Windsor.

Something interesting to add...my co-worker Chris Uratchko races a '69 Camaro with a naturally aspirated 302 Windsor that does high 8's in the 1320. Yes, you read that right...not a 302 Chevy. He builds engines on the side and is highly sought after here in Michigan; www.ure-racing.com

Here is a clip of him on ESPN a few years ago.

0aLj8tN-FVk

[novaderrik]

anyone else ever notice that Ford last used the Windsor in trucks in the 96 model year, and GM came out with the LS1 in the Vette in 97?

it almost seems like Ford gave up on the Windsor in the early 90's, and GM perfected the Windsor when they came out with the LS engine in the late 90's. it's as if GM was pointing out to Ford how stupid they were for giving up on it right when the technology was there to make it awesome..

[Ron S]

Its funny, I'm a keep it simple stupid kind of guy, but I can't deny the potential of the dual overhead cam design. It should make so much more power then a pushrod engine, and I think if GM's performance division would have designed it, it would have. There is no replacement for displacement, the 4.6 is just too small in its naturally aspirated state, and there wasn't many of the 5.4's. All Ford needed was bigger parts.

[LowFast]

This is what we should have in the states. Boss 290 from Austrailia. 5.4 liter DOHC makes 390hp stock, 425hp with longtubes and a tune. Now if I could only find one for my falcon at a reasonable price. There is even a Boss 315 that came with 425hp stock.

http://www.norcom.net.au/~bpt/Plen115.JPG

[rustomatic]

Somebody mentioned simplicity here somewhere... When you're spending ten grand to put an engine in a 40 year-old car, simplicity has left the building. That said, I have both the 4.6 and the OLD 5.0--I'd take the old 5.0 any day, but then again, I'm a knuckle dragger.

Here's what I thought was stupid when they started offering the mod motor in Mustangs: Why would you want a V8 that performs like a four-banger? They've had 289s that could turn 7-8000 RPMs forever, while still making decent torque. The 5.0 has always done whatever you need, drag or road course...

People, overhead cams have been around longer than most, if not all of us have been alive; they have always been a choice, and frequently, they've been the non-durable choice. Find a hi-revving bike motor that lasts much longer than 30k (without pissing oil out the muffler or knocking like a tweaker), and you've got a real gem...

Didn't we originally like V8s because we could haul ass with like 1/4 of an inch of gas pedal travel? Wasn't the point that they made power easily, rather than through the addition of blowers and other bells and whistles? Wasn't the supercharger they put on Stupidbakers back in the 50s more of a novelty than a need for the power production?

Didn't they put fuel injection on Vettes, and then get rid of it until they developed the awesomely ridiculous Crossfire?

Sorry, but trends kill me. I'll return to my cave now...

[MonzaRacer]

As for me Iremember when the Mod motor came out, guys slapped in good rods and pistons, throw on blowers and turbos and ran hard. Heck I remember one guy had 30k in miles on a Mod power Mustang all stock 4.6 2v and had it supercharged since the third day he had it, in fact I believe his was prototype car. he also tuned a Ford computer to live with it. He was turning 750 hp from stone stone motor, he had a better short block already in works and was waiting on "Cobra" or 4 valve heads to come from Ford. If you want a clean playing field the old Cleveland couldnt make emissions, even as a Modified engine.
The Windsor wasnt getting any better and major refit to a 40 + yr old design wasnt in the cards.
I remember the Mod was supposed to be great,,,add a pair of cyl get V10, 2 more, V12,,,,take away 2 from the V8 and get V6.
Saw many reports and such on the designs and honestly they both deserve recognition. Both can be built. Now as for cams costing, well I have changed Mod cams, not that hard, just lot more work, as for cams, well when a cam company gets too big for its britches, it dies or gets bought out. Used to be many cam companies, Crane, Cam Dynamics, Wolverine/Blue Racer, SpeedPro, TRW performance cams, Erson, Isky,Lunati,etc.
I remember when Comp Cams became the buzz word in cams, still are, but again I hope their quality control gets better as I have seen some issues in it lately.
Still love Comp Cams, but still wish I could buy some of the old 10000 series Cam Dynamics cams, reliable, fast , good survivability in engines hard on cams.
Heck I have Chet Herbert roller I want in my 454, just need good lifters but so far few are impressing me. This comes from the fact that my old lifters broke on me. They reground the cam for free, gave me new lifters I never used.
But I digress. 4 cams should not be $1000 in all honesty cam prices HAVE gone up and quality isnt getting any better.
I like both options, Windsor for tight fit, Boss5.0 for difference.
Its just packaging. LSx never hit it off till first guy got one and did a swap.build,,,then they got popular,,,seems to me it took a few years and a fella named Duntov to push SBC Gen1 into lime light.
Can I afford anything now, heck no, Im struggling to get parts/money together to mod my cars and build an engine, a 50 yr old one at that(1961 283).
So if I was into Fords (grew up Ford family) it would be most likely a SBF, but since I grew up in average family, dont make 5 and 6 figure paychecks and I am still trying to fix a few financial issues(just getting caught up) I build what I find for cheap, like my $500 454 going in an 84 Caprice and done on budget.
My premise is this, both work, both function and the trends will follow the new engine as people with abilities and cash get them.
But you will never replace old familiars, people are still building flat heads, even developing parts for them. So.
My $0.02!

Oh and all of the kool performance stuff from the 50s and 60s, well technology and the powers that be (ie fuel economy and emissions) took mechanical FI, and dealer installed blowers away, BUT gave us Vega , Monza, Mustang II, Pinto, Maverick(come on admit it you have seen a few cool ones), even Chevettes.
We may have gotten ******* style EFI in the beginning but we even had FI Caddies in 75, but it was worthless(I converted one to later TPI computer) LUMP O CRAP.
Heck now you can go to ebay and buy a turbo kit and make near anything faster.
Run what ya brung, hope ya brung enough.