OCC just funny

[band1t]

Not sure if this topic has come and gone.
But what did everyone think of the OCC Trans am, GTO, and 1969 Trans am Bikes??/

I thought they were a insult to the cars.

[Six_Shooter]

Any links or pictures?

[Iamtheonlyreal1]

Watching that show has been sad for soooo many years, I cant believe they have to orchastrate this current drama to make the show relevant again.. The bikes have also been very sad for some time.. I have done business with people that actually make some of the parts that they try to showcase as their own on the show. These people claim they are really just *****s.

[JohnLClark]

I just saw that episode tonight. Those bikes were a joke and I feel that OCC just finds a way to stick styling cues on the bikes, instead of doing an actual design. I laughed when I saw the little shaker hood on the gas
tank of the 78ta bike.

[Trevon]

I never really like choppers at all, but did think the white 6T9 bike was the best of the three...but all gross compared to the cars. I would love to drive that 6T9 car...heard it has 1100 hp! The goat did look like the nicest of the three...I would give anything I own for a Kevin Morgan creation...

[Mkelcy]

Given that my motor vehicle (car or motorcycle) interest has always been about performance rather than bling, I find the show to be interesting only when Rick is fabricating a gas tank. The guy is a magician with sheet metal. The rest of the work mostly makes me shudder and the "design" process, ignoring as it does any semblence of performance or (so far as I can tell) safety, leaves me cold.

[band1t]

Any links or pictures?

Here is a link to pictures of the bikes
http://www.orangecountychoppers.com/chopper-gallery

[Mr. Anderson]

I never watch that show but was channel surfing last night and caught a glimpse of the hood tach on the "goat" bike. I thought it was a nice touch even though the bike as a whole was ugly.

Looking through the gallery you posted though, I think the black/gold trans am was fairly well done, especially with the wheels.

Final thought, theme bikes are horrible no matter what.

[John Wright]

I find the show to be interesting only when Rick is fabricating a gas tank. The guy is a magician with sheet metal. I'm with Mike .... the sheet metal fab is all that I find interesting...well, I take that back...Knubbs (or however you spell the painter's name) is pretty interesting when he's peeling all of the film off and doing his thing with the paint.

[Tony_SS]

I don't know what people expect, but for what they are, they look very nice. They resemble the cars, and that was the goal.

I like the characters on the show... Sr is looking old! If all that family drama is real, that's just sad. But from how things went down, it sounds like money and greed played a part. That's why Vinnie and Cody left OCC in the first place.

[LeighP]

Proof of the design is in how it rides....and they always look like they'll be a pathetic ride.
Frankly, I never liked their designs at all.....thought the show was funny at the start, lost interest quite some time ago.

[WS6]

I thought they did a good job of incorporating the different styling cues from the individual cars onto the bikes. Minus the headlights that is because those are ugly.

I must say thought that I like Jr's work. I watched the senior versus junior show while living in a hotel. Sr definitely has not come out well from this fight. He's making himself look very bad IMO. Meanwhile Jr was turning out some great looking bikes. The Geico bike and Antivenom where nice.

[Vegas69]

Bunch of liars, you all watch for the soap opera. HA HA

[Vicinity]

Bunch of liars, you all watch for the soap opera. HA HA

That's fine. I'll admit it. I used to watch the 2 hour block in the afternoons everyday after work while waiting for my class to start.

[twosaturns]

I couldn't respect them ever because they didn't build their frames or engines.

i really miss 'Biker Build-Off', that was a show with real fabricators and really showcased some incredible skill and creativity.

[srh3trinity]

I like Jr.'s work for the most part. The three bikes were ok, but the honecomb wheels looked pretty awesome on the black and gold one. The actual GTO remake car looks pretty decent. Not really a big fan of the TA Conversions though.

[Vicinity]

I couldn't respect them ever because they didn't build their frames or engines.

i really miss 'Biker Build-Off', that was a show with real fabricators and really showcased some incredible skill and creativity.

FWIW, they built a frame jig and used it quite a few times, when the guy who built it left, it was hardly used again.

I really did hate that they started farming everything out and not really doing anything in the later episodes.

[Tony_SS]

I couldn't respect them ever because they didn't build their frames or engines.

i really miss 'Biker Build-Off', that was a show with real fabricators and really showcased some incredible skill and creativity.

That doesn't matter to me. I would still respect someone here for putting together a pt ride from a swartz or morrison frame. So what. Just because you don't fabricate everything doesn't mean they didn't design and build a nice piece.

[DartorDemon]

Personally, i hope the show ends and they go belly up. They're crap show is replayed non-stop on the discovery channel.(discover how a science channel will sell itself out like a cheap whore)

They build tasteless crap with crap performance and crap rideability.

[Damn True]

Apropos of nothing, I read in Jesse James' twitter stream that there is a scheduled "biker build-off" between someone from OCC (don't recall Jr or Sr) and Jesse James.

[wmhjr]

OCC is a total joke. I used to watch it for comedic value, but never EVER saw anything other than some gas tank fabrication that I had any respect for. The bikes are junk. I've seen a few of them up close, and not only would I never buy one, I'd never throw my leg over one. They are clueless about engineering and design, know nothing about performance, are sloppy in their fabrication - the list goes on. Anyone who has ever built a "harley" V-Twin knows that for one thing, lock-tite is essential. I've never seen those guys use any of it, nor have I ever seen them use anti-seize for any stainless stuff. They're better plumbers than fabricators. Their exhaust is joke - nothing but tubing with no hope of ever delivering any performance. The few bikes I've seen that OCC built were cheaply done, did not hold up, and were of no value whatsoever unless they were leaning on their kickstand.

[Tony_SS]

Well, going out on a limb here, I don't think showing them using loctite makes for good TV. That's probably why you don't see them doing it, perhaps? ;)

I wish Discovery would bring back Monster Garage though. Whats not to like about a Fox body that delivers a 72" cut at 60mph?

[Vicinity]

Well, going out on a limb here, I don't think showing them using loctite makes for good TV. That's probably why you don't see them doing it, perhaps? ;)

I wish Discovery would bring back Monster Garage though. Whats not to like about a Fox body that delivers a 72" cut at 60mph?

I loved that show! Why did it get canceled? It was really cool, and they showed a lot of fab work. It was on TV when I was like 12 and I was still interested in all the metal work they did. I remember the gas tank that exploded because the guy forgot to test it for leaks.

[Tony_SS]

I have no idea why it got canceled... I would love to see it brought back. I always enjoyed the characters, fab work and oddball projects for fun.

[WS6]

probably because Jesse James comes across as a huge douche bag? I don't know him personally and I know people that have met him have said that's not how he is at all but this is TV and perception is reality unfortunately. Cheating on Sandra Bullock didn't help either but that was well after the fact.

Biker Build Off was fantastic though. I really liked that show over OCC because it was about the bikes and not drama. That doesn't sale commercials and tshirts out the wahzoo like OCC did to the dumb masses though. So oh well.

[wmhjr]

Well, going out on a limb here, I don't think showing them using loctite makes for good TV. That's probably why you don't see them doing it, perhaps? ;)


You just lost that limb :) Problem is that the bikes literally fall apart. I mean, parts friggin fall off the bikes. But even if that were there only problem then OK, maybe. But it's not. They're clueless amateurs that only got where they did by luck, and frankly have spent far more time attempting to defend their different fraud and tax evasion charges than they ever have in learning how to fabricate.

[Tony_SS]

omg now they are tax cheats too... burn them at the stake! They media reports something and the witchhunt begins...

Its a TV show and they are building props. Anyone who orders an OCC bike probably isn't going to ride it, but display as a prop of their own. If someone gets all foamy at the mouth about their craft, they are missing the entire point of their operation.

[Tony_SS]

probably because Jesse James comes across as a huge douche bag? I don't know him personally and I know people that have met him have said that's not how he is at all but this is TV and perception is reality unfortunately. Cheating on Sandra Bullock didn't help either but that was well after the fact.

Biker Build Off was fantastic though. I really liked that show over OCC because it was about the bikes and not drama. That doesn't sale commercials and tshirts out the wahzoo like OCC did to the dumb masses though. So oh well.

Hey WCC sold their wares at WalMart..so one isn't much better than the other. I really lost respect for JJ after what he did.. he really proved himself to be an azz as a person.

[twosaturns]

Tony, just when I think I have figured out where you're coming from, you surprise me. you defend OCC to the end, but slam JJ and WCC.
I take them for what they are; they are both salesmen of an image.

[Tony_SS]

I just think people sort of loose perspective. OCC is a production company selling marketing props. It's not about the loctite. JJ is a talented fabricator. Sure one might be better than the other at the actual craft, but the end goals between the 2 aren't the same.

[wmhjr]

omg now they are tax cheats too... burn them at the stake! They media reports something and the witchhunt begins...

Its a TV show and they are building props. Anyone who orders an OCC bike probably isn't going to ride it, but display as a prop of their own. If someone gets all foamy at the mouth about their craft, they are missing the entire point of their operation.

Ummm, I'm thinking you really don't know much about OCC. There is way more than tax fraud going on there according to most reports - which btw aren't just recent. And you do know they have "production" bikes, (or used to), right? Defend them all you want. It's your right. However, I see nothing of value in their craftsmanship in any way, shape or form. I see no quality whatsoever. No real thoughtful design. No engineering whatsoever. They are the exact opposite of what most on this site would appreciate. Neither form nor function at OCC. You're right - I'm missing the whole point of their operation. Care to remind me of what it is?

JJ is a talented fabricator. I may not like him and really have no interest in his builds, but certainly acknowledge there is some skill there.

[novaderrik]

Apropos of nothing, I read in Jesse James' twitter stream that there is a scheduled "biker build-off" between someone from OCC (don't recall Jr or Sr) and Jesse James.

i would think it would be Paul Jr- Paul Sr is an ironworker that built bikes on the side as a hobby until Jr was old enough to start doing it.
Jesse James all by himself could probably outbuild all of the fabricators at OCC and Paul Jr Designs combined and he'd start out with a pile of tubing and sheetmetal instead of a prefabricated frames and tanks.. he also has an eye for functionality and likes to make things usable and safe.

regarding the quality of the OCC bikes- Jr is an artist more than an engineer. that's what Vinny is for.. Paul Jr doesn't care if the bikes ride or handle well or if they are fast- he's all about the image. and that image is why all those companies line up to pay $100k or more to have them build a bike for them on tv- they are buying an hour of cable tv advertising time.. then OCC keeps the bikes after they are built.. i wonder how the syndication deal works out for the companies- if they only have to pay for the initial broadcast of the episode, then the reruns are hours and hours of free ad time..

[Tony_SS]

Ummm, I'm thinking you really don't know much about OCC. There is way more than tax fraud going on there according to most reports - which btw aren't just recent. And you do know they have "production" bikes, (or used to), right? Defend them all you want. It's your right. However, I see nothing of value in their craftsmanship in any way, shape or form. I see no quality whatsoever. No real thoughtful design. No engineering whatsoever. They are the exact opposite of what most on this site would appreciate. Neither form nor function at OCC. You're right - I'm missing the whole point of their operation. Care to remind me of what it is?


M o n e y. (by means of marketing their brand)

btw. I'm not defending OCC. Just pointing out that 'value' and 'craftsmanship' are irrelevant to their franchise. So its pointless to critique them on it. That's not their product. Make sense?

[wmhjr]

Tony, I understand - but their product at its base is still building bikes. Yes, their intended purpose may be for marketing most of the time (though they do have a production line which is exactly that - production). However, they started before TV and they were building bikes. Not marketing. The "claim" to be bike builders - not just TV personalities. So, I feel very comfortable criticizing their physical product. And as I've mentioned, there's far more than tax fraud alleged at OCC and there has been a very consistent pattern of at the very least unethical and usually illegal business practices there for years.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. The important thing here is that this site seems to be focused on well designed products and projects that have function as well as form in mind. OCC barely has form, and doesn't execute that every well. Their bikes simply don't function worth a bag of rocks.

[John Wright]

Didn't they start out as a misc. steel fabricator...(stairs, hand rails, window/door frames, fences...etc)? Seems that I remember them running over into the fab shop to use some of the equipment or to steal a piece off a handrail or fence to use on one of the bikes.

[wmhjr]

Yep, they did. And since then they've tried to use that business to hide from debt to suppliers......

[Tony_SS]

Tony, I understand - but their product at its base is still building bikes. Yes, their intended purpose may be for marketing most of the time (though they do have a production line which is exactly that - production). However, they started before TV and they were building bikes. Not marketing. The "claim" to be bike builders - not just TV personalities. So, I feel very comfortable criticizing their physical product. And as I've mentioned, there's far more than tax fraud alleged at OCC and there has been a very consistent pattern of at the very least unethical and usually illegal business practices there for years.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. The important thing here is that this site seems to be focused on well designed products and projects that have function as well as form in mind. OCC barely has form, and doesn't execute that every well. Their bikes simply don't function worth a bag of rocks.

Their product used to be building bikes. Now they build market devices for themselves, and other brands. Under that business model they have been successful with the continuation of their franchise.

Now they should build a handrailing bike for Sr.'s old company. Lol. I'm sure it could be used as a creative finance instrument to benefit it somehow.

[Mathius]

Tony, I understand - but their product at its base is still building bikes. Yes, their intended purpose may be for marketing most of the time (though they do have a production line which is exactly that - production). However, they started before TV and they were building bikes. Not marketing. The "claim" to be bike builders - not just TV personalities. So, I feel very comfortable criticizing their physical product. And as I've mentioned, there's far more than tax fraud alleged at OCC and there has been a very consistent pattern of at the very least unethical and usually illegal business practices there for years.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. The important thing here is that this site seems to be focused on well designed products and projects that have function as well as form in mind. OCC barely has form, and doesn't execute that every well. Their bikes simply don't function worth a bag of rocks.

Are you serious? They were doing theme bikes and one offs long before they ever came out with a production bike, and have you ever seen paul jr or sr work on a production bike? All that stuff is contracted to facilities that have mass production capabilities.

OCC's whole niche is entertainment, metal art, and flashy one-off accessories. Marketing.

The yuppies who can afford to pay $150k and up for a bike like that probably ride them about 3x a year if at all. Most of the ones on the show are museum pieces that sit in a lobby somewhere at a company for someone to look at.

You're taking them WAY too seriously. It's like people who say NFL players are overpaid. They're not paid to play football, they're paid to entertain, and as long as the consumer is dumb enough to pay $150 a seat to watch them play, the players are getting their fair cuts of the market.

Mathius

[sniper]

It's like people who say NFL players are overpaid. They're not paid to play football, they're paid to entertain, and as long as the consumer is dumb enough to pay $150 a seat to watch them play, the players are getting their fair cuts of the market.
Mathius

To be fair, seat ticket price is a teeny tiny portion of a players salary. Most of the NFL salaries comes from TV deals and the advertising that is sold within those deals. So the fans don't have a "HUGE" part in a players salary. Just like OCC, the money they get of the actual bike is tiny. It's all the other marketing that brings in the dough.

[wmhjr]

Are you serious? They were doing theme bikes and one offs long before they ever came out with a production bike, and have you ever seen paul jr or sr work on a production bike? All that stuff is contracted to facilities that have mass production capabilities.

OCC's whole niche is entertainment, metal art, and flashy one-off accessories. Marketing.

The yuppies who can afford to pay $150k and up for a bike like that probably ride them about 3x a year if at all. Most of the ones on the show are museum pieces that sit in a lobby somewhere at a company for someone to look at.

You're taking them WAY too seriously. It's like people who say NFL players are overpaid. They're not paid to play football, they're paid to entertain, and as long as the consumer is dumb enough to pay $150 a seat to watch them play, the players are getting their fair cuts of the market.

Mathius

Yes, I'm serious. They were building production bikes long before they were on TV. I really don't care who buys their stuff - that's not the point. I don't take them seriously. That is the point. NFL players ARE paid to play football. That is their product. Is there product in the sports entertainment market? Yes. But they are paid to play football. The average NFL player does not get the big endorsements. Many get League minimum salaries, and that's what they live on.

I think you guys are missing the point. Frankly, NASCAR is entertainment. F1 is entertainment. ANY motorsports is entertainment. They all build a franchise and a brand. Some of them actually have skill, quality and intrinsic value. OCC has none of the above. THAT is what differentiates them.

[Tony_SS]

William, you're missing the point in that OCC makes it bread and butter off of the TLC television show contract and marketing their brand. Compare from where the revenue comes from that to their 'bikes' they sell and you'll see what business they're in. Marketing and Entertainment. Even the majority of their bikes sales are props for marketing and entertainment.

Criticizing OCC fabrication quality is like complaining that WWF wrestling is fake.

[Mathius]

To be fair, seat ticket price is a teeny tiny portion of a players salary. Most of the NFL salaries comes from TV deals and the advertising that is sold within those deals. So the fans don't have a "HUGE" part in a players salary. Just like OCC, the money they get of the actual bike is tiny. It's all the other marketing that brings in the dough.

You're splitting hairs. That stuff still exists because the fans buy into it.


Yes, I'm serious. They were building production bikes long before they were on TV.

You have any facts to support that? Because they televised their prototype build for their first production bike and the show had already been going on for several seasons.


I really don't care who buys their stuff - that's not the point. I don't take them seriously. That is the point.
Which is why you obviously feel justified in criticizing their show and their product, but one has nothing to do with the other. Frankly I don't care if you take them seriously, it just makes me think you're bias to begin with and I can't rely on your opinion of their product's quality.


NFL players ARE paid to play football. That is their product. Is there product in the sports entertainment market? Yes. But they are paid to play football. The average NFL player does not get the big endorsements. Many get League minimum salaries, and that's what they live on.

No, they're not paid to just play football, they're paid to do interviews, to appear at team sponsored events, etc. It's not a football industry, it's an entertainment industry. They don't revise the rules every couple of years because the game is broken, they do it to make it more ENTERTAINING. No matter how you want to spin it, if they were paid to play football there wouldn't be players fined for comments about refs, or for missing interviews. They're paid for a lot more than that.


I think you guys are missing the point. Frankly, NASCAR is entertainment. F1 is entertainment. ANY motorsports is entertainment. They all build a franchise and a brand.

What franchise and brand? I hope to hell you're not talking about sponsors, because that's just.... I don't know what to say to that. Lots of industries have sponsors, that doesn't make them entertainment.

I sure as hell hope you're not trying to imply that car competitions or racing didn't exist until nascar.


Some of them actually have skill, quality and intrinsic value. OCC has none of the above. THAT is what differentiates them.

That's your opinion. If nascar is not a sport (I agree with you there at least) and it is simply an entertainment industry (I believe it is), it certainly doesn't have any skill, quality, or intrinsic value, IMO. I'd much rather you snapped my ankle in half than make me watch a bunch of rednecks cheer a bunch of guys driving virtually the same car that does a bunch of laps around an oval.

Mathius

[Mathius]

Criticizing OCC fabrication quality is like complaining that WWF wrestling is fake.

That's a pretty good analogy, but I'd have a damn hard time criticizing their quality anyways, given what I know about the auto industry and what I've seen on other bike building shows and bike builders in the real world. They don't call it a chopper for nothing.

Chevy doesn't want to make wheel bearings you can replace without replacing the whole hub or make water pump gaskets last more than 75k, but we're going to criticize OCC's "fab quality" on a show where the structural stuff is all outsourced to begin with?

Mathius

[John Wright]

Their styling just doesn't sit well with me. Never really liked the look of any of their bikes....the front forks are way too long and the bikes look awkward at best to ride. I'm more of a sport bike kind of guy, I like to "turn", "stop quick" and "go fast" all with out having to stop and get on a different bike for each task...LOL

[wmhjr]

You're splitting hairs. That stuff still exists because the fans buy into it.



You have any facts to support that? Because they televised their prototype build for their first production bike and the show had already been going on for several seasons.


Which is why you obviously feel justified in criticizing their show and their product, but one has nothing to do with the other. Frankly I don't care if you take them seriously, it just makes me think you're bias to begin with and I can't rely on your opinion of their product's quality.



No, they're not paid to just play football, they're paid to do interviews, to appear at team sponsored events, etc. It's not a football industry, it's an entertainment industry. They don't revise the rules every couple of years because the game is broken, they do it to make it more ENTERTAINING. No matter how you want to spin it, if they were paid to play football there wouldn't be players fined for comments about refs, or for missing interviews. They're paid for a lot more than that.



What franchise and brand? I hope to hell you're not talking about sponsors, because that's just.... I don't know what to say to that. Lots of industries have sponsors, that doesn't make them entertainment.

I sure as hell hope you're not trying to imply that car competitions or racing didn't exist until nascar.



That's your opinion. If nascar is not a sport (I agree with you there at least) and it is simply an entertainment industry (I believe it is), it certainly doesn't have any skill, quality, or intrinsic value, IMO. I'd much rather you snapped my ankle in half than make me watch a bunch of rednecks cheer a bunch of guys driving virtually the same car that does a bunch of laps around an oval.

Mathius

Dude, whatever. Do what you want. You're saying NFL players are "entertainers" and not paid to play football but get ticked off when motorsports are brought into the discussion. OCC is great. I bow to the fabrication genius of Paul Sr and his door smashing prowess. Mikey is the epitome of business acumen. Paul Jr builds highly engineered masterpieces of technical complexity. It's all good.

BTW, I never said NASCAR was not a sport. Please read more carefully. I said it was sports entertainment, EXACTLY the same as F1, Pro-Touring, Mud Crawling, Tractor Pulling, Mud Wrestling, and whatever else you want to mention. I can make the exact same arguments about them and they are equally accurate. I could give a rats a$$ if you think I'm biased. I am. SO ARE YOU. Obviously. It's an opinion, sherlock.

[Vicinity]

Dude, whatever. Do what you want. You're saying NFL players are "entertainers" and not paid to play football but get ticked off when motorsports are brought into the discussion. OCC is great. I bow to the fabrication genius of Paul Sr and his door smashing prowess. Mikey is the epitome of business acumen. Paul Jr builds highly engineered masterpieces of technical complexity. It's all good.

BTW, I never said NASCAR was not a sport. Please read more carefully. I said it was sports entertainment, EXACTLY the same as F1, Pro-Touring, Mud Crawling, Tractor Pulling, Mud Wrestling, and whatever else you want to mention. I can make the exact same arguments about them and they are equally accurate. I could give a rats a$$ if you think I'm biased. I am. SO ARE YOU. Obviously. It's an opinion, sherlock.

I like the show, but I wouldn't call JR a genius. He's a great desiger, however.

[sniper]

They were building production bikes long before they were on TV.

That's not true, is it? I thought they didn't start building "productions" bikes until a few years in.

[Vicinity]

That's not true, is it? I thought they didn't start building "productions" bikes until a few years in.

Correct. They started out building "customs" and "one-offs". Their first "production" bike was the "web bike".

[wmhjr]

What I'm calling "production bikes" back before TV are the bikes built NOT for marketing purposes. Just like plenty of other shops around here that will (hopefully) never get within sniffing distance of any media. Sr started building bikes in the 90s. The company was formed and Jr joined in in 99. It wasn't until '02 that TV and media showed up accidentally. Zero of the bikes built before TV were "brand" or "marketing" bikes. They were no different than when I built my bike, except they were doing it for somebody else. So, my definition of "production" means anything built TO BE A BIKE AND NOT A CORPORATE MARKETING TOOL. They did that first.

[Mathius]

Dude, whatever. Do what you want. You're saying NFL players are "entertainers" and not paid to play football but get ticked off when motorsports are brought into the discussion.

Actually, you're the one who sounds ticked off. I still don't see what motorsports has to do with squat. I haven't seen you make one valid point on the issue. Throwing around random words like franchise and brand don't make valid points without an explanation.


What I'm calling "production bikes" back before TV are the bikes built NOT for marketing purposes. Just like plenty of other shops around here that will (hopefully) never get within sniffing distance of any media. Sr started building bikes in the 90s. The company was formed and Jr joined in in 99. It wasn't until '02 that TV and media showed up accidentally. Zero of the bikes built before TV were "brand" or "marketing" bikes. They were no different than when I built my bike, except they were doing it for somebody else. So, my definition of "production" means anything built TO BE A BIKE AND NOT A CORPORATE MARKETING TOOL. They did that first.

Figures. You're one of the ones acting like I'm a nutjob in the other thread that got locked and now you're off and running with your own definition of a word.

Most of us read production as in short for "mass production" (because that's what it means). You don't produce a bike in your driveway because it isn't for mass consumption, it's a one-off. You either built it or fabricated it, depending on what you started with. Now if you took that bike and developed a way to reproduce it (see where that word produce is in reproduce? Same as production? My english is an interesting language) on a large scale, then you'd be working on a production scale.

But it's ok. As long as you feel you're right in your own mind that's what counts.

Have a good day, sir.

Mathius

[zbugger]

I hear a whaaaambulance. This one is done.

[Damn True]

Whole lot of angst & vitriol being thrown around regarding a television show. Get a hobby.