PHR: ATS spindle ad

[nkopper]

For those of you who haven't seen the badass ATS upright for 1st gen Camaros, see their ad on page 100 of the August PHR.

Nathan

[mdprovee]

I'm still waiting for my magazince to get here. I'll have to yell at the the postman to hurry up.

Mike

[BA.]

Got my PHR a few days ago. Ad looks great!!

I've lost the thread announcing the spindle. :( gotta look again.

Are they taking orders yet? I didn't see anything on their website. <<insert little yellow guy scratching his head>>

EDIT: ok, found the thread, that wasn't too hard. :) Looks like it just kinda died..... I need a set!

[parsonsj]

Congrats to the ATS folks. I hope you sell a bunch of 'em!

jp

[TitoJones]

Well, I guess the cat is out of the bag on what they look like. I'll have Shane post up the 3d image of the final spindle, with all the cool guy stuff on it.
Until then- Check the attachment for our advertisment in PHR/Super Chevy
Link to the AFX spindle thread:
https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6650&highlight=AFX+spindle

Tyler

[David Pozzi]

Wow!
Looks great!

[wickedmotorhead]

Here is the final design for the Tall version after we made the engineering changes for draft angles and radii. I will post the stock height version next. We are also putting together a technical write up. We are still finalizing the last details for the end pricing but we will address that as well very soon. I can tell you it will be very competitive to the other spindles coming to market. Our initial forging vendor was unable to obtain die steel to meet the original lead time we had hoped for, so unfortunately we had to switch vendors in order to recoupe some time. We are currently in production and should see final products in 6-8 weeks and I can assure you it will be worth the wait.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://www.imageshack.us)

[Rick Dorion]

Great ad! I'm not sure I can do another 1" drop and have enough road clearance unless I add a spacer or go to landrum adusters, etc. Currentl have the GW front springs. Hmm. In the past there's been much discussion about the Pro-motorsports spindle extenders being too tall - 2". Your one version is 1.4. If someone has the Gul Mod we're back in that range or will that combo be taboo? Perhaps this can be addressed in your FAQ.

[MoeBawlz]

I like the solid model images, very cool... best of luck to you on sales. im sure you guys will make a killing in the market.

[Steve68]

Saw it a couple hours ago, You think Tyler and the boys would have given us first crack at buying some,

So who's going to buy some first and give us some hard experience with them, I had to put my disc spindles back on my car I need to roll it around,

Maybe before I by the adapters, I'll know the price of them???

[wickedmotorhead]

Here's a couple pics of the stock height spindle. We will be updating the website in the next couple days with the correct tech information to further answer any of your questions.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://www.imageshack.us)

[HWYSTR]

I talked to Tyler reagrding the possibility of doing a spindle for the 2nd gen f-bodies, and he basically said if there was enough of an interest, he would do it. He's going to look at a factory spindle, see if he can make the existing one work with mods, without having to go back to the drawing board. To do one from the ground up would require about 250-400 pairs to sell to warrant production. So, I ask, who would be interested in the same spidle for a 2nd gen f-body?

[yody]

what would it do for the second gen, except for easier mounting of brakes?

[zbugger]

Easier mounting of brakes, and the replaceable hub would make it worth it to me. Why? I have no idea. But it does make things interesting.

[ethan67]

I did the Guldstrand Mod on my car while in college, and looking back at it a few years later I realize I may have has a few too many the night before surgery :)

Anyway, I plan on re-mounting the UCA 'ear' either by using the DSE coil-over mounting points or cutting off the ears from a donor & welding.

My question is whether you have modified UCA mounting locations for your taller spindle, or are you recommending the standard height spindle with G-mod/DSE mod.

Ethan
67/327 Camaro
San Francisco

[F1 Speed]

Actually I think the tall version of the ATS spindle would bolt right up to a 2nd. gen. if you were to use Howe custom ball joints.

[TitoJones]

Rick-
The actual drop of both spindles is less than 1". It is actually 7/8" of a drop, but I'm splitting hairs here.
For a Guldstand modded car, we recommend the stock style AFX spindle. Not saying that the G-mod and tall AFX spindle can't work together, but I'd keep that kind of geometry on the race track only cars.
Steve- They haven't hit the market, so essentially, the PT board members do have first crack at them. We just had to get our ad into the mags by a certain deadline.
Rough pricing is $550 per set with out bearing packs, and $850 per set with new bearing packs installed.
HWYSTR/Yody/zbugger-
They may well bolt up to a 2nd gen, but I don't think there are any geometry benefits. The spindle forging has extra material for making subtle changes to things like king pin inclination, press in sleeves to change ball joint tapers, and added material to change the over all height of the upright. The items we would need to address are steering arms, wheel offset, and ball joint tapers. I'll offer up a Beta test program for the 2nd gen guys to help us nail down if these will work in your applications.
ethan67- Yes, stock AFX spindle is your best bet with the mods you have done.
F1 Speed- It may well bolt right up with the correct press in ball joint inserts we make, we'll check on the fitment when we get some in hand.
For those of you on the fence-
Example on a 69 Camaro:
The taller height AFX spindle for a 1st gen with a bone stock suspension, equals, and in certain cases exceeds a car with a G-mod, and tubular control arms. Just think- no need for $900 worth of tubular arms, to get the same performance as the AFX spindle.
Tyler

[USAZR1]

Tyler,will the A-body guys running C4 brakes still need to switch to C5 stuff?

[Steve1968LS2]

Makes me want to put a stock subframe on my car ;)

Very nice guys!

Hmmm... stock subframe...

[dipren443]

I talked to Tyler reagrding the possibility of doing a spindle for the 2nd gen f-bodies, and he basically said if there was enough of an interest, he would do it. He's going to look at a factory spindle, see if he can make the existing one work with mods, without having to go back to the drawing board. To do one from the ground up would require about 250-400 pairs to sell to warrant production. So, I ask, who would be interested in the same spidle for a 2nd gen f-body?

I myself would love to have a set of these built for my 1973 Z/28. I just hope there is enough interest to warrant making these.

[yody]

man $900 didn't realize they were so expensive, and to play devils advocat, since when did upper control arms cost $900? more like $450.

[TitoJones]

Taken from DSE's website:
Front tubular arms- $650
Lower tubular arms- $575
Total: $1225

From Global West:
Uppers- $499.00
Lowers- $649.00
Total- $1148.00

From Speed tech:
uppers- $489.00
Lowers- $599.00
Total- $1088.00

I was being generous on the $900 mark.
Tubular arms are no longer needed on 1st gen F body cars when the AFX spindle is used.

Tyler

[yody]

Okay, you spindle is very nice, and not to downplay it at all, just playing the other side, but how do you add on the lower control arms? what about your spindle changes the need/not need for lower control arms?

[wickedmotorhead]

HAHA Jody :poke:

You are correct for the most part lower control arms do nothing for geometry (with the exception of DSE's with the added caster). Typically control arms are bought together as a set and Tyler was making a mere common comparison. Obviously geometry is not the only comparison here. You are getting a lot more benefits from the spindle other than that (i.e. sealed LARGE bearing pack, lightweight, bolt on C5 brakes, etc.).

The AFX Spindle is just another way of getting the similar results with a few added benefits. We are not discrediting the control arms just pointing out how our spindle corrects the geometry as well. We have measured the camber/caster curves and pivot points for Stock, Gulstrand, DSE, GW, and Speetech arms and we know how our geometry stacks up. More trick components coming soon!

Shane

[yody]

so basically its like this;
your spindle =$850
OR
tubular upper control arms/gmod$500 plus some work
stock spindle with drum brake hub possibly free, or hubs=$50
speedtech or other co. caliper adapter bracket, more work=$100
=$650 but requires a bunch of work.
but with yours, you get the light weight/stronger, and its easier, and you get the nice bolt on hub.
hmmmmm, i like the spindle more and more, however can you use tubulars with the spindle or do you get too much castor?

[wickedmotorhead]

Sorry I meant to type Cody above.

No caster will not be a problem, you can use others tubulars with our spindle, but it is not necessary. The caster is controlled by the control arms or shim stack (unless you get into mechanical trail). We will be taking care of the caster with a cross shaft for the stock control arm for those that don't want the huge shim stack as opposed to buying a complete control arm just to get the added caster. Plus most people will like the ability to get the GW Delalum bushings for the stock upppers which will work with our offset cross shaft. I have all the plots on how certain control arms with or without our spindle will affect the geometry so if you want to run them anyways or already have them I can let you know which setup will work the best. Also that pricing is not set in stone just a ballpark for those that wanted an idea. It will most likely come down from there.

Shane

[next69]

Quick question....

It apears that the AFX spindle is a great looking cost effective solution that will adress some performance issues that we fight with our early Camaros, my question is Tyler reccomends original control arms with the tall spindles, or the short spindle with the G-mod. Of course the lower control tubular arms only improve caster, would this added caster be beneficial or not worth the cost? Also, would there be any benefit of running a AFX spindle with tubular upper arms? I am just curious because I am getting ready to start building my front suspension and would like to know what is the best performance option on the street, tall spindle and new bushings, new upper and lower arms with bushings, or some combination of both?

[Marty G Cars]

Ok, this sounds like a great option for my new 68 RS/SS. I had planned on doing the GW Delalum bushings for the stock upper and lower control arms. So if I read you right, all I need to do is add your spindles and get some QA1 coilovers and I'm set. When can I order?

[Rick Dorion]

I like the idea of the new shafts to eliminate/minimize the shim stack. I currently have stock UCA's with GW bushings and the offset shaft. However, I have about 1" of shims.

Can you tease us with future offerings and timeframes?

[69boo307]

wow, sweet! I'm currently running modified 2nd gen f-body spindles with 'homemade' hubs on my chevelle with the C5 brake setup. This looks like it would be a much nicer solution to achieve the same result, with better bumpsteer properties.

Now if someone would give me some money...

[rohrt]

HAHA Jody :poke:

We have measured the camber/caster curves and pivot points for Stock, Gulstrand, DSE, GW, and Speetech arms and we know how our geometry stacks up.

Shane

This is data I would like to see!

[chicane67]

This is data I would like to see!


Of course you would...... so does everyone else. My suggestion would be that everyone go out and purchase the required tools and find the answers for yourselves. It would be a great learning experience for all who do........

There has to be a point in which we draw-the-line and take note that some information is proprietary, not only to ourselves, but to the other manufacturers as well. Although I have been given explicit permission from all involved manufacturers (except for one of them eh! and Ill let you guess who that was) there was some spoken hesitance in the idea of actually publishing the numbers from other manufacturers...... other than our own numbers from our own products.

Very soon, there will be A-B comparisons of the products involved from an instrumented chassis and at that point, I believe we will be in a better position to provide emperical data and show what can be accomplished with each set up.

Our squirrely counterpart, Shane, will be providing some graphical representations of the geometries on the table for discussion. We surely dont do the 'smoke and mirrors' thing and want to provide as much information to the consumer as we can...... but, we will do so with the best interests and mutual respect for ourselves and for the other manufacturers that this involves.

That's if you all can wait....... for the proof is in the pudding....... as long as it wasnt from SEMA 2004 :barf:

[baz67]

As the one who had done most of the data collecting, around 80 hrs, I will back up what chicane has said.

I promise there will not be any talk of donkeys or feelings, just tech.



That's if you all can wait....... for the proof is in the pudding....... as long as it wasnt from SEMA 2004 :barf:

Wait THAT was pudding!!

[rohrt]

I wish I did have the time and money to buy all the suspension systems out their and test them out, sounds like fun to me, but I don't. I do respect the fact that you guys have done your homework in the testing department. I am curious what is the fear is regaurding the sharing of your knowlege. From a consumer stand point (me) it looks like someone has somthing to hide when hard #s are not shared, but I can also see from a sellers stand point you put in all the hard work to get the data you have and don't want it pirated. I would also imagine there would be some liability in publishing #s of another manufactures equipement. Then there is the fact, at least for my self, would I know how to read the data that I'm looking at. Ride hight and spring tension would also play a roll in the function i'm sure. Its my understanding that the only diffrence in the arms is caster and If thats the case why would that be a threat? It is also my understanding that the most needed improvement in the 1st gen f-body is neg camber and that there is only a few options that I know of to get it. The G-mod, spindle spacers, your spindles and few expensive system out their like GWs.
Like any consumer I like to weigh out all the varibles looking at the bang for the buck ratio and make a desicion. Some people just want function others want a cool look.
What do you think would happen if you did share the info? Would everyone flock to one system? Would it take someones arms/system out of the running?

I do want say I pulled out my PHR mag last night to look at the add. Those spindles are awsome. Are the hubs exactly the same as the C6 corvette? Just want to know if they could be found used on ebay or some other parts swap site.

[nancejd]

I think what this hobby needs is a "Consumer Reports" type of magazine. Head to head testing, no advertising, just like the regular magazine. Just think, if for say, $20 a year, you could get real world info on a variety of parts before you plunked down your hard earned cash, wouldn't that be worth something to you?

[chicane67]

What do you think would happen if you did share the info? Would everyone flock to one system? Would it take someones arms/system out of the running? Are the hubs exactly the same as the C6 corvette? Just want to know if they could be found used on ebay or some other parts swap site.

We can share what we have when we can.... as for the others, we have chosen not to share that information for many reasons. One, is a question of repeatability. Two, is a cause for liability and three is just strait up respect for the ones who did the work. But no matter what, I will still use Global West and DSE products to suit my clients needs and requirements.

Would everyone flock to one system ?? I doubt that. I myself have the opinion that each manufacturer and their related components can be best used for specific builds. For example, a while back there was discussion of spring rate to camber gain (resistance in measured travel) where I feel one control arm would be better suited for a peticular spring rate range. Post that is the culmination of all of the information we have been collecting for about a year now..... and that is how we came to the basic idea of our spindle..... but with options no other company can provide. I can sum it up with one statement:

You can use the ATS spindle with ANY COMPANIES control arms.... (but you dont need to use any of them either.)

That is real product flexability for those whom have already modified their chassis to those whom have not. Not to mention, covering three chassis overall.

You will however have some set ups that are better for street driving and then the sky is the limit on the racing end. Not to mention that there are other ATS products that are on the horizon that can and will utilized the wheel speed sensors...... things like 4 wheel independant ABS and traction control for starters. There are going to be more brake packages available for this spindle that I care to even think about too.

Super strong, light, modular, versitile and designed to WORK. Plain and simple.

As for the bearings, yes they are REAL Delphi Corvette wheel bearings..... that are slightly modified. You will have to enquire about that with Tyler on a one-on-basis. That is information he can provide. But I doubt you will find any quality from an E-bay purchase considering wheel bearings. This is one component you CAN NOT skimp on.... there is too much liability envolved and it has more to do with your saftey than anythng else.

James- I am right there with you on what you state..... and I am doing just that. That is exactly why I am instrumenting my 67 with enough data acquisition (40 plus channels) just to go out and run different set-ups and have emperical data to support any findings. I dont do advertising, I dont really do anything with sales..... I am just here for the hard core tech and providing myself, you and everyone else with enough information to make sound choices and decisions so that you can build your car the way YOU want. I just want to be able to stand behind any product that I use and have the information and tech to back it up.

So just make your checks out to chicane67.... :screwy:

[130fe]

I was just in Vegas last week and stopped by the ATS shop. Tyler and Shane were great to meet. I saw one of the prototype spindles and I really liked it. I am in the middle of gathering parts for my new stock subframe for my 68. Tyler, the Spearmint Rhino was :headbang: VERY nice!! Will be call you guys shortly about getting a set of the new spindles.

[Rick Dorion]

Thanks, Tom, Tyler, Brian, Shane, et al.

I like the ATS spindle for providing a platform for future evolvement. The idea of ABS in the future is great as I don't get enough thresh-hold braking practice to fully exploit my hydroboost in case of a future potential 'situation'!

[SatisTraction]

how does the weight of the new spinde and hub compare to a factory spindle and hub? I know the add says 2.9 pounds for the spindle but i am talking complete unit compared to complete unit.
Thanks
Chris


BTW, nice looking piece!!!!

[67Sally]

........Very soon, there will be A-B comparisons of the products involved from an instrumented chassis and at that point.........

and

........That is exactly why I am instrumenting my 67 with enough data acquisition (40 plus channels) just to go out and run different set-ups and have emperical data to support any findings.........

hummm. You must have been at your day job when I was last at ATS. I cudda swore that I saw said 67 masquerading as a storage cabinet :poke:
W.

[chicane67]

H*ll, my part is simple, the instrumentation will take about a day or so..... its a 'piece-o-pie'......

My problem is, waiting for the Boss to get off his laurels and hand us the finalized products of the ATS LSx install kit (he keeps changing them to make them better, dang it)(and dealing with the fordging company)(and whippin up an ATS T-56 GP)(and trying to figure out weather an IPod or a PSP will pass time better on his trip, all while spending two plus hours at Goodguys meandering around and not spending any money cuz he cant make up his mind)...... so I can get the chassis out for the header fab and finish its new exhuast. Etc, etc...

Trust me, its my chassis..... and I sure the h*ll am not dragging my feet...... I miss driving sidewayz.......

[CarlC]

So just make your checks out to chicane67.... :screwy:

How about a Crown Royal and a Macanudo Robust at that red velvet covered couch place on Sahara Ave? I need to go back to that place with the right mindset..... :smoke:

Will the spindle clear a 17x9.5x5.5 VWW V45? Things start to get a bit tight in there with a stock spindle + spindle extenders.

Also, for those of us that have done the G-Mod, perhaps offering a weld-in patch plate to get the stock mounting points back in place would be a sellable item. Cheap too, given modern cutting methods.

Messing around with a used bearing? Nope, not worth it. I do not think that there is another manufacturer making that bearing, not a big enough marketplace.

[67Sally]

I miss driving sidewayz.......

I'll drink to that.
W.

[SatisTraction]

how does the weight of the new spinde and hub compare to a factory spindle and hub? I know the add says 2.9 pounds for the spindle but i am talking complete unit compared to complete unit.
Thanks
Chris


BTW, nice looking piece!!!!

anyone?

[chicane67]

Well.... considering that the only way to actually run a factory "hub" is to run drum brakes or cut down a one piece rotor.

.... but I'll get back to you on this.

[SatisTraction]

or you can turn the outside diameter of the hub and run the ls1 or vette brakes with the correct mount.

i was more interested in the weight savings.

[SatisTraction]

Well.... considering that the only way to actually run a factory "hub" is to run drum brakes or cut down a one piece rotor.

.... but I'll get back to you on this.

Shane (wickedmotorsports) PM'd me my answer. Thanks!!! :)

[MrQuick]

sorry im bringing this one back.
Tyler, how soon before they are available and how much longer and price for the X body front sway bar.

[wickedmotorhead]

Vince,

We are doing the final destructive testing in the next two weeks along with some track testing. They should be available by Christmas for sure. The price on them is $625 a pair with new C5 bearing packs. The f-body splined tune sway bar will be available early next year. Pricing should be comparable to the competition but is currently not finalized.

Shane

[USAZR1]

Vince,
We are doing the final destructive testing in the next two weeks along with some track testing. They should be available by Christmas for sure. The price on them is $625 a pair with new C5 bearing packs. The f-body splined tune sway bar will be available early next year. Pricing should be comparable to the competition but is currently not finalized.
Shane

Can you give me a price for a pair of the A-body spindles?

[andrewb70]

Shane, Tom, Tyler...

Can you guys make some comments about your new spindles as they may be used on an A-body. Maybe in this thread:

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12524

Thanks,
Andrew

[MrQuick]

Clint, it looks likethe same price for Abody. As far as the catalog list. Thanks Shane that works for me.

[wickedmotorhead]

The spindle price themselves will be the same, but will require a custom steer arm and possibly shorter upper control arms depending on our final configuration. We are still in the development stage of those right now so I cannot give a final price. We'll be sure to let you know as soon as everything is available.

Shane

[Steve68]

Oh Yah, a price!!!! no I have to get my name on the list, Shane will you put my name on the list!!! Tyler says your the the one

[Marcus SC&C]

We`ve started working with ATS on some new applications for their AFX spindles. I actually have a pair (one tall,one std. height) right here on my desk (jealous? :naughty: ). I have to keep a lot under my hat but I`ll try and give a few impressions at least.
First I wanna give ATS kudos for actually going out of their way to encourage independant testing of their parts by another company in the same industry. I don`t know of any other company in the field that would do that!
Second I want to say that they`ve really got something here. The quality of the parts rivals (and in some ways exceeds!) factory GM C5/C6 knuckles (which we have a LOT of experience with). We`ve just started our part of the testing and fitting but a few things are apparent already.
A) They`ll be fairly easy to adapt to other platforms (most with just a steering arm and BJ taper change).
B) The tall AFX spindles "can" be used with stock arms BUT even with offset shafts you may be limited (possibly very limited!) in what alignment settings you can run. This depends on ride height and other variables as well. This isn`t a criticism just a fact caused by any meaningful geometry change. Typical tubular arms will help in the caster dept but very little in the camber dept. Adj. arms like ours will allow a full range of street or competition settings with no restrictions regardless of setup and no possibility of ball joint binding in bump.
C) The stock height AFX spindles will work well with the G mod, our Stg.1 or 2 packages or both! The tall AFX spindles respond well to our tall upper ball joints for hardcore and track use. This combo is still shorter than the big spindle extenders and due to the slight drop in the spindles the arms are in a different possition also which help prevents the FVSA length and RC height from getting out of hand.
D) The tall AFX spindle should be adaptable to 2nd Gen F body (or B body for that matter). The interchangable ball joint tapers will take care of the basic fitment. A new steering arm will be required (longer and with a different vertical offset). The geometry will remain essentially unchanged but camber gain and RC location can still be greatly improved with our tall ball joint Street Comp packages. These cars don`t need as much improvement as the 1st gens in the first place. This would be a very nice way to go to get a MUCH lighter spindle with C5/C6 brake mounting and huge wheel bearing assys.
E) We`re very impressed with the AFX spindles,to the point that we`re becoming a dealer and will be offering them as is or as part of a new line of Street Comp packages. :D Marcus SC&C