Tattoos

[Mathius]

First off, I AM looking for opinions, but if you're popping in to say you don't like them, don't want them, don't understand them, you're really in the wrong thread. I have two tattoos, I'm very happy with them, and if I had more money I'd have more.

My question... I've always gone to get tattoos with the mindset that I should get them somewhere where they can be covered up. Currently I'm in a construction trade where it doesn't matter, but I'm also halfway to an associates degree in Applied Industrial Technology as part of my apprenticeship. I'm hoping to continue my education and see just what I can turn that into... an engineering degree, maybe become an architect, honestly I haven't taken the time to look into just what these credits or this degree are best applied to, it's part of my training, but I'm approaching my mid 30's already and I don't know if I want to wear the tools for another 25 years 'til I'm eligible for early retirement at 55/30.

What do you guys think as far as the american public's view on tattoos in a regular work setting? Have we progressed as a nation enough to wear they don't have to be hidden anymore? Obviously tattoos or any body modifications to the face still give a lot of people the vibe that you're a freak of some kind, and I'm not talking so much about the face, but what about say an arm sleeve or something on the hand?

What is your guys take on this?

Mathius

[Happyfunballs]

No place for them in the professional world, but that's JMHO. I would hesitate purchasing millions of dollars worth of equipment from somebody with "kill" tattooed across their knuckles.

[Blown73]

I would say keep them covered. In any industry, you deal with alot of people, and some people don't like tattoos. If you walk into a multi million dollar negotiation with a full sleeve, the prospective client instantly has some form of judgement, whether they like the tattoos or not.

Also, you don't always deal with your peer crowd. I deal with people twice my age, a generation where its not PC to have tattoos.

I like tattoos, but I also think that they should be covered up if you are going to get into an enginnering, construction manager, architect field.

[jy211]

All depends on the tattoo's. You have a lot of old timers who still view tattoo's as a moniker for outlaws and bad people. I am sleeved on one arm. People do still give me funny looks, but that life. First impressions are still very important in this day and age. The tattoos I have are still able to be covered. When I am in a suit and tie, no one see's them. However, the company I work for has ZERO issues with them. I am in a old school industry where the old dogs rule, but they accept the younger generation.( I am 35) LOL.

[67chevILL]

JMHO. in any work setting they are not professional. exceot if you are a pro-tattoo artist.

if you MUST get a tattoo make sure it can be covered with clothing.

[6'9"Witha69]

Make sure it can be covered. I have a half sleeve that goes up and covers my entire shoulder. As a Vice President at a bank, I have to take care not to let it show through white dress shirts, and polo shirts are a nono, even though it is covered normally, movement can uncover it. I sit in a lot of meetings with SVPs and EVPs, and the old dogs in those roles say they understand, but their expressions say differently. Hell, sometimes I get looks for the goatee.

[Tony_SS]

Some shops wont do them on the hands or neck. I'd say, if you have to question it, then there's your answer. Unless you are self sufficient, I wouldn't be getting them where a job might depend on it. You'll be judged negatively.

[Damn True]

Like Nick, I have tattoos. Like Nick, I work in a professional environment albeit in Silicon Valley an environment that is less "formal" than finance. Like Nick, my tattoos are invisible to anyone I might encounter in a professional capacity.

If I interview someone, male or female, with visible tattoos I see it as a strike against them. We do business with companies that are far less formal than ourselves, and we also do business with the biggest of the big Fortune 500 suit/tie type corporations and government organizations as well. A guy with a visible sleeve or neck tat or a lady with ivy wrapped around her ankle is two steps behind an equally qualified un-adorned applicant. Is it fair? No. But that is the reality of working in a professional environment.

Many younger people will read the above and think, "Well I wouldn't want to work somewhere that would look down on my personal expression of style." Hogwash. First of all, that severely limits your professional opportunity as companies such as that are few and far between. Second, no matter how "open-minded" a company is at some point they are going to attempt to do business with another company that isn't. Again...limiting. At the end of the day, regardless of your role in a professional capacity you are being hired to in some way represent the company you are working for. Given the above you want to present yourself in as professional a way as possible and that includes things that are perceived as counter-cultural or edgy in appearance.

I'll give you an example. A friend of mine has a son who fit's to a "T" the modern definition of "hipster". Skinny jeans, chuck taylors, those big stretch hoop piercings in his ears, scraggly 1/2-beard, ironic printed t's under a goofy cardigan, sleeve tat's and of course...a fixed gear bike. He is an EXTREMELY talented and highly regarded digital illustrator. He want's to advance into a "director" role at IL&M or Pixar (both local companies) but despite no less than 10 different opportunities for the promotion he cannot make the jump. His mentors keep telling him he needs to present a more professional appearance if he want's to move into management, as do I and his parents. He refuses to sacrifice "his right to express himself" and has been stuck in his individual contributor role for 6 years and is now working for two former peers 3-4 years his junior.

[6'9"Witha69]

Well put True.

[rfalker1]

Yep, the only job I know where tattoos don't matter or a plus is the Denver Nuggets lol, but in the proffesional world i think the ones are visible cause people to view u differently. But i don't have any tattoos, so i cant say for sure, but anyway nick i think there are plenty of places where u can put tattoos where people can't see them. Use those spots and be great at whatever u do.

[mellowyellowCJ7]

Also, don't forget this world is getting smaller and most every company is international or has international clients. Not all cultures are ok with marking your body, of course some encourage it, but unless you are Tongan keep'm covered.
Oh and another perspective that I have not seen here is the religious implications, my mother-in-law is a little to the wacko side of Christianity and she flipped out on my nephew last week for having a pretend tattoo. So there is the ultra conservative client that might write you off too. In her mind ink was marking the body, which taken to her extreme was a “mark of the beast.” Note that I consider myself less and less conservative every time I visit my in-laws. lol

[Mathius]

It's a sad world we live in where people are judged by their appearance more than anything else. I've heard several people in this thread contribute that you have to be prepared to do business with people who have more conservative attitudes, but IMHO, those are the people who are in the wrong.

Whatever though. I didn't start the thread with the intention of getting an answer I wanted to hear. I wanted to know what you guys really thought. It's just my own opinion, but as long as someone is clean and dressed appropriately and they haven't mutilated their face with excessive piercings, tattoos, or other body modifications, I don't see the issue, or where other people get off judging you.

Then again, this is an extremely judgmental world we live in.

And I guess a part of me can't help thinking you should go your own way anyways because the people who can look past a few tattoos and see the real personality, talent, and intelligence a person has are the real people _I_ want to be getting to know.

Mathius

[mellowyellowCJ7]

It's just my own opinion, but as long as someone is clean and dressed appropriately and they haven't mutilated their face with excessive piercings, tattoos, or other body modifications, I don't see the issue, or where other people get off judging you.

I think this is a little funny, because my mother-in-law and you have made the same distinction, but the lines were drawn in different places. "mutilated their face...." So you draw the line at the collar, and my mother-in-law would draw the line on paper, which means tattoos have mutilated their arms and that art should not be the body, but on paper, stone, canvas, etc. Same line, different place.
Don’t get me wrong, my mother-in-law loves all people in her own way and has recently taken in a guy with all sorts of tattoos and given him a job, fed him, and shown him much love. She hates tattoos, but not the person. I would go as far as saying she loves this person. Careful not to judge those people that don’t see tattoos as art, they just express themselves in other ways. :)
By saying, “if you don’t like tattoos, you are close minded” is rather close minded and judgemental IMHO. To be open minded, you need to allow others to have opinions, and dare I say a religious conviction, even if they don’t agree with you.

[Tony_SS]

It's a sad world we live in where people are judged by their appearance more than anything else. I've heard several people in this thread contribute that you have to be prepared to do business with people who have more conservative attitudes, but IMHO, those are the people who are in the wrong.

Whatever though. I didn't start the thread with the intention of getting an answer I wanted to hear. I wanted to know what you guys really thought. It's just my own opinion, but as long as someone is clean and dressed appropriately and they haven't mutilated their face with excessive piercings, tattoos, or other body modifications, I don't see the issue, or where other people get off judging you.

Then again, this is an extremely judgmental world we live in.

And I guess a part of me can't help thinking you should go your own way anyways because the people who can look past a few tattoos and see the real personality, talent, and intelligence a person has are the real people _I_ want to be getting to know.

Mathius


Would you get tattooed by someone without any visible tattoos?

[rfalker1]

no way lol

[Damn True]

Facts are facts. You never get a second chance to make a first impression.

This

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/04/imagesqtbnANd9GcTyEPRsgBc2oUK7GNDolsSuGg-1.jpg

makes a better first impression than this

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

FWIW, the above is from an article on Whole Foods who's dress code varies depending on the area in which the store resides. The above employee is allowed to wear a shirt exposing his tats in a store in the LA Basin but not at their stores in New England where he is from. Despite Whole Food's image they are a fairly conservatively run business and extremely savvy about the image their employees present regardless if that employee is a bagger or manager, because the employees and their professionalism are responsible for the lasting impressions left on their customers to a far greater extent than the freshness of the cucumbers.

If your planned direction is toward architecture I would caution you against visible tattoos and piercings. That is a VERY conservative environment despite the creative nature of those who do "the work". It's a sales job. You are selling your creativity or ability to translate the vision of your client to a consumer or corporation who's intent is to make one of the largest investments they will ever make. There is a lot of trust that needs to be built starting with the first handshake. You don't want to add overcoming a bad first impression to the challenges inherent in the process.

It's not a "lack of progression" it's simply a matter of fact that certain standards of dress and appearance are not appropriate in many professional environments in just the same way that shorts and a tank top are not appropriate dress for a dinner at the French Laundry.

[6'9"Witha69]

Would you get tattooed by someone without any visible tattoos?

Not just no, hell no.

[Mathius]

I think this is a little funny, because my mother-in-law and you have made the same distinction, but the lines were drawn in different places. "mutilated their face...." So you draw the line at the collar, and my mother-in-law would draw the line on paper, which means tattoos have mutilated their arms and that art should not be the body, but on paper, stone, canvas, etc. Same line, different place.
Don’t get me wrong, my mother-in-law loves all people in her own way and has recently taken in a guy with all sorts of tattoos and given him a job, fed him, and shown him much love. She hates tattoos, but not the person. I would go as far as saying she loves this person. Careful not to judge those people that don’t see tattoos as art, they just express themselves in other ways. :)
By saying, “if you don’t like tattoos, you are close minded” is rather close minded and judgemental IMHO. To be open minded, you need to allow others to have opinions, and dare I say a religious conviction, even if they don’t agree with you.

I'm not drawing a line at the face, I just feel as though people identify with each other buy their faces. Hair cuts can change, maybe facial hair, but that's how you identify someone. No matter how much weight you gain or how much muscle you gain, or if you lose a limb, etc. you're still identified to everyone by your facial appearance. I don't have a problem with people who get piercings, etc. but I do find this as one area where there is such a thing as excess. My sister has her nose pierced, as did my ex girlfriend. I have my ear pierced in 3 places. I have female friend's with eyebrow piercings and one who even has a metal stud surgically implanted in the back of her neck somehow that allows her to screw an earing into it. I interact with these people on a fairly regular basis, I get along with them, and I have no issues with them. But I can understand why others would be repulsed by it, because excess or simply a bad choice can certainly hurt your appearance. And lets be honest, tattoos aside, that's what our society cares about more than anything is outer beauty. :squint:

As for me being close minded for disagreeing with people who are close minded, that's really really silly, IMO. That's like saying I'm prejudice if I don't like people who are racist. Is it literally true? Sure, but it certainly doesn't reflect any kind of accepted morality.

Mathius

[Tony_SS]

When I first met my wife, she saw the hole in my ear and asked 'what happened to your earring'? I told her it fell out in the 9th grade. She still gets a kick out of that..

[shmoov69]

Whatever though. I didn't start the thread with the intention of getting an answer I wanted to hear. I wanted to know what you guys really thought. It's just my own opinion, but as long as someone is clean and dressed appropriately and they haven't mutilated their face with excessive piercings, tattoos, or other body modifications, I don't see the issue, or where other people get off judging you.

Then again, this is an extremely judgmental world we live in.

And I guess a part of me can't help thinking you should go your own way anyways because the people who can look past a few tattoos and see the real personality, talent, and intelligence a person has are the real people _I_ want to be getting to know.

Mathius

Interesting comment..... Hello pot, meet the kettle! LOL!

Long hair, piercings, tats, colored hair, gothic, emo...you name it! If it isn't "normal", you will have a hurdle to jump from the beginning compared to the "normal" of the world. Just life and the way it is.

[Mathius]

Would you get tattooed by someone without any visible tattoos?

I absolutely would. I don't see how one has anything to do with another. Particularly in Ohio where a licensed tattoo professional is required to serve an apprenticeship before they're allowed to tattoo professionally under license.

That's like saying you wouldn't let me work on your hot rod if I pulled up in a beat up old chevy cavalier to do the work.

It's a superficial assumption about how someone is supposed to act in your opinion.

Finding someone who can do a good tattoo is more about their work practices and their artistic ability than what they look like or how many tattoos or piercings they have on their own person. Particularly when you used the word "visible".


Facts are facts. You never get a second chance to make a first impression.

This

makes a better first impression than this

FWIW, the above is from an article on Whole Foods who's dress code varies depending on the area in which the store resides. The above employee is allowed to wear a shirt exposing his tats in a store in the LA Basin but not at their stores in New England where he is from. Despite Whole Food's image they are a fairly conservatively run business and extremely savvy about the image their employees present regardless if that employee is a bagger or manager, because the employees and their professionalism are responsible for the lasting impressions left on their customers to a far greater extent than the freshness of the cucumbers.

If your planned direction is toward architecture I would caution you against visible tattoos and piercings. That is a VERY conservative environment despite the creative nature of those who do "the work". It's a sales job. You are selling your creativity or ability to translate the vision of your client to a consumer or corporation who's intent is to make one of the largest investments they will ever make. There is a lot of trust that needs to be built starting with the first handshake. You don't want to add overcoming a bad first impression to the challenges inherent in the process.

It's not a "lack of progression" it's simply a matter of fact that certain standards of dress and appearance are not appropriate in many professional environments in just the same way that shorts and a tank top are not appropriate dress for a dinner at the French Laundry.

Except for your statement about it not being a "lack of progress" I'm not disagreeing with your perception of events. I'm just saying it isn't right.

There are many times in my life that I will meet people and just not like them just by looking at them. It's not a certain type of person, they don't have to say anything, it's just sometimes I meet people I just don't like. But I know within myself there's no logical reason for it, and it's my own personal character flaw and it isn't their fault. I'm usually pretty good about not letting it effect my attitude toward them and a lot of times I'll end up liking the person.

My friend that I've kept in contact the longest first met in 2nd grade. We didn't actually become friends until freshman year of h.s. We both hated each other before that. When we became friends and both said, "why did we hate each other so much?" Neither of us could come up with an answer. Here we are, both in our 30's, and we're still in touch, we live close to each other, rely on each other for different things, and it's the longest lasting friendship I've had.

It makes absolutely no sense to hold someone accountable for not living up to standards that YOU set for them, and the reality of it is, you lose out on dealing with or meeting some good quality people if you don't allow yourself to get to know them before forming an opinion.

And just an FYI, this is coming from a guy with zero social skills, who just quite frankly doesn't like most people in general.

Mathius

[MrQuick]

Thats the world we live in buddy. As a wise man once told me...."don't let your image determine your standing in the greater scope of being"

[Poopy]

I just got neck tattoos....it takes you to a whole new level of people staring at you thinking you are a bank robber. LOL I think its great...I love the scowls, and dirty looks from ignorant a-holes.

That said, If I really need to go to church or something, a collared shirt will cover them, as long as its long sleeved to cover my tattoo sleeves.

:)

[wmhjr]

True and Jimmy got it exactly right. You're making a huge mistake if you're associating people who really don't like tattoos with racists in your analogy. It's all about culture. Like it or not, when you take a cross-section of a cultural group stereotypes are formed. The facts are that tattoos are culturally associated in many cases with a type of person that is not sought after in even a semi-professional role. It's a stereotype. It doesn't mean that if you have a tattoo you truly fit that stereotype, but SOMETHING caused that stereotype to begin with. And you personally are not going to change it. Frankly, my guess is that this particular stereotype will still exist long after any of us are gone.

So, I guess you need to decide what is more important to you. Pretty much blatantly expressing your individualism and belief that appearances just don't matter? Or preserving as much opportunity for future careers and opportunities as you can?

BTW, I'm like True. If I interview somebody and they have visible tattoos it's a strike. Doesn't necessarily mean I won't hire them - though there are positions for which I would not due to the issue of who they need to deal with. But if I need to compare them to another equal candidate, they are at a disadvantage. In the case of somebody like True mentioned with the large ear rings, etc - they are out. No chance. Our environment often requires even individual contributors to interface with all kinds of people, including external people around the world. We can't afford to present a perception that we're not totally professional. That's how you lose business.

[Damn True]

Would you get tattooed by someone without any visible tattoos?

The better question is, "What would be your first impression of a tattoo artist who didn't appear to have tattoos?"

Mathius,

I'm not going to argue with you. You asked "how it is" and a number of folks have given you the answer. It sounds like you may be a kind of guy who enjoys, to some extent bucking convention. There is nothing inherently wrong with that and in some circles, and in some ways it can even be beneficial in terms of building a brand for yourself and developing a sort of notoriety. Just understand that it cuts both ways. You are going to run into people that are turned off by it.

Like it or not, a large part of transmitting one's professionalism in a given endeavor is based on appearance. Hence the canards such as "Look the part" and "Dress as if...". If you are intent on being that guy you need to realize that you are going to miss opportunities based on an appearance of being less professional than another equally qualified candidate. Particularly in a field as traditionally conservative as architecture.


And just an FYI, this is coming from a guy with zero social skills, who just quite frankly doesn't like most people in general.


This might prove problematic as well.

[Mathius]

True and Jimmy got it exactly right. You're making a huge mistake if you're associating people who really don't like tattoos with racists in your analogy.

That was not at all the analogy I was making. The point I was trying to make when I mentioned racists is because the poster said I was close minded for not accepting people who are close-minded about tattoos.

I was trying to point out how silly it is to tell someone their morally wrong for disagreeing with something they perceive as morally wrong.

But honestly I don't see how profiling based on tattoos or piercing is much different than profiling because of race except that one you're born with. But did you see the movie tropic thunder? It was a comedy, but in the movie Robert Downey Jr. had some kind of pigment procedure to make him look black. I don't know if such a procedure is possible or not, but would you say if some young white young man had a pigment augmentation to make him black that it's ok to say this person's "look" is wrong because he wasn't born as a black man, but became one?

I'm just trying to point out that it's all merely appearance. It's like discriminating against someone because their ugly or even more ridiculous because they wore a bad outfit that day. It happens all the time, but that doesn't make it right.

Mathius

[Tony_SS]

When it comes to impressions - It does not matter what you do, it matters what you say and how you look. For the most part, our society is a shallow, judgmental, superficial collectivist culture. It's just a fact. If that's some sort of social injustice you want to stamp out, then go for it. Be the change you want to see. But I don't think you'll get the results you want.

I have a quarter sleeve and other tattoos. I got them for me, not to prove anything to anyone else. So I'm not bashing folks with tattoos. But if you want to prove something, become successful first - then get then the tattoos you want on your neck and hands. That was one of their intended purposes. Ancient tribes used them as a rite of passage, an achievement or social status. They were earned.

Now tattoos and piercings just reflect our superficial society as they are just token decorations.

[6'9"Witha69]

Piercings and Tattoos are a cognitive decision. You must be aware, as True pointed out, that it goes both ways. I grew up a skater and punk rocker. I still love my punk music. I have tattoos. I had a tongue piercing as well as others. I learned very early on that those decisions hampered my development in society as there was a large section of people who didn't like it. So I made the decions to remove any piercing that may be seen (or even percieved) and to keep the tats easily covered.

And think about it, what kinds of people are usually tatted up? What are those tats of/about? Often times the person may have no objection to the existence of tattoos, but the content may be particularly offputting.

I guess it comes down to, "there's a time and a place for everything". In a professional environment is not exactly the time or place for showing off your creative individuality. WHat you have to say about the topic at hand based on your line of work / topic of the day should be the focus. Don't let things you can easily control cloud other peoples thoughts.


but would you say if some young white young man had a pigment augmentation to make him black that it's ok to say this person's "look" is wrong because he wasn't born as a black man, but became one?The real question is, what would that person be trying to say or prove? That is often the most time/thought consuming part of looking at people, What are they thinking/trying to prove with that statement?

[6'9"Witha69]

When it comes to impressions - It does not matter what you do, it matters what you say and how you look. For the most part, our society is a shallow, judgmental, superficial collectivist culture. It's just a fact. If that's some sort of social injustice you want to stamp out, then go for it. Be the change you want to see. But I don't think you'll get the results you want.

I have a quarter sleeve and other tattoos. I got them for me, not to prove anything to anyone else. So I'm not bashing folks with tattoos. But if you want to prove something, become successful first - then get then the tattoos you want on your neck and hands. That was one of their intended purposes. Ancient tribes used them as a rite of passage, an achievement or social status. They were earned.

Now tattoos and piercings just reflect our superficial society as they are just token decorations.

Or they were used to denote ownership of slaves. This goes back to the BC years. Just like branding/marking cattle. The WWII Germans did it to Jews at internment camps. So there is a lot of negative history associated with inking of the skin as well.

[wmhjr]

That was not at all the analogy I was making. The point I was trying to make when I mentioned racists is because the poster said I was close minded for not accepting people who are close-minded about tattoos.

I was trying to point out how silly it is to tell someone their morally wrong for disagreeing with something they perceive as morally wrong.

But honestly I don't see how profiling based on tattoos or piercing is much different than profiling because of race except that one you're born with. But did you see the movie tropic thunder? It was a comedy, but in the movie Robert Downey Jr. had some kind of pigment procedure to make him look black. I don't know if such a procedure is possible or not, but would you say if some young white young man had a pigment augmentation to make him black that it's ok to say this person's "look" is wrong because he wasn't born as a black man, but became one?

I'm just trying to point out that it's all merely appearance. It's like discriminating against someone because their ugly or even more ridiculous because they wore a bad outfit that day. It happens all the time, but that doesn't make it right.

Mathius

Mathius, It is far different - for one fundamental reason. "Profiling" isn't a term I'd suggest using here for the obvious confusion it could create. "Bias" certainly is. And the big difference is that if I meet somebody who is black, white, short, tall, or even as ugle as me, those are appearances for which they made no decisions and executed no judgement in. I'm 6'2". I had no choice to become 5'11" or 6'5". I had no choice in my facial structure. Or that I'm white - or somebody else did in that they are black.

Tattoos are a demonstration of choice, and judgement. Frankly, this thread in and of itself is ample proof to me that in introducing bias concerning my interviews of people with visible tattoos is valid. You are struggling trying to figure out if it's "right" or "worth it" to you to try and more seamlessly assimilate with others who may not share your views. That is a demonstrated "judgement" that I can with good reason say would give me concerns about hiring you in a role where you might need to interact with such people. I don't want to have to worry about whether or not somebody feels so strongly about their own personal rights to look the way they want. I don't want to hire somebody who is showing - up front before they are even hired - at least some inability to compromise.

And as for the idea about somebody wearing a "bad outfit" - you just made my point even stronger. That's why we have dress codes in many professional lives. So that we can insure that we present an appearance that is most likely to make us successful.

You have every right to have any tattoo you want. You don't have a right to any job you want. By failing to understand the very logical and relevant reasons why an employer may not want visible tattoos, you are in fact being close minded. And your desire to impose your particular belief on THEIR company is IMHO at the very least unethical. I understand it, but this is planet earth.

[twosaturns]

Mathius, you said:
Have we progressed as a nation enough to wear they don't have to be hidden anymore?
IDK if many people would call the proliferation of tattoos 'progress'.
simple fact is, if you want to play the game, you have to play by the rules. if you want to be in the business world, you dress the part, conforming to THEM, not the other way around.
it's not just tattoos either; how many businessmen or politicians do you see with full beards or long hair? quite the minority (in politics, no beards or long hair at all).
if you want to be all tough and whatnot, then go on with your bad self and get a tattoo, that's your freedom of choice. but don't expect anyone else to 'have' to agree with 'your' choice, nor try to play the victim card and saying you're being 'judged'. they are not being judgmental, that's the other person exercising their 'rights' to not agree with you.

[Damn True]

Tattoos are a demonstration of choice, and judgement. Frankly, this thread in and of itself is ample proof to me that in introducing bias concerning my interviews of people with visible tattoos is valid. You are struggling trying to figure out if it's "right" or "worth it" to you to try and more seamlessly assimilate with others who may not share your views. That is a demonstrated "judgement" that I can with good reason say would give me concerns about hiring you in a role where you might need to interact with such people. I don't want to have to worry about whether or not somebody feels so strongly about their own personal rights to look the way they want. I don't want to hire somebody who is showing - up front before they are even hired - at least some inability to compromise.

This is an excellent point. If I'm interviewing someone who knows the standard of dress/appearance for the organization and they consciously present themselves in a manner contrary to that I am led to believe that they don't care what the organization thinks or values. By extension, it's not a real stretch to imagine that they don't care what our clients think or value either.

Interview over.

[Tony_SS]

They always say dress for the job you want... that's probably why I always wore jeans and a t-shirt before I left my old corporate job.


Or they were used to denote ownership of slaves. This goes back to the BC years. Just like branding/marking cattle. The WWII Germans did it to Jews at internment camps. So there is a lot of negative history associated with inking of the skin as well.

Well I speaking about those who voluntary got tattoo'd. :P But yes, regardless, tattooing does still have some of that stigma attached to it.

[Fastrun72]

What's mine say? " SWEET!!!".... Now what's mine say? "DUDE!!!"

[Mathius]

When it comes to impressions - It does not matter what you do, it matters what you say and how you look. For the most part, our society is a shallow, judgmental, superficial collectivist culture. It's just a fact. If that's some sort of social injustice you want to stamp out, then go for it. Be the change you want to see. But I don't think you'll get the results you want.

I have a quarter sleeve and other tattoos. I got them for me, not to prove anything to anyone else. So I'm not bashing folks with tattoos. But if you want to prove something, become successful first - then get then the tattoos you want on your neck and hands. That was one of their intended purposes. Ancient tribes used them as a rite of passage, an achievement or social status. They were earned.

Now tattoos and piercings just reflect our superficial society as they are just token decorations.

It's not a question of trying to do something to prove something, it's a question of just being myself and allowing people to have to judge me by who I am, rather than how I look.


And think about it, what kinds of people are usually tatted up?

You're talking in circles. You're making a broad statement that strongly hints that people who are "tatted up" are less desirable people to hire and/or associate with, but you're also saying a minute later that responsible people will dress according to the norm. If these conditions set by society didn't exist, you can bet there'd be a whole lot more people "tatted up" as you put it. How many people in this thread alone have expressed that they've limited their tattoos for the simple fact that the "business world" doesn't accept it.

Mathius

[Mathius]

Mathius, It is far different - for one fundamental reason. "Profiling" isn't a term I'd suggest using here for the obvious confusion it could create.

I don't see any confusion. There's no difference between you profiling people because of their visible tattoos and the airports profiling muslims. It's the same EXACT thing. You have a perceived perception of people based on YOUR opinion or perception of what you think the vast majority of tattoo'ed people behave like, or manage to achieve. It's the same way police and airport security have a reputation of pulling Muslims aside because it's perceived that the vast majority of Muslims in america are potential terrorists.

One just happens to be a more serious charge.


Tattoos are a demonstration of choice, and judgement. Frankly, this thread in and of itself is ample proof to me that in introducing bias concerning my interviews of people with visible tattoos is valid. You are struggling trying to figure out if it's "right" or "worth it" to you to try and more seamlessly assimilate with others who may not share your views. That is a demonstrated "judgement" that I can with good reason say would give me concerns about hiring you in a role where you might need to interact with such people. I don't want to have to worry about whether or not somebody feels so strongly about their own personal rights to look the way they want. I don't want to hire somebody who is showing - up front before they are even hired - at least some inability to compromise.

This is my number one beef with the vast majority of american culture. The fact that you would look at a person with visible tattoos or read a thread I wrote here on a board, and automatically form an opinion and bias as you put it against them is arrogant and illogical to the extreme. It's also judgmental.

You don't know me from Jesus Christ anymore than you know a random person that walks up to you in a job interview, but you're willing to make all kinds of perceptions and judgments based on one interview or conversation? You don't have any idea what's going on in my head, why I reason things the way I do, etc. etc.

That's why we USED to have multiple interviews in this country, but we of course like everything else determined them to cost too much. It's also a grand reason why we have such a large job turnover rate in this country, because people decide to form an opinion of someone based on a 15 min interview and then if they don't fit your perception of what you think they're capable of, they're out the door.

Seriously? Professional sports scout people for months and years, and they still can't pick for sh*t in the draft or figure out which players are going to run within league rules or even american laws.


And as for the idea about somebody wearing a "bad outfit" - you just made my point even stronger. That's why we have dress codes in many professional lives. So that we can insure that we present an appearance that is most likely to make us successful.

Clothes don't make you successful. Working hard, presenting the right attitude, and having the right education and skills for your job level make you successful.


You have every right to have any tattoo you want. You don't have a right to any job you want. By failing to understand the very logical and relevant reasons why an employer may not want visible tattoos, you are in fact being close minded. And your desire to impose your particular belief on THEIR company is IMHO at the very least unethical. I understand it, but this is planet earth.

Their not logical reasons, they're personal prejudices and perceptions, and not agreeing with it doesn't make me close minded. You're not close minded for failing to accept a concept that has no logical ramifications. There is no logical evidence to support the statement that having visible tattoos makes you a bad worker, an uneducated worker, or a worker incapable of a professional attitude.

And I'm not imposing my beliefs on anyone. I'm having a debate and a discussion. If I choose to get visible tattoos or if I don't it's not going to make one lick of difference how an owner decides to run his company.

You should go look up the word impose. I'm not forcing or attempting to force anyone to do anything. I'm simply pointing out something that I don't see as logical for any reason.

Mathius

[Mathius]

This is an excellent point. If I'm interviewing someone who knows the standard of dress/appearance for the organization and they consciously present themselves in a manner contrary to that I am led to believe that they don't care what the organization thinks or values. By extension, it's not a real stretch to imagine that they don't care what our clients think or value either.

Interview over.

That's only releveant if you're aware of those standards beforehand. Throwing the words "professional appearance" around, and imposing a formal written dress code are two different things.

Mathius

[Mathius]

Mathius, you said:
Have we progressed as a nation enough to wear they don't have to be hidden anymore?
IDK if many people would call the proliferation of tattoos 'progress'.
simple fact is, if you want to play the game, you have to play by the rules. if you want to be in the business world, you dress the part, conforming to THEM, not the other way around.
it's not just tattoos either; how many businessmen or politicians do you see with full beards or long hair? quite the minority (in politics, no beards or long hair at all).
if you want to be all tough and whatnot, then go on with your bad self and get a tattoo, that's your freedom of choice. but don't expect anyone else to 'have' to agree with 'your' choice, nor try to play the victim card and saying you're being 'judged'. they are not being judgmental, that's the other person exercising their 'rights' to not agree with you.

Oh come on? You know very well I'm not saying that the "proliferation of tattoos" is progress. I'm talking about a much bigger issue, which is judging someone by their appearance.

And again, I believe this is the third time I've said this... I know how the world works, I'm just saying it's not right. There's no logical basis for such prejudice.

Mathius

[Damn True]

That's only releveant if you're aware of those standards beforehand.

If you aren't aware, you haven't done your homework and you've demonstrated a disrespect for the organization that has granted you an opportunity to interview with them.

If an applicant has not done enough due diligence to research the corporate culture of the organization that he is trying to convince to hire him he has further demonstrated a lack of professionalism. A person who demonstrates professionalism takes the time to learn about the company and it's culture, it's values and exercises enough introspection to determine if he fits or needs to tweak a few things to fit. If he can't put forth that small level of effort...and all it usually takes is a couple of questions to the HR rep who sets up the interview... why on earth would I assume he'd put forth the effort to learn the culture and values of our clients?


Throwing the words "professional appearance" around, and imposing a formal written dress code are two different things.

Mathius No they aren't. If you don't know what "professional appearance" means within the context of the organization you seek to join you aren't prepared for the interview, let alone prepared to work there. In eleven years in Silicon Valley I've never seen a formal written dress code at any company I've worked for yet the professionals I work with know what a professional appearance is within the context of their individual roles in the organization, as has every applicant I've hired.

Further, a professional appearance is circumstantial. Some of our clients are start-ups. If we are in a meeting with them we dress in a manner that is in keeping with their norm. Often, that is jeans and a golf shirt, if you've seen "The Social Network" you'll have seen that some are even more casual than that...and I've been in that building more times than I care to count. By the same token we have clients that are Fortune 500 companies or government entities. For a meeting in that environment I break out the Boss, Baroni or Fiorelli because a suit is the appropriate standard of dress within those environments. It's about respect for the culture you are being invited into and it is incumbent on you as a job applicant or representative of a company to demonstrate that respect as a function of professionalism.

[Tony_SS]

That's why I suggested wearing the monkey suit, landing the gig, crush heads to climb the ladder, and when you're vice president of the company, get a big ol giant tattoo on your neck that says "not a step".

[Damn True]

This is my number one beef with the vast majority of american culture. The fact that you would look at a person with visible tattoos or read a thread I wrote here on a board, and automatically form an opinion and bias as you put it against them is arrogant and illogical to the extreme. It's also judgmental.

You don't know me from Jesus Christ anymore than you know a random person that walks up to you in a job interview, but you're willing to make all kinds of perceptions and judgments based on one interview or conversation? You don't have any idea what's going on in my head, why I reason things the way I do, etc. etc.

You are missing the point. The judgment isn't against you as a person or even against your ability to perform the tactical elements of the job you are applying for. The judgment is against your lack of preparedness for an interview by not dressing appropriately for it, if not your lack of judgment in your disregard for the corporate culture of the organization you seek to join. If you were otherwise appropriately dressed but you had exposed tattoos the judgment would be against your ability, by virtue of your appearance to represent the company appropriately. In some circumstances it wouldn't be an issue. In most corporate environments it is, which is why Nick, myself and others with tattoos have them only in places that can be covered when in a professional standard of dress.



Clothes don't make you successful. Working hard, presenting the right attitude, and having the right education and skills for your job level make you successful.
Mathius

None of which matters if your appearance is not in keeping with the corporate culture, standards & values of the organization. If you aren't able or willing to represent the company in the manner they've have decided upon you'll likely be disappointed in the outcome of your candidacy.

[mellowyellowCJ7]

You don't know me from Jesus Christ anymore than you know a random person that walks up to you in a job interview, but you're willing to make all kinds of perceptions and judgments based on one interview or conversation? You don't have any idea what's going on in my head, why I reason things the way I do, etc. etc.
The interviewer is paid to make judgments based on that interview and owes the interviewee nothing. The interviewee has one shot at communicating what is going on in his or her head and what value they bring to the company.

That's why we USED to have multiple interviews in this country, but we of course like everything else determined them to cost too much. It's also a grand reason why we have such a large job turnover rate in this country, because people decide to form an opinion of someone based on a 15 min interview and then if they don't fit your perception of what you think they're capable of, they're out the door.
Get that engineering degree and your interview process will change a great deal. The last interview process I entered into involved was on the order of 8 hours.

Getting back to your original post, you said that you’re exploring what doors will open with more education? Many
Then you essentially asked what doors will close if you get tattoos on your arm and hands? A few
If you go into an interview and give any hint that you have a chip on your shoulder of any sort, but particulary about unfair characterization/stereotypes/profiling, how many doors will close? Nearly all

I'm not saying you have a chip on your shoulder, because as you said, I don't know you outside of this thread, but you using a lot of lauguage and buzz words that screem, the world doesn't like who I want to be and that's not fair, so I really hope this is a case of internet communication breakdown.

[parsonsj]

That's why we USED to have multiple interviews in this country, but we of course like everything else determined them to cost too much. It's also a grand reason why we have such a large job turnover rate in this country, because people decide to form an opinion of someone based on a 15 min interview and then if they don't fit your perception of what you think they're capable of, they're out the door.Got any evidence for such a claim?

[Damn True]

Get that engineering degree and your interview process will change a great deal. The last interview process I entered into involved was on the order of 8 hours.

Ain't that the truth? The last time I was looking for a job I spent no less than 8hrs interviewing with each corporation I was seriously pursuing. My current position involved 2hrs with an HR rep, 2hrs with the CEO, 1hr with the VP of sales, 2hrs with the VP of sales ops, an hour each with 3 would be peers and 1hr with the CEO AGAIN.

Not sure where Mathius got the idea about 15min interviews. I've never had one that brief as an applicant for a position I was seriously pursuing.

[6'9"Witha69]

Most of my interviews are scheduled for an hour. All of them run far past their allotted time. I ask people the same question multiple ways at various times. I analyze how they think. How they come to a decision. How comfortable they are. I also look at lots of non verbal communication. Positioning, movement, eye contact, fidgeting, etc. I got trained how to interview people. I also ensure that additional interviews by my peers, my boss and my various business partners are conducted as appropriate based on the level of position for which I am hiring.

Perhaps $8/hr mcDonalds interviews are 15 minutes long, but if I am hiring for a titled position, or someone who will have a lot of interaction with titled people, that person is either here for 6-8 hours, or will spend an equivalent time over 2-3 visits.

[Damn True]

Mathius,

This isn't going anywhere so I'll depart the discussion after this; You expressed a desire to work toward a career in architecture. I will tell you that for the most part you will find that arena to be rather conservative and by virtue of that I would strongly recommend you avoid tattoos that would be exposed in at a minimum a "business casual" standard of dress. You are unlikely to be around co-workers or clients in anything short of slacks and a golf shirt, or perhaps shorts and a golf shirt if you are hosting or invited to a golf outing with a client. I would recommend you consider "off-limits" any exposed skin while dressed in the manner previously described.

You are of course perfectly within your right to ignore the above but do so with the understanding that you absolutely will be creating an uphill battle for yourself that you will face on a daily basis and you will be closing a large number of opportunities as a result.

[CarlC]

The multiple interview process is alive and well. A second interview may only happen if the first impression is good. That first impression is directly proportional to how you look, act, and speak. If you like to make waves, buck the system, and in general argue with everyone, then that second interview is going to go to someone else in most cases.

Example. If a job candidate shows up for an interview with me and they are wearing ear rings, lip rings, nose rings, necklaces, etc., they are immediately out of the running. Want to guess why? It has everything to do with understanding the job, respecting the customer, and learning about what the job requires. If a candidate is willing to disregard these fundamentals, what else are they willing to disregard? That goes right back to "Want to guess why?"

If you don't agree with Corporate policy then start your own business and hire as you see fit. That's capitalism.

Oh, and several of the guys that work for me are tatt'ed, but they cannot be seen in normal dress. That goes for many others that I work with.

[Mathius]

Ain't that the truth? The last time I was looking for a job I spent no less than 8hrs interviewing with each corporation I was seriously pursuing. My current position involved 2hrs with an HR rep, 2hrs with the CEO, 1hr with the VP of sales, 2hrs with the VP of sales ops, an hour each with 3 would be peers and 1hr with the CEO AGAIN.

Not sure where Mathius got the idea about 15min interviews. I've never had one that brief as an applicant for a position I was seriously pursuing.

I don't know, maybe because I get the impression you've never held a "normal" job where you weren't required to have a college education or where you never considered it a career. Maybe back when you were in h.s. Or maybe you think that was your time in the military? I think I remember you saying or at least implying that you served.

If you've never held a job that you've considered disposable that you were just doing because you needed the pay check, then I guess you couldn't really relate. I admit I haven't applied for a ton of jobs in my lifetime. I consider that a good thing, because it shows I'm a person who perseveres and has the ability to hold onto a job. But of the 3 or 4 jobs I have interviewed for, while there were usually multiple interviews, I don't remember any of them lasting longer than 20 minutes.


Got any evidence for such a claim?

Gee John, why'd you edit your original message where you said you thought I made that up? It's not the first time you've come within the same room as calling me a liar.




I'm not saying you have a chip on your shoulder, because as you said, I don't know you outside of this thread, but you using a lot of lauguage and buzz words that screem, the world doesn't like who I want to be and that's not fair, so I really hope this is a case of internet communication breakdown.

Yeah this is the point where the thread generally degenerates every time I try to have a prolonged communication here. Most people have this perceived idea of how people are supposed to talk. I'm not writing a story here, this isn't a formal application, I talk how I talk. If you were sitting in the same room with me, or we were having a web cam conversation where you could hear my tone, or see my body language I think you'd have a totally different opinion.

It's ironic both because it's the same kind of thing I'm talking about in regards to appearance, but also because what you guys perceive as "normal" typing tone, I often find threatening. For example, I have always found True and especially Parsons' to come off as very condescending, particularly the way they like to throw out the last word and then lock threads, but most others don't seem to have issues with them. Maybe they just like me. Actually when I first joined here, Parsons was a pretty nice and helpful guy.

I'm sorry I don't live up to anyone's communication standards anymore than I conform to your ideas of professionalism.

I really don't have anything more to say in this thread. I'm not trying to change anyone's opinions, just defend my own statements, or clarify if necessary. I think judging people on appearance is wrong, and I don't agree with True's statement about researching a company either. Often times the attire expected during the interview process is nowhere near what you would wear on a job to begin with. And again, I understand that this is how it is, I just don't agree with it, and I started this thread, because I had thought that there was a chance that in a society where guys like Jesse James, Russell Mitchell, various rockstars, etc. are seen day in and day out on television with tattoos and piercings or worse that we might have moved beyond just seeing a mark on someone's skin. Judging someone's intent without knowing them is just wrong.

I don't think there's really much left for me to say.

Mathius

[parsonsj]

Gee John, why'd you edit your original message where you said you thought I made that up? It's not the first time you've come within the same room as calling me a liar.I'll take that as a no.

[parsonsj]

Another downside to tattoos:

http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-odd-tattoo-leads-to-conviction,0,190198.story?hpt=T2

[Tony_SS]

Another downside to tattoos:

http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-odd-tattoo-leads-to-conviction,0,190198.story?hpt=T2

I would say that's a downside to being an idiot.

[Damn True]

I don't know, maybe because I get the impression you've never held a "normal" job where you weren't required to have a college education or where you never considered it a career. Maybe back when you were in h.s. Or maybe you think that was your time in the military? I think I remember you saying or at least implying that you served.

If you've never held a job that you've considered disposable that you were just doing because you needed the pay check, then I guess you couldn't really relate. I admit I haven't applied for a ton of jobs in my lifetime. I consider that a good thing, because it shows I'm a person who perseveres and has the ability to hold onto a job. But of the 3 or 4 jobs I have interviewed for, while there were usually multiple interviews, I don't remember any of them lasting longer than 20 minutes.

You presume too much.




I don't agree with True's statement about researching a company either. Often times the attire expected during the interview process is nowhere near what you would wear on a job to begin with.

I don't think there's really much left for me to say.


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/04/impliedfacepalmba-1.jpg

[mellowyellowCJ7]

Yeah this is the point where the thread generally degenerates every time I try to have a prolonged communication here. Most people have this perceived idea of how people are supposed to talk. I'm not writing a story here, this isn't a formal application, I talk how I talk. If you were sitting in the same room with me, or we were having a web cam conversation where you could hear my tone, or see my body language I think you'd have a totally different opinion.
I get the feeling we could have this conversation over a beer and at the end we'd both be smiling and I'd probably pat you on the back of the shoulder and say something stupid like, good luck changing the world, but in the mean time keep your tattoos under the collar. :)

[mellowyellowCJ7]

Another downside to tattoos:

http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-odd-tattoo-leads-to-conviction,0,190198.story?hpt=T2

Please note that all of his tattoos can be covered with proper business attire. :p

[parsonsj]

Please note that all of his tattoos can be covered with proper business attire.I guess he's ready for corporate life, lol.

[wmhjr]

Yeah this is the point where the thread generally degenerates every time I try to have a prolonged communication here. Most people have this perceived idea of how people are supposed to talk. I'm not writing a story here, this isn't a formal application, I talk how I talk. If you were sitting in the same room with me, or we were having a web cam conversation where you could hear my tone, or see my body language I think you'd have a totally different opinion.

Mathius, I need to put my foot down here. You started this thread asking for feedback. You got it. You don't like it. So now, everyone else is either wrong, racist, or somehow flawed otherwise. Everyone else BTW, who may have gone through hundreds of interviews, who may RUN companies if not own them, many of whom have their OWN tattoos. I don't have a problem with your language or your communication. I simply believe you started the thread either hoping for vindication of your own opinion, or with an intent to stir the pot. That's fine.

But.

You're wrong. Nobody is assailing your ability to choose to have tattoos whever in gods name you want them. Do what you want. But please don't just spew BS about "what's wrong with this country" etc. I'm in the midst of hiring 5 more direct reports to me right now. The process BEGINS with phone screens of selected applicants. Then, since these are senior individual contributor technical roles in the $100k range, it goes to technical phone screens. Then about 6 hour long interviews with various people. Finally, a very small subset will interview with me. They will have a minimum of 10 hours of phone/interview time prior to getting an offer letter. I can't afford bad hires. The investment of both time and money is too large. Judgement and ability to consider somebody elses viewpoint and not introduce unnecessary conflict are essential. This has been the hiring practice everywhere I've been for at least the past 12 yrs. At MY level, it's WAY more involved than that. So please reserve your assumptions for how "hiring is done" for people who don't hire.

Anyway, I don't know you and have no idea of you're a great guy (which you probably are) or not. My job in selecting people is to use my JUDGEMENT to try and guess how an individual will meet our commercial needs based on every bit of information, perception and intuition I can bring to bear. Your tattoos are right in my face if they're exposed, and I can do nothing but guess. My guess will always favor those who try to fit the model of a "professional" at work.

Let me tell you something else - pure fact. A question I ask EVERY SINGLE CANDIDATE is to tell me what they know about my company. It tells me how much they prepared. If they have prepared, it is a logical extension to conclude there is a better chance of them being a thorough, diligent and meticulous employee than somebody who walks in cold.

Judging someones intent without knowing them is EXACTLY what the interview process is all about. Period. End of story.

[shmoov69]

Man....where is the dead horse icon?!?

Get your sleeve man!! Go do it! Now!! Hurry!!! Prove us wrong, you are going to have to for any one of to believe it!! You asked, you got answers, you don't like them and want to argue your point. We all hear your point, it's a good point, but it just don't fly in reality!

My wife DVR's a show that she watches when I am trying to go to sleep in bed, it is called "How Do I Look?". I don't know the channel, but you can watch that a few times and see how "the real world" perceives "individualism". It is NOT with open arms and accepting of "personal statement". Just life, deal with it!

[parsonsj]

Yeah this is the point where the thread generally degenerates every time I try to have a prolonged communication here. Let's search for the common element...

[454bug]

Let's recap...

The guy asks a question. He gets answers. He doesn't like the answers. He argues why the world is screwed up and should see it his way. Any amount of reasoning with the guy to see the "big picture" of professionalism is ignored. He then resorts to labeling the same individuals who are attempting to help the guy. Very sad... :guilty:

It's almost like the guy threw a question out there, knowing what the answers would be, just looking to pick a fight... He says he doesn't like too many people... With that kind of chip on his shoulder, that comment is probably a two-way street...

Tattoos are cool. Like anything else, they just have their place and time to be displayed, viewed, and enjoyed.

[Daren]

The interviewer is paid to make judgments based on that interview and owes the interviewee nothing. The interviewee has one shot at communicating what is going on in his or her head and what value they bring to the company.

Get that engineering degree and your interview process will change a great deal. The last interview process I entered into involved was on the order of 8 hours.

Getting back to your original post, you said that you’re exploring what doors will open with more education? Many
Then you essentially asked what doors will close if you get tattoos on your arm and hands? A few
If you go into an interview and give any hint that you have a chip on your shoulder of any sort, but particulary about unfair characterization/stereotypes/profiling, how many doors will close? Nearly all

I'm not saying you have a chip on your shoulder, because as you said, I don't know you outside of this thread, but you using a lot of lauguage and buzz words that screem, the world doesn't like who I want to be and that's not fair, so I really hope this is a case of internet communication breakdown.


The engineering field holds interviews on the order of 8 hours? *gulp* I'm a mechanical engineering major. Scary. But hey I went with engineering as major for a reason.

[Twentyover]

Daren-

My last employer flew me out from CA to Detroit, rented me a car, and put me up in a hotel 2 nights for the interview. You can bet the interview lasted more than 20 minutes. The employer before that flew me from Oregon to CA early on a Saturday morning and I spent the next 4 hours talking to the guys I'd report to. They also asked peers to come in for a little face time.

I'm no hot dog management type, just an old fart engineer who chose a technical career path rather than management.

Remember that interviews aren't advesarial- if you bagged the interview, you pretty much have already demonstrated technical capabilities. The question is how do you fit in the existing or proposed team. Chemistry is pretty significant, attitude moreso.

[gsxrken]

Get whatever tattoo you want, wherever you want. It won't be the thing holding you back.

[showa]

The voices told me to get my Ink...... and piercings ......

[showa]

They also made me buy that tie with a big skull on it.....

[showa]

But on the job, depending what my duty is that day, I may not be showing any tats, piercings or even that skull tie....

Other days it is all cool... but I still have a modecum of professionalism to present....

[Daren]

Daren-

My last employer flew me out from CA to Detroit, rented me a car, and put me up in a hotel 2 nights for the interview. You can bet the interview lasted more than 20 minutes. The employer before that flew me from Oregon to CA early on a Saturday morning and I spent the next 4 hours talking to the guys I'd report to. They also asked peers to come in for a little face time.

I'm no hot dog management type, just an old fart engineer who chose a technical career path rather than management.

Remember that interviews aren't advesarial- if you bagged the interview, you pretty much have already demonstrated technical capabilities. The question is how do you fit in the existing or proposed team. Chemistry is pretty significant, attitude moreso.

Thank you sir. How the heck did you ever survive engineering school? You older guys have nothing but my admiration!!! When the time comes I'll throw my self out on the job market and roll with the punches.

[DarkBuddha]

I didn't read this whole thread, but I wanted to offer my perspective on the original question. To be clear, I have no tattoos, mainly because I don't feel a need and don't know what I'd get anyway (probably a bit of fear of regret in there too). Anyway...

I personally have no issue with tattoos showing with folks I work with (either as a customer or associate or boss). But then again, I often make a connection with those people, both from the perspective of culture and from the perspective of being judged. I've spent my whole life being big and/or fat, and I've never exactly had a 100% conventional appearance (whether hair or clothing). The world is both judgmental and prejudiced, and I've experienced it first hand, and I understand that it's not always accurate.

That said, I'm not surprised when others ("normal folks") do have hesitation working with folks with tattoos. We all know that tattoos have stereotypical associations based on historical and cultural examples. The problem is that those stereotypes are not completely inaccurate all of the time. Gang members, convicts, bikers (the non-law abiding type), etc. still wear tattoos and still do bad stuff. Why would any reasonable person want to possibly risk unnecessary interaction with someone that might possibly have bad or dangerous intentions or lifestyle? Seems reasonable to want to avoid such folks.

So what to do... if you're tattooed, don't be surprised or affronted when there are folks that don't wanna deal/work with you. Instead, reconcile yourself to accepting business/work from folks who aren't judgmental or are empathetic to how you present yourself, your work, or your business. It may be a small group, but they aren't isolated. If you demonstrate good work and talent, or whatever, you can hope they'll pass the word on and broaden your appeal to the larger pool of potential customers.

But whatever you do, don't blame others for not sharing your views on tattoos or how they view those with tattoos. Instead, show them and change them.

[Twentyover]

Thank you sir. How the heck did you ever survive engineering school? You older guys have nothing but my admiration!!! When the time comes I'll throw my self out on the job market and roll with the punches.

The awesome power of the Texas Instruments SR-50 hand held calculator.

Previous posters have pointed out- do your research on the potential employer- know what they do, where they're headed, how they judge success- you know, the stuff that all the books tell you to do.

[WS6]

I didn't have time to read this entire post, just the original post. I got a tattoo on my calf because I'll always been in pants at work from now until I no longer work for a company. I like sleeve tattoos but didn't want to wear long sleeves for the rest of my life. Granted I'm in the oil industry so tattoos aren't uncommon but you'll rarely find a visible tattoo on anyone in management. Tattoos don't bother me depending on their content but I didn't want to be held back because of my preferences as compared to my employer's.

On a side note I'm still considering getting my entire lower leg done. I just can't decide on a design etc. This is definitely something that would be harder to over look than a single tattoo not because of content but because of coverage/size.

[SLO_Z28]

Previous posters have pointed out- do your research on the potential employer- know what they do, where they're headed, how they judge success- you know, the stuff that all the books tell you to do.

^This.

Sometimes simple appearance changes can make a big difference. I currently work for a law enforcement agency where they have very strict grooming and appearance standards, before I interviewed I shaved my beard off because I knew it was at odds with the agency's culture. You also want to dress one step above the job you're interviewing for, in my case it was a automotive technician position so I wore a nice dress shirt and a nice tie, if I were interviewing for a officer position I would wear a tailored suit and tie. Granted there are officers with full "sleeves" but its generally not accepted in that culture, and I can remember on several occasions the previous commander would go out of his way to give the officer crap about it. I know that would have been an uphill battle for him to get hired. Wearing long sleeve shirts in the summer heat would be motivation enough for me to not want to

My dad always had a good way of putting it "If you want to make a million bucks you have to look like a million bucks".

[Mathius]

I get the feeling we could have this conversation over a beer and at the end we'd both be smiling

Yes, I think we'd probably have a great time.


and I'd probably pat you on the back of the shoulder and say something stupid like, good luck changing the world, but in the mean time keep your tattoos under the collar. :)

There is where I have a mental disconnect with this entire thread. I'm not trying to change anything. I don't have the energy for such a futile endeavor. I'm not heated, I'm not upset, etc. Over the last couple of days the few times I've popped in here I've been more annoyed at not being able to get my microtorch lit for a project I'm working on than anything that's going on in this thread. I don't know these people personally, so why would I waste the energy? I don't know where people are getting the perception that I'm upset just because I'm persistent in my viewpoint? Again, maybe some of the supposed "buzz words". I dunno. I am agitated with the particular moderators who seem to consistently enter my threads and deliberately try to provoke me, but that is an ongoing issue.

When I say I think people should be able to present themselves however they want and not be judged by it (assuming they are clean, etc.) and the other viewpoint says people should adhere to an unwritten dress code accepted by society, I can't for the life of me understand how I'm the close minded one? My viewpoint allows you to continue to wear a suit and tie if that's what you feel, while theirs restricts you to that attire.

I think there are several people in this thread who don't pay attention to words that make up comparisons and analogy's. If I use an analogy about racism, that doesn't mean I'm calling you a racist. I could be wrong, but I don't think I've called anyone any names in this thread at any point.

And 8 hour job interviews and flying someone across the country for an interview process? I mean these are just not things that happen to normal working class americans. Why do I use the word "normal" ? Because we make up the majority of the country. We don't come home from work and work out/exercise because we're already beat from the touch physical day we had. Most of us don't sit behind a desk all day, and for the most part we don't care about politics because we know that we don't have enough money for the politicians to give a damn about our opinion and it doesn't matter anyways, because no matter what the politicians and government do, we have to survive anyhow. This is where we live and where we'll stay and we deal with what comes. And we sure as hell don't look down upon people who work at McDonalds. I've never worked fast food, but it's a job like anything else. And yeah, maybe the guy behind the counter is not as smart as me or some other people or maybe he just made poor career choices, or maybe god forbid, he's happy where he works! But the bottom line is, he's a person, just like me. I guess I should have expected this though and it was naive on my part. When someone has an extra $50k-100k to throw down on a car for a hobby even if its over a period of years, you can't really expect them to be properly grounded I don't think.

What do I know.

Mathius

[Mathius]

I didn't read this whole thread, but I wanted to offer my perspective on the original question. To be clear, I have no tattoos, mainly because I don't feel a need and don't know what I'd get anyway (probably a bit of fear of regret in there too). Anyway...

I personally have no issue with tattoos showing with folks I work with (either as a customer or associate or boss). But then again, I often make a connection with those people, both from the perspective of culture and from the perspective of being judged. I've spent my whole life being big and/or fat, and I've never exactly had a 100% conventional appearance (whether hair or clothing). The world is both judgmental and prejudiced, and I've experienced it first hand, and I understand that it's not always accurate.

I thought this was one of the most thoughtful and emphatic parts of this entire thread.


That said, I'm not surprised when others ("normal folks") do have hesitation working with folks with tattoos. We all know that tattoos have stereotypical associations based on historical and cultural examples. The problem is that those stereotypes are not completely inaccurate all of the time. Gang members, convicts, bikers (the non-law abiding type), etc. still wear tattoos and still do bad stuff. Why would any reasonable person want to possibly risk unnecessary interaction with someone that might possibly have bad or dangerous intentions or lifestyle? Seems reasonable to want to avoid such folks.

And again, I still think this has a lot to do with the fact of what you're saying, that people who aren't involved in this type of lifestyle or activities stray away from tattoos for fear of being categorized, which allows this stereotype to exist.


So what to do... if you're tattooed, don't be surprised or affronted when there are folks that don't wanna deal/work with you. Instead, reconcile yourself to accepting business/work from folks who aren't judgmental or are empathetic to how you present yourself, your work, or your business. It may be a small group, but they aren't isolated. If you demonstrate good work and talent, or whatever, you can hope they'll pass the word on and broaden your appeal to the larger pool of potential customers.

Which is the appeal of getting them. Not to prove anything, or to take a stand, or whatever, but because I know that I'm doing it for me and just living my life, and I'll know that the people who help or befriend me along the way are genuine. Even if they don't like me and they're being two faced, I'll know it's because their wary of my genuine talents and abilities because otherwise they'd probably just look down on me like most of the people in this thread seem to advocate.


But whatever you do, don't blame others for not sharing your views on tattoos or how they view those with tattoos. Instead, show them and change them.

I don't understand this statement. I'm not blaming anyone. I'm not upset. I think I mentioned several times that I can't get upset because I asked for opinions. I've actually ignored a bunch of comments that I thought would do nothing more than provoke an argument instead of responding to them like I could have. I don't know what else to say on the matter.

Mathius

[parsonsj]

When someone has an extra $50k-100k to throw down on a car for a hobby even if its over a period of years, you can't really expect them to be properly grounded I don't think.This is where you lose us. "Properly grounded", indeed. You're hanging out on a car site where the majority of people put enough emphasis on their cars to spend thousands of dollars on them, and you are saying we're not "properly grounded".

You decry the fact that others judge by appearances, and here you are judging us by how we spend our money. There's a word for that. I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader.

[Mathius]

This is where you lose us. "Properly grounded", indeed. You're hanging out on a car site where the majority of people put enough emphasis on their cars to spend thousands of dollars on them, and you are saying we're not "properly grounded".

You decry the fact that others judge by appearances, and here you are judging us by how we spend our money. There's a word for that. I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader.

I'm not judging anyone, I'm just putting things into perspective. I don't expect someone who puts $50k-$100k into their car to know how someone like me who's serving an apprenticeship and lives in a 1 bedroom apartment by himself goes about his daily life anymore than I know how someone who can afford to drop $10k-$20k on a project car lives their lives.

That's been the general point of this whole discussion, a point that you continually miss month after month is that YOU CAN'T ASSUME WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE THINKING OR HOW THEY LIVE THEIR LIVES.

John I honestly wish you'd just leave me the F alone unless you're moderating the thread. All you have done over the last year and half is jump in these threads and antagonize. You continually turn these things into a personalized pissing match where you attempt to make everyone in the thread think I'm some kind of idiot and it's getting real OLD. Just ignore me and don't respond to my threads. You'd be doing us both a favor.

Mathius

[DoABarrelRoll]

...What do you guys think as far as the American public's view on tattoos in a regular work setting? Have we progressed as a nation enough to wear they don't have to be hidden anymore? Obviously tattoos or any body modifications to the face still give a lot of people the vibe that you're a freak of some kind, and I'm not talking so much about the face, but what about say an arm sleeve or something on the hand?

What is your guys take on this?

Mathius

I got my first (and currently only) tattoo about a year after I joined the Navy. A (then) very close friend of mine didn't know I had one for the first 3 years I knew him. It is on my right deltoid, and my uniform (that I don't have to wear anymore) covered it.

In the US military, for the most part, no one cares. There has been a rash of stupid rules in the past few years, but those are created by the military politicians interested in PR and their political careers.

If you are working in a tight-assed conservative setting, they care. For some reason a tattoo threatens their fragile sensibilities. The same reason a gentlemanly beard is also shied away from.

People are stupid.

[Twentyover]

Get real, Mathius

You talk about flying in for an interview and multi-hour interviews as not being normal. True enough, if you want to stay blue collar and swing a hammer until the arthritis puts you into retirement, greet your customer with "Welcome to Walmart", or answer your customer with "Do you want fries with that?" I, and a good number of others am telling you they are normal for jobs like engineer or architect. We may have just a little bit more experience in careers considered "professional"

You are judging us, from your perspective. And what makes that perspective correct? I started out in a one bedroom apartment when I first got out of school, busted my nuts to pay off the student loan. A couple years later I bought a run-down house on the dingy side of town. I've lived paycheck to paycheck. I don't anymore.

Not normal? The hell I'm not normal. Just because It's not your experience doesn't make it not normal.

You asked if tats were ok in a regular work setting. It's been answered, if by 'regular' you mean occupations that are salary vs hourly or customer/management interface. I suppose something like an oceanographer may be able to get away with it, at least until they tried to get a study funded. Is it right? I'll say no,but that's the way it is.

You say "YOU CAN'T ASSUME WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE THINKING OR HOW THEY LIVE THEIR LIVES." Sure I can. We all do. It's part of the way we're wired

[Damn True]

I've been very patient with this thread and I have overlooked a number of very disrespectful and insulting comments. I'm done with that.




When I say I think people should be able to present themselves however they want and not be judged by it (assuming they are clean, etc.) and the other viewpoint says people should adhere to an unwritten dress code accepted by society, I can't for the life of me understand how I'm the close minded one? My viewpoint allows you to continue to wear a suit and tie if that's what you feel, while theirs restricts you to that attire.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Like it or not there are cultural norms, professional environmental norms and there are carefully crafted corporate cultures and brand images. It is not your place to opine on the corporate culture of an organization you seek to join, it is up to you to assimilate to that culture or find another place to work. You are not going to walk in the door and influence a corporation to discard their carefully crafted culture/brand as an applicant for an entry level position.

You just don't matter that much.

There's a dozen other equally qualified entry level applicants standing in line behind you with a measure of respect for the organization they seek to join. One of them will get the job.



And 8 hour job interviews and flying someone across the country for an interview process? I mean these are just not things that happen to normal working class americans. Why do I use the word "normal" ? Because we make up the majority of the country. We don't come home from work and work out/exercise because we're already beat from the touch physical day we had. Most of us don't sit behind a desk all day, and for the most part we don't care about politics because we know that we don't have enough money for the politicians to give a damn about our opinion and it doesn't matter anyways, because no matter what the politicians and government do, we have to survive anyhow. This is where we live and where we'll stay and we deal with what comes. And we sure as hell don't look down upon people who work at McDonalds. I've never worked fast food, but it's a job like anything else. And yeah, maybe the guy behind the counter is not as smart as me or some other people or maybe he just made poor career choices, or maybe god forbid, he's happy where he works! But the bottom line is, he's a person, just like me. I guess I should have expected this though and it was naive on my part. When someone has an extra $50k-100k to throw down on a car for a hobby even if its over a period of years, you can't really expect them to be properly grounded I don't think.

What do I know.

Mathius

Excellent question in that last line and an all too rare moment of clarity and introspection. Let's examine it for a second...

What do you know...about what is normal for the application and interview process for a professional position. Nothing.

What do you know...about the standards of conduct and appearance, the corporate cultures or brand identities of an engineering centric firm or the field of architecture? Nothing.

What do you know...about where the the respondents to this thread come from and how they got to where they are? Nothing.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Yet you don't hesitate for a second while sitting at your keyboard to insult, demean and disrespect those who do have a wealth of experience in these areas who have taken their time to educate you because we have a shared affinity for cars. Then you go ahead and impugn them further by implying that by spending their well earned money on a car they are somehow less "grounded" than yourself.

You've got a lot of nerve.

Where do you get off asking people about their experience and then impugning them as overly judgmental, unfair or closed minded when their experience does not agree with your uneducated opinion on how the professional world ought to be?

Where do you get off assuming the people who have responded to this thread don't have an appreciation for, if not experience in what you consider "normal" employ?

Where do you get off pontificating to the respondents to this thread on "what it's like down here with the rest of us"? What makes you think we don't know EXACTLY what that is?

Where do you get off telling the respondents to this thread that they don't work? From what experience do you make the assertion that their jobs aren't hard? That earning your way through school, through entry level positions, and to a position of enough relative experience that one would be justified in taking the time to educate another that their path isn't hard?

Where do you get off impugning the respondents to this thread as somehow less "grounded" than yourself? When it is you who clearly lack a firm footing in what is "normal" in the world you seek to join.

The overwhelming majority of respondents to this thread come from means not dissimilar to your own. We've had, as you describe, "normal" jobs. We've earned our way to positions where we have enough experience to share with someone such as yourself who seeks to follow a similar path. Where do you get off crapping all over them, their experience and the very professional environments that you claim to wish to pursue?

8hr interviews and flying cross-country for interviews ARE normal in the fields you seek to enter. As are a number of things that you've demonstrated being fundamentally challenged by. This keeps coming around:


YOU CAN'T ASSUME WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE THINKING OR HOW THEY LIVE THEIR LIVES. Here's where you are wrong, time and time again. That is the precise goal of an interview. If your resume/CV got to my desk I know you have the basic skills for the job or you would never have been asked to come in. The interview exists to determine if you will get along with my team. If you demonstrate a fundamental disregard for the corporate culture/brand image, who we are, what we do and what we stand for; I know exactly what you think and how you live your life and I know that you aren't going to fit in with the team. Don't throw out your tool belt because you won't be getting an offer letter and I'll be having my admin call in the next candidate.

That aside, you seem to have a hard time dealing with being told that you are wrong. It happens quite a lot. You need to work on that.

In any of the environments you seek to pursue it will happen early and often because you will be wrong. As an entry level employee with a degree in engineering or architecture you will have the absolute bare minimum of knowledge of the field. You won't know crap about crap and it will be up to you to absorb the shared knowledge of your peers and superiors who know more about the subject by virtue of their experience than you do.

You've demonstrated here that you aren't yet very good at dealing with such a scenario.

Regard the aforementioned in future dealings on this site and think about how they might translate to your future professional endeavors. If you spout utterly ignorant BS with no basis in experience or fact you will be called out on it. You can accept that and learn from it or you can move on.

Yes, there is a double meaning to that paragraph.

As Ken previously alluded:


Get whatever tattoo you want, wherever you want. It won't be the thing holding you back.

He makes an excellent point.

I shared a link to this thread with an acquaintance who is an architect. In fact he runs a firm. His comments follow. I suggest you regard them with at least as much thoughtful consideration as he demonstrated in taking the time to respond to your uneducated question.

In other words; He knows what he's talking about. You don't. Listen and learn.


I read through that thread, Damn you are spot on. And yes Architecture is a conservative industry. I would be very reluctant to hire a tattooed up architecture grad for production work let alone to meet one of my hard earned clients. People that want to decorate themselves outside of the standard often seemed shocked that the standard does not accept them without prejudice.

What is irritating to me, and the internet is full of examples, is when someone posts a solicitation for opinions and then craps up the thread arguing with any opinion that does not agree with their point of view. From that small sample of the poll taker I would say he has about zero chance of getting accepted to and then through an accredited architecture program. In architecture you need a thick skin and the ability to see a problem from multiple vantage points. You are asked to solve a creative problem that may have multiple good answers, present your solutions and accept criticism in the spirit it was given. One person will look at what you did and say it is beautiful and another will be on the opposite end. You are not going to change someone's mind on what beauty is by telling them that they are wrong.

If he does manage to get into a program and graduate by the end he will realize that the truth is not what he wants it to be.

[454bug]

I could be wrong, but I don't think I've called anyone any names in this thread at any point.


I've heard several people in this thread contribute that you have to be prepared to do business with people who have more conservative attitudes, but IMHO, those are the people who are in the wrong.


The fact that you would look at a person with visible tattoos or read a thread I wrote here on a board, and automatically form an opinion and bias as you put it against them is arrogant and illogical to the extreme. It's also judgmental.



When someone has an extra $50k-100k to throw down on a car for a hobby even if its over a period of years, you can't really expect them to be properly grounded I don't think.

You are wrong... In your 'round about way, you have "labeled" the respondents of this thread a few different "names" or "categories" of people. Just because a number of us may have more disposable income to spend on our cars than you do right now, does that make us not "properly grounded"?? Many people have hobbies they spend their disposable income on. A number of these hobbies are expensive. Our's just happen to be cars. Others may spend their money on golf or bass fishing. The cost of Country Clubs and Bass boats add up real fast as well...

I would wager the majority of the guys on this site started their lives without a silver spoon in their mouth. They worked hard all their life and a number of them have either climbed the corporate ladder or became owners of their businesses. I'm sure most of us have lived in a one-bedroom apartment or had a number of roommates to afford the rent... I, personally, lived in a 15' x 19' warehouse office (including the bathroom in that space!) for 3 years after a divorce and while spending all my money getting my business off the ground. You proceed to describe yourself as the poor workin' stiff that lives from payday to payday... Like you're carrying the torch for all the "normal" people... Do you actually think we all weren't the "normal" people for a large portion of our lives?? Just because we have escalated our livelihoods through hard work and perseverance, why would you try to charaterize that as a flaw with improper judgement toward the "normal" guy?? What makes you think that having an upper-level position with a corporation is not HARD work?? I routinely work 60-70 hours per week in my cush corporate job... with no chance for overtime pay... You do what you have to do to get the job done... There are plenty of guys working "normal" jobs that wouldn't think of working one minute of overtime without being compensated for it...

You have strayed SO far from your original question and have spent the majority of your comments on why you are correct in your line of thinking and the rest of us are wrong by answering your original question. In reading your rants, it makes me wonder why you are even attempting to go to school... Why in the world would you ever aspire to improve your place in life so you could be a like others here with larger incomes and desk jobs and not be "properly grounded"?? If that is what you think of the corporate world, maybe you shouldn't aspire to be an Architect or an Engineer...

I would suggest if you can't HEAR what everyone is telling you about the level of professionalism necessary to work the type jobs you are contemplating going into, maybe you should continue to carry the torch for the "normal" guy and abandon your proposed career path. That way, you would be free to dress anyway you liked and place tattoos on any portion of your body you seemed fit (face, arms, legs, knuckles, etc.). For good measure, put big holes in your ears drooping to your shoulders, a bull ring in your nose, and bolts in your eye lids. If you're going to express yourself, don't hold back... get after it!

In addition, if you can't see how or why anyone in their right mind would actually spend the kind of money we spend on our cars, maybe you should just spend your time on another type of website... just a suggestion... :naughty:

[454bug]

My sister has her nose pierced, as did my ex girlfriend. I have my ear pierced in 3 places. I have female friend's with eyebrow piercings and one who even has a metal stud surgically implanted in the back of her neck somehow that allows her to screw an earing into it. I interact with these people on a fairly regular basis, I get along with them, and I have no issues with them. But I can understand why others would be repulsed by it, because excess or simply a bad choice can certainly hurt your appearance. And lets be honest, tattoos aside, that's what our society cares about more than anything is outer beauty. :squint:

First off, you slam everyone for not agreeing with you about the ability to wear tattoos anywhere you want to and be accepted in the corporate world. In the next breath, you admit that your friend's excessive piercings are over the top...

It's amazing how you have no problem drawing the line at what should be acceptable and what's not.. but the rest of us can't give you a more realistic "line" of what's appropriate in the corporate world.

Can't you see the irony in that??? :dunno:

[shmoov69]

I'm not judging anyone, I'm just putting things into perspective. I don't expect someone who puts $50k-$100k into their car to know how someone like me who's serving an apprenticeship and lives in a 1 bedroom apartment by himself goes about his daily life anymore than I know how someone who can afford to drop $10k-$20k on a project car lives their lives.

That's been the general point of this whole discussion, a point that you continually miss month after month is that YOU CAN'T ASSUME WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE THINKING OR HOW THEY LIVE THEIR LIVES.

John I honestly wish you'd just leave me the F alone unless you're moderating the thread. All you have done over the last year and half is jump in these threads and antagonize. You continually turn these things into a personalized pissing match where you attempt to make everyone in the thread think I'm some kind of idiot and it's getting real OLD. Just ignore me and don't respond to my threads. You'd be doing us both a favor.

Mathius
Dude, on the first paragraph I must say to get real! I know that most of the people on this site are "working stiffs". There are some big money people also, but they are not the "norm". I am a freaking roofer, and have been for 20 years! Think that is a glamourous Cush job?!?! 50-60 hours a week average....BEFORE I got to management...now it is 60-70 hours a week! How much more "grounded" do I need to be to fit in your "image"?!? GET THE CHIP OFF YOUR SHOULDER!

second paragraph. You are right, you can't assume what people are thinking or how they live their lives....you get that?!? YOU can't assume!! Quit being a hypocrite because you have been doing it the whole thread! GET THE CHIP OFF YOUR SHOULDER!

third paragraph. I have seen several posts that I remember and you just like to argue (you're not the only one tho!). But it is their sandbox, not yours (or mine!) and if you (or I) don't like the way they play, then take your toys to another sandbox and play. But it will be the same in that sandbox until YOU GET THE CHIP OFF YOUR SHOULDER!!!

[Mathius]

I've been very patient with this thread and I have overlooked a number of very disrespectful and insulting comments. I'm done with that.

Again, disrespectful from your perspective. I'm not even going to bother responding to very ridiculous statement in that rant of yours.

Why don't we start with this?

You have the balls to tell me I'm out of line for what you perceiving as me _judging_ other people's experience when one of your fellow moderators has pretty much called me a liar for giving mine? And now YOU tell me my experience doesn't mean crap? Whatever dude.

Second:

normal:
1 something that is normal is how you expect it to be, and is not unusual or surprising in any way

2 someone who is normal is like most people in the way that they think, behave, or
look

I can use the word "normal" because "normal" people are the people I see every day. Every time I walk into a store, stop at a garage to get an oil change, stop to get gas, go to a job site, stop in at the shop, go to a restaurant, stop at a bank, etc. etc. Get the picture yet?

I GUARANTEE the number of people working these common jobs that I see every day outnumber the people who get flown out of town for a job interview.

Third.

If you don't understand the english language, don't take it out on me. You continue to make assumptions and even state that this is right and proper about what I"m thinking. Who do you think you are exactly that you think you can read my mind and know what I'm thinking?

I may misspeak sometimes because I'm certainly not perfect, but I try to say exactly what I mean. If I say, IMO something is arrogant, that's not the same thing as calling someone arrogant. If I say I don't think someone is properly grounded, that's a statement of opinion, it's not an accusation.

And if I start a thread asking about the general acceptance of the business world in regards to tattoos, that sure as hell doesn't mean I'm looking for YOU to get stuck on the architectural and engineer thing just because I mentioned it's a possibility for me. I have a year and a half before I finish my current training credits. Then I have about double those credits just for an associates degree. A lot will change between then and now, so I don't need to listen to you list a bunch of specifics about two job titles and then tell me I don't have a clue what I'm talking about.

You know what? I know exactly what I'm talking about because I'm making a blanket statement about my own personal experiences and I'm not talking about some damn architect job or engineering job.

Mathius

[wmhjr]

I'm not judging anyone, I'm just putting things into perspective. I don't expect someone who puts $50k-$100k into their car to know how someone like me who's serving an apprenticeship and lives in a 1 bedroom apartment by himself goes about his daily life anymore than I know how someone who can afford to drop $10k-$20k on a project car lives their lives.


Mathius, get off your high horse and stop. That comment above really makes my blood boil. Pal, I got where I am (wherever that is) by starting out EXACTLY like that. No, let me correct that. I had less, worked harder and sacrificed a heck of a lot more than that. For a lot less money. A LOT less money. What you've put into perspective for me is that your perspective is incredibly self-centered. I mean no insult, and I mean that directly and honestly. If that comment IS insulting that's up to you. You make assumption after assumption about people, business, the world and you label others because they don't share your point of view. Yet, you seemingly haven't done a darned thing that might validate your perspective. Go start a company. Put your life on the line. Hire other people. Have your entire financial condition be based on your ability to inter-relate with others not of your own personal culture. Maybe then you'll have a leg to stand on. Until then, you're just slamming others when you don't have any skin in the game yourself, and you have zero experience. But you're sure willing to make assumptions.

For you to assume that because people put money into their cars they just aren't "grounded" or aren't "normal" is the HEIGHT of ASS(UMPTIONS).

I'll be honest with you. I was kind of giving you some leeway until now because I figured "heck, he's young. I was young and naieve once". But these recent comments make me think quite differently.

Let me make one thing crystal clear to you. Instead of changing my mind or making me question whether my reluctance to consider things like very visible tattoos is a bad thing, you've only made me even more convinced that I've been correct all along. Now before I say what I'm going to say, let me in full disclosure state again that you may well be a great guy who I could share a beer with. BUT, based on the comments in this thread, I would never, ever consider hiring you for any position. My earlier comment about people demanding to display their "different appearance" regardless of corporate etiquette possibly showing that the person may have either an inability to compromise, or a selfishness that could compromise commercial interests turns out to be very accurate.

This thread really ought to be locked. It's clear to me that the OP has no interest whatsoever in hearing any response back other than what he'd like to hear, and frankly I'm tired of seeing people get labeled and accused of being "insensitive" or whatever. Frankly, any time I need lectured by somebody about something they have absolutely no knowledge of or experience with, I'll stop at my nearest junior high school.

[Damn True]

Mathius,

I'm being completely honest here. I'm laughing my everloving kiester off at this entire thread. You amuse me...

But, I'm drawing the line at you insulting other members of the board who have gone out of their way to advise you regarding your potential career paths. I, and many others took time to thoughtfully answer your question as a means of guiding you toward making a sound judgment that will, should you pursue it, forever impact your professional life. You have time and again insulted, disrespected and impugned the character of the respondents to this thread. I'm not going to put up with that.

The following will serve you well if you are ever able to drop the tool belt and move into a professional environment. You will make mistakes and you will say the wrong thing from time to time. We all do. You need to learn the following: "Own your words. Apologize for them, learn from them or GTFO. "

It is disrespectful to argue with the content of an answer to a question where the individual has no experience on which to base his argument.

That is a fact.

YOU pitched a fit when YOU were told by people with far more experience in a professional environment than yourself told you what the perception of your potential tattoos might be. You further impugned them in a myrad of ways, even going so far as to question their grounding and cast them as somehow less than hard working and less aware of the lot of someone like yourself. That is insulting and disrespectful. That is a FACT and it won't be tolerated.

Come on man, you are way out over your skis.

Don't apologize to me. I neither need it nor do I want it. But YOU owe an apology to the people who YOU insulted in exchange for thoughtfully offering you the benefit of their knowledge and experience.

[zbugger]

Alright, this one is done.