Help w/ set up. 68 Camaro still pushes a lot (understeer)

[Chad-1stGen]

Hey guys,

You would think that with two hits off the crack pipe (aka track days) in as many weekends I'd be sated. But like any true addiction I want MORE!

My car still probably has a lot left in it as far as differential between my car's ability and my own as a driver, but I'd really like to try and make some tuning adjustments to reduce the amount of under steer. I need your guys help.

Current set up:
68 Camaro at or near stock weight (have done nothing really to lighten weight and if anything have added sound deadening and a decent stereo, etc).

Front suspension:
Hotchkis springs PN 1907F 2" drop rate: 600 lbs
Hotchkis valved bilstein shocks
Hotchkis front sway bar, PN 2207F 1 1/8" hollow bar, not sure of anything like rate
SPC adjustable upper control arms
SPC lower control arms
AFX tall spindle (with arms fully shimmed still another 1" or so drop)

Rear suspension:
Hotchkis leafs PN 2407 (no rate listed on Hotchkis site that I could find)
Hotchkis valved Bilstein shocks

Tires:
Nitto NT-05 (get more than twice the life out of the rear tires than the front currently)

Alignment:
Caster: 5.5* /6* (road crown)
Camber ~-2.5*
Toe 1/16" in

I have a fair amount of pics and video up of recent track days.

Here is a pic from a recent track day of the front suspension under load:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/04/23346894018_large-1.jpg

Halp! I want to go faster and I want my front tires to last a little longer...

Time for rear sway bar? Time for different suspension components? Tempted to sell these parts and get a subframe that I can run wider front tires on and is all matched components.

Also, about ready to measure my AFX spindles and make sure I didn't get shipped short spindles by mistake...

[Matt@BOS]

Chad, have you talked to Carl to see what he is running? Since he is running Hotchkis parts, I was wondering if you're setups might be similar.

In any case, it might not be a bad idea to run a rear bar. These cars love to understeer, and as it is, you might be asking the front to do too much work in the turns, which would (I believe) end up with you overloading the front tires.

This site is great because it has a wealth of knowledgeable people, who I'm sure will chime in, and be able to provide better insight than myself, especially in regard to technical advice.

That said, the one bit of advice I feel confident in offering is to tell you to come out to an event where a suspension guru like David Pozzi or John Hotchkis, etc. is on hand to drive your car and get some first hand impressions. A car can push for a number of reasons, so while having a knowledgeable person tell you over the internet to add a rear bar is one thing, having them behind the driver's seat is invaluable.

I'm glad to see you've been out having fun with the car recently, and I hope you get something figured out,

Matt

[CarlC]

What are the tire sizes Chad?

[David Pozzi]

Looks like you have a good setup, I don't see anything wrong with it. Is the front end pretty light? What size tires & wheels?

[Gitter Dun]

First thing, how much time did you spend monitoring tire temps and air pressure? Are your tires wearing more on the inside or out? Secondly, these cars are known to be nose heavy. Have you corner weighted the car? I'm not going to get into tires yet because I think there is about a 1/2" in width difference between 255's and 275's.

I didn't see a rear bar listed in your rear suspension set up so I would say thats an easy way to get started. Another thing I didn't see was adjustable shocks.

I would start from there.

[zbugger]

I'd also like to know what the tire sizes are. Also, go ahead and try an adjustable rear bar. If you don't like it, take it off. But you may see a benefit in your case. Running wider front tires I doubt would help you any right now. Adjustable shocks are also worth looking into, especially since you do track the car.

Oh, and how do you like that tow hook? Any input on it? Any good pictures of it?

[MrQuick]

I agree, rear bar may help......Chad are you sure about that camber?

what is the height on the springs you are running? Maybe more travel?

https://www.pro-touring.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=45998&d=1302592828

[Gitter Dun]

I agree, rear bar may help......Chad are you sure about that camber?

what springs are you running? Maybe more travel?

https://www.pro-touring.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=45998&d=1302592828

I agree. That camber doesn't look like -2.5. Also, tire looked like it was rolling over.

[monteboy84]

A laser temp gun for the tires would help a bunch on checking to see if your camber and pressures are correct, but just looking at how much more rear tire you have than front, I'd throw a rear bar at it to try and strike a balance with that. If your car is pretty well stock in terms of weight and front/rear percentages, the high front percentage will give you understeer on entry.

-matt

[Chad-1stGen]

What are the tire sizes Chad?


Looks like you have a good setup, I don't see anything wrong with it. Is the front end pretty light? What size tires & wheels?

Tire sizes are:
245/40/18 on an 8" rim with 4 7/8" BS
275/40/18 on a 9" rim with 5.5" BS



First thing, how much time did you spend monitoring tire temps and air pressure? Are your tires wearing more on the inside or out? Secondly, these cars are known to be nose heavy. Have you corner weighted the car? I'm not going to get into tires yet because I think there is about a 1/2" in width difference between 255's and 275's.

I didn't see a rear bar listed in your rear suspension set up so I would say thats an easy way to get started. Another thing I didn't see was adjustable shocks.

I would start from there.

Not a lot of time on air pressure. I'm not sure what to do exactly. I've played around more in the past and the last two track days not at all. The fronts are rolling over slightly as can be seen in the pics at 35-37 PSI so going lower didn't seem like a good idea.

No rear bar currently.


I'd also like to know what the tire sizes are. Also, go ahead and try an adjustable rear bar. If you don't like it, take it off. But you may see a benefit in your case. Running wider front tires I doubt would help you any right now. Adjustable shocks are also worth looking into, especially since you do track the car.

Oh, and how do you like that tow hook? Any input on it? Any good pictures of it?

I like the tow hook a lot. Knock on wood, i have not needed it but it's a little more peace of mind out on the track. Install is easy and the bar is a spring loaded removable deal which is nice though I tend to leave it on full time. I will look for some pics I took of it and post them later.


I agree, rear bar may help......Chad are you sure about that camber?

what is the height on the springs you are running? Maybe more travel?

Well the front springs are rated at a 2" drop, arms 1" drop and spindle 7/8" drop however, I've added 2" worth of height increase to the arms so total it's supposed to be about 2" drop but I believe the arms are mislabeled and advertised and that they still are contributing about 1" to the drop for a total drop of about 3". The ride height is slightly too low. Though I rarely am bottoming out, I can tell when I do in my quarter panel vids because I also have slight rubbing and will see a puff of blue smoke off the tire when I do. I'm thinking about getting new lower arms to correct the ride height.

Also, I'm not 100% sure on the camber. I had the alignment shop set up my street camber at -0.75* and added two 1/8" shims for a total of .25" in equal amounts front and rear to the upper arm. Using a digital level i'm getting readings of between -2.5* and 2.75* static. Its quite a bit of camber to the naked eye sitting there, however this is also what makes me want to measure the spindle to make sure I didn't get ripped. In the pics my camber at compression should of gone up but it doesn't look that way. Would love to work with someone in the area with a home alignment to help me learn the ropes :)


A laser temp gun for the tires would help a bunch on checking to see if your camber and pressures are correct, but just looking at how much more rear tire you have than front, I'd throw a rear bar at it to try and strike a balance with that. If your car is pretty well stock in terms of weight and front/rear percentages, the high front percentage will give you understeer on entry.

-matt

Funny you mention the laser temp. I FINALLY remembered to bring mine last Sunday. But of course I only remembered to use it once and that was after the car had too long to cool (several minutes after parking in the pitts). I had readings of 119* pretty evenly across the front tire (inner, outer, center) but of course only measured the front right like a noob and on the clockwise track the front left is getting more work.

Thank you all for the help so far!

[killer69]

the tall spindles are 8 5/8 over all height.
your car dosen't look like it has anywhere near 4" of drop. i'm just sayin.
i would double check your camber 2.5 deg is a TON i only run 1.5 on my nova

what model of tire are you using

[Mkelcy]

Chad: I'm not seeing the camber gain I'd expect. Remember this thread? https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?62153-what-uca-to-use-with-gstrand-mod&p=597928#post597928

IIRC, the OLC uses the ATS tall spindles for camber correction, but shows a lot more camber gain than your picture does. I'd look at alignment and check the spindles. I have a set of the tall ATS spindles here if you need a reference for what they should be.

[Chad-1stGen]

the tall spindles are 8 5/8 over all height.
your car dosen't look like it has anywhere near 4" of drop. i'm just sayin.
i would double check your camber 2.5 deg is a TON i only run 1.5 on my nova

what model of tire are you using

Thanks Blake. Total drop is closer to between 2.5" - 3" not 4". The lower arms allow you to add spacers of 1" for a ride height change of 2" but I think they start off 2" lower not the 1" advertised.

I will measure the spindles when I get home tonight.

Tires are Nitto NT-05

Thank you

[Chad-1stGen]

Oh I remember that thread all to well Mike. In fact I didn't click the link cause I'm 99.9% sure of which one you refer to :)

I was wondering on camber gain too. Gonna measure the spindles tonight.

[MrQuick]

I agree with Blake.

To be honest, most of the cars we have set up in the past run 1 to 1.5 degrees. They tend to react differently with anything over 1.9.
We like to use the suspension components to increase camber during compression. You can have too much camber that the tire will loose contact patch and skid across the track. Exagerated a bit, yes but its a tunable problem. Since you do have SC&C arms you can play with adjustments.

Please, lets see some pictures of the tow hook. ; )

[Nessumsar]

By just looking at your picture it seems that the rear is unloading a lot of weight in the inside tire. To me that screams that you could use a rear bar; as it would help in to ways, keep more weight on the inside rear, and transfer less weight to the front left.

Would still have to figure out what is up with the front end geometry. I hope your measurements go well.

[parsonsj]

Rear sway to start. Change one thing at a time. Many have reported that a rear sway bar leads to a loose (oversteer) setup, but that means you need a smaller rear sway or a bigger front sway bar.

Leaf springs are tricky since they have a high roll center, which is why many claim you don't need a rear sway bar.

jp

[David Pozzi]

When checking camber referencing off the tire, avoid placing the level on the tire bulge at the bottom.
Most first gens with larger tires on the rear need a rear bar. This need is more pronounced with sticky tires..If you have adjustable shocks, you can stiffen the rears & sometimes do without a rear bar.

[Gitter Dun]

So all things mentioned here it's all going to be about how deep you want to get into it and I think everything mentioned keeps you from going over the edge for now with rear sway bar and adjustable shocks. I've been using the Hotchkis rear sway bar for years now and have no complaints. For the money, the QA-1 single adjustable shocks can't be beat IMO.

The only reason I would go with 275's up front is for tire rotation. It helps keep the costs down. If you do go to other wheels, research for the lightest wheels. Another reason I stick with 17's is for the weight of the rims and tires. rotational weight savings is huge.

Pick up an air tank and a good air pressure gauge. If you cant tell where to go with air pressure by feel pick up a chalk stick and chalk the entire edge of your tires before each sesson and monitor the wear pattern. The chalk wear will help you see if you are over or under inflated. You want you tires to wear evenly across the face of the contact patch. It looked like you could have used about 3 more lbs in that picture. I've never used the NT05's so I dont know much about them but this is what I do with the Toyos.......Max air pressure rating is 40 lbs so I shoot for 38 lbs hot. The tires usually grow 6-7 lbs when hot so I will put 31-32 lbs cold.

Are you going to make it out to Buttonwillow July 30th?

[Chad-1stGen]

I'm seeing a trend here with the rear bar comments. Now I just need to find someone with a Hotchkis TVS kit who will sell me the rear bar since most don't run them with just TVS parts. I've seen em on here from time to time.

Gaetano. I have same/simliar thoughts on 275's up front so I can begin rotating my tires between front and rear. I let Marcus at SC&C talk me out of trying this and getting the speedtech lower arms that I called up to order from him. He pushed me over the edge in choosing the SPC lowers over speedtech because they are supposed to actually have geomtry changes to them to keep the tire centered in the wheel well with high caster set ups which helps looks and rubbing. However, with the drop / ride height / rubbing problems I'm having and with the idea of running a wider front I'm for sure leaning towards finding me some lower speedtech arms (or TCI subframe if I go crazy :p).

Chalk idea sounds good. Will have to try that. Once I eliminate the potential for having received the wrong spindles I will pursue the rear bar as step number 1 I think before moving on to shocks. This is because I would think shocks help most with bump and transition but longer sweeping turns like Buttonwillow's riverside the shocks are not going to contribute as much right? Or am I off base here?

Thanks again to everyone for taking time to provide me valuable feedback/input.

[Gitter Dun]

You neeeeeeed adjustable shocks. Adjustable shocks will compress more at a lower adjustment and give you more compression, travel, and time for you to get back in the throttle and shift the weight off the front which is what it looks like you need up front to help you tune. The rear sway bar will help keep from more weight transfering up front. For example, in the picture you are taking a right hand corner. The weight transfer forces want to pick up the rear passenger side and push them to the front driver side. The rear sway bar will help keep the rear passenger side planted and not shift as much weight to the front driver side. Capeesh?

[Chad-1stGen]

When checking camber referencing off the tire, avoid placing the level on the tire bulge at the bottom.
Most first gens with larger tires on the rear need a rear bar. This need is more pronounced with sticky tires..If you have adjustable shocks, you can stiffen the rears & sometimes do without a rear bar.

Just wanted to say I checked my camber using a piece of 90* angle aluminum stock held against the rim with the angle finder against that. It's lowtech but I at least cut it short enough to not touch the tire :)

[ROBS6T8]

I'm really liking this thread! Keep the info coming. I'm learning as well.

[senor_camaro]

I would look into the rear sway bar and tune the camber. if possible try to lighten up the front. I would suggest carbon fiber or fiberglass for the track. you would be surprised how much weight the stock hood, fenders; etc add to the overall weight. lighter wheels and rotors, every little thing counts, also the springs and shocks come into play as well. with coilovers you could save yourself some weight too!

[GeoffP]

Subscribed - I've learned that my suspicion is right in that my car does the exact same thing. My 68 has the entire TVS setup installed including the rear bar. No track days under my belt, but I have auto-x'd it several times. In my case, I think I made it worse by putting NT-05's on the rear and didn't match them up front (yet). I am looking forward to see what you try (and find what works).

[Chad-1stGen]

Subscribed - I've learned that my suspicion is right in that my car does the exact same thing. My 68 has the entire TVS setup installed including the rear bar. No track days under my belt, but I have auto-x'd it several times. In my case, I think I made it worse by putting NT-05's on the rear and didn't match them up front (yet). I am looking forward to see what you try (and find what works).

Have you done anything about the camber gain suspension geometry? Such as the Guldstrand Mod, tall upper BJ, AFX spindle etc? The TVS kit does not address this. If you haven't already, go back and look at the link Mike posted on page one and you will see the carnage that can happen driving aggressively on the track without addressing the camber gain issue in first gen suspension.

[CarlC]

OK, my 2-cents.

Getting the shocks matched to the spring rate and intended driving makes a ton of difference. Mine does not have adjustables, just the as-supplied Hotchkis valved Bilsteins. Could there be a bit more in the car if I spent a bunch more time tuning/testing? Maybe, but it works pretty darn well, for me, the way it is.

The rear bar is more of a tuning feature. If there is a ton of understeer other fixes should be attended to first.

Did you re-check the toe-in after adding more shims? Currently the Camaro has -2.75* camber, 5.5 caster, 0 toe if memory serves, and the G-mod. Yeah, it's a lot of camber, but I drive the car enough on the track that the tires wear pretty well. I gave up on trying to keep a street and track alignment.

Do I remember a post you made Chad about running the same size tires on all four corners? I can't afford not to rotate tires, so I stuffed the biggest tire up front possible, even if it meant loosing a bit of turning radius. With an aftermarket subframe this is a moot point, but for a stock subframe 275/285 is about the max. With a front-heavy car the front tire is going to be the weakest link.

[Chad-1stGen]

I just measured the spindles. They were the 8.5" that Blake indicated. So that isn't the issue.

I haven't rechecked the Toe Carl. I will have to do that.

I also forgot that the AFX spindle lowers the steering arm which is great for bumpsteer but bad for any attempt to fit a 275 "matched" front tire to the front. I seem to recall 8.5" is the widest rim you can use.

Anyone near Long Beach want to help me with alignment settings lol?

[Chad-1stGen]

Here is another pic from my track day of two days ago.

I know it doesn't look like I have a ton of negative camber but look at the angle of the front wheel compared to the rear. There is some negative camber happening IMO

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[LM7_67]

Fascinating thread. Giving me a lot to think about considering my car has a fairly similar set up.

[67zo6Camaro]

I just measured the spindles. They were the 8.5" that Blake indicated. So that isn't the issue.

I haven't rechecked the Toe Carl. I will have to do that.

I also forgot that the AFX spindle lowers the steering arm which is great for bumpsteer but bad for any attempt to fit a 275 "matched" front tire to the front. I seem to recall 8.5" is the widest rim you can use.

Anyone near Long Beach want to help me with alignment settings lol?


Sure, come by and I will set you up. I have a few ideas that may help you. PM me and I will give you my number. Im by Long Beach State.

Brett

[CarlC]

I remember fitting my 9-1/2" rim at Tylers shop way back and it did just barely fit. An 18" rim would make things better. If you ever make it up my way we can test fit one on your car.

You may want to double check the bump steer.

[TCI Engineering]

Hi Chad,
Hotckis stuff is a tuned combination, If you are coming to super chevy at the end of the month i will have a
pyromitter to check your tire temps you can use, 2.5 - camber seems excessive if you do not have much camber gain it might need it. Tire temps will help idenify that. I broke my leg skiing a week ago but i will be in vegas. If you make it out i will be happy to give my give my 2 cents. I would consider the rear bar it sound like that what the car wants.

Thanks, Sal

[Rod]

I broke my leg skiing a week ago

Stick with driving Sal!!

[GeoffP]

Have you done anything about the camber gain suspension geometry? Such as the Guldstrand Mod, tall upper BJ, AFX spindle etc? The TVS kit does not address this. If you haven't already, go back and look at the link Mike posted on page one and you will see the carnage that can happen driving aggressively on the track without addressing the camber gain issue in first gen suspension.


No, I really need to (already knew that). I'm planning to do the G-mod this summer before RTTH if I decide not to tear mine apart for rust repair.

[Chad-1stGen]

I remember fitting my 9-1/2" rim at Tylers shop way back and it did just barely fit. An 18" rim would make things better. If you ever make it up my way we can test fit one on your car.

You may want to double check the bump steer.

Well I guess I can just check my 9" rear on the front. I will try and do that tonight. What do you mean by double check the bump steer? How do I do that?


Hi Chad,
Hotckis stuff is a tuned combination, If you are coming to super chevy at the end of the month i will have a
pyromitter to check your tire temps you can use, 2.5 - camber seems excessive if you do not have much camber gain it might need it. Tire temps will help idenify that. I broke my leg skiing a week ago but i will be in vegas. If you make it out i will be happy to give my give my 2 cents. I would consider the rear bar it sound like that what the car wants.

Thanks, Sal

Thanks Sal. I probably won't be able to make it but I appreciate the offer. Sorry to hear about your leg. I hope you heal up quickly so you can beat on the car pain free. part of me is tempted to scrap the stock subframe and get one of yours.


Sure, come by and I will set you up. I have a few ideas that may help you. PM me and I will give you my number. Im by Long Beach State.

Brett

Brett, thanks for the offer that is awesome. I will PM you.

[Nessumsar]

Chad, do you know the BS on your rear rims? If they are <4.75" you should be able to run them on the front; they will be very close to the steering arm, but should clear.

[killer69]

when i had NT-05 on the Nova 275/35-18 on the front we would start with the tire pressure at 34 it would come up to 38 and then reduce them bact to 34 and they would stabilize that day it was 70 deg and that was on a shor tight track that is fairly fast front straight about 120 mph and that seamed to work well.
but that is with our tire gauge. yours may read different, if you try to keep the tread temp consistant across that is a good way to help tell if the psi is correct. altho the camber will also induce extra heat to the insid of the tire

[Flash68]

We have fairly similar setups I would say.... I am running the 255/315 NT-05 combo.... put on the Hellwig 3/4" adjustable rear bar and it's done very well for us.

[Chad-1stGen]

Thanks Flash-68.

Anyone have thoughts on the Hellwig adjustable bar versus the Hotchkis. The Hellwig is more than 50% cheaper, however it doesn't have the cross bar that the Hotchkis does. Reading online I've found concerns about the older style Hotchkis and the Hellwig bars tearing out of the rear frame rails. I'm guessing that is why the super expensive Hothckis kit comes with the cross bar.

I've already rewelded my front subframe because the swaybar keeps cracking the frame where it mounts. So I'm a bit leary of the Hellwig though the price sounds nice.

Thoughts?

[Gitter Dun]

The older style Hotchkis bar tore the area where it mounted to the body. I know because it happened to me. The new set up with the cross bar will avoid that.

I dont have any experience with the Helwig bar but at 50% less it sounds like the way to go. Especially if it is adjustable. See if Flash(Dave G) can post some photos. There should be an easy solution to the Helwig mount area to keep from doing any damage.

[Nessumsar]

Chad,

See if you can find a sotck 3rd gen rear sway bar in a junk yard. I want to say they are 5/8" solid, and should be the right proportions to fit under your car. You could use it as a basis to work off of. I will see if my friend has one laying around.

[ROBS6T8]

When I spoke to Marcus (SC&C), he told me to throw the AFCO rear bar I had away and to use an adjustable one such as the Helwig. So when I get to that point, that's the route I'm going.

Robert

[barraza]

Couple of thoughts:
-Others have covered the rear bar, which I agree with. You can't tune with something that isn't there, put one on and see. I found there was no way to get my car to turn the way I wanted without one.

-2.5 or more degrees of camber seems excessive. With too much camber, it is possible to start sliding the tire before it ever reaches it's maximum loading, ie it never loads enough to flatten out and obtain max grip.

Low profile tires are much more sensitive to camber than higher profiles. It would be relatively easy to have a couple of setups to test next track day. Measure how much toe adjustment you need by adding camber shims, and see how much difference you feel between sessions. You should be able to make a preset camber/toe adjustment in 10 min.

Check to see how much travel you have in the front when you are in a turn. It looks pretty low, and you could be resting on the travel bumper. If you are, the effective front spring rate goes way up, greatly increasing understeer

[CarlC]

With -2.9*/+5.1* and tire pressures at 32/27 the temperatures across the tire tread were very consistent for autocross. 34/32 works well for road course.

[Flash68]

See if Flash(Dave G) can post some photos. There should be an easy solution to the Helwig mount area to keep from doing any damage.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/04/DSCF3253-1.jpg


When I spoke to Marcus (SC&C), he told me to throw the AFCO rear bar I had away and to use an adjustable one such as the Helwig. So when I get to that point, that's the route I'm going.

Robert

Marcus helped Hellwig design the new 3/4" adj bar (#5824) and Dave @ Hellwig told me it's their most popular seller now FWIW.

[Chad-1stGen]

Thanks Dave, Any pics of how the links mount to the frame/body?

[Gitter Dun]

Dave, I'd like to see how the sliders were done on your car also, can you get me some pic's?

[Flash68]

Thanks Dave, Any pics of how the links mount to the frame/body?


Dave, I'd like to see how the sliders were done on your car also, can you get me some pic's?

I thought I had some more pics of it, but I'm not seeing them. I'll keep looking and hopefully show you something.

[ROBS6T8]

Thanks Dave, Any pics of how the links mount to the frame/body?

I downloaded the intructions from the Hellwig site. They drill completely through the frame rails and attach with some very large washers. Probably to keep from collapsing the frame rail! http://www.hellwigproducts.com/customer-care/download-instructions/ you might have to put the part number 5824 in the search window.

[67zo6Camaro]

I've been putting off commenting and giving my opinion because as we all know there are lots. So, here it goes with no disrespect to the locals and regulars on the site here. The bottom line, is traction is a combination of weight vs. contact patch. The first issue I noticed right away was your front tire size vs. the standard front end weight of a 1st gen camaro. 245 is narrow for what your driving style is starting to occomplish. Yes you can hide front traction issues with rear sway bars, front alingment ect... A combination of all will produce a car with better traction, Start with the first problem... change to a bigger tire, make sure alignment is correct, move weight back off the nose, and use sway bars and adjustable shocks to fine tune the suspension. Key word is sway bars and shocks are for fine tuning not fixing problems.

If I were to attack this issue, I would weigh the car for a front weight number, use weight ratios and tire size calculations to help determined amount of weight that needs to be transfered to the rear. Start calculating spring rates into the equations, and then add in shock dampening and sway bar sizing. There are several sway bar charts that give corner weight numbers as compared to bar sizing and sway bar end lengths. Yes this takes a little time, but if you are hooked and the track is your high, then the extra time spent on car set up will pay off big time for the track times and ease of driving.

So, in my opinion, you have more going on here than just a front alingment and a rear sway bar fix. The correct fix is going to be a combination of all.

That is my 3 cents.
Chad, come drive my car. I spent some time making big efforts to balance out my car. Or ask to drive Jon's Nova to get a base line.

[Chad-1stGen]

It's funny you say that Brett,

I was in the garage most of the morning working on the car. swapped back to my street pads, replaced the alternator and my master fuse that I had to bypass AND test fit my rear tires up front.

I tried to fit a 275/40/18 Nitto NT-05 tire on a 9" rim with 5.5" of backspacing up front.

There are two definite clearance issues and one possible.

1) The tie rod hits the rim. Wouldthe highly sought after "short" steering arms fix this?
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/04/23346894040_large-1.jpg

2) Second problem is that the rear of the tire rubs against the rear fender where circled in blue (hard to see).
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/04/23346894043_large-1.jpg

3) Third potential issues is that at full drop and near full lock the upper control arms gets pretty dang close to the rim (no pic of this)

[killer69]

my nova has AFX spindles on it and i run 18x 9.5 with 6.5 BS using the Unisteer rack and steering arms and have no clearance issues. have a look at what David P did to the steering ara on Onelap. cut shorteneds and rewelded. BUT that also went along with raising the inner tie rod end location, so it is not as simple as just shortening the steering arm. but i woud say either way your going down that road. you could look at switching to a heim joint end and getting rid of the tie rod end.

[shep]

less back spacing will fix problems 1 and 3 and may help problem 2 as well.

[j-rho]

A small spacer in front would get the wheel off the ball joint. Just make sure wheel studs are long enough to retain adequate lug nut engagement.

A shorter tire would help your rub issue when turning. That 275/40-18 is extremely tall - over 26.5". A 265/35-18 would be very close in width, and over 1.2" shorter. A 285/30-18 would be killer - wider and shorter, most are under 25" tall. The shorter sidewall tires up front also help with steering responsiveness.

[LM7_67]

Stuffing a 275 tire on the front of a 1st gen is definitely a tight fit. On my car, there is more clearance around the steering arm, but less around the tip of the UCA, due to having no "drop" in my L&H spindles. There is actually a slight witness mark on the inner hoop of my front wheels where there has been contact between the UCA and the wheel. The tires do rub on the rear of the inner fenders at some steering angles, but it hasn't done much besides polishing the heads of the bolts. Also, steering radius has been reduced from about 2.5 turns l2l to about 2 l2l. That may seem like a lot, but it's never really caused a problem, just have to swing wide when pulling into parking spots.

[Chad-1stGen]

my nova has AFX spindles on it and i run 18x 9.5 with 6.5 BS using the Unisteer rack and steering arms and have no clearance issues. have a look at what David P did to the steering ara on Onelap. cut shorteneds and rewelded. BUT that also went along with raising the inner tie rod end location, so it is not as simple as just shortening the steering arm. but i woud say either way your going down that road. you could look at switching to a heim joint end and getting rid of the tie rod end.

Thanks Blake. What is the camber gain supposed to be with an AFX "tall" spindle? Do the Speedtech lower arms move the lower BJ forward at all? Can you give me the measurements for them too? I'd like to compare to my SPC lowers.


less back spacing will fix problems 1 and 3 and may help problem 2 as well.

This isn't possible. If anything I would need more BS to deal with rubbing at the top of the fender.


A small spacer in front would get the wheel off the ball joint. Just make sure wheel studs are long enough to retain adequate lug nut engagement.

A shorter tire would help your rub issue when turning. That 275/40-18 is extremely tall - over 26.5". A 265/35-18 would be very close in width, and over 1.2" shorter. A 285/30-18 would be killer - wider and shorter, most are under 25" tall. The shorter sidewall tires up front also help with steering responsiveness.

For the spacer, as noted in my reply to shep less BS means problems with the way the top of the fender will clear.

For the shorter tire that is something to think about. Not totally excited about 30 sidewall but maybe it would be enough on a 285 tire.


Stuffing a 275 tire on the front of a 1st gen is definitely a tight fit. On my car, there is more clearance around the steering arm, but less around the tip of the UCA, due to having no "drop" in my L&H spindles. There is actually a slight witness mark on the inner hoop of my front wheels where there has been contact between the UCA and the wheel. The tires do rub on the rear of the inner fenders at some steering angles, but it hasn't done much besides polishing the heads of the bolts. Also, steering radius has been reduced from about 2.5 turns l2l to about 2 l2l. That may seem like a lot, but it's never really caused a problem, just have to swing wide when pulling into parking spots.

EDIT, it's late on Sunday nvm the first part of my reply lol. What arms are you running?



Also, Just got back from Brett's shop. The front left tire has 2 5/8* of negative camber static. You guys looking at my pic still think the camber looks off? I would think upon compression the front should get to 3+*

Thanks

[Gitter Dun]

Chad, looks like you've been bitten by the track bug pretty hard this season. I've seen your car in person and it is too clean to get into cutting wheel wells and such up. It may be a good time to start looking into aftermarket sub. Just sayin'.

Alternative would be to talk to Carl C but I would think he needed to cut wheel wells for clearance.

This may not help because the '69 is a little wider but here goes anyways......

1) I run a stock front spindle with 17x9.5 275/40's 5.5" backspace with no issues. I have had many people try and talk me into an after market spindle but I personally cant see why I need one. The front of my car sticks like glue.

2) I rubbed not at the fender but at the wheel well in the same location and had to cut the wheel well for clearance.

3) No issues with rubbing upper Global West control arms. I am a big fan of these control arms. I think they nailed the geometry and there is no need for any sort of Guldstrand mod.

[David Pozzi]

I believe the 69 has about 1.5" more wheelwell room. We put a 275 up front on the One Lap Camaro, we had to limit turn angle & you really notice it. Speed tech high clearence upper arms have better rim clearance than the global west uppers we had.
We had a fair F/R balance with a 255/315 combo but it took a special Hellwig 1" rear bar to do it. Keep in mind the OLC has a Watts link & virtually no extra roll restance like leaf springs have. It's a lot easier to balance handling when F/R sizes are more equal. I'd go with a new front sub & put 275's up front. Braking & corner entry will be improved greatly.
David

[ROBS6T8]

Sounds like the track bug can get quite expensive. Maybe I won't be out there in July Gaetano! lol

[LM7_67]

EDIT, it's late on Sunday nvm the first part of my reply lol. What arms are you running?


SpeedTech high-clearance uppers, stock lowers. Also, I'm running 275/40/17s on a 17x9.5 '97 Camaro SS wheel with a 1.5" spacer.

[68sixspeed]

Sounds like the track bug can get quite expensive. Maybe I won't be out there in July Gaetano! lol

you may want to consider crack or some other drug, it would be cheaper... :)

[Chad-1stGen]

You guys crack me up lol.

So I'm looking at the Hellwig rear 3/4 sway bar and they make a solid bar and a hollow bar, PN's 5824 and 55824 respectively. Which would you recommend?

Thanks

[MrQuick]

Check with Hellwig tech for recommendations based your set up. I'd go with the hollow, both will have similar performance but the weight loss of the hollow would be a free plus. Do you have prices for both?

Also can you measure your steering arm for me please?

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/04/camaro_outersteer_arm_short-1.jpg

vince

[Chad-1stGen]

Hey Vince,

Its about $230 for the solid and $260 for the hollow bar so not a big deal in price. I figured the solid was a higher rate bar but maybe not. Interesting that Amazon lists prices in the $150-180 range for those bars but you have to wait two months to get the parts lol...

When I was at Brett's place last night we were talking about steering arms and were eyeballing some measurements but I wasn't 100% sure what distances to measure and it was getting late so I didn't jot down any measurements. What should I measure exactly? Just the distance between the tie rod hole and rear bolt hole? Fromr reading David's site he was talking about sizes from ~5.3" to 5.8" but I wasn't sure (and havent' gone back to look yet) what those distances represented exactly.

I need to take a moment and publicly thank Brett. This is such a great board. I've met some great people on this site and have received help in a variety of ways. Last night being no exception. Even though carbuilding is a business for Brett and despite that business being on hold as he personally remodels his house he took time out of his busy schedule to take some measurments of my car's alignment to help a fellow PTer he had never met before. That is pure awesomeness!!

I also have to add that his 67 vert is extremely nice and clean with a lot of custom made parts that he's done himself. Very cool guy! I look forward to seeing some of the work turned out when Brett gets back to car building.

Kudos Brett and thank you!

Interesting to note that the alignment on my passenger side was off a bit. Originally it has 0.5* more caster over the drivers for road crown though at Brett's both sides measured out at 5* Caster. Camber on the passenger side measured out at ~1 3/8* that with my camber shims means it is much less than the 0.75* static I originally had. So i do need to address the camber side to side.

[CarlC]

Any toe numbers? No, not camel.

[67zo6Camaro]

you may want to consider crack or some other drug, it would be cheaper... :)

That made me laugh, but so true.

[67zo6Camaro]

Chad, thanks for the shout out.... This hobby is full of passion, and passion spills over to other peoples projects. I look at your quest for more as an extension of my enjoyment to solve problems.

And based on the great amount of knowledge and experience here at PT, there are lots of great solutions to choose from....Now Im kinda interested in what direction you're going to take. Do we need to send you to "TRACK-AA" meetings. Lol.

Anytime Chad, and the offer extends out to others.

Brett




I need to take a moment and publicly thank Brett. This is such a great board. I've met some great people on this site and have received help in a variety of ways. Last night being no exception. Even though carbuilding is a business for Brett and despite that business being on hold as he personally remodels his house he took time out of his busy schedule to take some measurments of my car's alignment to help a fellow PTer he had never met before. That is pure awesomeness!!

I also have to add that his 67 vert is extremely nice and clean with a lot of custom made parts that he's done himself. Very cool guy! I look forward to seeing some of the work turned out when Brett gets back to car building.

Kudos Brett and thank you!

.

[67zo6Camaro]

Ok, good to know. We did this in a estimate state and came up with +-5" for Chad's (ok edit 4/18/11, I may have measured to center line of spnidle... Can't remember now. Chad may chim in otherwise we need to take another measurement). Therefore, using a different steering arm and/or modification to an arm would get more clearance.

Thanks Vince.


Check with Hellwig tech for recommendations based your set up. I'd go with the hollow, both will have similar performance but the weight loss of the hollow would be a free plus. Do you have prices for both?

Also can you measure your steering arm for me please?

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/04/camaro_outersteer_arm_short-1.jpg

vince

[Flash68]

You guys crack me up lol.

So I'm looking at the Hellwig rear 3/4 sway bar and they make a solid bar and a hollow bar, PN's 5824 and 55824 respectively. Which would you recommend?

Thanks

Call Dave Wheeler at Hellwig, or Mark @ SC&C... Mark helped Hellwig develop this bar. I bet he recommends the 5824 for your setup.

[67zo6Camaro]

I just looked at a few of my Sway Bar charts. It can depend on the maker of the sway bar and wall thickness for the hollow bar, but here is an example from the SCP chart:

A 37 1/2 wide SOLID sway bar that is +-15/16" with 8" long arms has a corner load rating of 263 lbs.
A 37 1/2 wide HOLLOW sway bar that is +-15/16" with 8" long arms has a corner load rating of 160 lbs.

Now one thing I did notice is that some of the charts show the smaller sized bars (around 3/4") solid or hollow with much closer corner load ratings.

I would suggest finding out the corner rating of the front bar you currently have and also the front and rear weights. Then you can apply the ratio of nose weight to your current bar ratings. This will start to give you a base line that you will need to compensate for on the rear. In addition, tire sizing will also have to be considered (front compared to the rear) before matching up the rear bar. Lol.

I know.... most just guestimate with starting at the 3/4" rear bar first. But I truely think variations like weight, tire size and spring rates create enough differences that the correct range (bar size) could be effected. Funny... bla bla bla.

Brett


You guys crack me up lol.

So I'm looking at the Hellwig rear 3/4 sway bar and they make a solid bar and a hollow bar, PN's 5824 and 55824 respectively. Which would you recommend?

Thanks

[DarkoNova]

Check with Hellwig tech for recommendations based your set up. I'd go with the hollow, both will have similar performance but the weight loss of the hollow would be a free plus. Do you have prices for both?

Also can you measure your steering arm for me please?

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/04/camaro_outersteer_arm_short-1.jpg

vince

Does anyone make repros of the short steering arms? I don't remember exactly how long mine were, but I know they're longer than those. Probably closer to the 5" that Brett got.

[ROBS6T8]

you may want to consider crack or some other drug, it would be cheaper... :)

True.. but I would like to keep my teeth. I already see enough of that crap!

This is a great thread and a great site. Kudos to Brett for the help and everyone that has voiced their opinion. I've learned a lot and I'll keep learning.

Gaetano, this money talk hasn't scared me away... yet! lol I'll be there in July (Buttonwillow) and I hope to meet some more PTers at that time. It will be a great time.

[Vegas69]

I own both Helwig bars. There is only 15 in/lbs difference between the two. (According to Helwig) I've got them both laying on my bench. I couldn't use either with BFG's and a 295/335 combo. I've got the R888's back on now and anticipate putting the hollow bar back on. Apples and Oranges. I've got a G Bar out back. If Gordon is running his solid in the weakest hole or even middle, you may be better off with the hollow for adjustability.

I came up with a custom mounting solution since I wasn't happy with the mounting set up. I used 2 steel plates, shoulder bolts, and C5 adjustable end links. It wasn't cheap or easy.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/04/0028-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/04/0041-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/04/0094-1.jpg

[ROBS6T8]

Wow! Thanks for the info and pics Todd.

[Chad-1stGen]

Todd,

Cool idea on reinforcing the mounting. I like it.

[DFRESH]

Man, I feel badly. Just because I am going, you didn't have to worry about doing all this to the car.

[Flash68]

If Gordon is running his solid in the weakest hole or even middle, you may be better off with the hollow for adjustability.

I came up with a custom mounting solution since I wasn't happy with the mounting set up. I used 2 steel plates, shoulder bolts, and C5 adjustable end links. It wasn't cheap or easy.


For reference, I am running the middle hole and haven't touched it since initial install.

Todd - I didn't realize you did that to your sway... that is nice stuff. Will now be interesting to see what's the best bar setting for the R comps back on there.


Man, I feel badly. Just because I am going, you didn't have to worry about doing all this to the car.

Doug, how's that fresh 283 runnin?

[Mkelcy]

I came up with a custom mounting solution since I wasn't happy with the mounting set up. I used 2 steel plates, shoulder bolts, and C5 adjustable end links. It wasn't cheap or easy.

Nicely done! I'll be copying that.

[Vegas69]

I'd venture to say that you may need to mount the links inside the frame with leaf springs. My fuel lines forced me outside the frame. Mock it up to make sure it will work for you if you decide to go down that road. The drilling was the trickiest part. With the shoulder bolts, you need smaller holes on one end. I think I used 1/8 and 3/16 plate so the shoulder bolts would have enough thread engagement. I just designed them and had them cut by my water jet company. Then you can use the plates for a template for drilling. Clamping them to the frame wouldn't be a bad idea. Once you have one hole drilled, install a bolt to keep everything in alignment.

[Chad-1stGen]

Yeah I have fuel line routing issues as well. Not sure yet how I'm going to reroute and figured I'd go back under the car this weekend. I have the supply line up the inside of the pass frame rail and the return line down the inside of the drivers frame rail lol...

[David Pozzi]

The outer steering arm measurements on my page are from spindle center to to tie rod hole. The photo above is misleading.
5.25" is as short as they get. No one makes the short ones. There is a repro medium length available.
David

[67zo6Camaro]

Yep I screwed up as edit shows above. I did measure from the spindle center to tie rod center and got +-5" rough estimate. So with actual precision measurement it would most likely be the 5.25" you speak of.

Thanks
Brett


The outer steering arm measurements on my page are from spindle center to to tie rod hole. The photo above is misleading.
5.25" is as short as they get. No one makes the short ones. There is a repro medium length available.
David

[Norm Peterson]

Also, Just got back from Brett's shop. The front left tire has 2 5/8* of negative camber static. You guys looking at my pic still think the camber looks off? I would think upon compression the front should get to 3+*

Thanks
You probably do have 3° or so - relative to the chassis. It is kind of hard to tell where truly plumb was on the car when it was at rest.

But if you're visually referencing the wheel plane to being perpendicular to the pavement, the camber in your picture has more than static setting plus camber gain happening. For the outside front tire, deduct the chassis roll, and deduct something like 1°/lateral g for tire deflection effects. Chassis + tire effects combine to give you what a protractor and a true head-on picture would show (slightly less than what the front 3/4 view looks like).

If you're referencing to the rear wheel plane, since that wheel will also have about 1°/g of axle roll due to tire deflection back there you'd only deduct the chassis roll.


Norm

[6'9"Witha69]

Are these 5.25" or the medium length ones"

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/1967-69-Camaro-Steering-Arms,24953.html

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/04/91034912_T-1.jpg

[Mkelcy]

Are these 5.25" or the medium length ones"

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/1967-69-Camaro-Steering-Arms,24953.html

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/04/91034912_T-1.jpg

Nick: Comparing the pictures - particularly the distance from the stop pad to the tie rod eye - they look like the medium length arms.

[David Pozzi]

CPP sells those too, they say they are medium length, probably 5.75"

[j-rho]

Anybody bought these? Are they as fast a ratio arms as can be bought?
http://www.heartbeatcity.com/store/product/21538/Camaro-Steering-arm--PS-fast-ratio-pr--67-68-69/

[6'9"Witha69]

Then there are the L&H customs arms:
http://www.lhkustoms.com/products.htm
Pricier @ $325/pair
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[Gitter Dun]

I've never been on L&H's site. Thanks Nick. It looks like they have a nice selection of options as far as spindles and steering arms go. As far as bumpsteer goes, can we agree that the tie rod tying into the steering arm should be level?

[6'9"Witha69]

Do you mean the tie rod itself should be in plane with the LCA? If so, yes. It is the mismatch between motion 'swing' (I don't recall the technical term here") between the steering components and the suspension components which cause bumpsteer. So having the joint for the Inner tie rod match the location of the LCA bushing, the total length of the tie rods assembly be eaquivalent length to the LCA, and the outer TR joint match the LBJ would be "ideal".

[Gitter Dun]

Thats what I thought and it's always good to hear it again for confirmation. Now my definition of bumpsteer would be hitting a bump on the road and the wheel bouncing and/or skipping. Does that sound correct?

[Nessumsar]

"Bump Steer" is the amount of Toe change as the suspension (de)compresses. You are correct as to wanting the steering and suspension to travel on the same plane, but only if the components are of the same length (pivot to pivot). If they are of unequal length (like in our cars), it can be beneficial to have them on different plains (as they are stock).

The LCAs on my Nova being moved up/out, the LCA and steering rod is now on the same plane, but the are of different lengths; I have some pretty nasty bumpsteer. Now if I can extend my steering rod to the same length as my LCA, my bumpsteer will deminish greatly. It won't go away completely though, since the wheel leans inward do to the camber gain.

Its really a big balancing act.

[John Wright]

Want to see lots of bumpsteer in action?... visit my local dragstrip...lots of cars there with the front tires toeing in and out as the front suspension goes through it's motions.



edit: vid of bumpsteer gage in use to show the amount of toe in/out
Stp9kHAGfXQ


another vid
VzxPWrdPlt0&NR=1

cool vid here where the bumpsteer is pronounced enough to really see the action
gKJAukSZRT0&NR=1

[Gitter Dun]

Ok, I get all that, but how does it feel when rubber meets the road. Is the steering wheel constantly moving left to right as you drive down the road as it toes in and out or is it more of a skip or bounce off a bump in the road?

[John Wright]

Gaetano...if both sides compress at the same time equally, you may not really feel it, however if one side moves up while the other is still fairly static...yes, you can feel it turn the wheel in your hands.

[Gitter Dun]

Thanks John, great display of info as usual.

[Nessumsar]

Gaetano...if both sides compress at the same time equally, you may not really feel it, however if one side moves up while the other is still fairly static...yes, you can feel it turn the wheel in your hands.

John pretty much has it. My Nova feels twitchy going over a rough section of road, almost like its "tramlining" real bad.

[Gitter Dun]

I've been trying to figure it out also. My car is twitchy on rough roads also but never skips or bounces off of bumps. Not sure if twitch is from bumpsteer or stiff springs and 100 treadwear 275/40's. It handles great on the road course up front without any understeer so I'm really not sure if I should mess with it.

[Nessumsar]

Twitchyness can be caused by your Toe setting as well. Toe-in typically helps with straight line stability, but reduces reponsiveness; while Toe-out tends to help with responsiveness, but looses some stability.

[Gitter Dun]

Thanks Jon, I think its set up for 1/16 toe out. It's a dedicated track car and seems fine in that environment so I dont think I'm going to mess with it for now. It would be nice to get a hold of one of those bumpsteer gauges some day though.

[Norm Peterson]

Ok, I get all that, but how does it feel when rubber meets the road. Is the steering wheel constantly moving left to right as you drive down the road as it toes in and out or is it more of a skip or bounce off a bump in the road?
What John said.

You might also notice it as having to keep sawing back and forth on the steering wheel to stay on your chosen line through a longish corner if you encounter enough heaves in the road to keep the suspension moving.


Norm

[MrQuick]

Thanks Jon, I think its set up for 1/16 toe out. It's a dedicated track car and seems fine in that environment so I dont think I'm going to mess with it for now. It would be nice to get a hold of one of those bumpsteer gauges some day though.

Dude I've driven your car...you have plenty of it. LOL

This is from a 69 Camaro we did back in 05. Base from ATS.

[Gitter Dun]

What John said.

You might also notice it as having to keep sawing back and forth on the steering wheel to stay on your chosen line through a longish corner if you encounter enough heaves in the road to keep the suspension moving.


Norm

Definitely dont feel it in the sweepers.

[Gitter Dun]

Dude I've driven your car...you have plenty of it. LOL

This is from a 69 Camaro we did back in 05. Base from ATS.

Vince, the only reason I question the bump steer is from when you brought it up after driving my car. We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

[MrQuick]

don't make me break out the gauges....LOL

[Gitter Dun]

don't make me break out the gauges....LOL

Gauges dont make lap times. I say we need to put a wager on this. I'm not eating $1100 in spindle costs for nothing. Let me know when your ready to test and tune again.

[Norm Peterson]

Definitely dont feel it in the sweepers.
There have to be some smooth heaves in it or else you probably wouldn't.


Norm

[MrQuick]

Gauges dont make lap times. I say we need to put a wager on this. I'm not eating $1100 in spindle costs for nothing. Let me know when your ready to test and tune again.

I can only put installation labor cost up but B would have a cow......I had a set you could have tried out too. How's that sway bar working? :moon:

Is that all gauges? Results of a tire gauge can make a huge difference. :P

2nd week of May should be good.

[monteboy84]

Gauges dont make lap times.

Not directly, but gauges make the cars that make lap times :smoke: Just razzing ya

-matt

[Gitter Dun]

I can only put installation labor cost up but B would have a cow......I had a set you could have tried out too. How's that sway bar working? :moon:

Is that all gauges? Results of a tire gauge can make a huge difference. :P

2nd week of May should be good.

May 14th and 15th I'll be at Thunderhill. We'll get lap times to start with current set up then I'll drop the car off. If we get spindles installed soon enough NCRC will be at Thunderhill on the 28th.

Will the spindles except C4 calipers?

Not positive on sway bar yet. Cars a bit loose. Just a bit. Maybe a little more front bar will fix that. Whats the difference in rates between the DSE and Global West?

I should have 315's on the back of this thing by May 5th so It's best to wait and see as far as sway bars go.

[zbugger]

Not positive on sway bar yet. Cars a bit loose. Just a bit. Maybe a little more front bar will fix that. Whats the difference in rates between the DSE and Global West?

I should have 315's on the back of this thing by May 5th so It's best to wait and see as far as sway bars go.
Don't forget, we wanted to soften up the rear shocks a bit too. That, and the 315's will make a difference.

[Flash68]

Thanks Dave, Any pics of how the links mount to the frame/body?


Dave, I'd like to see how the sliders were done on your car also, can you get me some pic's?

Here is the last picture I found of my Hellwig bar install.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/04/DSCF31341-1.jpg

[Dave@Hellwig]

Here are some pics of how we mount the sway bar to the subframe. We put a spacer into the subframe to strengthen it and allow the bolt to be tightened. The spacer can be welded in to make it more secure if desired. We have not had any failures with this mounting method.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/04/396441697-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/04/396441567-1.jpg

[AintQik]

L&H is good people, I run his spindles and arms.
I have a set of stock "fast" arms if you want to try them out and see how they feel. If you like em keep em. If not send em back.

[killer69]

May 14th and 15th I'll be at Thunderhill. We'll get lap times to start with current set up then I'll drop the car off. If we get spindles installed soon enough NCRC will be at Thunderhill on the 28th.

Will the spindles except C4 calipers?

Not positive on sway bar yet. Cars a bit loose. Just a bit. Maybe a little more front bar will fix that. Whats the difference in rates between the DSE and Global West?

I should have 315's on the back of this thing by May 5th so It's best to wait and see as far as sway bars go.

If your talking about the AFX Spindle (and i hope you are lol) then NO the C4 calipers will not fit. EVEN the L&H adaptor is only for C5 if i am not miskaken all the parts are C5 compatible and direct bolt on.

Thunder Hill is a great we were there in Novamber and the Nova was running 2.09 laps. No idea how that compares would like to know???

[Nessumsar]

Without doing any searching RJ, are C5 brakes a bolt-on proposition with the L&H spindles? I've been intrigued by their price and would really like a stronger-than-stock piece to handle my 315 front tires.

[Gitter Dun]

If your talking about the AFX Spindle (and i hope you are lol) then NO the C4 calipers will not fit. EVEN the L&H adaptor is only for C5 if i am not miskaken all the parts are C5 compatible and direct bolt on.

Thunder Hill is a great we were there in Novamber and the Nova was running 2.09 laps. No idea how that compares would like to know???

Thanks, I didn't think they would which means I'll have to hold off until I can afford brakes.

2:09's sound fast in a Nova at Thunderhill, congrats. I ran 2:08's the first session on a cold track and then broke a spark plug. It was probably already cracked before I got their and didn't figure out what the prob was till I got home. I think I was probably good for high 05's or low 06's if I continued to run. With recent changes I'm hoping for 2:04's.

Yeah, I'm curious about comparisons also. What set up in Nova?

[killer69]

This was our first time there with brand new Falken azena tires. really cold day and rain for the last run.
it has the full Speedtech track time sub and torque arm. 500hp ls2
i am sure it would be faster with a bit more track time. but if i remember 138mph at the end of the front straight.
Very nice track and facility, if it wasnt a 16 hour drive i might join you.

[Gitter Dun]

Sounds like Speedtech puts together a nice package. I'm running Global West uca's, stock lowers, and Global West rear leaf's. I just added a watts link about a month ago and am currently in the process of tubbing for some 315's. Dyno showed 620 at crank from first gen small block.

We are same speed at end of straight but I feel like I should be at 145. I need to work on diverting the air coming through the grill and have some ideas just need to put some money and time into them.

Next time your headed to Thunderhill let me know.

[LM7_67]

Without doing any searching RJ, are C5 brakes a bolt-on proposition with the L&H spindles? I've been intrigued by their price and would really like a stronger-than-stock piece to handle my 315 front tires.

No, C5 brakes do not bolt on to just the L&H spindle. Their spindle has mounting points for stock-style brakes. However, L&H does make a conversion bracket that allows C5 calipers to bolt to the spindle, and a hub for the rotor.

[AintQik]

Yes, what he said :)
Not to get off subject but if I were to do this again I would have liked to have gone into it with the knowledge I have now. That is, spindles and brakes really need to be chosen together. For example, I'd like to run an ATS spindle to use the flush type bearing, but I'd have to get rid of the Wilwood brakes I have that mount to a stock type spindle. Initially, I was going to run a stock spindle so I got the brakes that would work there. Then ran into some issues and switched to a better spindle, but had to find one that would work with the brakes I already dumped a ton of money in. FWIW, the only reason I prefer the ATS spindle is so I don't have to have that stupid bearing cap sticking through the wheel. Otherwise the L&H is top, top quality.

[Nessumsar]

No, C5 brakes do not bolt on to just the L&H spindle. Their spindle has mounting points for stock-style brakes. However, L&H does make a conversion bracket that allows C5 calipers to bolt to the spindle, and a hub for the rotor.


Yes, what he said :)
Not to get off subject but if I were to do this again I would have liked to have gone into it with the knowledge I have now. That is, spindles and brakes really need to be chosen together. For example, I'd like to run an ATS spindle to use the flush type bearing, but I'd have to get rid of the Wilwood brakes I have that mount to a stock type spindle. Initially, I was going to run a stock spindle so I got the brakes that would work there. Then ran into some issues and switched to a better spindle, but had to find one that would work with the brakes I already dumped a ton of money in. FWIW, the only reason I prefer the ATS spindle is so I don't have to have that stupid bearing cap sticking through the wheel. Otherwise the L&H is top, top quality.

Just what I needed to know, thanks guys. Looks like I'll be searching for a set of the L&H spindles.

[killer69]

Sounds like Speedtech puts together a nice package. I'm running Global West uca's, stock lowers, and Global West rear leaf's. I just added a watts link about a month ago and am currently in the process of tubbing for some 315's. Dyno showed 620 at crank from first gen small block.

We are same speed at end of straight but I feel like I should be at 145. I need to work on diverting the air coming through the grill and have some ideas just need to put some money and time into them.

Next time your headed to Thunderhill let me know.

yea 145 sounds like a better number as my car is only 500 hp at the crank. and we were playing with a GT3RS and he was on Pilot sport cup tires andwas at 145 at the end of the straight.
blocking off the grill made a differance of 2 mph on my Drag race 69 camaro so it would probably make a differance on the road course also.

[Chad-1stGen]

Well the new hellwig rear sway bar is installed and ready for its debut at Streets of Willow Springs tomorrow. Since this will be my first time running CCW I won't be able to compare lap data but when the car pushes as hard as mine has been I'm sure seat of the pants feedback will be quite significant.

I went with the 3/4 hollow bar. However, given that I have a fuel pump and supply line in the way on the frame rail on the passenger side as well as the return line and brake line in the way on the drivers side I took the car to Brett with Fab53 (Fab53.com) to work his fabrication magic.

Following shots were taken with a phone inside a garage so not the greatest quality. Brett may have some better pics when it was on his rack.

Here is the finished product. Sorry the car is filthy underneath due to my rear end weeping a bit of fluid. Not a whole lot to tell from this shot other than I now have a rear sway bar lol.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/05/23346894050_large-1.jpg

Following shots due a bit better job of showing the custom install Brett did.

Shot of the custom bracket looking at the passenger side frame rail from the outside. You can make out the rearmost hole in the bracket and kind of make out the center hole. There are 3 holes in the bracket total that line up with the 3 adjusting holes in the sway bar itself. This allows for use of short end links without altering the geometry when adjusting the rate of the bar.

Brett knows how to lay down some sick welds!!
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/05/23346894056_large-1.jpg

Here is a hot of the drivers side frame rail looking towards the outside. Again you can see that there are multiple holes in the bracket to compliment the adjustable holes in the bar.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/05/23346894057_large-1.jpg

Here are a few shots of the passenger frame rail where the fuel pump is routed. Plenty of room along the frame rail still!!
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/05/23346894054_large-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/05/23346894053_large-1.jpg

Final shot from directly underneath the passenger side frame rail. You can see Brett even used rosette welds for greater strength.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/05/23346894055_large-1.jpg

As you can see custom end links from heim joints were used in lieu of the end links supplied by Hellwig.

I did paint the brackets today with Por15 but as I only had time for one coat I may have to crawl under and try and apply a second coat later (I know you are supposed to topcoat within ~5 hours).

Can't wait to test this bad boy out tomorrow.

[MrQuick]

looks good chad, be sure to give us an update on the performance please.

[Vegas69]

I thought about something similar but my rails are covered in Shutz and I knew I couldn't match it. That will loosen you up...

[ROBS6T8]

Thanks for the update and pics Chad. Did Brett make those brackets? Yeah, that weld looks like a stack of dimes laying on their sides!! Nice! Looking forward to your performance updates.
Have fun. Hopefully the rain doesn't make it down there as it did up here!

[67zo6Camaro]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Yep Chad was right... I do have some pictures.

As Chad mentioned, most rear sway bar set-ups would have fitment problems with then end connection to the frame. So, I offered to help as I like makeing brackets. They are quick and easy typically and you get to stand back and enjoy the finished product.

The Hellwig bar was delivered with the car. I was surprized how light this hallow bar was as compared to other bars I have installed.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
The kit comes with all the hardware, but we needed to come up with a different attachment meathod for the bar ends.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
The biggest problem was going to be the fitment around Chad's fuel pump and supply line on the pass side frame rail. In addition he has a return line on the opposite driver side frame rail. This made it necessary to make custom brackets.

[67zo6Camaro]

Typically with making custom brackets and/or anything, I like to make a template first out of my old office manilla folders. This allows for quicker design testing and fitment prior to spending time on the metal.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
After some measurements I came up with a two part bracket that needed to be welded together prior to intallation.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
This is the 1st part to the design that uses rod ends for the sway bar attachment to the frame. I also decided to thread this piece to remove the backing nut that would have not fit behind the plate between the frame.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
This is the bracket part 1 and 2 welded together. Rosette hole will be drilled to assist in adding a weldable surface area to the frame.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
You can see the threaded portion in this pic.

[67zo6Camaro]

At this point, although Im not done with fabrication, I can at least start to mock up the bracket to make sure it fits and that the sway bar lines up with the adjustment holes.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
I like to use clicos to help hold parts in place during testing.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
The finished sway bar bracket with the hardware prior to completing the welding to the frame rails

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
You can see I also like to use clicos to hold parts in place for welding. Notice the holes for rosette welding to the inside of the frame. One complete weld was given along the outside of the frame combined with the inside rosette weld and the end welds.

[67zo6Camaro]

Yep we are done. I know this thread went off in a different direction for awhile, but this is the completion of the custom brackets Chad asked me to make. I went along with Chad today to The Streets of Willow Springs for testing. The sway bar set-up did fix most of his pushing issues and also added an extra level of control to the car. See his post under Report Streets of Willow 5-15-11.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
Oila it's complete.

Chad, thanks for letting me work on your car.

[email protected]

[LM7_67]

wow, those are awesome brackets Brett!

[Chad-1stGen]

looks good chad, be sure to give us an update on the performance please.

Ok here is a non sophisticated driver's review of the changes after driving one day on streets of willow springs track in CCW direction which I've never driven before. If I was good at this I wouldn't of started this thread in the first place, please keep that in mind :)

One word describes the addition of this bar to my car: "transformed" I think my pals here at Pro-Touring.com really nailed it that the next thing my car was crying out for was a rear bar. Overall I felt the car was much easier to control and it felt much more balanced. At some points I still plowed pretty bad but I was aslo able to induce oversteer which I almost never did before. I felt that as a driver I had a lot more control over how the car would behave.

As Todd has mentioned in a few posts, having this bar will loosen the rear up a lot and he even commented on the one video I've uploaded that the rear looks too loose. I bought the adjustable bar for a reason and it may be the car would benefit from softening up the bar by goingt to the outword hole from the middle hole. However, I'd much rather drive my car with the bar in the middle hole than no rear bar at all. I will explore this in the future when weather conditions are more favorable and when I can spen some time on a track that I have previous lap times from and familiarity with.

I felt like I had a lot more options when trying to set up the car before entering a turn and even upon entering a turn. My car NEVER responded well to throttle input efforts to balance the car or control understeer. Except maybe at very slow speeds which if it didn't just plow worse it would snap violently from understeer to oversteer proving very difficult to control.

With this bar I was able to induce oversteer with throttle control significantly easier AND more importantly control that oversteer much easier. Please remebmer, I only have 280hp/330tq to the rear wheels which is peanuts compared to many on this board.

Also, if I entered a turn too hot, with the additon of this bar, I was able to snap the rear end around via an induced 4 wheel drift where before I would be stuck slowing down speeds enough to stop the understeer and continue on my way.

I look forward to tuning with the bar and exploring the new handling charactertics the bar has provided.

One final note. Its hard to say if I am a faster driver with this bar than before. I never drove this track configuration before. I do have two data points of some relevance. One, I ran a best time of 1:31 which was roughly one second faster than my previous best going the other direction with multiple track days that direction. I heard that the overall times are supposed to be pretty similar each direction. Two, in my fastest lap of the day after passing a car and entering a turn a bit hotter than I had before I pulled a sustained load of 1.05+ g's where before that I've never broken the sustained 0.95g. Looking at the data file I hit a peak of 1.07g's. It's probably not 100% apples to apples as I had the outside influence of passing another car forcing me to exceed my confort zone but it's still freeking awesome to have my car acheive that magica 1.0+ G number. EDIT; It occured to me later that the spot I measured 1.07g's at was also the "bowl," a 17* banked turn. Comparing other sections of the course my lateral g's are similar to pre bar.


I thought about something similar but my rails are covered in Shutz and I knew I couldn't match it. That will loosen you up...

Yes the rear has loosened up but overall I believe for the better. For autocross it probably is too loose but for highspeed road course I really liked how much better balanced the car felt. I will be exploring the softer setting and report back when I do.


Chad, thanks for letting me work on your car.

[email protected]

Brett you are too modest. This is the part where I say thank you and you say you are welcome ha ha.

[MrQuick]

One thing you could have done was drive the track with one side disconnected to get a good base line.




Good to hear the bar put you in the right direction....now for the fine tuning.

[Chad-1stGen]

One thing you could have done was drive the track with one side disconnected to get a good base line.




Good to hear the bar put you in the right direction....now for the fine tuning.

Actually, Vince I was going to do just that and brought the jack and jackstands so I could get safely under the car to do it and any other adjustments I might make. However, it was relatively cool and I just didn't want to lay on the ground. Next time.

[arue333]

Just found this thread, Great read! Ode to the search function! lol
I'm always amazed by the level of knowledge available for free on this form... Thanks guys!