1st Gen vs 2nd Gen Sub Frame whats different?

**OneslowZ28** · 06-13-2005

I was wondering what the differences are between the 1st and 2nd gen camaro sub frames. I see they make bolt in front assemblies for the 1st gen but not the 2nd. is it only a matter of body mounts? or is there width length etc... differences? Any help would be appreciated!!!

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**andrewb70** · 06-14-2005

Everything is different.

Andrew

**Mean 69** · 06-14-2005

Quite a lot. The second gen cars use a "superior" front steering arm configuration relative to the less desireable rear steer on the first gen's, that is one of the biggest differences. Outside track on my 69 is about 71-72" tire to tire, my 70 is more like 74". I'd guess that there are other significant dimensional differences too, but for certain the suspension looks to be quite a bit better in terms of geometry on the second gen than the first gen.

Mark

**Kenova** · 06-15-2005

A while ago, there was a thread about what type of frame Wayne Due could do next. This seems to be a good example of one of the possibillities. A fabbed subframe for 1st gen F bodies and 2nd gen X bodies that will easily accept suspension components from 2nd gen F bodies.
I have heard of guys swapping in a second gen subframe, but it involved a lot of work. A few have said it just wasn't worth it. I've thought of doing this myself, but just don't have that much ambition.
Some of the things you have to consider:
(1)The six mounting points on the frame are most likely located in different spots.
(2)The dimensions/relationship between the mounting points and the front axle (spindles) centreline are probably different.
(3)I have read that the 2nd gen F body subframe has a certain amount of "body drop" designed into it.
(4)The mounting points for the bumper brackets and rad (see #1)support have to be moved.
I'm thinking the best way to do it would be to build a jig off of a 1st gen sub locating all of the critical mounting points. The jig would have to be located off of the spindles. You could then use the jig to locate the proper mounting points on the 2nd gen sub. If either of the subframes are bent just a bit, you're screwed.

How about it Wayne (Due), care to step up to the plate?

Ken

**David Pozzi** · 06-15-2005

A second gen sub has lower torsional rigidity.
It has worse ackerman steering correction, most ft steer cars do.
Here are some first gen sub dimensions, it's a Firebird, but they are the same as Camaro: http://www.pozziracing.com/Media/F_gen_Firebird_sub.jpg
Second gen: http://www.pozziracing.com/Media/72camaro_sub_dim.jpg

**MuscleRodz** · 06-15-2005

Originally Posted by OneslowZ28

I was wondering what the differences are between the 1st and 2nd gen camaro sub frames. I see they make bolt in front assemblies for the 1st gen but not the 2nd. is it only a matter of body mounts? or is there width length etc... differences? Any help would be appreciated!!!

I am pretty sure Martz makes a subframe for second gens. There is a member I think his handle is rickk, he has a white 70 or 71 that has been in several magazines.

Mike

**OneslowZ28** · 06-15-2005

I have a guy that make all sorts of front frames gen1 to chevy II but who doesn't. lol he has a few 2nd gen subframes in the back of the shop he has been saving for a rainy day. When I was talking to him about making up a "tube" chassis for my car and he said it is something i could do but more for the "offseason". I as well as everyone else out there know it takes a lot of work to make something from scratch like this. He seems like a pretty good guy and very informative. Now my question to everyone is Would you want this kind of product? if so....maybe we can all pool together and order up a few of these. Its about time someone starts making more items for the forgotten 2nd gens.

Anyone interested please let me know so i can forward this stuff to him.

Thanks!

**Mean 69** · 06-15-2005

I think the direction you decide to go on any suspension setup really needs to be in line with what you want to use the car for. Street, drag race, auto-x, and road racing all have peculiar requirements, there will never be a universal setup that does everything exceptionally. After a really critical assessment of what you want the car to do, you might find out that making smaller changes to the stock front subframe will make you super happy.

Maybe if you could expand a bit on what you want the car to do, it could help out a bit. Also, a big wishlist of things that you'd like would be great too!

Mark

**OneslowZ28** · 06-15-2005

i have a thread that was posted in this room a few weeks ago its on page 2 right now "tech question for a 78 camaro" i pretty much want a car that will handle well and still tear up the drag strip periodically. i want to put 335's out back and probably make a rolling chassis to set my camaro on with a 4 link rear....to make a long story short lol

**MuscleRodz** · 06-15-2005

Global West's Cat 5 system is a pretty serious system as well. I beleive there is a couple people here running them.

Mike

**zbugger** · 06-15-2005

That does make it tougher. And yes, Martz Chassis does make a front subframe for the 2nd gen. There's one on this car. http://www.carbuff.homeip.net/ Damn nice car too. Rickk has one on his car too.

**73-TYPE-LT-LS1** · 06-16-2005

Check my website, you will find a Wayne Due / Art Morison front end under my 73..

**OneslowZ28** · 06-17-2005

How much would i be looking to spend on that chassis from wayne due? it looks pretty sweet but im sure the price is up there.

**wendell** · 06-17-2005

This is one topic that makes me a little crazy. I wish the 2nd gens did it for me like my 67. The 2nd gen camaro is THE MOST developed front end in domestic motorsports. It's nearly impossible for me to imagine the need for a big money after market clip. If you absolutely can't stand the look of the stock clip, buy a fabbed one from SCP et.al. for about $600. After a little thinking and welding it'll bolt right up.

Please don't mistake this for a rant. Everyone has their own idea about what's cool. That's why cars are cool. 2nd gens are cool.
Jensen

**yody** · 06-17-2005

what the hell is "SCP et.al" ??

**TLWiltman** · 06-17-2005

Originally Posted by yody

what the hell is "SCP et.al" ??

SCP = Stock Car Products

Stock Car Products makes a weld-in front stub based on 2nd gen geometry for use in late model stock cars. I believe it's offered in "big spring" and coil-over configurations, and SCP also has tubular lower a-arms for said piece.

Howe racing and Lefthander both make similar units. The frame rails are a bit narrower than stock (3-4")and all of these frame units end right around where the firewall would be, so some fabrication would definitely be in order

IIRC "et. al" is "and all" in Latin.

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Thread: 1st Gen vs 2nd Gen Sub Frame whats different?

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1st Gen vs 2nd Gen Sub Frame whats different?

Anyone want a 2nd gen frame made?