Vendors Rant

[John S]

I was not sure whether to post this in the vendors section or here, so if need be Mods feel free to move.
I generally do not go off on rants or tirades but I am a bit frustrated and hope you forgive, bear with and let me vent.

Like so many others my car of choice is not a mainstream car. and as such there is very little offering in the way of parts and support.

Since i have been cooped up in the house for the past 5 weeks recovering from surgery :injured: I have spent a good amount of time researching the next upgrades for my car. Since most of the major work is done I am looking at the finishing details to try and set my car apart and let it stand out a little.
I see all the wonderful stuff that is out for the Camaros, Chevy II's, Chevelles etc and would like many of those parts for my car. unfortunately none of them are available. At least none that I can find. I have even called several Mfgs and left messages that never get return calls (but that is a whole different issue).
Here is a list of the items that I have been looking for, if anyone knows if these parts are available, or can interchange from another model I would greatly appreciate any input.
Manufacturers and vendors, you'll know who you are from the list of parts....

And just to be fair, there is one vendor in particular that has been very good to the Monte Carlo Community and i want to thank him publicly for his support. I've had the good fortune to work with him on several occasions and have a good many of his parts in my car, that is Mark from SC&C, :twothumbs

Ok, parts I'd like to get for my car;
Billet hood hinges
Tiger cage
Custom billet pedals, 3 pedal set.
Mini tub kit
Stainless gas tank with a sump
Int/Ext Billet door handles
Carbon Fiber Hood, pro tour or WS6 style

Anyway... sorry of I sound cranky, it's been a long 5 weeks.

[Iamtheonlyreal1]

I have had plenty of people ask for items I dont have when it comes to the Flush Mount Glass Kits, and I tell them all the same thing if I dont offer it at this time.. I try to explain that it all has to go by interest and demand, there really isnt a good way to develope and manufacturer an aftermarket part for a particular car unless the interest is there.. So, I tell them to get on their forums and with their friends to put togther a list of potential customers, then the cost of development and production can be weighed against the interest..

In today's economy, it is even harder to take a leap of faith when we dont have the volume of demand or request, so we have to be smarter.. It is hard to make an investment of time and money, to hopefully get paid back in a matter of several years. Certain models of cars, have a demand for higher end and priced aftermarket parts, and others have a minority of people that are willing to spend the money.. It is all a matter of interest and demand, alot of time the interest is there, but the demand isnt there at all.. For us smaller developers, it is harder to let loose of the investment money, because we dont have alot of other lines to fall back on to support the loss. If that makes any sense...

As I tell my potential customers that want products.. If you put together some interest any forums, please let me know, and I will look it over.. I would love to offer something to everyone, but cant afford to lose money on the item. Start a list of potential customer, or have the customers Email me directly, then we can probably work something out. I am sure every vendor here hates to disappoint, or say that the car you are working on doesnt have the interest or demand. As car guys, that is the last thing they want or need to say. But as businessmen, it is what they have to say..

[hifi875]

its all about demand. period.

[wmhjr]

It takes time, effort and money (investment) for each design. We are fortunate in that many of the vendors are also friends - but at the end of the day they have to run a business. That investment requires some degree of confidence that there is sufficient demand to at least cover the investment - considering realistic margin.

OTOH, if you were willing to front all the cost of development for the product, you may get a different answer. Problem is, it makes for real pricey parts. It's the down side of running a somewhat unique model.

[John S]

Yeah, I know you guys are right, and I already know and understand the demand principle. I can not help but wonder though if there were more parts availability would the interest and demand increase as well? The interest was not always there in the 1st gen Camaro's at one time.
I guess one upside to it is that most of the work done to the car is kind of unique. as an example, I do not know of any other Monte Carlo that uses a console mounted hand brake instead of the foot pedal, on rear disc brakes no less.
I wish I had some of the fabricating skills many of you posses :)

[Bill Howell]

I was not sure whether to post this in the vendors section or here, so if need be Mods feel free to move.
I generally do not go off on rants or tirades but I am a bit frustrated and hope you forgive, bear with and let me vent.

Like so many others my car of choice is not a mainstream car. and as such there is very little offering in the way of parts and support.

Since i have been cooped up in the house for the past 5 weeks recovering from surgery :injured: I have spent a good amount of time researching the next upgrades for my car. Since most of the major work is done I am looking at the finishing details to try and set my car apart and let it stand out a little.
I see all the wonderful stuff that is out for the Camaros, Chevy II's, Chevelles etc and would like many of those parts for my car. unfortunately none of them are available. At least none that I can find. I have even called several Mfgs and left messages that never get return calls (but that is a whole different issue).
Here is a list of the items that I have been looking for, if anyone knows if these parts are available, or can interchange from another model I would greatly appreciate any input.
Manufacturers and vendors, you'll know who you are from the list of parts....

And just to be fair, there is one vendor in particular that has been very good to the Monte Carlo Community and i want to thank him publicly for his support. I've had the good fortune to work with him on several occasions and have a good many of his parts in my car, that is Mark from SC&C, :twothumbs

Ok, parts I'd like to get for my car;
Billet hood hinges
Tiger cage
Custom billet pedals, 3 pedal set.
Mini tub kit
Stainless gas tank with a sump
Int/Ext Billet door handles
Carbon Fiber Hood, pro tour or WS6 style

Anyway... sorry of I sound cranky, it's been a long 5 weeks.

I will address a few of the items, some, like the billet door handles, are going to be only pipe dreams unless you got deep enough pockets for custom cnc work, come on, those are just now available for first gen camaros.

http://www.modoinnovations.com/ can probably help out with pedals.
Have you called Ridetech about a tiger cage? I know they have done some custom pieces, again, don't look for the first gen pricing but I bet they will build whatever a customer wants as long as that customer has the coin.
Minitub kits are usually for unibody cars (camaros). Not many for A bodies since that requires frame mods too before you can put in minitub sheetmetal.
Check with Ricks on a gas tank, I am sure they can build one, just not overnight.
Carbon Fiber hood? Don't hold your breathe on that one or you will turn blue. You can get a SS cowl hood though from Goodmark. Not many options on hoods for g-bodies and most all the fiberglass stuff is JUNK!
Remember, you picked the M/C, so if you want mods, step up and be a hotrodder. I only say it because trust me, there is nothing out there for a 72 charger. Also know this, once you do step up and people see cool stuff on an non traditional car, you will get their respect. It is easy to pull out the cc and order for a first gen camaro, much more though has to go into us oddballs.

[Kenova]

I agree with Bill. Try restoring or modifying a Vega. Other than a few small shops and E-bay there is no aftermarket support what so ever. There is even less respect.
I would bet the Monte has better after market support.

Ken

[John S]

I will address a few of the items, some, like the billet door handles, are going to be only pipe dreams unless you got deep enough pockets for custom cnc work, come on, those are just now available for first gen camaros.
Yeah, I know. Nothing wrong with dreaming though :)

http://www.modoinnovations.com/ can probably help out with pedals.
Already have a set of pedal covers, really would like a set like the ones offered by Hoodpins.net. Still waiting on a return call from them.
Have you called Ridetech about a tiger cage? I know they have done some custom pieces, again, don't look for the first gen pricing but I bet they will build whatever a customer wants as long as that customer has the coin.
Yep, have spoke to Ridetech several times. last year I was told that they are starting to develop one since several of the employees have 4th gen G bodies. I was told last week that they have not started it yet since they are busy with other items and that I should check back.
Minitub kits are usually for unibody cars (camaros). Not many for A bodies since that requires frame mods too before you can put in minitub sheetmetal.
i know of several G body mini tubs and you are correct, a frame notch is the first step. The ones I know of have used the sheet metal from donor cars to extend the wheel well. An aftermarket piece would be nice though.
Check with Ricks on a gas tank, I am sure they can build one, just not overnight.
Carbon Fiber hood? Don't hold your breathe on that one or you will turn blue. You can get a SS cowl hood though from Goodmark. Not many options on hoods for g-bodies and most all the fiberglass stuff is JUNK!
Yep, got a cowl hood now... so does everyone else. Over a year ago I spoke to a manufacturer that had just started development on a glass WS6 style hood for the Monte's. I spoke to them again last week and was told that they abandoned the hood. It still shows as "coming soon" on their website though
Remember, you picked the M/C,Yes I did, In 1986, original owner so if you want mods, step up and be a hotrodder.Oh, i have stepped up, and will continue to do so as far as my abilities will allow. I only say it because trust me, there is nothing out there for a 72 charger. Also know this, once you do step up and people see cool stuff on an non traditional car, you will get their respect. It is easy to pull out the cc and order for a first gen camaro, much more though has to go into us oddballs.
I do believe that I have stepped up. There are many things on my car that are unique and many things that I have had to fabricate or modify to work on a "non traditional" car. Some folks may not like them but I built what I felt was the representation that I wanted. I spent some time looking through my post history and found that I have really not posted much information on my car here. I've asked a lot of questions and received a lot of help and I do appreciate it. So once I get some new pictures taken I am going to post them up in the "project Updates" forum for your review. Feel free to let me know how good or bad I've done so far.

[John S]

ok, not being a machinist... and having almost no knowledge of CNC can someone offer an insight on this..
In the case of items such as the billet hood hinges, how difficult or time consuming is it to actually write the program for something like this? And once you have an initial piece done is it possible to produce another similar piece just by modifying the CNC program? Or do you need to start all over from scratch?

[Bill Howell]

I do believe that I have stepped up. There are many things on my car that are unique and many things that I have had to fabricate or modify to work on a "non traditional" car. Some folks may not like them but I built what I felt was the representation that I wanted. I spent some time looking through my post history and found that I have really not posted much information on my car here. I've asked a lot of questions and received a lot of help and I do appreciate it. So once I get some new pictures taken I am going to post them up in the "project Updates" forum for your review. Feel free to let me know how good or bad I've done so far.

To me the hot rodding part of this is what it is all about. Yes, it is frustrating when you can not just buy a part you need, but, and I think you already get it, there are just not enough m/c guys out there yet for many trick parts to be profitable for companies. Now, I do think Gbodies are the next 69 camaros, so look at it this way, you are just ahead of the curve...haha
I loved my 80 malibu and will build another one, many more parts out there now than just five years ago so don't give up, just hold on.

[68sixspeed]

ok, not being a machinist... and having almost no knowledge of CNC can someone offer an insight on this..
In the case of items such as the billet hood hinges, how difficult or time consuming is it to actually write the program for something like this? And once you have an initial piece done is it possible to produce another similar piece just by modifying the CNC program? Or do you need to start all over from scratch?


I'll throw my hat in on this as I design machinery for a living and have a cnc shop to make the machinery... lets say I could do it in a day on the computer, all 3D modeled nice for the door handle. A bit optimistic, but lets say for fun I could do it in a day. Shop rate ~$60 which is on the low side, that's $480. Now lets program the CNC, 2 unique programs plus mirror image ones... lets say that's another day with the cnc software getting smooth mesh work, clean toolpaths etc. Another $480... now lets machine it, $40 in aluminum, sitting in a $70k cnc machine that we bill at $65/hr Because everything is milled we make finish cuts around .005 inch all the way over the part and repeat at 90 degrees. Being first piece samples we can't run as fast as once we've run it once so we've got a day each on the handles, another day total for the buttons (including tool setup), there is another $1500... so can I sell you some $2500+ door handles? You could spend another 1/2 day doing hand work to make them real pretty... I'm not trying to be a wise-a$$, just doing the math. Oh, and if they don't fit I need to recut them again so it could easily turn from a 1 week project to a 2 week by the time you'd have good door handles. Good luck with the recovery, and besides, aluminum door handles don't make you go any faster! :) -Dan (ironic if you check out the Fesler/Twist items on my car, I can't make them as cheap as they sell them because of the 1pc setup costs!)

[wmhjr]

ok, not being a machinist... and having almost no knowledge of CNC can someone offer an insight on this..
In the case of items such as the billet hood hinges, how difficult or time consuming is it to actually write the program for something like this? And once you have an initial piece done is it possible to produce another similar piece just by modifying the CNC program? Or do you need to start all over from scratch?

It's a fair question, and perhaps somebody like Clay or one of the Feslers would be the best to answer. I'll give you two answers of my own. First of all, the original design takes a lot of effort as well as having a test bed. Then you find out the different issues you didn't anticipate. For a complex design, it takes quite a while. And when writing the cnc program you also need to consider the machine you're using and try to reduce how many times you need to reposition the material due to limits in travel, etc. So, the answer to how long is - pretty long.

The answer to the second question is that the completed program may still require material repositioning but should allow for accurate replication.

[shmoov69]

The only thing that I can add is that Mark from SC&C is awesome! He takes the time to talk and talk thru things with you.
That's all from me! LoL!

[Iamtheonlyreal1]

People really dont realize the time and dedication to get some of this stuff out there, not to mention the risk involved.. We have 11 more lines coming out for the spring, but I waited until I had some interest and some pretty good indications of definite future sales and promotions. Even then, I am not absolutely sure how long it will take to recoop the development and inventory cost for each line.

It has taken some time to feel customers out, and to be honest, some customers have helped to get the potential lines in motion.. They were on other forums and got the interest generated, and at that point, I have to consider it for sure.. You may try to do that with your model car, I am sure there are groups or guys out there that would be interested and help you be heard.

[RKHiPerformance]

I'll throw my hat in on this as I design machinery for a living and have a cnc shop to make the machinery... lets say I could do it in a day on the computer, all 3D modeled nice for the door handle. A bit optimistic, but lets say for fun I could do it in a day. Shop rate ~$60 which is on the low side, that's $480. Now lets program the CNC, 2 unique programs plus mirror image ones... lets say that's another day with the cnc software getting smooth mesh work, clean toolpaths etc. Another $480... now lets machine it, $40 in aluminum, sitting in a $70k cnc machine that we bill at $65/hr Because everything is milled we make finish cuts around .005 inch all the way over the part and repeat at 90 degrees. Being first piece samples we can't run as fast as once we've run it once so we've got a day each on the handles, another day total for the buttons (including tool setup), there is another $1500... so can I sell you some $2500+ door handles? You could spend another 1/2 day doing hand work to make them real pretty... I'm not trying to be a wise-a$$, just doing the math. Oh, and if they don't fit I need to recut them again so it could easily turn from a 1 week project to a 2 week by the time you'd have good door handles. Good luck with the recovery, and besides, aluminum door handles don't make you go any faster! :) -Dan (ironic if you check out the Fesler/Twist items on my car, I can't make them as cheap as they sell them because of the 1pc setup costs!)

This is an excellent post.
I am a part-owner in a CNC shop and find that many folks (not necessarily the OP, but many folks) think designing and manufacturing a part with CNC equipment is like operating a microwave.
The ol'..."Put the material in the vice, close the doors, hit the green button, and read a magazine while the machine does the work."
As described above, this is clearly not the case. One-off stuff is expensive and often time consuming, and even with greater quantities it can take a while to get the initial investment back.

[go-fish]

I want to start a Rant thread about ........... RANTING!

[ProdigyCustoms]

We like G bodies ourselves, have a couple in our stable. Before I reply, I am familair with your car John and know from the deposits you made into my account how much you have spent! I also know how much we spent on Michael's Monte Carlo, like Bill Howell, WAY to much!

Problem with the G Body crowd is most are VERY budget orientated. For example, we built the flares for Michael's Monte Carlo and offered them for $499, to say we got a negative response, NOT over the design, but over the price would be a huge understatement. There were no big brake kits for these cars, We designed a Wilwood 13" (6) piston kit, offered it for the same cost as all other Wilwood (6) piston kits.......Crickets! Not one single replay. And this was in the Monte world.

True it was 4 or 5 years ago we made a stab at that market, but as a general rule the people I meet doing G bodies have very limited budgets. So it makes it extremely difficult to gear up and produce $500 flares, $1900 brake kits, $700 hinges, $1000 CF hoods.

We are going to put Michael's Monte Carlo up for sale one day. We conservatively have at least $60k in it, we will ask HALF, I bet he owns it a long time.

BTW, I threw away the $2500 molds for the flares a couple weeks ago! Needed the space!

[pokey64]

John,
When I was at my powder coater a couple months ago he had a frame from an 85 MC waiting to be done. My coater is not a car guy so he didn't know the details. He did say that the bodyshop guy told him the owner was 115k into it and wasn't close to done yet. The frame was back halfed so I'm assuming it's going to be a prostreet style show car or something. I'll shoot you details if I ever see it finished.

[monteboy84]

Frank nailed it. The stereotypical G-body owner is far different than the stereotypical first-gen Camaro builder. Myself as an example, I'm doing a C5 brake conversion with Kore3 brackets, but everything else is used. The largest single expense on my current list is a $650 Stage II Plus kit from Savitske.

Point being, while you may be ready to drop $700 on G-body hinges, I really don't know of anyone else who would. Also along the same lines as Frank, a G-body is not a good investment. If I were starting now I'd do something older that'd be a better investment, I only stick with my Monte because it was my first car. YMMV :smoke:

-matt

[ErikLS2]

Aside from the sentimental situtations, it seems to me to make much more sense to pick a model more supported by the suppliers out there when you're on a budget. I know there are Camaros all over the place but we still see original ideas appear on them all the time plus doing one of them kind of forces you to be more creative if you want it to stand out.

I certainly appreciate Frank and guys like him willing to put their own money into testing the marketplace with products that may not be worth it to produce.

[John S]

To 68sixspeed, whmjr & Iamtheonlyrealone, thank you for the input guys I completey understand where you are coming from, I may not like it, but I understand. :)

To Frank, LOL... and I appreciate all your help. I was out of the loop for a while, wish I had known you were doing big brakes. Although I already have 13" C5 rotors and calipers on my car I was hoping to find 6 piston calipers to convert to. I've only spoke to baer so far and they were no help.
IF what Bill says come to pass hang in there, we may get good values for the G body one day.

Erik, I'm not sure I agree with you. Although I have not done a lot of looking I am not sure that you can honestly build a budget Camaro. At least defining "budget" may be the issue. Given the cost of even buying a decent car to work with you could be well on the way to a very decent completed G Body for just the cost of a decent "roller" Camaro.

I believe some of the problem is in perception. Most of the auto world looks on the 4th Gen era cars, G bodies included with contempt. very few cars of this era were anything to really write home about. They were mostly underpowered and IMHO assembly during this time was less than stellar.
Monteboy is right as well, someone that buys a G body is looking at it because it is one of the last full frame RWD cars made and they can be had for almost nothing. There is barely enough of an aftermarket to support the needs of most that just want to look and perform better than stock without getting into the high end arena. I believe that if any car... G bodies included became the star of the media, you would see a lot different type of person willing to buy them and work on them. And spend more on them. Maybe once the generation of the 80's and 90's gets more liquid we'll see a change.

In response to Bills post I went and started a thread in the projects update forum about my car since I have not really posted much about it. In the few days the post has been up it's gotten 78 views and no comments. It could be that my writing sux or it could be that there is just not much interest in a no name Monte Carlo. You can check it out here if you want to, I'll be adding more soon. https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?78121-My-86-Monte-SS

And to set the record straight, I love Camaro's. I owned a 69 Z-28 when I was 17. Bought it for $1800 in great condition with a 302, muncie 4 spd and optioned with 4wheel disc. Sold it to a friend when I enlisted and he still has it. That was 35 years ago and I still regret it. Had great times in that car and could tell some stories. :)