DSE coilover conversion with Global West control arms for 68 camaro

[davidk68]

Hello guys,
I am looking at converting my 68 Camaro subframe to a true coil-over set up (not the QA1 GMP). I know that DSE and Speedtech both make kits to do this and I am leaning towards the DSE kit. I currently have GW upper control arms and would purchase their lower arms for coil-over shocks. According to GW's website, their upper arms have "built in 6 degrees of positive caster". According to DSE's website, with their coilover conversion, the upper control arm is "relocated to a new position to improve geometry by raising the front roll center". Not sure if this means the Guldstrand mod or not. The car will be street driven with some autocross and limited track days. Typical 450hp, t56, triangulated 4-link rear. Any advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks, David

[dhutton]

Just curious why you chose DSE over Speedtech. DSE requires that you bust the balljoint to adjust the coilover. Speedtech does not. DSE can only be installed with the engine out if that makes a difference.

[realcoray]

I want to say that the DSE conversion is close to the guldstrand mod. Neither kit comes with coilovers so how hard it is to adjust is entirely on you with what coilovers you buy. I'm sure both companies will gladly tell you what length/spring rate etc coilover they would use and you can go from there getting QA1, Varishock, Ridetech, AFCO, Koni or whatever.

I would say that the speedtech conversion looks much cooler and you may not want the pickup point mods on the DSE depending on your other parts (for example if you are running AFX spindles or tall ball joints).

[dhutton]

I want to say that the DSE conversion is close to the guldstrand mod. Neither kit comes with coilovers so how hard it is to adjust is entirely on you with what coilovers you buy. I'm sure both companies will gladly tell you what length/spring rate etc coilover they would use and you can go from there getting QA1, Varishock, Ridetech, AFCO, Koni or whatever.

I would say that the speedtech conversion looks much cooler and you may not want the pickup point mods on the DSE depending on your other parts (for example if you are running AFX spindles or tall ball joints).

DSE coilover mounts upside down so you cannot adjust it without busting the balljoint and removing it...

[johnny68]

i would advise you to talk to Blake over at speed tech just to some ideas ive heard dse is a pain to adj. just my 2 cents
john

[davidk68]

Thanks for the replies. I'm not opposed to the Speedtech chicane and I was trying to find a picture of one installed earlier on a lateral-g thread but ran out of time. I like the clean look of the DSE kit and the collar at the top but it would be a pain to bust the ball joint to adjust the shock. With the built in caster of the GW arms, I don't know if I would have "too much" caster with the Gulstrand mod/DSE kit. I emailed DSE to ask them if their kit was G-mod spec but I haven't heard back from them. I haven't chosen a shock brand yet as I wanna run the same as the rear and I'm still working on that too. I doubt if I'll run the AFX spindles but tall ball joints are a maybe. Global West says their arms will work with the G-mod. Just trying to weigh out my options and not do something stupid....

[marolf101x]

I suggest you keep upper and lower arms from the same manufacturer, whoever it may be. You never really know who did what when they re-designed.

Another option is our (Ridetech) just finished, 100% bolt-in, coil over kit for the first gen. The coil over uses a delrin ball and socket upper mount so you don't have to modify the stock subframe (just make sure the stock welds are good):
http://www.ridetech.com/store/suspension-components/components-hardware/rod-ends-bushings-and-mounts/master-series-shockwave-swivel-stud-mount-2-ext..html

[Modo Innovations]

With the built in caster of the GW arms, I don't know if I would have "too much" caster with the Gulstrand mod/DSE kit. I emailed DSE to ask them if their kit was G-mod spec but I haven't heard back from them. I haven't chosen a shock brand yet as I wanna run the same as the rear and I'm still working on that too. I doubt if I'll run the AFX spindles but tall ball joints are a maybe. Global West says their arms will work with the G-mod. Just trying to weigh out my options and not do something stupid....

The DSE kit is not exactly to the G-mod spec. How much different? I don't think we mere mortals could tell the difference on the street. With the G-mod or the DSE kit you don't need to run the tall ball joints or the tall ATS spindles. These accomplish the same thing as the g-mod, they just come at it in a different way. I believe this is the reason for stock height ATS spindle, for those who have done the G-mod. Tyler would have to chime in on that one.

[dhutton]

Here is a DSE Speed 3 sub for sale that has been modified to allow the coilover to mount right side up and be adjusted without breaking the balljoint:

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=30195

[Van B]

What would need to be done in order to install a shock right side up or make in a DSE conversion? Or would there be more that has to be done to allow ease of adjustability? What has been done to the sub and arms in the one in dhutton's link above? I was looking at that yesterday.

[davidk68]

I agree that I should stay with the same brand arms and I would rather not ditch what I have, buy all new stuff and have to resell the GW parts. For that reason it does seem like the chicane probably makes more sense, and being able to adjust the shock on the car is a good thing. I plan on probably getting single adjustable shocks. Does anyone have a link to a picture of a chicane kit installed? My engine will be out and the subframe off the car when I do this work so that part of the DSE kit doesn't bother me. It looks to me that the subframe that Don linked had the upper mount raised above the stock DSE kit location, as well as the lower mount too.

Britt, did you link the correct part? I don't understand how that works. Would the coilover bolt to that piece? The Ridetech coil overs are definitely an option for me.

Thanks for the help guys

[Bad94]

What would need to be done in order to install a shock right side up or make in a DSE conversion? Or would there be more that has to be done to allow ease of adjustability? What has been done to the sub and arms in the one in dhutton's link above? I was looking at that yesterday.

That is my brothers sub frame. He and i talked to kyle a few times about double adjustable shocks on a stock sub frame and he helped us out a ton. We have the first 2 set of custom shocks for stock sub frame. By no means is this a 5 min swap.

I have did the DSE install on my sub, and i just cut everything off but the a arm mount. and making our own coilover mounts.


The lower control a arm had to have the hole opened up. and move the mounts out wider.

I will post some more pics.

[Nothingface5384]

you know spc have lowers that can also use coil overs with like a 15-20 dollar or so coilover spacer mount

SC&C sells them

[Bad94]

Here are some more pics.

http://s-seriesforum.com/gallery/album563

[marolf101x]

The link I supplied shows a stud mount top (opposed to a ring mount style that is typical in these applications). If you already have our shocks it's as simple as removing the ring mount and screwing on the stud mount. If you order new shocks you just need to tell the sales guys what you want. All our parts are modular, so you can build a lot of different combinations with a small number of parts.

The stud mount has an adjuster built into the center of the part (that's the knob at the top) so you can adjust the shock from the engine compartment.

Because there is an adjuster in the middle the stud mount has to be solid, so how do you make it swivel when the shock moves through suspension travel? I was reading a medical article about hip replacements and got the idea of making a "ball and socket" mount. Half the Delrin ball sits on top of the frame, half under the frame (located in the stock shock mounting hole) and there are aluminum sockets that the ball rides in. This provides a solid mount (unlike bushings) but still allows the shock to move.

[BeerB8AmmoGRITS]

I was stuck in the same place for a long time too trying to make a decision. Here is the best walk through of the chicane kit being installed I ever found. Shows pretty well what needs to be done to install the kit or what would need to be done to modify a DSE style upper mount to work. Hope it helps http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=145202

Adam

[TheBandit]

With the built in caster of the GW arms, I don't know if I would have "too much" caster with the Gulstrand mod/DSE kit.

I can't speak for the DSE kit, but based on the templates I got from Guldstrand and a discussion I had with them over the phone, the relocations points do not have a significant effect on caster. They move the points down, not rearward. I talked to Global West about using their arms with the G-mod. They told me the balljoint is further to the rear and the arms are a little bit shorter. Rear movement of the BJ increases the caster. The shortness of the arms increases the rate of camber gain. They said the chamber curve contribution of the arms isn't nearly as much as the G-mod and the two worked well together. This wasn't based on trying to sell me anything; I told them up front that I didn't know if I was going to do the G-mod or not and I was considering their arms.

For my project I've decided to use the AFCO spring adjusters with a traditional coil spring + shock. That will let me dial in ride height (or more importantly find the sweet spot in the suspension geometry), use inexpensive springs, and select from a variety of shocks.

[davidk68]

Thanks for the info guys and Adam that is a great link. I found another good one on lateral-g that showed the finished product but not a whole lot of the actual work. After some email and discussion with Roger at Speedtech, I ended up going with the chicane kit. I won't be installing it until this summer - still working on my mini-tubs. I'll decide then if I'm gonna use my GW lowers and possibly modify them (they are the ones made for traditional coil springs) or get the coilover GW lower control arms. The Ridetech shocks look pretty sweet too and I'll probably go with them.

Thanks again,
David

[BeerB8AmmoGRITS]

Glad I could help a bit, even more so that it sounds like you have your head wrapped around your plan. I hope I can stop changing my mind on the front suspension of my 68 sometime soon. So many options for these cars! The link I gave you had some decent pics of how to modify lower arms with the supplied mounting tabs from the chicane kit. I am not exactly sure which coilovers the GW coilovers were designed for but some of the arms manufacturers simply supply a more beefed up mounting surface for a bar style mount (and call them coilover LCAs) which I am trying to avoid. DSE states their coilover LCAs are only designed for their coilover kit but I have never read anything verifying exactly what they mean by that, I'm sure they can be modified as well. The way I would go would be using the supplied tabs in the chicane kit to modify the GW LCAs you have if you are happy with them and the location of the mounts would be optimal for the length of shock you plan to use. Its an unneeded expense since Speedtech/ATS supply everything you need to make it work.
I spoke with Tyler a while back and he informed me that the chicane kit was designed around 5" travel shock with a 15.25" extended length. Just some numbers to keep in mind when setting everything up and ordering shocks. From the looks of em you should be very happy with the ridetech shocks. They look like a very sturdy piece and were made with the help of FOX which I have used on my truck and am EXTREMELY impressed with. Not to throw another option out there because I know how much it sucks to get yet another option after you think you got it all wrapped up, but ridetech and chris alston chassisworks have LCAs that were designed for coilovers. The new ridetech coilovers will bolt right to them and the pocket is dropped for additional shock travel/lower ride height.
Good Luck!
Adam

[killer69]

Here are some pictures of the finished installed product on One Lap. this set up includes the AFX spindles, hiClearance upper control arms, Lower Control Arms and Penskie Shocks. the system can also work with QA1's or Ride Tech shocks. We have all the combinations figured out with QA1 and Ridetech shocks

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/03/Chicane-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/03/chicane2-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/03/Chicane3-1.jpg

[davidk68]

Thanks for the shock info Adam, that's good info to know. I've seen the ride tech and chassisworks control arms too but I was leaning towards staying with the same brand uppers and lowers and I would like to use what I have. The GW lower arm for coilovers sppears to be used for the QA-1 "pseudo" coilover because that's what they sell. The GW website discussed how they strengthened the lower arem for use with a coilover. It doesn't provide bar diameter and wall thickness though like the speedtech website. I'll probably use the same basic setup as the OLC did above. Even if I sold my lowers, the new GW coilover lower bars are pushing 7 bills..... Adam, you could just go with a new aftermarket subframe. But then you'd have to decide which one...DSE, ST, AME ....

Blake, thanks for the pics. I'm looking forward to getting the chicane kit mounted, UPS says it's at my house now! Is the upper arm on the OLC the same as the UCA on your website. The one on the website appears to have more of a curve in the area near the ball joint and is very, very similar to the GW upper arm. The one above appears to be "straighter", more like a DSE arm.

Also, I did email DSE and ask them if their coilover conversion kit was the same as the G-mod and they responded that it is close, but a little different and should be used with their arms.

Thanks,
David

[killer69]

the Upper Arm shown is our HiClearance upper, but it can only be used if you are using the Tall AFX Spindle. they help give alot more clearance for high back space wheels.

[gcallahan]

I was all set to get the DSE package, coilovers uppers and lowers till I read this thread and it commented what a pain it is to adjust. I have done the G-mod on my 69 but have yet to complet the car. But I am totally sold on getting coilovers. So would the Speedtech uppers and lowers with their Chicane coilover mount work with the G-mod? I have also read that the GW uppers work with the G-mod, so maybe that is the way to go?