Magnetic Fluid Shocks

[TheJDMan]

I know these Magnetic Fluid shocks are used by the military on Hummers and on Corvettes and I understand they will be on the new ZL1 Camaros. I'm wondering if anyone is doing any testing to make this technology available to the aftermarket. From what I have read these MF shocks will make conventional shock technology obsolete.

[dontlifttoshift]

I saw some of the fluid in a jar on a shop tour of an aftermarket supplier. Basically it is stupid expensive and it takes a really complicated computer program for it to be effective.
Based on the information given to me it would be highly unlikely that the technology would be available to us anytime soon.

[monteboy84]

From what I have read these MF shocks will make conventional shock technology obsolete.

Marketing hype. Brilliant system, but there's a cost associated with that, and as mentioned, a complicated computer system is required to make it work right. Part of hot-rodding will always be simplicity, so I don't see conventional shocks going to the way-side as a result of this particular technology.

-matt

[Keith]

I believe that they are finding their way onto many cars nowdays. Most of the high-end cars have them. The "complicated computer" may be true to tap into their full potential as a constantly modified dampener (tied into a cars stability control etc.), but we may see some "dumbed" down version in the not-to-diatant future. Basically it is just an electric charge that changes the viscosity of the magnetic fluid. The OEM's system changes constantly based on feedback to the computer. A simple consumer system could be controlled by a switch ranging from soft to firm.

[formula]

I believe that they are finding their way onto many cars nowdays. Most of the high-end cars have them. The "complicated computer" may be true to tap into their full potential as a constantly modified dampener (tied into a cars stability control etc.), but we may see some "dumbed" down version in the not-to-diatant future. Basically it is just an electric charge that changes the viscosity of the magnetic fluid. The OEM's system changes constantly based on feedback to the computer. A simple consumer system could be controlled by a switch ranging from soft to firm.

Bingo, we have a winner. This will be how they end up in the aftermarket--in the form of the ability to adjust shock "damping" by changing fluid viscosity over a set range from inside the car.

[TheJDMan]

"Complicated Computers" is a term that could also be applied to "Engine Control Modules" but I don't see ECMs slowing down the aftermarket. IMO, it is just a matter of time before these show up in the aftermarket as full on active suspension systems.

[marolf101x]

You mean this stuff? (there is a magnet under the plate, causing the metal particles in the fluid to group around the magnetic field lines)
44454

You will likely not see this in the Aftermarket any time soon, though there are people working on it.
At this moment the cost is too prohibitive. Not only is the fluid expensive, but any part the fluid touches has to be specially treated so the minuscule iron particles in the fluid don't eat the shock from the inside out.

As far as computer controls, look at EFI. Not long ago you couldn't do much to the stock ECU. Now the Aftermarket has self learning systems. Hardware is no problem, it's the software that makes all the cool stuff happen, but is also what takes the longest to develop at the greatest cost.

Our Select Series shocks (http://www.ridetech.com/store/suspension-components/components-hardware/aluminum-shocks/select-series-bearing-shock.html) were the predecessor to the MR beasts you find on high-end cars today. They change shock stiffness by routing oil through a soft valve stack or a firm valve stack, instead of changing the fluid viscosity. These have been offered by the OE manufactures in "soft/firm" push button style as well as full computer controlled units that adjusted on the fly.

[TheJDMan]

Look what I found, this company is currently offering Magnetic Fluid Shocks for all sorts of automotive applications. I'm a little surprised the RideTech guys have not jumped all over this technology.

http://www.magneshock.com/

http://www.magneshock.com/Documents/3rdGenSDSSPECSMagneShocksOvalRoadrace2-10-11.pdf

[UMI Tech]

I was just going to mention Carrera, now a part of QA1, had these 10 years ago for oval track use.

Ramey

[Yelcamino]

Look what I found, this company is currently offering Magnetic Fluid Shocks for all sorts of automotive applications. I'm a little surprised the RideTech guys have not jumped all over this technology.

http://www.magneshock.com/

http://www.magneshock.com/Documents/3rdGenSDSSPECSMagneShocksOvalRoadrace2-10-11.pdf

Holy shock Batman!!! Cool technology, but a bit outside my funding ability.

3rd Gen; Basic System with FOUR (4) Std. Shocks, Controller, Programmer, all cables, 2-position (w/cable) & 5-position Remote Switches - $7675.00.

[MyFriendScott]

In 3-5 years, my shoes will have MF shock absorbers, controlled by my iPod.

[exwestracer]

I was just going to mention Carrera, now a part of QA1, had these 10 years ago for oval track use.

Ramey

Longer than that, bud. It just didn't go PUBLIC for a while...:secret:

[exwestracer]

You mean this stuff? (there is a magnet under the plate, causing the metal particles in the fluid to group around the magnetic field lines)
44454



Big deal... I can get this stuff out of my oil pan anytime I want... Wait, IS THAT A BAD THING????:scared:

[Kenny]

Probably the most cost effective thing to do right now is use the GM control unit and adapt Corvette or CTS-V shocks. They have been around long enough to find on Ebay or salvage yard for a reasonable cost. I am hoping to snag the brain and shocks off an Escalade platinum for the AWD S-10 blazer project. There has got to be a way to manipulate the algorithms. It might get interesting using the ABS to help with turn-in etc..... Just to throw in a new level of complication, would it be possible to use small cylinders for sway bar links that would more or less free float until activated by yaw sensor/ steering input? Digressive rate swaybars? That would be a smooth ride. Sick!

[exwestracer]

Probably the most cost effective thing to do right now is use the GM control unit and adapt Corvette or CTS-V shocks. They have been around long enough to find on Ebay or salvage yard for a reasonable cost. I am hoping to snag the brain and shocks off an Escalade platinum for the AWD S-10 blazer project. There has got to be a way to manipulate the algorithms. It might get interesting using the ABS to help with turn-in etc..... Just to throw in a new level of complication, would it be possible to use small cylinders for sway bar links that would more or less free float until activated by yaw sensor/ steering input? Digressive rate swaybars? That would be a smooth ride. Sick!

Also already out there, Kenny. There are circle track and road racing suppliers that build those hyd. bar links. I'll see if I can find the info. As far as I know, they use a simple needle valve to regulate flow.

[SLO_Z28]

The only way these would be advantageous over a high end shock like JRi is for compromise. There is an optimal force per velocity for any given situation, and with a shock dyno and some math you can figure out exactly what to set your shocks at for any given surface. Don't over think it, if you want the best just get JRi.

[UMI Tech]

The only way these would be advantageous over a high end shock like JRi is for compromise. There is an optimal force per velocity for any given situation, and with a shock dyno and some math you can figure out exactly what to set your shocks at for any given surface. Don't over think it, if you want the best just get JRi.

I was just getting ready to ask if anyone considered using Penske dampers or equivalent. Then I took a look at JRi's site. Benny Gordon is the ProCup champ from a few years back and he's still bad-fast. It would be pretty cool to see how a set of those felt on our semi-Pro-Tour LeMans...

[SLO_Z28]

I was just getting ready to ask if anyone considered using Penske dampers or equivalent. Then I took a look at JRi's site. Benny Gordon is the ProCup champ from a few years back and he's still bad-fast. It would be pretty cool to see how a set of those felt on our semi-Pro-Tour LeMans...

It worked well for Detroit Speed and Engineering, they use them on Stacey and Kyle Tuckers' camaros, also guys like Brian Hobaugh and Mike Maier are wicked fast on those shocks.

Odd fact Jeff Ryan the man behind JRi was one of the first 10 employees for Bob Fox back in 1980. The JRi team is comprised of a lot of ex Penske guys.

[UMI Tech]

Oh, forgot to mention, Benny's Predator shop is 30 miles from here (unfortunately closed now). I worked on some articles for Circle Track Magazine about their chassis shop a few years back. And I crew chiefed two Pro Cup cars in a futile attempt to catch him but OMG was he fast.

Benny was one of the first racers around here to "come back from down south" with Big Bar Soft Spring and the associated damper technology.

Those dampers as well as Penske's would be easily adjusted at a Pro Tour event the same way we did at Hooter's. Probably ten minutes from car pulling in until a revalved damper is back on the car.

Looks like a really cool company.

[andrewb70]

Look what I found, this company is currently offering Magnetic Fluid Shocks for all sorts of automotive applications. I'm a little surprised the RideTech guys have not jumped all over this technology.

http://www.magneshock.com/

http://www.magneshock.com/Documents/3rdGenSDSSPECSMagneShocksOvalRoadrace2-10-11.pdf

The technology is very cool, no doubt about that. It is also $7675.

http://www.magneshock.com/Documents/3rdGenPRICEListOvalTrackRoadRacing.pdf

At our level we would be WAY better off to spend that money on driving school.

Andrew

[Kenny]

The only way these would be advantageous over a high end shock like JRi is for compromise. There is an optimal force per velocity for any given situation, and with a shock dyno and some math you can figure out exactly what to set your shocks at for any given surface. Don't over think it, if you want the best just get JRi.
While it is true that there is "optimal force per velocity for any given situation", there is no optimal force per velocity that covers every situation. If that were the case there would be no need for quad adjustable shocks etc. There would just be a spreadsheet that clicked out the proper number once all the parameters were put in. More to the point: JRi seems plenty content to do engineering on active systems. The only reason they aren't readily available is the rulebooks of different sanctioning bodies.

I think of pro-touring as building a street legal race car with creature comforts that will perform as a daily driver as well as performing well on track days, but will spend most of it's time on public roads. Setting up a race shock for a single track and purpose is different than driving cross country on back roads with comfort and performing well at the track with the same components.

[SLO_Z28]

I guess that's where the line is, and I'm on the other side of it. I would rather be highly competitive on the track than have something that rides like a Cadillac.

Also this would only be worthwhile if you were a 10/10ths driver of a 10/10ths car. In other words it would be better to invest in the driver over the car.

[exwestracer]

In other words it would be better to invest in the driver over the car.

Haha, way to NOT get sponsored! And absolutely true...

[Kenny]

The line is that you can have something that rides like a Cadillac AND be highly competitive at the track. Building a car that is more than single purpose can be rewarding. The active system would be better for the 10/10 situation as well. As someone that has spent more than a few hours on a shock dyno, elbow deep in shock oil and parts, the fact that you are always having to find the best compromise to get faster around a track is well understood. There is always a new product coming out to overcome the many shortfalls. When dealing with Penske, there was linear, digressive, VDP, and every thing in between. The same was true of Ohlins and Bilstein to a lesser degree. There were all all kinds bleed adjustments, remote adjustable reservoirs and pressure adjustments. None of them could completely overcome the fact that a car my be several hundred pounds heavier at one portion of the track due to aero downforce, would need a bunch of front lift for forward bite like Martinsville, and control body pitch if there was a nasty dip on the track. Now consider using shocks for very high speed portions of the track that have an excessive amount of rebound to make the car suck down for less aero drag...... A road course will usually have all these conditions and more. The shocks that would perform ideally for each of these situations on it's own is completely opposite from the other.

There is no reason to assume that someone that is trying to implement the latest technology doesn't know how to drive. What is it about trying to do something innovative makes some guys assume that they are better drivers? There may be some evidence to support that the guys who can't see the potential benefits should seek instruction.

[SLO_Z28]

Are you ready to make a PLC that can operate (d/dx)sin(x) =cos(x) and (d/dx)arcsin(x)=1/1-{√(x²)} and all the other base exponential functions on all 3 axis at sampling rates over 1ms, interpolate that data in a 128 bit operating system using inputs from the steering wheel yaw, throttle position, yaw and roll sensors, then apply that data to usable root mean square output? Can you even develop µ for your application?

Can it be done? Absolutely. I would equate this to the task of getting ABS to work on the red devil, all you need is an engineering background, and a small team of highly experienced engineers that were involved in this type of project before.

[exwestracer]

There is no reason to assume that someone that is trying to implement the latest technology doesn't know how to drive. What is it about trying to do something innovative makes some guys assume that they are better drivers? There may be some evidence to support that the guys who can't see the potential benefits should seek instruction.

Kenny,
I know where you are coming from on the innovation statement. I've got a shock project going that's so close to the "edge", the Penske engineers don't even want to talk to me about it anymore... Don't get me wrong, the magnetorheological stuff is awesome technology...when you have the tuning ability and testing hours to go along with it.

I think the point James was trying to make (and I know I was) is that many people seem to think that the latest "tweak of the week" will somehow magically make them faster, when the cold reality is they don't really understand what they've got and how to get the most out of it. It's the same old magazine article mentality...just because it was in "Pro-Touring Monthly" or whatever; it's gotta be the cure for what ails ya. And in this particular case, we are talking about a significant investment.

I'm not assuming I'm a better driver than anybody... I do have a pretty good idea how to adapt a particular car to a particular course, and this has proven out a number of times. My peeve is seeing people spend a pile of money on something they will likely never take full advantage of.

[SLO_Z28]

My peeve is seeing people spend a pile of money on something they will likely never take full advantage of.

We call that Show Touring ;)

[bimmen325]

Magnetic fluid shocks are not the only option, in 2006 the FIA banned the suspension in Sabastien Loeds wrc car, because it worked too well. This system is now used on McLaren's MP4-12C and is lighter since there is no need for anti-roll bars.

[UMI Tech]

I'm a trained mechanical engineer (PSU '94) and these last few threads freaked me out...

[Kenny]

Are you ready to make a PLC that can operate (d/dx)sin(x) =cos(x) and (d/dx)arcsin(x)=1/1-{√(x²)} and all the other base exponential functions on all 3 axis at sampling rates over 1ms, interpolate that data in a 128 bit operating system using inputs from the steering wheel yaw, throttle position, yaw and roll sensors, then apply that data to usable root mean square output? Can you even develop µ for your application?

Can it be done? Absolutely. I would equate this to the task of getting ABS to work on the red devil, all you need is an engineering background, and a small team of highly experienced engineers that were involved in this type of project before. Please re-read post #14


Kenny,
I know where you are coming from on the innovation statement. I've got a shock project going that's so close to the "edge", the Penske engineers don't even want to talk to me about it anymore... Don't get me wrong, the magnetorheological stuff is awesome technology...when you have the tuning ability and testing hours to go along with it.

I think the point James was trying to make (and I know I was) is that many people seem to think that the latest "tweak of the week" will somehow magically make them faster, when the cold reality is they don't really understand what they've got and how to get the most out of it. It's the same old magazine article mentality...just because it was in "Pro-Touring Monthly" or whatever; it's gotta be the cure for what ails ya. And in this particular case, we are talking about a significant investment.

I'm not assuming I'm a better driver than anybody... I do have a pretty good idea how to adapt a particular car to a particular course, and this has proven out a number of times. My peeve is seeing people spend a pile of money on something they will likely never take full advantage of. Please see post #1. I did not read the part that said "help, I'm not a good driver, but these shocks will do the trick"

It has been mentioned through these posts that all a person needs is a shock dyno, a few thousand dollars worth of shocks/ parts, and nitrogen tanks (in the ol' home garage?). The last Penske's I worked with were $1500 each and I know the JRi's are more budget oriented at under $1000, then we go grab a well worn(used) shock dyno for $5000-$7500....... Not to mention getting all the valving experience to put you in the ballpark at each different track. You guys that really know how to build shocks can look back at the learning curve and know that writing software may have been easier. For the guys that yank a set of pre-valved shocks out of a box and tweak the knobs....... well it takes nothing but pure luck to make you the fastest guy on the track. The last shock dyno I worked with was $35,000. The one at Bilstein was probably over $60k.

I just found a FE55 setup off a 16k mi Vette complete with brain for $500....... Seems worth a shot.

The thing that has really stood out about the whole thing is the whole "can't do" mentality. It is like someone asked if anyone had a good soup recipe and the reply was "you need to get yerself some can openin' classes"

[exwestracer]

Post #1 specifically asked about this technology being available to (or from) the aftermarket. It has been, for a lot more than 1500 a corner.

None of us said that no one should try to adapt a system from the OEM to a different vehicle. Selling them as a package isn't the same thing...

[Kenny]

Post #1 specifically asked about this technology being available to (or from) the aftermarket. It has been, for a lot more than 1500 a corner.

None of us said that no one should try to adapt a system from the OEM to a different vehicle. Selling them as a package isn't the same thing... I agree. I don't think that particular aftermarket system is monetarily sane or that well executed. This may be exclusive to me, but as I near the age of dirt, gizmos that adjust my car are very welcome in the right application. Rolling under a car, or removing shocks to adjust them has made me weary:sleeping:.

The opposition of others to the AWD project I'm working on, especially when electric assist power steering and carbon brakes are mentioned, may be bringing about some hyper-sensitivity.

[bret]

The biggest challenge to MR shocks for the aftermarket is not the hardware. The hardware, or at least a basic version of it, it already in place with units already being used on the ZR1 Corvette, the CTS V Caddilac, and several other high end cars. Creating other model specific units is a fabrication excercise.
The biggest challenge is in programming the units to act and react as you need and expect them to. This is a project along the line of an electronic fuel injection system. It is also a challenge that will be met, likley sooner than later.
In the late 80's and early 90's, aftermarket fuel injection was in its infancy. The systems started out as very basic units that the customer could control via a group of potentiometers and then some crude programming. I suspect that this is how electronic suspensions will progress. The bonus now is that computing power is way advanced over 1990, so progress will come faster.

Shocks [or the purchase of] will not make your car faster. They WILL, however, make your car more stable and predictable so YOU can learn how to drive better and faster. MR technology will do for suspension what EFI did for engines...it will put power into the hands of those who did not have it before.
With all the resources put toward aftermarket EFI, remember that there are a great many new carbuetors still sold in the world. So it will be with electronic shocks.
It is an exciting time to be in the suspension industry!

For those who are still wondering...yes, we are working with Magnetrheological style shocks right now, I have a set on one of my cars. No, I have no idea when anything will be released, nor any price point. Yes, I expect they will start out expensive. No, I do not expect the technology to become mainstream for quite some time. Yes, I think this technology [or something similar] will be magic...in the hands of the right tuner.
Hmmm...sounds just like every other groundbreaking product, no?

[ace_xp2]

I can see where it would be nice with air ride, I would think being able to match the progressiveness of the spring would be a big gain.