1969 Camaro RS.R - a new project from the OLC Team

[James OLC]

Well since that cat is out of the bag on this one I figured I might as well start a build thread – although it’s a bit early and the real “building” is just getting ready to start.

More than anything I guess this is an opportunity to introduce you to my new ’69 Camaro project that I am calling the Camaro RS.R – the name is in large part a homage to the light weight track oriented Porsche’s that have dominated road courses since their inception but more than anything the .R stands for something a little bit different (and repetitive) – Rally. Hopefully we can capture the spirit of both and in the end meet our goal of competing in the Targa Newfoundland Rally next fall.

I first started looking at this particular car in the summer of 2009…

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At the time I reluctantly passed since the OneLap car was starting to gain some steam and I wasn’t really sure what I needed to build at that point.

[James OLC]

Fast forward a year and a half and the car is up for sale again and now, after a couple of pretty decent outings with the OPTIMA Batteries OneLapCamaro I had some clear direction and ideas for where I needed to go.

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The car was looked to be in great shape and after talking to the owner some more and having Best of Show give it a once over I pulled the trigger and we’re on our way.

[James OLC]

So what’s the plan?

In talking to David, Mary and some other people over the holidays my best description was a modern take on a Trans Am style car – hardly a new theme for (the collective) us but more or less correct. As we talked more I realized that it was heading towards more of a Porsche RSR theme – light weight, streetable but really track oriented, and just a bit different. This car will be 90% track focused and 10% street oriented; basically it will be street legal by necessity but not by choice.

Much like the OneLapCamaro I’m building it with one clear goal - to run the Targa Newfoundland. Because of the rules of the Targa it will end up in the “Open” class (since I can’t bring myself to build a Gen 1 SBC and keep the suspension stockish) which is really ideal since the foundation for the “Open” class more or less overlaps perfectly with the “Unlimited Class” tech rules for the Silver State Classic (did I say one clear goal… maybe two clear goals)… which would still leave it legal for the One Lap of America.

Building a car for the Targa requires some sacrifices that go against some more common PT themes and presents some unique challenges. Ground clearance is a huge issue – the Targa Newfoundland is, essentially, an open road rally race on a combination of public highways and city streets so there can be some very “unique” transitions. So don’t expect an in the weeds build here with stuff hanging low beneath the car. The exhaust will be high and even to some extent in the car, and will exit a bit… unconventionally.

Big tires front and back are a given. We’re going to work with SpeedTech and use one of their subframes and Three Link rear suspensions. We’ll push the envelope a bit on the front wheels and tires maybe running something like a 295 front and back…. maybe…. DSE mini-tubs are going in now, just in case we need more room in back… just in case…

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Right now the car is at Best of Show where we’re waiting on some parts. Once they arrive they’ll swap out a rear quarter and install the mini-tubs. Then the roof comes off and the car will be shipped to Rodger at Ironworks in Bakersfield for a complete 12-point roll cage and some other “subtle” ironworks touches. The SpeedTech front and rear suspensions will go on and then we’ll work to fit a light weight clip on the car and shed whatever unneeded weight that we can.

A rendering is in the works and a few details will work themselves through as time passes but I thought it was time to let the cat out of the bag.

Hopefully this is half as fun as the OLC build (and aftermath) was.

[Damn True]

Can I call shotgun?

[Flash68]

Targa... awesome. I just watched Love the Beast last night... again.... and those Targa races look like a ton of fun.

[72mach1]

Looks like you've got a great starting point. Good luck with the build.

[MoparCar]

Very nice-I can't wait to see the progress on this one also!
Wes

[formula]

So, this, but camaro?

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I can't freakin' wait.

[67CamNKC]

Targa... awesome. I just watched Love the Beast last night... again.... and those Targa races look like a ton of fun.

X2.....My wife and I just watched it as well. The rally races were awesome.....Blind corner here, there, etc.... "Subscribed".........Looking forward to this build.

[dmc69]

nice!

[Gitter Dun]

Jim, really looking forward to this. I get the feeling this will be a true race inspired build. Cant wait to see how you tackle the ground clearance and suspension. Just a thought, but I have been trying to think of a way to create a front air dam/splitter with some sort of recoil action if it was to botttom out. What do you think?

[James OLC]

Wes I was actually thinking about an older vintage RSR but that one would do fine too :)

Gaetano I spent some time talking to a trans am / can am guru at the Pozzi's over Christmas and he had some interesting suggestions that I'll try to incorporate. I'm happy with the way that the OLCs spoiler/splitter works but I think that I'm going to build a removable one for Silver State and probably stick with a stock style spoiler for the Targa.

[CamaroAJ]

you could have also gone the vette way with the R. full race mode like the C6R.

[James OLC]

Yeah... But I was holding that back for when I can do a C2 'vette :)

[CarlC]

Every time I think of Eric and the mishap with his Beast parts of me just shiver, and other parts of me know that it's better to try than not. It's just sheetmetal, but the experience and memories.....

Very cool James. The OLC and RS.R adventures are something for us all to aspire to.

[James OLC]

That is honestly the reasoning behind this build Carl. The OLC is a great car but we're starting to run the car at the edge of it's safety envelope and after seeing some pretty bad "low" speed (150 mph) crashes last year I wanted to do a lower buck, better prepared car to move to the next level. It won't be as refined, nor will it have some of the creature comforts that the OLC has but it will be something that (a) will have the necessary safety equipment to run hard and (b) will be something that is "just sheet metal" should the unimaginable happen.

[johnny68]

man what do all you big name guys do for a living,, car after car going to all the big name shops this is way cool to watch as its going to be built boy im sure in dream land its great that you guys can keep the sport growing so much
john

[James OLC]

Honestly John I think that a lot of people are under the assumption that these "big name" shops have big dollar rates - in my experience they do not. For instance Best of Show - based on what I know and have seen - they have more experience with first gens then 90% of the body shops out there and are actually cheaper in the long run because they know exactly what they are doing. Plus, I have 100% confidence in their work... And that means a lot to me give the horror stories that are all too common. Sure they do some high profile jobs but they also do bread and butter jobs as well. Likewise Ironworks - Rodger does some absolutely over the top fab work but that's not in the cards for this car... But there isn't a tube they can't bend and their welding skills are second to none and since they have the time I would rather support him with my cage business than someone I don't know. I can't do cage work and I don't do body work any more so I'm going where I'm going to get the best bang or my buck.

And at the end of the day it's not the shop that is expensive... it's your ideas that add up.

[454bug]

Great project James! I truly enjoyed your OLC project but this is going to be fun as well!

This seems to be more in the vein of a "Streetfighter" build... I'm assuming no A/C, upgraded power steering, no back seat, a bunch of rollcage bars, etc...

I'm subscribed and looking forward to this one!! :twothumbs

[James OLC]

Yeah it will definitely be "raw" when compared to the OLC but its got a different purpose. The OLC was built to comfortably drive hour after hour after hour on the highway and then perform well on the track. The RS.R will be loud, hot and uncomfortable on long runs but will have a leg up on the track.

Figure 700 pounds lighter with a couple of hundred HP more... Jungle gym cage, liberal use if lexan and aluminum... Big fuel cell and a minimalist interior... Funky aero touches and "just ok" gaps...

It probably won't be an autocross monster but will be comfortable stretching it's legs.

[454bug]

Are you planning on a large cubic inch naturally-aspirated LS motor or will it have some kind of forced induction?

It's amazing how these naturally-aspirated LS engines can make 750 hp!

[67 ls1 vert]

I was wondering who bought Greggs car... sounds like a cool project James. Hope all goes smooth.

[CarlC]

......Big fuel cell

Oh no you don't. You need a manly-man fuel module for that bad boy, and I've got just the ticket. Come see it at RTTC.....

[James OLC]

Are you planning on a large cubic inch naturally-aspirated LS motor or will it have some kind of forced induction?

It's amazing how these naturally-aspirated LS engines can make 750 hp!

We're talking about both options right now which is why I didn't delve in to that in the introduction. Both options certainly have pros and cons but either way it is amazing how well these modern heads flow and how efficiently LS fuel injection is today.


Oh no you don't. You need a manly-man fuel module for that bad boy, and I've got just the ticket. Come see it at RTTC.....

Actually I do - rules are rules - but I don't think that precludes me from doing a VaporWorx conversion to a cell. We might have to do some talking with manufacturer's but the ability to drop one or two of your pump and controller modules into an SFI approved cell would be all kinds of awesomeness!

[johnny68]

well james looks like since im only 45 min. away from BOS i might have to swing by and take a look ive heard so many good thing about them here thanks for the eye opener
john

[CarlC]

You won't need two of the newly adapted pumps unless you get extremely silly with boost.

[Nessumsar]

James, you are building this Camaro almost exactly how I want to build my Nova; all business! I'm interested in seeing what little details you have planned out. I can't wait to see it unfold, subscribed!

[bonecrrusher]

Awesome...

[Damn True]

Cha-ching!

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Question is, how to adapt the Martini livery to the lines of a Camaro....

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[LeighP]

Nice concept.....bring it down under and run the Targa Tasmania when you're bored wit hNorth American courses, lol.

[James OLC]

Leigh - thats definitely on my bucket list and would be an awesome adventure! Maybe one day I will!
James

[bbr]

Great news James - looking forward to seeing what you come up with for this build ...

Downunder we race Tarmac Rally's like this - this is me in 2007 ... I subsequently crashed the car in 2008 and we're undergoing a full rebuild ..

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Now that has to be more fun than killin' cones :) ..

A racing buddy of mine one the first Targa Newfoundland in his '67 Mustang - wild car - 600hp, Hollinger sequential gearbox, watts link, Penske coilovers !!

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Some changes in the rules Downunder here meant he had to build a new '69 car - so he built a new one and then subsequently built another one to a more extreme specification - 600+hp 347, Hollinger 5 speed, fully fabricated suspension, Penske coilovers, interior adjustable sway bars ..

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Here's where we are up to with my rebuild ... Would love to see you Downunder - Come down and race us - we're a friendly bunch off the roads :) .... If you need any info on the rules and regs down here feel free to let me know and I'll help as best I can.

These photos were a couple of months ago - should be ready in another couple of months.

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For those of you that have seen Love the Beast - well Eric Bana is nearing the completion of the rebuild !! A couple of photo's here - can;t say I have ever seen bracing like this on a diff before !! But at least he took Jeremy Clarkson's advise and got rid of the leaf springs !!

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[rogue]

badass car. love the airborne shot.

[T_Raven]

Loved watching the OLC get built. Can't wait to watch this one.

[JV69z/28]

Can't wait to see the rendering and look foward to following the build.

[formula]

I'm with True--I think a set of custom repro fuchs or crazy BBS gold spokes and some modified martini livery is in order.

This is going to be a very exciting build, methinks--nice to see an emphasis on safety is becoming more prominent as P-T cars continue to become more and more capable.

[bonecrrusher]

Great news James - looking forward to seeing what you come up with for this build ...

Downunder we race Tarmac Rally's like this - this is me in 2007 ... I subsequently crashed the car in 2008 and we're undergoing a full rebuild ..

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/02/Bbr651-1.jpg

You dont happen to be that guy in Love the Beast talking about his Mustang do you?

[Payton King]

Glad to see another great car going together. Look forward to watching the progress.

On the exhaust...always thought it would be cool to remove the side cowl area and place mufflers there and have them exit out the lower side of the front fender like the McLaren SLR. I would think if you vented the under hood heat out the back of the fender it would keep the mufflers cool and it would not be so hot in the foot well.

[James OLC]

I have a pretty decent plan for the exhaust now but that would be cool - although it ends up putting more weight up front which I am going to try to do.

The ideas are coming together - it's going to be a matter of making them work in something that can accomplish the goals without going... well... you know.

[ironworks]

Well The One Lap 69 Camaro got picked up from it's drop off point in Irvine about a month and a half ago. The Speedtech stuff suspension system had arrived and we are working to get everything installed. We installed some DSE mini tubs and subframe connectors in the car and are getting the subframe mounted to the body without the subframe bushings. This will lower the car just a bit more. We Installed a Fab 9 rear axle housing on to the Speedtech torque are set up. James is selecting the seats he wants to run so we can measure for the steering column and begin rollcage construction. Last I heard James was thinking about having us try to stuff a 315 tire under the front suspension. I'm not sure if that is still the case or now. Then once that front tire with is figured we will set up the rear axle to fit the same tire all around and have the same backspace to be able to only care one spare tire. UUUMMMM Smart guy huh? Well enough BS, Lets see some pictures.

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[Nessumsar]

I was just thinking about this car the other day, glad to see an update on it.

I do hope James decides on the monster meats, if for no other reason than to have something to compare my car to... :)

[John Wright]

love it...

[Gandalf]

Bring it James! :-)

[James OLC]

Well I have some good news and some bad news... and some good news...

The good news is that the RS.R project is gaining some momentum and Rodger and the crew at Ironworks are making some great headway on the car. It should bea roller next week and then it's on to the more fab side of things.

The "bad news" is that I have had to rethink the project and there are going to be some changes - both in scope and purpose - for the car and the Targa Newfoundland is probably not in the cards.

The good news is that the car has a new nickname... OLC2

Mary and I had a couple of long 1 am talks about what it would take to make the '69 a top 10 OLOA contender and I think we have a pretty good plan now. Not much will change from the original plan but we will be a bit more aggressive with the ride height and might make allowances for a couple of creature comforts. We'll also, to a certain extent, build the car around tires. We (I) made a mistake with tires this year so next year (and the year after) we will be much more focused on tire choice and availability.

And for what it's worth... the '67 will be running the One Lap next year and the '69 will be 2013... once we gave the bugs sorted out. Unless some miracles happen... Then maybe... Who knows...

[68KMARO]

Great stuff!!!! Keep us posted


rich

[James OLC]

and for those paying attention, the car made it's magazine debut in this months Camaro Performers magazine... it's ironic that I have seen the car in pictures and in print but, for what it's worth, I haven't actually seen the cay myself yet... LOL

[Ron.in.SoCal]

This...


Mary and I had a couple of long 1 am talks about what it would take to make the '69 a top 10 OLOA contender and I think we have a pretty good plan now. Not much will change from the original plan but we will be a bit more aggressive with the ride height and might make allowances for a couple of creature comforts. We'll also, to a certain extent, build the car around tires. We (I) made a mistake with tires this year so next year (and the year after) we will be much more focused on tire choice and availability.

...

I'd love to hear more about this James?

[James OLC]

Ron, I assume that it's the tire deal that you're referring to...

Before this years one lap we (I) chose to run Goodyear f1 super car g2 tires based mostly on Mark S's recommendation. We talked about it at sema and followed up over the winter and his feedback was that (a) they were faster than ps2's hot and (b) they were pretty bad cold. I weighted the pros and cons and looked at the schedule and made the decision to run them hoping to change things up and maybe get lucky.

We didn't.

There were a couple of disagvantages that I hadn't counted on.... 1. They were awful cold, 2. They were heavy (they are run flats), 3. The sidewalls were very stiff (they are run flats), 4. They were completely different than anything we had run before. As a result, they made our recon laps (at times) downright terrifying and we never really got a feel for the tires. The ps2s were very predictable and gave you great feedback, these were not as kind. With more time I am sure that we could have adapted to the style/feedback but since the race is the first were of May the temperature aspect is tough to get around.

This year the ticket seemed to be the new pilot's (based on results and discussions with tire rack staff) so we're (I'm) making the decision to build the car to use the best possible one lap tires above all ther considerations.

Might be right... Might be wrong...

[CarlC]

Without the right tire you cannot be competetive. Simple.

Getting the right tire and keeping the contact patch maximized at all times? Not so simple.

Getting the right tire, keeping the contact patch maximized, while keeping the vehicle weight to a minimum? (Not so simple)^2

Getting the right tire, keep the contact patch maximized, minimum vehicle weight, and compete against the modern machinery in the OLoA? (Not so simple)^4

[Ron.in.SoCal]

^ Thx James. That's good feedback. I was under the impression Mark loved 'em and they were the next good thing. Q for you: do the Goodyears come in the non run flat version?

[James OLC]

Like I said - Mark really liked them... above 60 degrees; below he felt that 60 they seemed to trail behind the michelins. Unfortunately (but not unexpectedly) for us, half of the one lap events occur in the morning when it's cooler so it was tough to get enough heat in them. I think they would be better with two recon laps to warm them up. When we were shock testing/tuning the RideTech coil overs at streets of willow we found that they were not only pretty good on the track but that they were wearing more like an r888 than a ps2 (we were getting them warm enough). Jimi and Steve were running the first gen tires (also rof) and they seemed more responsive for them but they also finished the week with the rears worn down to the nubs.

They are not available in non rof with the same compound and tread pattern.

[bonecrrusher]

Janes - what about these:

http://www.corvetteblogger.com/2011/04/28/first-look-2012-corvette-cup-wheels-and-michelin-sport-cup-tires/

Michelin Pilot Sport Cup ZP tires - I am not sure on the size or specs yet though...

[James OLC]

The Pilot Sport Cup tires don't meet the rules for the event. There is an "approved" list of tires that we can choose from - all of which are non-competition rated. Keep in mind that one of the only rules for the One Lap of America is that you have to finish the event on the same tires you started with and you can only change them if you have a puncture or other catastrophic failure. Since you have to run the the entire week on one set of tires you have to hedge your bets a bit as well - we run rain or shine so while there may be some excellent dry tires available as options (ie the Kuhmo XS) but you have to think about their wet performance as well. I had to run Summit Point in the rain this year and while I had no real issues, it was a bit hairy in places.

[James OLC]

Just seeing if anyone is paying attention...

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Construction continues at Ironworks, working on fitting front wheels/tires now while we wait for roll cage materials and the fuel cell...

[John Wright]

Are planning to paint it a solid color and then add the wrap like you did with the current OLC?

[Gandalf]

Just seeing if anyone is paying attention...

Absafreakinlootly paying attention :-) Bring it!
Wicked look in the rendering. Diggin' the side detail on the fenders.
G.

[James OLC]

Are planning to paint it a solid color and then add the wrap like you did with the current OLC?

Exactly. I didn't want to get hung up on paint and graphics, etc. at this point because I am really enjoying the way that we've been able to change up the '67 every year. We'll start it with a good base and, in an ideal world, work on a new wrap every year.

[Nessumsar]

Finally, a car with some lip on the front! Glad to hear its moving forward, next time we need pictures though! :)

[James OLC]

something like:

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[Nessumsar]

Thats better! :cheers:

[sik68]

Very cool project, James. Do you expect your spring & shock rates to be significantly higher compared with OLC?

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

nice!!

[Smock67]

Rendering looks bitchin' but i love gunmetals and charcoal colors.

[James OLC]

Steven - we're not sure on shocks/spring right now. SpeedTech has a great setup on their Nova using the RideTech shocks and we're going to use that as a starting point. Hopefully we're going to be significantly lighter but we'll be able to tune for that when we're on the ground.

Here is an update from Rodger at Ironworks posted over at Lat-G:


Well I will share some of the work we have been doing lately on this project.

We have the cowl vent cut out from under than dash and smoothing up the cowl vents from the car. This will give more interior room for the rollcage and steering dash bars.

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We got the brackets on the housing welded in place and custom made the bracket to land the torque arm on the Fab 9 axle housing.

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We are working on figuring out exactly what has to be done to put 315 tires all the way around. We are getting closer. Some mock up pics of tires we have around the shop.

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We are waiting on the pedal assembly and getting the fuel cell set up figured on on the car also. Hopefully the Bullet will arrive from GM performance parts any day. :D :D

[johnny68]

awesome james looking great glad to hear your using blakes stuff
john

[mpozzi]

I'm hoping to go to Ironworks this week and see the car again. On paper, the OLC2 has "winner" written all over it and I'm positive it's going to drive just as good. More adjustments and function, less pretty and show car ... gotta love it.

Cheers,
Mary Pozzi

[James OLC]

Nothing to see here.... move along....

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[johnny68]

why sure there is James theres a nova in the rafters a hood on the ground an air hose,a straight edge a blue door the start of a wider front fend OHHHH transition into the door
john

[robertjra]

wow love it wish i had a shop to put all of the cool sheet metal tools in and make that kind of stuff!!

[RicerwannaB]

Awesome, Looks great man! I cant wait to follow the progress!

[James OLC]

moving along:

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[CarlC]

That widening is nicely done.

Are there going to be any roof height adjustments for helmet clearance?

[James OLC]

There is some more massaging to be done and a couple of other tweaks to the fenders should move us to where we need to be with size, aero, and cooling so it's great to see it come together.

We'll gain some roof clearance since I won't be running a conventional headliner but we'll have to see how the sparco seat positions everything to be sure. For the drivers seat we're running a fixed back FIA approved seat on sliders and for the passenger side we'll have an adjustable seat that is set up to recline enough to satisfy even the most vocal navigator...

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

bulging muscles.. i love it

[John Wright]

Are there going to be any roof height adjustments for helmet clearance?putting a Bubble in the top?....LOL

[sik68]

I have Sparco pro2000's on sliders and side mounts...I'm 5'6 and my helmet touches the headlinder FYI. I am thinking about removing the side mounts and bolting the seat bottom directly to the sliders to lower them further.

[David Pozzi]

Nothing to see here.... move along....

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
That looks great!

[Chad-1stGen]

Very cool build. Do you plan to eventually retire/sell the 67 OLC and use this in future OLOA's when completed?

[preston]

Really like that approach to widening - a really fresh way of doing it, seems very integrated in the second picture.

But why stop at 315's ?

Also wonder if you can truly be competitive without moving the engine back. What is the weight balance of the OLC ?

Also full steel body --- Did you say 700 lbs lighter than OLC ? Sounds optimistic. Very optimistic.

[James OLC]

Very cool build. Do you plan to eventually retire/sell the 67 OLC and use this in future OLOA's when completed?

Thanks Chad - the '67 will run the OLoA next year and then I'll look to phase it out (of competition) over the course of the year. The '69 will become the workhorse and the '67 will be for fun or ?


Really like that approach to widening - a really fresh way of doing it, seems very integrated in the second picture.

But why stop at 315's ?

Also wonder if you can truly be competitive without moving the engine back. What is the weight balance of the OLC ?

Also full steel body --- Did you say 700 lbs lighter than OLC ? Sounds optimistic. Very optimistic.

Preston - the rational behind the front tires is two fold - one, with the body mods for the 315's I don't have to do anything in back, to go bigger would require reworking the quarters to balance the car and I'm just not at that point with this build and two, I need to keep the front wheel diameter within 3% of a reference for technical considerations to be discussed at a later date. The current OLC is 53/47 front to rear; we might move the engine back a bit but (probably) not enough to be considered significant. As far as weight goes, at 3,600 +/- dry (no driver) the '67 has a ton of non-core weight - 200+ pounds of sound deadener, glass, heavy seats, stock sub, etc. I'm confident that 3,000 to 3,100 in race trim will be doable without much serious effort. The last 100 to 200 is probably optimistic but we're going to be trying some different things to get there (I don't think that I said that it was going to be all steel)... on the flip side, some new technical consideration (as mentioned above) favor losing slightly less weight vs more.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

yea man, please dont get rid of the 67.. its practically Iconic now.

[Gitter Dun]

Everything looks like its headed in the right direction. The stretch job for the 315's was a fantastic idea. With all trials and tribulations of past projects its awesome to see how far we've come. Cant wait to see this one complete!!

[James OLC]

I doubt the '67 will ever be far away - but it's served its purpose and exceeded my expectations in many respects. That being said, by "modern" standards it's down on power, could use a diet, and (as Mary so often reminds me) needs more front tire. All of these things can be done but I'd prefer to keep the car as is and build a(nother) purpose built One Lap car... this time with a better understand of what it's going to take to really excel in the event. There are a couple of more things that I would like to accomplish with the car - and hopefully I will - but there is some heavy hardware being prepared for the OLoA and lately it seems like I've been the knife at the gun fight...

[Vegas69]

Things have come a long way in a short period of time. James, you and a handful have alot to do with that. We both know the deficiencies that are already putting us behind the bus. Weight and front tire being a HUGE part of it. Stielow is devils advocate. He has a curb weight of 3617 and a 275mm front tire. Hell of a driver, tons of power, and a perfectly balanced chassis in all events. I think I'll keep tweaking on mine for a while longer but don't think my wheels aren't spinning.

[j-rho]

Why don't you put the engine in the back seat? It'll solve the front weight problem, massively reduce polar moment, and it's not like there are any rules anyway...

[James OLC]

Things have come a long way in a short period of time. James, you and a handful have alot to do with that. We both know the deficiencies that are already putting us behind the bus. Weight and front tire being a HUGE part of it. Stielow is devils advocate. He has a curb weight of 3617 and a 275mm front tire. Hell of a driver, tons of power, and a perfectly balanced chassis in all events. I think I'll keep tweaking on mine for a while longer but don't think my wheels aren't spinning.

You're 100% right about Mark's car Todd - and likewise I think that he is 100% correct as well.

When I was discussing my plans for OLC2 with a few people I stood up an a very short soapbox and essentially said that we've gotten to the point that "we" are over powered which forces us to be over tired and over braked for our relative talent levels. "Our" cars are not at a significant disadvantage due to weight vs. similarly equipped modern muscle or sports cars (I honestly don't think that overall weight is as huge a deal as we make it out to be - until you are making a true, hard core competition car (which I don't consider most OLoA cars to be)). "Our" cars are not at a significant disadvantage due to power vs. modern muscle or sports cars. Nor brakes. Nor tires (in fact we generally have an advantage in the tire department). Where "we" generally lack are the modern car's engineering advantages which, in the hands of less skilled drivers, can be (and I'll argue are) a huge advantage. Styling aside, "we" (at least the less skilled of us) turn to power, and tires, and brakes to help make up some of that differential (both in technology and ability). Last year at the OLOA wrap-up party someone made the remark that there should be a "handicapped" class to stick some of the more outstanding drivers in to balance things out. The response was that the class already existed; it was just called "Vintage".

I will be the first to admit that I am the weakest link of the OLC as it sits right now. I have seen the car driven by the Pozzi's often enough to see how it performs in the hands of gifted amateurs. Some days I'm close; one day I hope to be very close. I have also seen the car driven by true professionals and seen what the car can do. I watched in awe as Mark Hotchkis obliterated a set of R888's in five laps at Willow Springs. I can only dream about having that level of talent and both Mary and I hope to take some steps to improve both of our road course skills before next year’s OLOA.

Right now, we have the same horsepower, wheels, and tires (with a bit more weight) as a modern Z06 and at OLOA we can (and did - driver's attention span willing) beat the Corvette if it's being driven by someone of similar talent. So it's not like it's a huge disparity. But where we lack - where I lack - is technology and talent. In talking about the OLC2 I was looking at World Challenge cars as my inspiration and I wasn't going to go with the "biggest" tires I could on the front... or the "biggest" brakes... or 1,000 HP. I wanted to keep the car balanced, well-engineered, and easy to drive (like it or not, I think that in some cases we are making our cars harder to drive than they need to be).

But, long story short, I still need a crutch to overcome the talent differential. If you look at the top 3 finishers in this year’s OLOA, two of them were on the podium at Road America a couple of weeks ago; one of them went on to drive Carl Edwards car in the Nationwide race the day after and the other won the Rolex GT race at Laguna last weekend in a Brumos Porsche. We’re talking about a huge talent differential – one that I won’t be able to overcome without some help. Not that they are (to my knowledge) going to be jumping into my class any time soon, but I do know of an ZR1 powered (and braked) Tri-5 which is heading our way (they finished 4th or 5th this year in a GTR).

The 315's are going on because one of the biggest issues with the '67 was that if you overdrive a corner it pushes and once you've stuffed the biggest tire you can under the front it's hard to go bigger without serious modifications. So I'll built it to house 315's. For events like the Silver State and other "straight line" type events, I'll fit a narrower tire under the front. If it's built for bigger I can always go smaller; I can't go the other way.

The weight is coming off because it will be easier on the tires and easier to relocate weight where I need to to balance the car. My old '67 was an ex super stock drag car and weighted in at 3,200 with me in it (in street trim). In testing the best it ever hooked was when I put a cast iron intake off an Oldsmobile in the trunk - that's where it wanted the weight. So we'll built it as light as possible and see in testing where it wants weight for balance (if anywhere); weight - easy to add, hard to remove.

[Flash68]

James, great post man.

On the forums everyone constantly focuses on all of the car's potential, its horsepower, its bad ass suspension, tires, etc etc... but even though it occasionally comes up, it doesn't come up enough, and you nailed it... if you're competing in events.. any event... it's mostly driver, which is a direct function of experience and pure talent.

And I like how you have acknowledged this and are working toward improvement, and even more rare, building a car with all of this built in mind. From what I can tell, THAT concept is new or unheard of, at least in our circle.

Keep it up. And thanks.

[Nessumsar]

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with that one James.

Really the only thing that our cars are lacking, in the this day and age, are electronic nannies; and even some of our cars now have them.

I am really excited to see where your current build goes from here.

[j-rho]

With typical balance, a 3600lb. first gen is going to have about 2000lbs. on the front, 1600 on the rear. Does 1000 pounds on a 275 in front, and 800 pounds on a 345 in the rear, sound like a good balance to anybody? Sure the rears have to apply power too, but it doesn't take much power to maintain speed through a corner.

Even these great modern cars we aspire to, get a lot better with more front tire - I've raced Corvettes and Vipers that come stock with 275s in front - they get TONS better with more front tire. Going from 315s to 335s on the Viper made a big difference in autocross, and that car only has 49% of its weight on the nose.

James, the best way to build up driving skill is to drive something simple and already near perfect - a stock C5 Z06 is a good example. A great one costs less than many here spend on a paint job, and it can teach you tons about what a well-balanced car feels like, and allow you to focus on learning how to drive since you aren't constantly fixing things. The same could be said of a Honda S2000 or Mazda Miata - with those two helping teach you more about maintaining speed, which is still important even when you have lots of power. I recommend autocross - real autocross like SCCA, BMW Club or Porsche Club - not the rinky-dink stuff at the car shows - as a place to really learn how to explore the limits, without fear of death and destruction.

I covered a bit of this a while ago in my blog:
http://www.rhoadescamaro.com/build/?p=338

It sounds like you are on the right track to learning to go faster. And I wouldn't confuse talent with skill - sure, there are some that can hop in a car with little driving experience and go fast - but the majority of really fast people started off average, and got to where they are through lots of hard work and good, directed, and measured, practice.

[sik68]

I had been somewhat incredulous about this latest undertaking, but that is a great explanation. I admire your commitment to OLoA and hope OLC2 is the right tool for the job.

[frojoe]

And at the end of the day it's not the shop that is expensive... it's your ideas that add up.

This might be the best quote I've heard in quite some time, one of the reasons I do everything myself, so that I don't feel bad trying new things even if they don't work it... it was "only my time".

Verrrry cool to see a Targa style car in the works, I've been waiting with baited breath for the Targa BC to come to fruition, although that might not be the best thing for progress & "project direction" on a yet-to-be-driven car intended mainly for street, haha.

Joe

[Payton King]

Really looking forward to more progress in this thread. Should be a great car!

Trying to keep it within 3%...must be going with ABS.

[Sean111]

If weight distribution is an issue, why not use a C5 or C6 transaxle set up? A T56/TR6060 or 4L60E can handle a decent amount of power.

[James OLC]

I don't really have a huge issue with the distribution... I would like to get it closer to 49/51 - which I don't think will be an issue - but am honestly not concerned enough to make the cubic investment to achieve it. I think that it's another "target" that just isn't as important as it's made out to be in the context of what I need. To put it in perspective, four of the top 5 overall cars in this year's OLOA had 53/47 weight distribution, weighed 3,700 pounds+, and ran on rear tires that were smaller than 295's.

[454bug]

Great progress and planning James!!

It looks like you are covering your bases to compete with the more modern rides except for ABS and a racing style traction control...

It really looks like you are gearing up for an ABS installation. I really don't remember if you ever gave an explanation why you initially purchased the Racelogic Traction Control setup for your '67 OLC and then sold the kit before installing it... Can you enlighten us on why your direction changed at that time and are you possibly considering it again on this car to give your car a little more technology to compete with the newer rides? Other than your desire for more seat time and experience, it would seem you have covered your bases on creating a competitive car...

[James OLC]

The issue that I ran in to with the RaceLogic was (is) entirely related to the ECM that I'm running (which also happens to be the biggest single disappointment the I have with the car). The MSD (formerly UMI, now Painless Wiring) harness and MEFI4B controller is batch fire and the RaceLogic controller works by controlling injector pulses (rather than spark) but... of course... it's not compatible with batch fire. Traction Control notwithstanding... the one thing that I will change with the car one day will (I hope) be the controller.

And yes... I'm looking at TC and ABS on the new car. Todd G. and I were discussing some options a couple of weeks ago and he laid out a very doable path... I'm looking the best way to do it but I thing it can be done...

[TheBandit]

James, thanks for posting all the info on your builds past and present as well as your great observations on driving. I really enjoy reading through your posts!

[sokoloka]

Just seeing if anyone is paying attention...

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Construction continues at Ironworks, working on fitting front wheels/tires now while we wait for roll cage materials and the fuel cell...

Any updates on this badboy?

And just out of curiousity - did you ever do a rendering when you were still planning on a targa style build?

[James OLC]

Well it's been a while and a couple of things have developed. The GM Performance Parts LSA is in... and out... and in... and out... and in again. We've moved it back a bit and are working on tweaking the firewall now. The Tremec T-56 Magnum is in with a QT bellhousing and we've got the custom 1 7/8 Stainless Works headers together as well. We're getting close on the cage now and I think that will probably start to come together shortly; we're going to end up working from the pedals back to make sure that everything is placed right so it may be a bit of a process.

The Chicane LM Floater arrived yesterday so Rodger will get that in, get everything trued up and start on the subframe connectors as well.

Floater porn:

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[ironworks]

I guess it is about time for another update. We have been plugging away on James's Project. We moved the engine back some 4-5" I think when it was all said and done. This mod required us to just fabricate a complete new firewall. We also taper the sides of the firewall to make the air exit thought the intended side vents a bit easier. We set up to hang the Wilwood pedal assembly with the DBW gas pedal. We constructed a really nice 1.75" rollcage and are currently working on adding the 1.5" supporting bars. The Speedtech torque arm and front suspension are pretty much completely installed. We installed the DSE subframe connectors to go with it also. Upon moving the engine back we also had to clearance the subframe to clear the alternator. Hopefully we will have some mock up wheels so we can see how the 315's on all 4 corners are going to fit. Enough talking here are some pics.

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[ironworks]

And a few more

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Enjoy

[ironworks]

And a few more

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Enjoy

[paulgurley]

This thing is going to be awesome I can't wait for more updates! Subscribed :twothumbs

[j-rho]

With all due respect to those involved - I don't understand those bars in the engine compartment that so many people use. Are those just for show, to hang things like shock reservoirs off of? This appears better than most in that they're tied into the bar under the dash, but it still seems like any vertical or lateral forces from the subframe up front, are going to translate into a bending moment of that long bar at its mount point - a force vector it is ill positioned to counter. The only thing it seems to have a chance of combating is fore/aft movement of the front subframe relative to the cage, but even that ability is compromised with the "pre-failed" bent bar.

Why not take the bend out of that down-bar, making it a straight shot of tube, with the forces involved more tension & compression, vs. bending? Even something attaching in at the upper control arm/shock mount point, could be effective if done with straight tubing.

[James OLC]

Thanks for posting Rodger - the OLC2 project has been coming along really well over the last couple of months!

The cage is being built to FIA Specs following the NASA Rally Sport rule set - this should make it legal for just about anything we're planning on doing. One Lap (no cage rules), SSCC up to Unlimited Tech, Targa Newfoundland, The Chihuahua Express, Pikes Peak, and just about anything in between. It's about as tight as Rodger could get it and with the foundation done now the rest will be coming together.

The engine setback is huge and is presenting a few challenges but nothing that I think will be an issue. We've put together a one-off set of stainless header that should do the trick but steering bits need some thought.

The dash is a lightweight version of Marquez's dash that he built for us. We'll be running it along with some half height door panels and a RacePak IQ3 dash.

Tires will probably be the same as the OLC.R - 325/30s in the back and 305/30's up front. 325's will probably fit but potentially pose issues with the ABS.

[James OLC]

Jason,

The subframe itself is welded to the floor and via the subframe connectors so there isn't much a bending moment influencing the engine compartment bars (outside of catastrophic "failure"). That being said there are a couple of more bars to be added for additional support of the upper shock mounts, etc. Anything that minimizes flex is advantageous and there is certainly more than one way to skin a cat but packaging considerations have some influence on the options. David did some work on a '69 Trans Am cage and noticed some torsional balances that were somewhat counterintuitive. This is tried and true and will work well for us.

[James OLC]

Lots of progress on the cage...

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If 1 picture says a 1000 words, This should be enough. Broc has done an awesome job on the rollcage in this car.

[James OLC]

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[James OLC]

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[James OLC]

The roll cage is just about finished and ready for welding...

Roof bars are in and tied to the V bars in back

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and the taco gussets are in where the rules require.

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You can also see an "extra" bar in the footwell for some extra protection.

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[srh3trinity]

So, you have the coolest 67 around and now you are well on your way to having the baddest 69. When is the 68 build going to happen?

[FRENCHBLUE72]

Beautiful cage work/..

[James OLC]

I can post more pics if anyone is interested... The majority of the cage was welded together outside of the car to ensure that even the tightest spots were fully welded.

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[coolwelder62]

Way Cool!!!!!!Brock does an awesome job.The sheet metal work is over the top.

[Smock67]

Wow that is some top notch welding on a sick purpose built 69. Those welds look like a stack of dimes got knocked over into a perfect line.

[rustomatic]

One day, when I grow up, I would like to be able to weld like that--to me, that is art. I'd probably spend the whole day doing it, and feel awesome when finished. The third degree should not be a PhD, but a certification for Tiggin' skills; the world would be so much better as a result...

[parsonsj]

Sweet welding!!!

[andrewb70]

Great progress. HOw come you are going with a T56 Magnum instead of a more race oriented transmission and clutch package?

Andrew

[James OLC]

Great progress. HOw come you are going with a T56 Magnum instead of a more race oriented transmission and clutch package?

Andrew

I have been running a Magnum since three first came out and with the Centerforce DYAD clutch it's been about bulletproof. I started with an overpriced "race" transmission and found it t be a bit of a pain on the street and (and on the track when cold) and found the company to be really bad to deal with. No such complaints with tremec. Plus the 6-speed is of significant value to me (over a 4 or 5) in the same way a "street clutch" is.

[T.K.]

Just out of curiosity did you consider IRS before choosing the Fab9, if so what made you decide to go with the straight axle?

[patoke]

Any updates of this car?

[James OLC]

Any updates of this car?

Nope, it will probably be a while before there's anything

[srh3trinity]

They are in the midst of getting the OneLap Camaro ready for the upcoming OLOA. That has probably slowed this one down.

[Buryingthesun]

Nope, it will probably be a while before there's anything

ok its been a while. . .

[James OLC]

Yeah it has. The car is sitting out beside the shop now and, in all honesty, probably won't be getting much attention for a while. I'm hoping that I can salvage the project but in all honestly my heart's just not in it right now.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

awww sheyt.. did "scope creep" happen?

[James OLC]

I wish scope creep was the problem... I've dealt with scope creep before.

For me building cars is (has been) a passion - challenges to be overcome, new ideas to turn in to reality, an opportunity to turn a spark in to fire... Well there's been a bucket of water poured on this particular spark. Call it another lesson learned.

I'll work a solution out over time but at this point, unfortunately, I don't know what it is. I have a couple of ideas but I don't know...

[shortrack]

Lesson learned? what was the water?

[keithq69]

It's unfortunate that this project has taken this turn. I've always enjoyed your builds.
Maybe others can benefit from what happened to stall this project, you've always been successful in the past with ambitious projects.
What about selling it and having someone else finish it, seeing it finished may help ease whatever frustration has stalled the project yo begin with.
I hope you work it out somehow.

Keith.

[Buryingthesun]

It's unfortunate that this project has taken this turn. I've always enjoyed your builds.
Maybe others can benefit from what happened to stall this project, you've always been successful in the past with ambitious projects.
What about selling it and having someone else finish it, seeing it finished may help ease whatever frustration has stalled the project yo begin with.
I hope you work it out somehow.

Keith.


To have another man "finish it" would not be in my scope, if I died today I would not want anyone to finish my build due to the fact my vision is in my mind, not on paper... There are no instructions on how to build it. Especially due to the fact if I don't like how a part of it looks I can modify my vision to adapt.

[keithq69]

I guess it depends how much you still care about the project.
I'd rather see it finished than sitting forever.
I've sold a project before that didn't get finished the way I would have done it but its the other guys car now so that's life.

Anyways, I hope James works it out somehow.

[James OLC]

It's unfortunate that this project has taken this turn. I've always enjoyed your builds.
Maybe others can benefit from what happened to stall this project, you've always been successful in the past with ambitious projects.
What about selling it and having someone else finish it, seeing it finished may help ease whatever frustration has stalled the project yo begin with.
I hope you work it out somehow.

Keith.

Thanks Keith - I have too. And I agree that it's unfortunate and maybe it will still come around - I don't know. The car will certainly get done (one way or another) but it won't be the The Car and it's probably not going to be the OLC2. I hope that it will still be a cool build and I hope that it will still represent well.

I've certainly considered selling it but I doubt that is a viable option. Cars are either "mine" or they are not so if I were to sell it, I'd have no attachment, positive or negative, to what the buyer did with it. It would give me no real satisfaction is seeing the car completed if it wasn't me that saw it through.

That said, I will regroup on the project, map out the solutions, and get back to it in due course.

[chevette]

Maybe you could purchase a condo for it at "The Dens" in Springbank. It would stay nice and cozy there while you regroup.