Rebuilding my engine! [Archive]

DarkoNova

02-02-2011, 07:11 PM

So a few weeks ago I decided I would get a new oil pan gasket and rear main seal for my 350 just to stop the oil leaks. Then I got an awesome deal on some Edelbrock Performer RPM heads and thought "since I'm already tearing the motor apart, why not go all the way?" :smoke:

So now I'm going to pull the engine to replace the rings (not only does it leak oil, it burns oil, too!) and the main bearings (try to boost the oil pressure).

I'm starting this a little early since I only have the heads right now and I haven't even pulled the engine, but I just have some questions and I'm hoping to get some help.

The heads have this weird looking spring inside the valve springs. Not sure if it's a dual spring setup or if it's a damper spring or what. It's like thick and flat compared to the outer spring. I can get pics if needed, just hoping someone will know what I'm talking about.

Also, I wanted to use this opportunity to go to roller rockers, but I don't feel like paying $250+ for a set. What do you guys think of these:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-17002-16/

I'm basically going to use this thread for random questions for the next couple weeks until I can find someone who will let me borrow an engine hoist and get the engine torn apart lol. Then it will really become a rebuild thread. :)

WS6

02-02-2011, 07:35 PM

You'll be fine using a stamped rocker with roller tips if you don't want to spend the money on a full roller. You can spend money in better places than with full roller rockers. There's nothing wrong with them so if you want them go for it. I'd just make sure you don't cut a corner elsewhere to get these rockers.

The part inside your springs are not springs like you'd fine in a dual valve spring. I honestly don't know the official name for them. I believe they prevent coil bind.

Good luck with the build. It was smart to start this thread early. Take your time on the engine and do it right but don't get caught up in all the hype as you build and blow your budget. You don't need the fanciest parts to build a great and durable motor.

DarkoNova

02-14-2011, 08:52 PM

Yeah, I know I don't need the full roller rockers, but I figure for roughly $200, why not? :razz:

Anyhoo, I finally managed to get an engine hoist yesterday and got the engine pulled. I started tearing it apart today and found some pieces under the valve cover. Looks like one of the inner springs (the coil bind things, whatever they're called) somehow exploded. I've only found two big pieces, and none of the springs look damaged so far (but it was kinda dark outside, so maybe tomorrow I can get a better look). One of the pushrods was also damaged on the passenger side head. The tip under the rocker arm somehow like...folded in on itself? There was no oil hole at the top. I'll get a pic tomorrow, but I'm actually glad I decided to pull this thing. The engine wasn't making any noises or running rough, which is pretty miraculous.

All the cylinders actually still have crosshatching on them, too. I want to say I put about 60,000 miles on the engine since I bought it from my friend, so I thought that was pretty amazing, lol.

Anyway, question time. I bought some used Edelbrock Performer RPM heads on ebay. The guy said he had them milled for higher compression. He doesn't remember how much, unfortunately, so I'm going to have to buy a CC kit and figure out the size of the chambers. But my question is, since the heads have been milled, will I have to do anything to my intake manifold or will it still bolt on ok?

theRG

02-14-2011, 10:59 PM

The 351w in my '69 Mach 1 came with those rockers and i really liked them, low maintenance, didn't bind, or hit the stock height valve covers.

Those valve springs are singles with a dampner. If your going with a new cam, just get the matching springs or have a machine shop test the springs on the Edelbrock heads to see if they are suitable for your application and also for the price a machine shop cc'ing your chambers will save you some time and money. Unless they angle milled the heads big time the intake shouldn't have any problems bolting up.

DarkoNova

02-15-2011, 07:33 PM

Well I was trying to avoid having to go to a machine shop since I don't have a car right now and I have to bum rides off of people. Here's a pic of the heads from the ebay listing showing the combustion chambers.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/02/Screenshot20110215at72553PM-1.png

I've never milled heads before so I don't know if that's "extreme" or if that's typical?

Summit sells a few kits for CC-ing heads for around $100 or less, so I was just going to get one of those and do it myself. If I can find a local shop that doesn't charge too much I might just take the heads down and get em checked out.

Anyway, I got the engine torn down to basically just a long block and I'm wondering if my way of measuring is going to be accurate enough. I have a 6" inside/outside caliper, and I was basically just going to pull the crank and pistons out and then measure the outside diameter of the pistons and the inside diameter of the cylinders and compare the two. Same thing for the crank journals. I know in school we used these little telescopic "T" shaped tools and we measured the cylinders more towards the center/bottom.

Will the calipers be accurate enough? I figure it's more accurate for the crank journals than just using plastigauge, but I want to be sure.

Jims78elky

02-15-2011, 07:43 PM

I think it would be very smart to take the heads to your local shop to have them checked out, just to be sure,maybe have them shaved just a little to be sure there clean and no issues, Iam sure there OK but for a $100 bucks or so on your new build its just good sense, also have you seen these guys? great prices on parts that I have got from them and good shipping,check out the price for these roller rockers in the $200.00 price range, keep up the great work!

https://shop.enginekits.com/osb/itemdetails.cfm?ID=1000

-Jim

WS6

02-18-2011, 12:25 PM

calipers will not be enough to properly measure the bore of a cylinder. You could only use calipers to give you a quick answer to whether an engine has been bored out or not.

Let the machine shop do the CCing of the heads. They should be able to tell you from that how much the heads have been milled. If the heads have truly been milled for compression, then the intake will need work as well most likely. However, people sometimes refer to decking the heads as milling. Decking is done to ensure the heads are flat so they seal correctly. While the process is very similar to milling a head, milling is done to raise compression not ensure the heads are flat or true. CCing the heads will answer all these questions accurately.

61ragtop

02-18-2011, 01:20 PM

DarkoNova

09-29-2011, 07:11 PM

Well, due to problems with my job, I had to hold off on doing any work to the engine. I finally dropped the heads off at a shop a couple weeks ago and I'm going to pick them up tomorrow. I guess Trey was right, they weren't actually milled. Most likely just decked. The shop said the chambers were still 64cc. I'm actually kinda bummed, I was hoping for an easy way to bump the compression, lol.

So, back to getting this thing rebuilt!

Is it possible to figure out my compression ratio without pulling a piston and measuring piston height/rod length? Like can I just get the engine to TDC and measure how far down the piston is?

CanyonKiller

09-30-2011, 03:15 PM

Do your calipers have the depth rod on the bottom of it? If so you can put the engine on tdc and use that to get your ballpark compression.

DarkoNova

10-01-2011, 07:16 PM

Yup, that's exactly what I was planning on doing. :yeah:

DarkoNova

12-28-2011, 08:00 PM

Alright, so I finally decided to pull the engine out of the garage and try to measure how far down the hole the piston sits. It was kinda hard to do accurately since there was so much baked on carbon (any ideas on how to get rid of that?), but I got the #1 cylinder to TDC and used a section that had no carbon on it to measure. I got a different measurement every time, ranging from .014 to .020. The bore is 4.030 and I'm assuming it's a standard 3.48 stroke.

Heads have 64cc chambers. So is it possible to figure out what compression ratio I have or do I need to pull a piston?

Pro Stock

12-31-2011, 10:56 AM

You were probably getting different deck heigths because the piston was rocked in the bore, if you checked it several times and the measurements stayed consistant you should add .014 to .020 and divide by two, .014+.020=.034 divided by two=.017. you should really wait until the short is torn down and cleaned up before you start measuring things. You can clean the tops of the pistons by glass beading (tops only) Scotch Brite or wire brush. If the block has carbon at the top of the bore clean that up before measuring, calipers will be close enough to tell you if it's a standard bore or not.
Alright, so I finally decided to pull the engine out of the garage and try to measure how far down the hole the piston sits. It was kinda hard to do accurately since there was so much baked on carbon (any ideas on how to get rid of that?), but I got the #1 cylinder to TDC and used a section that had no carbon on it to measure. I got a different measurement every time, ranging from .014 to .020. The bore is 4.030 and I'm assuming it's a standard 3.48 stroke.

Heads have 64cc chambers. So is it possible to figure out what compression ratio I have or do I need to pull a piston?

DarkoNova

01-02-2012, 05:39 PM

I thought about using a wire wheel on an angle grinder to clean it off but I was afraid it would be too abrasive and scratch up the piston. The pistons are flat tops with 4 valve reliefs by the way.

If the wire wheel won't scratch the pistons, I can go ahead and try to clean off the carbon.

Chevelle598bb

01-03-2012, 08:35 PM

If you are going to use a wire wheel make sure it is made of brass. A steel wire brush will tear up the pistons.

Pro Stock

01-05-2012, 11:27 AM

If you are going to use a wire wheel make sure it is made of brass. A steel wire brush will tear up the pistons.

Brass is good but steel will work as long as you keep the speed down, use a brush that you can drive with a drill motor and stay off of the ring lands and skirts, they also make Scotch Brite wheels that can be mounted on a bench grinder that work great.

DarkoNova

01-05-2012, 05:17 PM

Would one of those wire brushes that look like toothbrushes be better? I can go pick one of those up tomorrow if it'd be better. All I have is steel wire wheels. Do they make brass toothbrush style brushes?

MonzaRacer

01-11-2012, 03:51 AM

With flat top 4 eyebrow pistons and 64 cc heads, 4 cc for std flat top 4 eyebrow pistons, average or 0.015 piston down in cyl at tdc, and palin 0.039 thickness Felpro gasket you get 10.06 compression, fin on street with aluminum heads and good cooling system.
Bored 030 ups compression to 10.17, Zero deck the block would give you 10.42/std 10.55/030.
If your leery of fuel quality and all even with aluminum heads use later model "metric" dished and beveled heads to drop compression.
But honestly with the aluminum heads your good with higher compression as long as you run moderate cam over super low duration cams which build too much cylinder pressures.
If you have a local Ford dealer call and price a spray can of Motorcraft Spray Carburretor tune-up cleaner part number PM-2, it softens up and makes carb darn near wipe off, great for cleaning throttle bodies and carbs too. soakem down let sit few minutes and scrub with tooth brush. As for small stainless toothbrush wire brushes they wont hurt if you are careful.

DarkoNova

01-14-2012, 03:57 PM

Thanks Lee. I just spent a few hours cleaning all the cylinders and they look awesome now. I remeasured and got .015 and .019 every time. I also googled the part number stamped into the cylinders but couldn't really find any info, other than they look like cheap pistons for rebuilding. This isn't my pic but I found it while googling and it's exactly what mine look like:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/01/DSCN2763-1.jpg

The part number on the pistons is P1534.

I already have Edelbrock heads with 64cc chambers so I'm not worried about a high compression ratio. I have a TKO-600, 4.10s, and the rear tires are 245/40/18's. I'm not really worried about low end torque because of the gears, and I definitely want that muscle car sound, so what would be a good cam to run? I dyno'd it a few years back and it made 265hp and 330ft lbs to the wheels, so I'd like to get a good 100hp more if that's possible. I have a performer manifold, but I was either going to get a performer rpm or a victor jr.

Pro Stock

01-14-2012, 04:45 PM

I have made hundreds of pulls testing Small Block intakes and this one always seemed to be the best overall:
[Chevrolet 262-400 Small-Block V8
RPM AIR-GAP (1500-6500 rpm)
The Original... Our Proven, Race-Winning Air-Gap Design in a Dual-Plane Manifold
Designed for 1955-86 262-400 c.i.d. Chevrolet V8s, the award-winning RPM Air-Gap incorporates the same race-winning technology that's used on our Victor Series competition intakes. The air-gap design features an open air space that separates the runners from the hot engine oil resulting in a cooler, denser charge for more power. Includes rear water outlets, two distributor clamp locations and nitrous bosses. Accepts all 1976 and later alternator and A/C brackets for the street. The heater outlet boss is angled for proper fit over the valve cover. The temp sensor boss clears all waternecks. For square-bore carburetors only. No provision for exhaust-heated chokes and no exhaust crossover. Not for 1987 and later cast iron heads and will not fit under stock Corvette hood. Available with standard finish, polished or EnduraShine for a look you've got to see to believe, see optional finishes.

If you have the room it usually worked best with a 1/2" four hole spacer.

Dale

QUOTE=DarkoNova;872151]Thanks Lee. I just spent a few hours cleaning all the cylinders and they look awesome now. I remeasured and got .015 and .019 every time. I also googled the part number stamped into the cylinders but couldn't really find any info, other than they look like cheap pistons for rebuilding. This isn't my pic but I found it while googling and it's exactly what mine look like:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/01/DSCN2763-1.jpg

The part number on the pistons is P1534.

I already have Edelbrock heads with 64cc chambers so I'm not worried about a high compression ratio. I have a TKO-600, 4.10s, and the rear tires are 245/40/18's. I'm not really worried about low end torque because of the gears, and I definitely want that muscle car sound, so what would be a good cam to run? I dyno'd it a few years back and it made 265hp and 330ft lbs to the wheels, so I'd like to get a good 100hp more if that's possible. I have a performer manifold, but I was either going to get a performer rpm or a victor jr.[/QUOTE]

DarkoNova

01-17-2012, 02:25 PM

Yeah I was either going to get a Performer RPM Air Gap or a Victor Jr.

Any recommendations on cams? I used Comp's CamQuest software and apparently the best match for my engine with a Victor Jr intake is a 292H. I'm going to be emailing/calling a bunch of companies, but I just thought I'd see if you guys had any good recommendations.

DarkoNova

01-28-2012, 04:56 PM

I filled out the form on Comp's site and they emailed me back saying this (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-12-246-3/) would be the best match for my engine.

What do you guys think? Should I switch to a Performer RPM Air Gap or Victor Jr? Or is my regular Performer intake good enough? I also had the heads gone through by a reputable shop and they said the springs had 115 lbs at 1.825, 315 lbs open and .580 lift. So I guess that's the max lift they're capable of. Are they good enough or should I get stronger ones?

DarkoNova

02-02-2012, 11:17 PM

Do I need to replace the head bolts or would reusing the stock ones be ok? I remember reading somewhere that switching to head studs would require more measurements and/or machine work because of torque differences or something...

TheJDMan

02-03-2012, 05:40 PM

This is a nice roller cam kit which works good from 1500 to 6500 rpm. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-22015/

DarkoNova

02-04-2012, 05:37 PM

Thanks Steve, but I just got my order from Summit. I ordered the cam that Comp recommended along with a new set of lifters and some roller rockers. :smoke:

Few more questions for the remainder of parts I need to order, pushrods, head bolts, head gaskets, rear main seal, and main bearings.

I was just planning on reusing my old pushrods. I figured as long as they weren't bent or damaged at the ends they should be fine, but one of my friends said they're like lifters in that they wear to the lifter and rocker that they're paired with. He said I need to put them back with the same lifters/rockers or I'll have problems. I've never heard that before, just wondering if that's even true or not.

For the head bolts, can I reuse the stockers or should I get some new ones? I don't know if they're single use bolts or if they can be reused without issue.

For the head gaskets, I was reading that there are some with a "fire ring" that are better for use with aluminum heads. Do I need that ring since I have aluminum heads? And is there a material that's better with aluminum heads or does it not matter? I need something in the .020-022 range and I just don't know what kind of material to get.

For the main bearings, I was just gonna get some plastiguage and use that to determine what bearings I needed. Is plastiguage accurate enough for that? And is it as simple as just taking off a bearing cap, putting down the plastigauge, and re-torquing the caps?

And finally, the rear main seal. I read on one site that it's best to install it with the split angled instead of parallel with the block to help it seal better. Is that necessary or can I just install it parallel to the block?

These are the only parts I need to put the engine back together so I want to get this done asap.

ROBS6T8

02-06-2012, 07:42 AM

I'm no expert but why not spend the extra for the new pushrods? You might even need longer or shorter pushrods? Spending all the money elsewhere, why take the chance? Just my thoughts.
I'll be in the same boat as you... someday! So I'm checking in with this one.

DarkoNova

02-06-2012, 09:14 AM

Good point. I just kinda figured what could really go wrong with a metal rod? :razz:

But someone on another forum brought up the issue of guideplates. I'm going from stock iron heads to aluminum heads with guideplates that require hardened pushrods. So I need to buy new ones anyway. :pat:

Chevelle598bb

02-06-2012, 09:28 AM

Pushrods- you will need to order the correct length pushrods after you assemble the heads to the short block. Many factors will affect pushrods length ei rockers, milled heads, milled deck, cam base circle, type of lifter and other factors.

Head bolts- you must use a Washer under the head of the head bolt. Stockers are not long enough to put a washer under. Don't worry about using head studs just buy high quality head bolts with washers such as Arp.

Main bearings- you will know what size bearings you will need when you tear the motor down. Look at the back of the bearing shell and it will say what size or undersize they are. You can measure them then with plastigage to see if the crank will need to be turned. You could also bring your crank to your machine shop and have it measured if you don't have a mic.
They should do it for free.

Chevelle598bb

02-06-2012, 09:35 AM

Pushrods- forgot to mention guide plates. Also with that amount with spring pressure use a pushrod with a minimum of .065 wall thickness.

Head gasket- with a gasket that thin you might need to use a multi-layer steel shim such as a cometic. With that thin of a gasket make sure to check piston to valve clearance and piston to head clearance. Your quench area may be too tight with that thin of a gasket. I have had seen people run steel shim head gaskets with aluminum heads but it is generally not recommended.

Rear main seal- offset the seal in the main. Do not line it up with the main. It will leak like crazy. Also put a dab of silicone on the ends of the seal.

Chevelle598bb

02-06-2012, 10:08 AM

Sorry for the multiple post, it's hard reading and posting in one shot from the app. The rpm air gap would be great for your app. It would make a little less top end power but much more midrange torque.

DarkoNova

02-14-2012, 05:45 PM

Well, I decided to check the rod bearings and I'm frickin glad I did. A couple of them have huge pitted areas where a lot of material is missing. And the ones that look like that don't even stay in the bores, it's like they've shrunk a little and can spin freely in the rod bores.

The crank journals look fine, though. :confused::confused:

Here's a couple pics of the two bad bearings:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/02/IMG_0407-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2012/02/IMG_0408-1.jpg

Are those spun bearings? I've never had one before. I don't think that's what it is since the engine never made any strange noises.

Wtf do I do now?

ROBS6T8

02-15-2012, 07:34 PM

Ouch! Great pics though. I'm awaiting the answer also. Just chalked it up as a learning experience. You'll be an engine builder in no time! :)

DarkoNova

02-16-2012, 12:27 PM

I took the entire rotating assembly to a machine shop yesterday. They said it looked like detonation and/or gas or coolant got into the oil. I'm leaning more towards gas since the rings are shot. Apparently 4 of the rods need resizing. Tomorrow I'm gonna bring the block down to them and get it hot tanked and magnafluxed and see if it's gonna need work. Then if it's usable I'll have em do new cam bearings and a quick hone to seat the new rings.

Hopefully everything goes well.

DarkoNova

03-28-2012, 04:10 AM

Well I finally started it up tonight after breaking it in a few days ago.

I can't get it to idle lower than 1500, and the idle kinda jumps up and down. I was trying to get the idle around 900 but once it gets to 1500 it gradually slows down and dies. But if I let it sit at 1500 it will go up a few hundred rpms. I took it for a test drive, and up the street it was idling at around 1700.

I noticed a ticking sound from the valve covers, so I pulled the breather and it looks like there's roughly 3/8" or so between the #3 cylinder intake valve and the valve cover. So I'm thinking I need to get taller valve covers.

It also runs kinda rough. Gonna start by re-adjusting the valves. I did them the "quick" way where you get it to TDC for #1 and do the intake and exhaust valves on various cylinders, and then rotate it 360º and do the rest of the valves. I should have hooked up a vacuum gauge and timing light to double check everything, but I didn't want to risk any damage if the rockers actually are hitting the valve covers.

It kinda bogs down low, too. I installed a hydraulic clutch and it grabs as soon as I let off the pedal, but if I give it gas to help move the car, it bogs down and almost stalls. I basically have to go half throttle or more just to get it to not bog down.

Possible vacuum leak?

Before the rebuild, the engine was in pretty bad shape, so I'm guessing the carb needs to be rebuilt and recalibrated. Unfortunately, the only carb shop I trusted closed down and is now a smog shop. Do you guys know any good carb shops in/around the San Bernardino area??

DarkoNova

03-28-2012, 08:02 PM

Bump.

I bumped the timing to 12º btdc, got the engine to tdc #1 and pulled the cap. If you're looking down at the top of the distributor and compare it to the face of a clock, the #1 terminal is at 6 oclock and the rotor is between 6 oclock and 7 oclock...I'm guessing that's because of the 12º of initial timing? Or is my distributor off a tooth?

Chevelle598bb

03-28-2012, 08:56 PM

The rotor can be pointed anywhere as long as the cap is phased right. Since you have the initial timing set at 12 degrees btdc then you are not off a tooth as far as the distributor goes. Most people just set up the rotor and 1# distributor post to face the #1 cylinder.

It sounds like you may have a vacuum leak or a major carb issue. With that xtreme energy cam you shouldn't need a "tuned" carb. You just need to tune your current carb. What carb are you currently running. Include the part number. We can go from there after we know what carb.

DarkoNova

03-29-2012, 04:27 PM

It's an Edelbrock Thunder Series AVS 650. I figured the old engine was in pretty bad shape so it probably needs to be tuned for the new engine..

Chevelle598bb

03-29-2012, 06:43 PM

Did you check to see if the floats were not stuck before you put it on the engine? Could you hear them clanging around before you installed it? They can get stuck if the carb sits around with no fuel in it. Before you take it off and clean it, spray some carb cleaner, brake cleaner or wd40 around the manifold to check for vacuum leaks. If none are found I would take the carb off and clean it out. It may be junked up.

DarkoNova

03-30-2012, 07:13 PM

I didn't hear any noises when I was taking the carb out of the garage and cleaning it up, or even when I put it on the intake...

I already sprayed starter fluid around the intake and carb base and the rpms never changed. The carb is the only thing left I can think of.

Chevelle598bb

03-30-2012, 07:35 PM

Take the carb off, flip it upside down and smack the bottom with your hand. That will unstick the floats if they are stuck.

DarkoNova

04-02-2012, 08:51 AM

Did that, and I even took the air horn off and checked the float measurements. They were off from the specs in the Edelbrock manual so I adjusted them. I put it back on and nothing really changed. So I looked at setting the idle mixture and followed the directions. I got it to idle at 1000 with the vacuum advance disconnected and a vacuum gauge hooked up to the carb. As soon as I hooked the vacuum advance back up, the rpm's shot up. So I think the weights need to be changed.

Either way, I got it down to 1000 with the vacuum advance hooked up, but it still runs rough. I made an appointment next week for a local carb shop to check it out and adjust it. Hopefully they can work some magic on it.

Also, I noticed that when I rev it, as the rpms come back down, they hang for a second or two at 1500 before finally dropping to 1000. I could have sworn that was an indication of a vacuum leak, but I called Comp Cams and the guy said that means the carb needs to be tuned.