Shocks too short after swapping control arms

[esenior]

I just installed Speed Tech control arms on my 69 Camaro and am now having a problem with the shocks. When I attach the upper stud (finger tight), the shock isn't long enough to come through the bottom of the lower control arm. It is highly possible that I had this problem before and just didn't notice (had some issues with the shop that installed the shocks)

Am I correct to assume that the control arm should not be able to drop down further than the shock will go for fear of damaging the shock?

The shocks are Koni Classic (don't ask for part numbers, I didn't buy them, my EX-shop did). I measured from the top of the lower mount points to the top of the shaft where the collar sits on and got 13".

Here are some pictures to make things clearer.

Shock doesn't come down far enough:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/01/69CAMAROPT_110111_10MJPG-1.jpg

Showing 13" from top of bottom mounts to the shoulder on the shaft (the top is lined up, it's just the angle of the camera):
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/01/69CAMAROPT_110111_11MJPG-1.jpg

Also, with the SpeedTech arms, are you supposed to reuse the fold-over nut to attach the lower shock mounts? The lower plate is much thicker than the original and this just doesn't seem right

Thanks in advance for any help.....Eric

[JRouche]

Ok, Im a newbie, and dont know your car. But every shock replacement I have done (not many) I bolt the lower mount up and use a floor jack to raise the lower control arm while guiding the top shock stud up and through the mounting hole. Then tighten the upper shock mount. And there was always tension on the shock rod after lowering the lower control arm.

Sometimes trying to raise the lower control arm enough was an issue. The car wanted to lift off the jack stands because I had to compress the spring so much (sometimes two inches). Sometimes all it took was a friend leaning on the side of the car to compress the spring more. Ive even had to lock the car down with straps and floor anchors (when no heavy guys were around) to compress the spring to get the shock mounts seated and bolted up.

I personally dont think thats a problem. Unless you are doing some major Dukes of Hazard jumps and dropping the tire on liftoff :)

But I think on a normal street driven car you wont see that much unloading of the front tire to run it hard into the rebound stops of the shocks. They will see the most load when you raise the tire for tire changing. And a shock can easily handle the spring tension of a couple inches if its static. JR

[DarkoNova]

Am I correct to assume that the control arm should not be able to drop down further than the shock will go for fear of damaging the shock?

No, the shocks actually limit the travel of the suspension when you lift the car up. Lift up the rear end and put jack stands under the frame. Then disconnect the shocks and lower the jack. The rear end will drop AT LEAST another inch and a half.

As JR said, just use a jack to lift the lower arm and mount the shock.

Though I have no experience with Speedtech arms, so I have no idea if you're supposed to reuse the j-nuts or whatever they're called.

[clancj]

No, the shocks actually limit the travel of the suspension when you lift the car up.

As JR said, just use a jack to lift the lower arm and mount the shock.

Though I have no experience with Speedtech arms, so I have no idea if you're supposed to reuse the j-nuts or whatever they're called.


where are your bump stops! the uppers should have bump stops to limit drop travel of both arms.

joe c

[strtlegal]

Looking at those lower arms they seam to be the ones that actually lower the spring. I think what you have is normal, if your lower control arm is fully drooped out. If thats what it looks like at ride height and your shock is not reaching you have to short of a shock. I doubt this is the case. If anything you shock will lose some uptravel because you have lowered the car some with those arms.

Just do like they said and jack the arms up and to get the shock to bolt in. The bump stops will protect the shock from collapsing. Since most of us are lowered the car would rarely see full droop so most upper arms dont even come with upper bump stops. The lower ones are the most critical.

[killer69]

You can always mount the shock on the INSIDE of the lower control arm if your concerned about it but you need to check it under full compression. what you have there is 100% normal. like Strtlegal said make sure you check your compressed height if your lowering the car.

[jknight16]

Isn't there some risk of damage to the internal shock seals if they are utilized as the droop travel limiter?

From the Alston Varishock tech guide "Shocks are not to be used as travel limiters. An extension travel limiter, such as a strap or cable, should be
used to prevent topping out and damaging the shocks."

I know we're not jumping these things off of dunes and triples, but when the car is routinely jacked up for maintenance, the shock will be fully extended with the spring putting notable tension on the shock.

[DarkoNova]

where are your bump stops! the uppers should have bump stops to limit drop travel of both arms.

joe c

Hell if I know LOL. I might have some, or they might have deteriorated into nothing. Haven't driven the car in almost a year so I really don't remember.


Isn't there some risk of damage to the internal shock seals if they are utilized as the droop travel limiter?

From the Alston Varishock tech guide "Shocks are not to be used as travel limiters. An extension travel limiter, such as a strap or cable, should be
used to prevent topping out and damaging the shocks."

I know we're not jumping these things off of dunes and triples, but when the car is routinely jacked up for maintenance, the shock will be fully extended with the spring putting notable tension on the shock.

Good point, but I've never seen any builds (even professional, sponsored builds) that had any kind of travel limiters on the front or rear. Maybe nobody really cares? I've honestly never really even thought about it until reading this thread so I'm kind of interested in seeing what everyone else thinks.

[Motorcitydak]

As the saying goes, its not the fall that kills you. Its the sudden stop at the end.

Jacking up a car from the ground will be a very slow process that will do no damage to the shock. What will damage it is running it like that and letting the shock limit travel.

You have a few options here.
1)Get new, longer shocks
2)Your suspension should have a bump stop to limit droop travel, find yours and get a new taller bump stop. Summit racing has em for a couple bucks
3) Bolt your shock in the way its pictured, inside the bucket and put a few washers between the bucket and the bar pin in the stock. Space it a little bit further than needed because your bump stop will give a little if the suspension drops out a little

The tech guide it right, NEVER let your shocks be what limits your travel. They will end up breaking.

[Bryce]

Hell if I know LOL. I might have some, or they might have deteriorated into nothing. Haven't driven the car in almost a year so I really don't remember.



Good point, but I've never seen any builds (even professional, sponsored builds) that had any kind of travel limiters on the front or rear. Maybe nobody really cares? I've honestly never really even thought about it until reading this thread so I'm kind of interested in seeing what everyone else thinks.


Afco shocks can be used as a suspension limiter, at least the T2 and the M2 can be.

I built a droop limiter for both of my suspension designs. One is a drag mustang so its used for tuning. The falcon has it because the shock has more travel than necessary.

Mustang with no spring.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/12/tn_full_IMG_0598JPG_Thumbnail1-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/479808)



Falcon, the stainless braided cable connected between the UCA and outer shocktower support.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/tn_full_42609_0182jpg_Thumbnail1-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/455696)

[Bryce]

As long as you have full travel of the shock installed you should be fine. Most people to extend their front suspension and load the shocks unless you are doing wheelstands or jumps.

[strtlegal]

As long as you have full travel of the shock installed you should be fine. Most people to extend their front suspension and load the shocks unless you are doing wheelstands or jumps.


Exactly.....No one on a pro touring site needs to worry about full droop..Even if your shock were to reach full droop or lets say full extension it would be for a split second and there would not be enough force to even hurt them.. If you hade the weight of a front axle under those shocks plus alot of momentum then it would be a different story. Whats funny is most of the high end shocks dont have internal limiters but yet a normal gas shock does...I know the reason why but its still funny.

I wouldn't get longer shocks unless absolutely needed..The longer the shock you go the longer the shock body is and the closer it comes to the upper shock mount which means if your car is lowered you will loose up travel. So if you hit a big G out or lets say a wash your shocks will bottom out, sure you can prevent this with longer bump stops but you will loose any travel you have.


I think in the end your upper control arm would bottom out on the frame long before you meet the full droop of your shocks...

[marolf101x]

Just a note: our shocks do have an integrated internal extension bump stop and an external compression bump stop.
You can see a cut-a-way of the shock here:
http://www.ridetech.com/upload/coilovercutaway.pdf

[Bryce]

Just a note: our shocks do have an integrated internal extension bump stop and an external compression bump stop.
You can see a cut-a-way of the shock here:
http://www.ridetech.com/upload/coilovercutaway.pdf

Thats good to know thanks!

[strtlegal]

Just a note: our shocks do have an integrated internal extension bump stop and an external compression bump stop.
You can see a cut-a-way of the shock here:
http://www.ridetech.com/upload/coilovercutaway.pdf

Just curious but do you have a schrader to ad or take nitrogen out?

[jknight16]

As the saying goes, its not the fall that kills you. Its the sudden stop at the end.

Jacking up a car from the ground will be a very slow process that will do no damage to the shock. What will damage it is running it like that and letting the shock limit travel.


This makes sense, the slow drop and steady tension of the spring is less likely to do damage. Like I said, since we're not doing Duke Brothers stunts with our PT cars it not as much of an issue. In the case of a 1st gen Camaro, would the bumpstop you're referring to mount to the subframe under the upper control arm?

[esenior]

3) Bolt your shock in the way its pictured, inside the bucket and put a few washers between the bucket and the bar pin in the stock. Space it a little bit further than needed because your bump stop will give a little if the suspension drops out a little

The tech guide it right, NEVER let your shocks be what limits your travel. They will end up breaking.

I decided to take Steve's recommendation and bolt the shocks inside the cup instead. As per recommendation, I also verified that the shock could handle it if the control arms were fully compressed. Solved the problem and left me with a much cleaned install.

Thanks for all the help guys!

[wellis77]

Just a note: our shocks do have an integrated internal extension bump stop and an external compression bump stop.
You can see a cut-a-way of the shock here:
http://www.ridetech.com/upload/coilovercutaway.pdf

So your shocks can be used as a suspension limiter similar to what Bryce mentioned about the Afco's?

[marolf101x]

sorry to hijack the thread, but here are some answers:

Schrader valve for Nitrogen:
The Select Series have a Schrader valve on the end where we fill the nitrogen.
The threaded coil over shocks have a "pellet style" fill system. There is a small rubber pellet inside the shock, under the bearing. The nitrogen is filled with a needle similar to how you would fill a basketball.

DO NOT change the nitrogen pressure!!!! The shortest shock we offer has a very small amount of nitrogen in the shock at a very high pressure. If you press the valve and hear one little "pssshhh", they are empty and you'll have to send them in and pay for a rebuild.


Limiting:
We often allow the shock to be the limiter in the suspension. Traditionally we've had air springs in a Shockwave configuration, which have an internal bump stop inside the shock, as well as a built-in bump stop (the rubber pressing together in a double convoluted air spring is the bump stop). And we've built and supplied entire suspension systems (control arms and all for a specific vehicle), so we know the exact movement of the suspension. When we have this much control we can ensure the shocks do not over compress or over extend.

With a "modified" or "custom" suspension you have a lot of measurements to consider. Typically you can allow the shock to be the limiter under extension, as like most have said, you won't be jumping over a river by hitting that magical bush in Hazzard County, so you won't hit full extension very often.
You do not want the shock to be the limiter in compression, however. Most of the time you will hit coil bind before you bottom out the shock.
Our shocks have been beat on and tested to ensure they don't come apart by "topping out" or bottoming out", so you don't have to worry too much, however, it is always a good idea to limit the suspension with a frame or control arm mounted bump stop for a little added insurance.

[strtlegal]

Yes even a shock with 200psi all it takes is one little hit and all of its out...Can you say what pressure's you run your shocks at?

I like the technic's you guys are using. The rubber bumpstop on the shaft is great, it helps slow down the suspension travel instead of just stopping it..

Just curious but do you offer some custom heims and shock bodies? I have my coil overs mounting posistions in my car lowered on the control arm and raised on top of the psing bucket so the lower holw going through the control is narrow. It seams your shock body is pretty good size, can you make a custom neck or possibly move out the moounting hole further away from the body? Or you guys trying just sell them with your arms...

So for the questions I figured other could benefit.

[marolf101x]

We would prefer you use them with our arms as we then know the exact mounting points, shock stroke, and spring rates.

However, we do offer quite a few options in length and mounting.

Spherical Rod End on Shock Body:
This cannot be changed. The shock bodies are impact forged (the bottom is not threaded on like many others) so we cannot change this.

Shock Rod End Mounts (I'm not sure if they are up on the website yet, so I've referenced the Master Series Shockwave parts which are dimensionally identical):
We offer adjustable stud mounts with our Delrin "Ball and Socket" which allows the shock to articulate but still provides a solid mount. These come in 2.0", 2.75", and 3.75" lengths (measure from the shock shaft where the threads start to the mounting point of the frame):
43772


As well as multiple adjustable ring mounts, in standard (1.5"), 2.5" and 3.5" lengths (measure from the shock shaft where the threads start to the center of the eyelet):
43773

Bearings and Spacers:
All of our shocks now come with a 5/8" teflon lined high quality bearing (no noise and long life) as well as a pack of spacers. Two spacers allow you to use a 5/8" bolt and two spacers step it down so you can use a 1/2" bolt. All spacers are designed to fit a standard 1.25" coil over mount. No more searching for parts and spacers when you go to install your new shocks!
43774

[strtlegal]

As well as multiple adjustable ring mounts, in standard (1.5"), 2.5" and 3.5" lengths (measure from the shock shaft where the threads start to the center of the eyelet):


https://www.pro-touring.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=43773&d=1295009834

This is what I was looking for...

I just want to make sure a lower rod end could be extended..

[killer69]

those will not fit the coil over only the SKW form what i was told, we were looking at this as an option for oune of our kits and it is a no go.

[strtlegal]

Hmmmm. I thinking even with my lower control arm being opened it should work just fine. Although not having one I can measure or a chart that I can build from its kind of hard.

I thought you tried out a set of these?

Eidt: We will talk soon Blake

[marolf101x]

Please excuse the crappy cell phone pics. We have finished design and development for most of our coil over line, including extended ring mounts and adjustable stud tops with the ball and socket swivel:
43778
43779
The only thing we cannot do (yet) is modify the mount on the shock body as it's part of the body (impact forged as a single unit). Currently you have two options, 5/8" or 1/2" bearing (we include spacers with each shock that adapt one bearing to both)

[Motorcitydak]

This makes sense, the slow drop and steady tension of the spring is less likely to do damage. Like I said, since we're not doing Duke Brothers stunts with our PT cars it not as much of an issue. In the case of a 1st gen Camaro, would the bumpstop you're referring to mount to the subframe under the upper control arm?

Im not sure about on your car but yes, usually the bump stop to control suspension down travel is mounted to frame rail of some sort on the car. It will contact the bottom side of the UCA to stop the from moving further down. Here is a shot of my stock setup on my Charger. I didnt take the pic to show the upper bump stop but you can see if just below that silver pipe

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/01/bustedshock008-1.jpg