pedal feel on manual set ups, looking at wilwood pedal set up

[overZealous1]

i am still in the building stage of the car, but need to get my brake set up figured out so i can mount my turbo's and continue on that. larger masters and boosters are getting in the way of my downpipe is the reason.
i am running front 6 piston Z06 brakes, and will be running the matching 4 piston rears. i already have a wilwood distribution/proportioning valve.
i tried the dual 7" booster. fit ok, but called tobin at kore3 and he said it would only have 40% of the surface area to feel like a stock Z06. i went and got an 03 S10 master and dual 9" booster (which is supposed to be the same as the vette set up) and it just looks like **** considering all the nice polished and trick stuff under the hood. once i start that install also, it will require alot of fab.
i don't really want to go hydroboost. already have my power steering set up and would have to redo it. plus additional cost and trying to keep engine bay as clean as possible.

so, pretty much looking at doing a wilwood remote master set up. probably the full pedal set up and reverse mounted masters with remote resevoirs to mount them any place i choose.
i was recommended 3/4 bore front, 7/8 rear. 6.25 to one pedal ratio.

my question is, the guys running a manual set up similar to this, how is your pedal feel? do you feel like you are trying to push your foot through the floor, or is it something easily liveable?
i currently have ceramic pads, but will be switching to the hawk hp plus to get better bite.

anybody have any other options/opinions on this i am open to ideas.

[Nessumsar]

I have no personal experience with how a manual set up feels. From what I have read it is all in how you set the system up; if you have the right bore size and pedal ratio it shouldn't feel much different than a boosted setup (other than more pedal travel due to smaller bore size).

I am looking at using a master cylinder from a 1993 Dodge Shadow V6; it has a 7/8" bore, and an alloy body. It looks really nice and they are $46 NEW with a lifetime warranty at Autozone/Advance.
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[Matt@BOS]

I had a Wilwood 7/8" tandem master cylinder and C6 Z06 brakes with ceramic pads. It wasn't a bad combo, but it wasn't my favorite either.

here are some notable points from this setup:
Relatively light brake pedal for a manual setup. It was still firm, but the first inch or so of travel wasn't rock solid. Overall pretty nice to drive around town. You will be aware that they are not power brakes. The pedal is no where near as spongy as any car with power brakes that I've driven.

With ceramic pads, the car didn't feel like it had very much initial "bite," rather, transitions to braking felt very smooth, although part of that feeling can be attributed to the lack of dive on the front of the car. Personally, while the car probably stopped just fine, I didn't like the way that the setup felt. I did switch over to Hawk HP Plus, or S (can't remember) but literally only drove a couple of miles on the new pads before my car got hit at a light during my test drive.

After the accident, I took the opportunity to go through and fix things I wasn't happy with. The 7/8" tandem master always felt a bit soft at first during the initial bit of pedal travel, and I didn't like that so I went with a Tilton pedal setup with individual 7/8" masters front and rear. Now the pedal feels like a rock. Braking feels more like a function of pressure applied to the pedal instead of pedal travel. In short you don't notice how much the pedal moves. It's a bit hard to explain.

Now, the Wilwood setup you're looking at is similar to the Tilton one that I'm running, and if you run a 3/4" master up front it might soften the pedal up, I just don't know how much.

Also, if you aren't running a floater rear end, or SET20 tapered bearings, and you have big wheels, your car will be prone to brake pad knockback, and you will really feel it with a 7/8" rear master cylinder.

Matt

[overZealous1]

thats what i was hoping to hear. yes, was looking at the twin brake master cylinders. i do understand about the pedal travel. you want to stop more, you push harder. i just want something that doesn't feel like i am trying to do a panic stop everytime. like running a boosted set up and your engine quits for one reason or another and you hit the brakes only to find out you ain't stopping!!!

can you lock them up with somewhat normal amounts of pedal pressure? normal is a relative word, but yaknow what i mean. i am willing to give up some ease of pedal pressure for the looks and simpler install of a manual set up. i am trying to set the car up as a comfortable cruiser, but it is give and take on some things.

[silver69camaro]

I have the Wilwood balance bar pedals on mine. My brakes can be locked up pretty easy, I'd say with about 75lbs of foot force. That may sound like a lot, but remember how strong your leg is. The only trouble I have with lockup is when the pads are stone cold.

I really like the feel and don't miss power brakes at all.

[claytonisbob]

I will say those Dodge masters are pretty awesome (Dorman M39736, I paid less than $30 for mine on rockauto) but they are not a direct bolt on. The bolt spacing on the master is a bit too narrow for my Chevelle's bracket. I had to modify my brake bracket for a hydraulic clutch anyway, so when I had it out I knocked out the old studs and welded 2 - 3/8" studs a little closer together on the bracket and drilled the holes on the master to 3/8". Looks right at home on my firewall, and not as blingy as a Wilwood setup.

I have Hawk HPS pads on the front (2 piston C6 calipers), oem pads on the rear (LS1 rear disks). The brake effort definitely feels different than the old power setup, but it's very consistent. I will agree the initial bite isn't the same as the power booster, but I think after I got used to them it's a better pedal feel. We'll see in the spring how it feels on the autocross course.

[JRouche]

I will agree the initial bite isn't the same as the power booster, but I think after I got used to them it's a better pedal feel.

Kinda off the topic but I think you nailed it. Getting used to the brakes.

I have four cars that I drive. None of them performance cars. Mostly inexpensive and daily drivers. Which one I hop into depends on the weather mostly, or what Im doing.

Ill get used to driving my fiat spider when its summer time. The brakes are so-so, good for the light car. Then I might have to take my wifes sequoia to home depot. DAMM!. As heavy of a tank that it is, it stops like now. And its overly assisted, just breath on the brake pedal and it stops. If I drive her car too much then get into the fiat or honda its like an eye opener. I have got into some close situations forgetting that those cars have some brake fade. Late braking, off a 70mph off ramp, the tank dosent have ANY brake fade. The lil cars do and I forget that. Been pretty close sometimes. Brake fade is the worst!!!

Now my lil nova. Well, havent seen any brake fade yet. It has the same sized brakes as the tank. But while bedding in the new pads I did notice something I havent on the other cars. To bed the wilwood pads in I was trying to heat them up to fade conditions. Got them REALLY hot. But they didnt fade. They did get more "grabby" Meaning they kinda shuddered if I didnt apply more brake. I was just trying to heat them up. I was afraid to apply more braking because I didnt want to lock them up and spot my new tires.

They felt like they wanted more pedal, but I wasnt gonna flat spot my new tires just to find out. And really, this is a street car, the brake rotors were already bluing due to the bedding process, thats what you want, they were hot.

But, they are the basic wilwood pads. In a race you might get your brakes that hot. You dont want your pads to be grabby like that. Thats where better pads are king.

Now on the streets. My 49 year old nova will stop on a dime. No front end dive, no brake fade. If I need to stop she does. Problem is. The other drivers. Yup, they get behind a really old car and think they have some stopping room, like its gonna stop like a 20 ton truck. I wish they would get off my azz.

I love my nova. I can come off the freeway at 75mph, hit the sweeping off ramp, not on the brakes cause the car handles also, get to where I want to slow down, modulate the brakes (boosted brakes with a low vacuum engine) to a fast stop. Nice and smooth. Yeah, I dont drive like that all the time, Im not in a hurry, HELL Im retired and having fun driving my car!! LOL JR

[Kenova]

I have had a similar experience with my Vega and truck ('04 Silverado 1500).
The manual brakes on the Vega feel so much better than the brakes on my truck, even though my truck needs far less room to stop than the Vega.
If I ever get that damned Nova back on the road I'll be using manual brakes on it too. Hopefully they will be up-graded.

Ken

[Payton King]

I am running a twin master set-up on my car as well and it took a while for me to get it right. I am running Wilwood superlight narrows, 6 piston front and 4 piston rear. The piston sizing is about the same as a stock C5/C6 from the factory. Pedal ratio is 6:1. I originally had BP-10 pads and my braking was terrible. Went to a Carbotech AX6 front and rear for street driving and autocross and the difference was night and day. For track days I use XP8's in the front and AX6 in the rear running street tires. If I step up to an R compound will go to XP10's and 8's. Masters are 7/10 front and 3/4 rear. Pedal does have a little travel but still a very solid feel on light braking on the street. Do not notice it on the track.