Lube or no lube, that is the question!

[Yelcamino]

Years and years ago I was told not to put any type of lube on the wheel studs. I was never given a reason why and considering I was only about 14 years old at the time, I didn't ask why. Now 30 years later I'm asking "Why?"

Considering that rod bolts are torqued with lube on their threads and I'm pretty sure they endure a lot more stress than wheel studs, then why was I told not to put any lube on wheel studs?

What say you?

[DarkoNova]

When I bought a stud conversion for my BMW to get rid of the stupid lugbolts, the kit came with some anti-seize to put on the threads. I put it on every lug and never had a problem with them. The stock bolts would actually loosen up on me every now and then, but I never had that problem with the new lugs. They actually seemed to thread on easier with the anti-sieze.

[MonzaRacer]

As a technician for over 20 years I have done many different things, mostly based on employer based requirements.
Now a few years ago I was working at a Firestone Mastercare. Well we got Modern Tire Dealer magazine and in that publication for the record one of the tire/wheel/whatever groups did proper investigation and found that "silver" nickle based anti-seize is fine and even recommended as it does not change torque values by any more than 5% but actually normalize the fastener torquing.
And if you ever look at any properly maintained semi or trailer you will see anti-seize on the wheel studs.
So silver nickle based anti-seize is ok and even recommended this will keep things from rusting, prevent things from binding or galling.
Good luck

[Yelcamino]

While I was swapping out my wheels yesterday, I took the time to coat each wheel stud with silver anti-seize. I ran each lug nut down and back to coat the threads evenly then wiped off the excess. I also lowered the torque a bit since I didn't have to overcome the friction of dry threads. I think I'll update my way of doing things.

[Van B]

We always use the silver anti seize on the race car, but the wheels are either removed or re torqued every session. I would torque them the same as I do dry since theroetically with the lube, they could back off more easily. As always when torquing wheels, recheck torque after driving as they might back off. With anti seize on a street car I might make a habit of checking again until you do not find any that have loosened.

[Twentyover]

Didn't vote, but all the smart guys running old English sportscars (perhaps an oxymoron here) w/ centerlock wheels use copaslip. Prevents corrosion on the threads and the Rudge spline. Living in MI I have lug nuts rust on me.

[Yelcamino]

We always use the silver anti seize on the race car, but the wheels are either removed or re torqued every session. I would torque them the same as I do dry since theroetically with the lube, they could back off more easily. As always when torquing wheels, recheck torque after driving as they might back off. With anti seize on a street car I might make a habit of checking again until you do not find any that have loosened.

Good point. I periodically check the torque on my lugs but will do so more often with the anti-seize.


Didn't vote, but all the smart guys running old English sportscars (perhaps an oxymoron here) w/ centerlock wheels use copaslip. Prevents corrosion on the threads and the Rudge spline. Living in MI I have lug nuts rust on me.

I'd never heard of Copaslip before but may invest in some. Here's a dealer (http://www.mrmoly.com/html/copaslip.html) for it if anyone is interested.

[6'9"Witha69]

Anti seize. Picked it up from a friend who is an ASE certified Maaster diesel tech. It helps keep my 4" long 1/2"x20 studs from rusting.

[JRouche]

Great thread topic!! Wheel fasteners (studs, bolts, or whatever is in place) take a tremendous amount of abuse. And they are meant to endure. They are designed to take repeated stretching with every wheel removal, have to be easy to use for ANY owner, threading the nut back on in the dark, rain, snow or desert by ANYONE driving the car, that means men, women, elderly and teenagers.

They take some abuse from the heavy handed impact driver at the local tire change-um shop. And they are not a consumable item. If you have a 40 year old car more than likely you have the original wheel fasteners. IMO they are some durable pieces.

Kinda a shame we dont give more thought to them. But yeah, I think some anti-seize is a good idea. So I think if you are ready to break out the torque wrench to torque the wheel nuts then its prolly a good idea to give a swipe of silver grease.

Speaking of torque? What do you, that use the wrench, like to use for final numbers? I go in three steps, goes quickly, not too much work. I hand tighten all the nuts (with the socket and extension) while bumping or shaking the tire, just to get all the conical seats evenly seated. Then I take it up to 35lbs for all, then 65lbs then a final 120lbs for all.

120lbs might sound like alot but its not. I have removed some nuts from the wheel shop that uses an impact regularly and it was in excess of 150lbs. But more importantly, it was not consistent for all the nuts. And thats one of the reasons for using a torque wrench is to get a uniform torque for all of the fasteners.

But thats whats crazy, and great about the fasteners. They will usually preform just fine under a wide amount of torquing conditions. If its the heavy hand at tires-R-us, or granny on the side of the snowy road with a star wrench. They always seem to hold.

The lowly wheel fasteners!! They need to get more credit, after all, they are the LAST fastener between YOU and the road. JR

Ooops, forgot to vote, will do so now...

[Twentyover]

........................
Speaking of torque? What do you, that use the wrench, like to use for final numbers? I go in three steps, goes quickly, not too much work. I hand tighten all the nuts (with the socket and extension) while bumping or shaking the tire, just to get all the conical seats evenly seated. Then I take it up to 35lbs for all, then 65lbs then a final 120lbs for all.

...

65 ft-lb on daily driver, 80 ft-lb for the race car and the Camaro (both use ARP lug studs) regardlesss of seat type

[kryptik]

65 ft-lb on daily driver, 80 ft-lb for the race car and the Camaro (both use ARP lug studs) regardlesss of seat type

Agreed, I do about 65-70ft-lbs for my 7/16 studs in the rear and about 80ft-lbs for my 1/2 studs up front.

[ponchopwr70]

I use silver never seize and torque to about 80. I've taken my wheels off so many times I got the feel for it. I personally would not torque my lugs to 120 but thats off topic.

[Yelcamino]

When I was going dry, I'd torque the 1/2 studs to 90 and the 7/16 studs to 80. Now with the anti-seize I go 80 and 70 respectively.

[parsonsj]

I use silver anti-sieze on every car I "maintain". That's now 5 cars, lol. I use the factory torque ratings and take 10 lb-ft. off, and use 85 for 1/2-20 race-car threads. I make sure to get some anti-sieze on the lug nut seats as well.

jp

[My427stang]

I dont antiseize every time, but if it starts looking dry, I hit it again.

I see no reason that a dry thread would be better than a lightly lubed one

[tommycomfort]

Herb,
I don't think I would suggest it to people who never check their lugs, but for guys like us who have their wheels on and off I don't think you can go wrong. I double check mine before every event as I am sure you do too. Glad to see this thread though, I always thought I was the oddball using anti-seize...
Tom

[Van B]

I use silver anti-sieze on every car I "maintain". That's now 5 cars, lol. I use the factory torque ratings and take 10 lb-ft. off, and use 85 for 1/2-20 race-car threads. I make sure to get some anti-sieze on the lug nut seats as well.

jp

John,

I am curious as to why you go lower than factory spec.

[parsonsj]

The better the thread lube, the more bolt stretch per measured torque. ARP has a good tech description of this phenomenon on their website.

Jp

[mc84_zz4]

When I lived In Colorado (12 yrs), I would swap wheels 2x year: summer, and winter.
I used wd40, since it was what I had available, but I think i'll look into getting a large tube of anti seize instead.
I have had my wheels on/off the car at least 4x this year already.

I found this one link from ARP, not sure if it what was being discussed earlier about yield/torque specs:
http://www.arp-bolts.com/pages/technical_torque_us.shtml
But on it it states: "Always lubricate the fasteners prior to applying torque to ensure accurate readings."

[aronhk_md]

Why not also use the anti sieze on the conical OR flat seats of the wheel itself? Again, its a friction point that can inhibit proper torque.

Also, for those of you using it and regularly checking.....have you found they ever back off with use/time?

Is there any difference between "silver" anti sieze and any other kind? I've never looked to see what mine is.....

[CarlC]

For any bolted joint the applied torque is used to stretch the bolt or stud. For a grade 8/A490 150KSI fastener the amount of stretch to get to 70% of the bolt material yield point (a conservative, commonly accepted spec.) is 0.003" in/in of bolt in the grip. Having a 4:1 grip/diameter ratio is very good to have since a lot of stretch can be applied. The stretch, or elongation, acts as a spring and helps reduce the chances of loosening and minimize relaxation changes. For example, for a 3/8" bolt with 1-1/2" in the grip, the stretch is 0.012" to get around 73% yield.

There are dozens of factors that can effect the actual elongation. The ones we have the most control over are the method of torque application, the fastener size (1/2" or 7/16" fine thread for most of us), and the lubrication. The single largest factor is the friction under the head of the nut or bolt that is being rotated. Combined with the other friction contributors, only about 10% of the applied torque goes toward actually applying tension to the fastener.

So what? Let's use a typical Bostik Silver Grade anti-seize to tighten a fastener. It has a friction factor of 0.13 vs. 0.18 for a dry fastener. That's a 25% reduction in the required applied torque.

So why are there not more fastener failures?

First, the 70% number acts as a buffer. It is not uncommon for there to be a +/-20% difference in elongation in a group of fasteners that have had the same torque applied, so having a 30% buffer on top is a good thing. Secondly, the fastener material is always stronger than the specification. The steel maker has to meet a minimum standard, so they will always target a bit stronger than the minimum. Third, the torque formulas are conservative. In the dozens of cases where I have used both micrometers and ultrasonic elongation verification methods, the actual elongation is is much less than the the theoretical when using applied torque. Every time. So, even if the above lubricant is used along with the theoretical dry-torque number, it is usually OK. But it is always best to check the friction factors/reduction and apply that to the fastener in question.

I like jp's reduction factor. I do the same, but also make it a religious policy to re-check the lugs at least twice after installing the wheels and before/after every track day. I also apply a light coat on the lug seat

[aronhk_md]

But, is there any real need to use a reduction factor? What would the benefit for doing so be? In my view most torque specs were evaluated under lab/ideal conditions, where friction was at a reduced state anyway. Or using theoretical equations to approximate friction, etc. By applying anti-seize to these surfaces we are preventing oxidation. Seems to me it would be close enough just to use the recommended torque specs no?

As a side note chances are we are also adding dirt/dust to the mixture with time....unless of course you strip and re-apply anti-seize each time you remove the nut. Probably doesnt affect the equation much under normal circumstances though.

[CarlC]

There are two primary functions of a thread lubricant. First, the lubricant, depending on the mixture, will reduce the friction between the threads and under the head of the bolt/nut. This will result in less torque needed to obtain the same elongation vs. a non-lubricated assembly, and a reduced chance of stripping and gauling. Second, again depending on the mixture, it will increase the chances that the mating components will release during disassembly (anti-seize compounds.)

Depending on the lubricant used the friction reduction can be enough that the fastener will yeild if torqued to dry specifications. A mixture of oil and graphite can reduce the friction by up to 50%.

[aronhk_md]

Good stuff Carl, thanks. What I sort of take from this discussion is that in the case of wheel studs, especially the 7/16 or 1/2 ones we use, the studs themselves are not usually near their failure point in any way at normal torque specs.....as evidenced by shops overtorqueing them frequently as high as 150 ft/lbs without failures.

So in this particular case a reduction in torque, while appropriate if using a lubricant, is probably not vital.

BUT in other applications, and I can think of many involving a steel bolt inserted into say aluminum threads or cases where the diameter/material of the bolt is minimal for its application.........in these cases adding a lubricant COULD potentially cause failure if one used the normal torque specs for that app.

Thanks again......great discussion!

[overZealous1]

The better the thread lube, the more bolt stretch per measured torque. ARP has a good tech description of this phenomenon on their website.

Jp

+1 torque on any bolt is figured on bolt dia. and material hardness. you need a certain amount of bolt stretch to keep the nut from backing off in high vibration areas. too much friction from the threads and you will not be stretching the bolt enough. too much torque and you over stretch the bolt and it looses elasticity.
anti-seize good.

[John Wright]

What say you?

Antiseize. Never had any loosen up and all of mine are street cars/trucks that see 100K+ mileage.....lots of heat cycles, lots of tire roations, and never had a loose lug nut.

Except for the time that I had a tire shop swap a set of tires to another set of rims and I left their shop and felt something feel funny on the first curve and pulled over to find all 8 lug nuts on the RF wheel of my truck were only holding onto the studs by maybe one or two threads....nope they weren't even seated. Luckily I caught it before they had a chance to wallow out my rim.

[parsonsj]

What I sort of take from this discussion is that in the case of wheel studs, especially the 7/16 or 1/2 ones we use, the studs themselves are not usually near their failure point in any way at normal torque specs.....as evidenced by shops overtorqueing them frequently as high as 150 ft/lbs without failures.I don't see why you have taken this position... lug nuts are no different from any other bolt. As we've explained, anti-sieze reduces the required torque setting due to reduced friction on the threads and seat. Torquing them to a dry spec while using anti-sieze increases the risk of failure. Citing anecdotes of shops over-torquing lug nuts as "evidence" is dangerous, and shouldn't be used for such an important fastener.

[John Wright]

Here a link from ARP that may be interesting to some that are interested in the mettalurgical points of bolts:
http://arp-bolts.com/pages/technical_metallurgy.shtml

and here is a link from ARP highlighting the different types of bolt failures:
http://arp-bolts.com/pages/technical_failures.shtml

lots of other interesting reading on that site as well.

[parsonsj]

Some information from ARP:

http://arp-bolts.com/pages/technical_installation.shtml

An excerpt: Slicker lubricants may reduce the required torque by as much as 20-30% to achieve the desired preload...

[parsonsj]

John -- too funny! Great minds, eh?

[John Wright]

Dry vs Lubed:
We use a Skidmore-Whilhelm device (http://www.skidmore-wilhelm.com/bolt_testing.htm) here at work to test every lot/sample of bolts we install. This equipment can really show you the difference in tension developed within the bolt for a given torque(or turn of the nut).
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/11/tobig-1.gif
ie. for a 1" TC (tension control) A490 bolt, the spline should wring off when the bolt has developed a min of 67,000 lbs(67 kips) of tension within the bolted assembly. When the spline shears off the wrench quits tightening. We have to test a min of 3 samples per lot# to assure that we are using good bolts and we use the Skidmore (hydraulic load cell with a pressure gage) to prove our bolts/wrench/bolting procedures are adequate to provide a fully tensioned bolt without under/over tightening.

[robertjra]

I work in the tire industry and i have bin torquing wheels for 12 years TIA and ASE say never use any lube or anti seize on wheel studs the torque spec is based off of a dry torque.

[MonzaRacer]

OK lets go back an set some facts up, first of all silver "nickle based" anti-seize has been repeatedly tested to not change lug nut torque by more than 5 %.
Now the industry watchdogs did their tests with oil, grease, nickel and copper based anti-seize and found that you only torque to the stock specs, see all of the stock specs are + or - so you in ball park, also the listed things NOT to do. do not get it on taper of lug nuts and to only use enough to cover stud/nut threads.
I have used nickel based anti-seize for over 20 years and we were even told in tech school to use it. As for torque specs I have seen the ratings for most GM/Ford stuff 7/16,12mm,1/2 in the 85 to 105 range. nearly every ford/gm/chrysler have been using 95-105 for 12mm lugs
Only reason most asian cars use less is due to brake/hub warp.
Saw a Chrysler car with SAME stud in 12mm in asian car asian called for 80lb ft and american called for 100.
So did some testing, looking, etc.
Guess what,, stretch is more accurate with threads only lubed. Friction between taper and nut keeps lug from moving, anti-seize on threads give more consistent torque pull.
Been doing this job for way too long and after several years of drilling out and removing bad lug nuts trust this, factory torque is good even with antiseize, I wouldnt change it for the anything,, now if you use arp moly lube then yes listen to ARP reduction specs.
anti seize is not a lube per sey it is a light lube that has high heat characteristics and nickel in it acts as a corrosion inhibitor,, it makes things NOT corrode. Its not that slick from a fastener stand point.
The facts as iread them in the article(wish icould find it) and my own testing and investigating tell me to use stock fastener specs, and use silver ,nickel, based anti seize.

[LeighP]

I think I'll switch to the nickle based anti-sieze, since I bought some for assembling the stainless hardware kit I bought for my resto project....but for 30+ years I've been using a slight wipe of chassis grease on the stud, or a spray of WD40 on the stud....never had a wheel nut back off or broke a stud.
I must admit to not using a torque wrench....I tighten by hand and have a pretty consistent feel for the right torque using my lug wrench.

[MonzaRacer]

On specific uses for types of anti seize the copper based stuff, some brands smell like gear oil, as in diff lube(?) but I was always told it was made for higher heat applications like manifolds and such. Oh and I am still looking for the article I read. Also since most of the antiseize I use is Permatex I will give up one secret, I use liquid rubber/tire buffer, same stuff I use when repairing tires with patches/patch plugs, to thin my anti seize back down if it gets little dried out,,,works well.

[Henesian]

Lube all the way. Permatex Anti-Seize Lubricant. Gets everywhere, but great for your wheel studs. All sexual innuendoes and puns intended.

[TT302Z28]

Wow, great thread guys. I honestly never really considered putting anti-seize on the wheel studs.

Thanks for the heads up.

[AutoX_D21Hardbody]

My company had a rep from Meritor come in to demonstrate a picture perfect brake job on heavy duty trucks and that rep told us to use only a drop of 30 weight on the thread of the studs. This coming from Meritor, a company that builds axles, brakes and hubs for big trucks.

[kimosabi]

My company had a rep from Meritor come in to demonstrate a picture perfect brake job on heavy duty trucks and that rep told us to use only a drop of 30 weight on the thread of the studs. This coming from Meritor, a company that builds axles, brakes and hubs for big trucks.

Yep. No need to overthink it. Wheels studs are wheels studs, solid stuff. Stripping and gauling is what I think about when lubing mine. I aways use engine oil. Couldn't care less about stretch. Correct torque is in my arm. Never had a wheel(or stud) pop off yet. :)

Antiseize? Engine oil works for that too. But what's the point on a car the gets the wheels yanked off every season?

[MonzaRacer]

Many of the truck techs have for many years used silver antiseize.
when I worked at Sears I repeatedly got raked over the coals for using an old paint brush and 30wt motor oil on wheels studs, namely because we live in rural area and many ofthe vehicles had specific amounts of corrosion due to proximity to farm elements ie manure, chemicals, etc.
with using torque sticks and torque wrenches,,,,no issues were ever had.
I currently work as a Midas, I needed a heavier torque wrench so I purchased a Precision unit, split beam and it only torques in clockwise. It goes up to 250lb ft.
it lasted for daily use and seeral users for nearly 2 years and just got rebuilt and recalibrated and only cost me around $100.
For 7/16 fine thread I was always given 80-85 lb ft, 1/2 fine thread torque at 100 lb ft. 12mm studs I have always been given the 80-95 lb ft rating.
What I have seen many different cars, many different torques.
I have seen same studs from one car that used 60 lb ft torque and then in another 80 lb ft, and another 88.
With clean and smooth tapered seat faces, antiseize on threads only and acceptable recheck intervals.
On 12mm studs I have been torquing to 85-90 if no set spec available and 1/2" at 100 and 14mm I torque 140 on steel and 150 on aluminum as that has been what I have been seeing as specs.
Always retorque aluminum after around 25 miles. Steelies rarely need retorque.
If threads are damaged you can clean them out on open ended nuts backwards with tap, and use a die on studs. In shop I tend to see the very end of studs galled and will use sanding disc and scotchbrite rolocks and thread files.
Maybe even cut a thread or two off.
Wheel studs ARE very resilient and very,,,,hardy. Abuse of wheel studs get way too much abuse in my industry for the critical role they play in our cars, be it stock or race.
Most drag cars and circle track cars are using 9/16 or 5/8 wheel studs, and for appropriate torque I would look towards the manufacturer/seller.
Copper based antiseize is not real good for evening out torque ratings.
After they ran their tests with oil, moly based lube, silver(nickel based) antiseize, motor oil, gear oil and several others.
From all the tests, they ran them on identical type hub and bearings added rotors and the centers cut from wheels.
If I remember correctly they had well over 50 different test units.
Of all of them, they had best, accurate, repeatable torque values from silver antiseize and the accuracy of the torque values was impressive. And from what I remember, really the only difference in ratings came from different brands of hubs. They surmised the the differences were in the quality/grade of wheel studs installed. The offshore hubs had cheaper studs with a lesser quality finish. BUT after installing and removing the lug nuts tended to "polish up" the studs after they were coated with antiseize.
So if you guys are using knuckles with hub and bearing assemblies install new nuts(if they are hard to thread on new studs) with silver, nickle based, antiseize, and run them down a few times and torque them down several times.
This should burnish them well enough to give them an accurate torque/preload.