Can a non LS motor be made to run like a LS motor?

[rohrt]

I got to ask the dumb question of the day.

Why couldn't I build a non LS motor like a Pontiac 400 to perform at the same level as a LS1/LS2 motor? How close could I get to the performance and MPG? What are limiting factors that can not be overcome with any traditional engine? I read one article that said the engine can make more power with les cam. Well there are a lot of aftermarket heads that can flow some crazy number.

In the aftermarket for Pontiac they have just come out with the RAV heads and intake. The heads are symmetrical for both intake and exhaust ports. The heads also flow in the neighborhood of 300cfm and have relocated sparkplugs and modern heart shaped chambers. With a roller cam and after market EFI I might get equivalant HP number but I would guess that I wouldn't get better then 18-19 mpg. I could put a TKO5 speed behind it too.

I have this note concerning the LS motors.

Most folks don't know the real reason why the LSx engines are so damn good. So I will provide an anecdotal comparison in laymen's terms so that everyone gets it.

The LSx technology is really not anything new. In 1988, you could get what were called Dart "Buick" conversion heads for your small block Chevy. What? Buick, huh? Forget the name. It's irrelevant. What these heads offered were the following:
-Shallow valve angle: 14 degree as opposed to the stock 23 degree
-Raised Intake ports
-Spread, symmetrical intake and exhaust ports (as opposed to the standard Siamese port locations)
-Small fast burn chambers (No. GM did not invent that term. Still pisses me off)

How is it that you guys can get 500hp and 25mpg?

Does it have to do with VE?
Does it have to do with sequential multi-point fuel injection?

Someone enlighten me.

[Ron S]

Cylinder heads, Cylinder heads, Cylinder heads. The injection is really good on the LS engines, but they run just as good carburated. Head design is key, they have put those heads on SBC, and they run just as good as a LS.

[XLexusTech]

well given an big budget... here you go....

Big inch (427 454) Small block Chevy>>>> Aluminum block>>> 18 degree Alum Heads>> long Rods>> Digitial Fuel injection.....

All set.... but ask how much that costs relitive to an LS3 stroker.. this will anser why the LS is the Go to option.

[rohrt]

But will you get the mpg????

[Nessumsar]

well given an big budget... here you go....

Big inch (427 454) Small block Chevy>>>> Aluminum block>>> 18 degree Alum Heads>> long Rods>> Digitial Fuel injection.....

All set.... but ask how much that costs relitive to an LS3 stroker.. this will anser why the LS is the Go to option.

...or, big alloy SBC, Arao 4 valve heads, efi, and overdrive.

[XLexusTech]

Yes,, fuel mileage no problem..... remember we talking air pumps here.. not much to think about...... Personally i favor going with a gen 1 SBC as described above.... I just simply cannot justify the cost to value compared to an LS.......
I have been over this in my own head 100000 times trying to justify going against the grain... at the end of the day..... just makes more sense to spend the exta $$ on other cool stuff..!.

Jon caveat emptor on those arao heads... do some research on customer service/support/Quality

start here

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/feedback-buyers-sellers-vendors/24097-fraud-arao-engineering-inc-buyer-beware.html

[Vegas69]

The simple answer is NO.

[hifi875]

no, my mildly cammed 5.3 e.t.s at the same mph and runs quicker in the quarter than my 413sb w/ 274comp cam and good heads. it does not have the torque but it does everything else better. when i changed the motor out everything else stayed the same also.

[XLexusTech]

Hummm this is so tempting...... can someone on the NO side of this discussion lay down some goals.. for example.. 500 RWHP and 20 mpg...??

Is that "success in a LS" i may be tempted to try to exceed that with a Gen 1 given the right motivation...

[MrQuick]

it could be done with the right amoumt of money. parts and development.
Remember that the 400 was designed in the days of "bigger is better". so much has improved as far as design and technology.

But for s&g's lets take a look at what makes the LSx engines efficient:
cathedral head design
valve lay out
runner shape
runner length
chamber location to maximize efficiency
oiling system
crank driven oil pump
piston design
crank shaft design
ignition system
cooling chambers
cooling system design

those are just the things I can spout off while cooking lunch... and to think, GM is coming up with new designs and technology to improve the V8. Don't fight it, embrace it.
If you had the money and means you could build a one off 400, I bet it would be pretty close to what you see above.

[hifi875]

6.0 lq9, camshaft, l92 heads=500hp

[XLexusTech]

6.0 lq9, camshaft, l92 heads=500hp

can you get 20-25 MPG with that?... if thats the baseline I am sure I can do that with a SBC Gen 1

[Bryce]

GM has so much technology and R&D into the LS motors. Same with any OEM company. Its hard to compete with that if you wanted design and build your own motor. But everything can be improved.

As for MPG, weight and aero will make a huge difference in achieving your goal. 500hp and 20mpg does not seam hard with a lean tune at cruise speed.

[XLexusTech]

Not only can you do this...... but World product sells it in a crate.... 427 Motown Lite... 9.5 compression.. street cam.. 520 HP..

here is the kicker.... 12K out the door.. this is why LS makes more sense $$$$$

[PremierJosh]

I'm sure with enough trial, error, and $$$ you could get damn close but why? Not going over kill on the cam is the key. We have a hand full of C6 vettes getting 32-33mpg on a highway cruise to Bowling Green making 575whp+, 250 miles from my shop. This is 2-4 mpg better than stock. These cars are stock longblock centri blower cars. Take the chassis out of the equation and we end up with the heads, light weight longblock, and ecu. The head flow is a big part of it but so is the smaller runner (normally) mild camshaft, and great combustion chamber. These lsx motors are so effected, we run 8-10 psi on top of 11:1-11:5 or up tp bottom 13:x on pump gas. I'm a fan of thinking outside of the box but not trying to reinvent it. Hell I drive a 09 CTS-V daily that makes 662whp, weights 4720, runs 10.8@131, gets 20.5mpg, and my wife drives it once a week with no idea anything is even done to it.

[hifi875]

lets see. used 6.0 iron block, fast intake, heads(factory 243 or l92), cam, computer=$3500 or less. you do the math. Heck probably cheaper than that if you shop smart over at ls1tech.com.