For those running a GM Controller for LS setup

[DFRESH]

Question, if I already know the motor is going to make around 500 hp, would you just buy the Controller that PACE sells advertised as the 480HP model? It's the same price as the 430HP for LS3 (which is the motor i've got--with a different cam). I would imagine that the initial tune would be closer on the 480hp setup controller than the 430---but either way it will need to be tuned so I am curious what you guys have done with your setups and if I am going down the right path here.

Doug

[CarlC]

Which ECM is it? E38?

[tom_a]

Doug,

I have the 430HP LS3 and am using the E38 GM unit that Speartech supplied me and my car is now running but not quite driving yet. I left the stock cam for now as I just want to get it going but plan to change. I did not even realize they listed a 480 and a 430 choice. I would think it would not much matter as you are gonna get a tune. That said for the same price I would get the 480HP. What cam are you going with?

[Flash68]

Oh goodness... Doctor Fresh enters the LS world!!!!! :bicycle:

[DFRESH]

Carl/Tom--speak to me like i'm in first grade here----how would I know or figure out which ECM it is? What the hell is the ECM anyways---Electronic something I am guessing---oh man--here we go---can't wait for the posts to begin---

Doug

[Nessumsar]

ECM = Engine Control Module. Its the box that the engine harness plugs into. Much like an MSD box, just a little more complicated...

I would think that the 480hp ECM would have a closer tune that may allow you to run the engine on the base tune; althought the engine may stumble around and possible run lean. (Running lean on these engines isn't as bad as Gen 1 engines as the ECM will automatically pull timing to accomidate for it.)

Are you tuning the engine outside of the car?

[Ron.in.SoCal]

Now Doougie...you know better than to plan on running a motor with less than optimum tune! J/K bro...

You can prob fire the motor w that ECM and tune, but expect to get it tuned properly before you hit the road for all the obvious reasons. An alternative would be to use what you have (do you have one?) or get one from Speartech w a base tune either of which will require fine tuning (ie, Dyno or HP Tuners) w a different cam but it'll be close enough to fire up.

[CarlC]

Here 'goes Doug.

There are several different computers, ECM's as Jon points out, the came in GM cars that use the 58-tooth reluctor wheel in the LS2/3/7 etc engines. For what we do, and for the cost, the E38 is likely the best. The latest versions/best come in 2010+ 5th-gen LS-series Camaros and C6's. If you are considering having Pace supply the ECM, have them also supply the MAP, throttle body, MAF, and throttle pedal. In order to try and make them all connect and talk well with each other, see if Pace can order all of the parts from a common VIN. You can get a VIN off of EBAY from a for-sale car. The throttle pedal may be the oddball, but it sure is nice to be able to walk into a GM dealer if a part breaks and hand them a VIN to order from.

The 480hp tune in a 500hp motor should start and run around town fine. Just don't get on it. Take it to a competent chassis dyno tuner and have them work their magic. It will be worth every penny for a guy that is new to EFI. Then get HPTuners, EFILive, or some other laptop system so that you can monkey around with things.

Also, for what we do and your horsepower level, the MAF is really nice to have. The MAF supplied in the latest LS 5th gen/C6 are capable of FAR more than what you are doing. So is the throttle body.

Some other good things to consider:

1) Have a constant-power feed from the battery to the ECM. This bypasses all switches and cut-offs. If power is lost to the ECM all of the "learning" that the ECM does to fine tune the long term fuel trims will be lost.

2) Have O2 bungs in each collector for the main O2's. For each bank have one tube that has an additional bung that is placed approximately 18" from the header flange. This will help to get the tune even closer since the signal from the collector can be polluted by the other cylinders.

3) Mount the ECM where it is easy to get to. I never thought I'd be taking mine out. It's been out at least six times.

[DFRESH]

Excellent stuff--thank you guys. The ECM from Pace comes complete I believe, but will look into it further Carl--thanks for the advice. Will probably get a few more pointers from you at the RTTC event---or at my place afterwards for the Taco Cart dog pile. Great tip on the power feed--makes total sense--I wired up the Fast box this way on the drag car--but i've never heard it referred too as an ECM--LOL.

Doug

[DFRESH]

I don't have one---motor did not come with it---so will need to purchase. Ya, I figured it would probably be closer with the 480 tune--just wasn't sure of how the GM ECM's vary from let's say a FAST or Accell setup---they all operate off of a MAP and TPS from my experience---just not familiar with the factory GM setup yet. I figure I have a large learning curve coming up again. Luckily, I don't have to be the pioneer here---it's been done a couple of times already---

[Flash68]

What about the Mast M-90 Doug? You need all this stuff included here?

http://www.mastmotorsports.com/2010/product-view.php?cat=M-90%20Control%20Packages&id=238

[Mkelcy]

Excellent stuff--thank you guys. The ECM from Pace comes complete I believe, but will look into it further Carl--thanks for the advice. Will probably get a few more pointers from you at the RTTC event---or at my place afterwards for the Taco Cart dog pile. Great tip on the power feed--makes total sense--I wired up the Fast box this way on the drag car--but i've never heard it referred too as an ECM--LOL.

Doug

The GMPP ECM kit for the 480hp LS3 comes with two O2 sensors (and the harness is easily long enough to put the O2 sensors in the header collectors), the MAF, the drive by wire pedal, ECM, harness and a good fuse/relay panel.

I was planing on running my stock 480hp LS3 on the factory tune. Does anyone think the addition of headers would mandate a re-tune?

[The WidowMaker]

What about the Mast M-90 Doug?

do you know if the new m-120 is a renamed wide band m-90, or is it a different system? if youre not buying their motors, the mast stuff is REALLY expensive. the specs look amazing though.


Luckily, I don't have to be the pioneer here---it's been done a couple of times already---
but a few more guinea pigs wont hurt. let us all know how it works out.

[DFRESH]

What about the Mast M-90 Doug? You need all this stuff included here?

http://www.mastmotorsports.com/2010/product-view.php?cat=M-90%20Control%20Packages&id=238

Ya, Dave I actually looked at there stuff, along with Speartech. So far, most of the guys I have spoken with have used the factory setup since it can be hacked and tuned---yet is the least expensive with at or near same quality---and if orderd through companies like GMPP or Pace they come with everything you need including the pedal assembly.

[DFRESH]

The GMPP ECM kit for the 480hp LS3 comes with two O2 sensors (and the harness is easily long enough to put the O2 sensors in the header collectors), the MAF, the drive by wire pedal, ECM, harness and a good fuse/relay panel.

I was planing on running my stock 480hp LS3 on the factory tune. Does anyone think the addition of headers would mandate a re-tune?

It's a great question Mike---and I would like to know as well----I'm planning on running 1 7/8 on my setup or a step 1 3/4 to 1 7/8.

[DFRESH]

Doug,

I have the 430HP LS3 and am using the E38 GM unit that Speartech supplied me and my car is now running but not quite driving yet. I left the stock cam for now as I just want to get it going but plan to change. I did not even realize they listed a 480 and a 430 choice. I would think it would not much matter as you are gonna get a tune. That said for the same price I would get the 480HP. What cam are you going with?

Tom, the camshaft is a Comp Cams Part # 146-456-11 Specs are as follows;

Gross 607/621
Duration 268/284
@ 50 219/235
Lobe 113

Cam and springs came with the motor. Need to be installed.

Doug

[CarlC]

You should still have it re-tuned. The tune is EVERYTHING with these systems. There's a few more little tricks you can do to make the tune go better as well but they need to be done during the build. If you make sure I see Elvis at the taco bash I'll let loose with my secrets!

[DFRESH]

You should still have it re-tuned. The tune is EVERYTHING with these systems. There's a few more little tricks you can do to make the tune go better as well but they need to be done during the build. If you make sure I see Elvis at the taco bash I'll let loose with my secrets!

Dude--of course you are invited for that----I purchased the Top Gun Anthem song just for the event in your honor--I put it on my RTTC Ipod Mix---along with "Danger Zone".

[andrewb70]

The GMPP kit comes with the E67 ECU. Keep in mind that this kit is for manual transmissions only. There are no previsions for controlling the trans. I would start with the kit that most closely matches the cam you are using. The fuel curve is very closely related to the torque curve, which is directly related to the cam shaft selection. I have the LS7 kit, with the stock LS7 tune. My engine is a L92 with an LS7 cam. The drivability is perfect with the only issue being a slightly rich condition at WOT.

Andrew

[The WidowMaker]

There's a few more little tricks you can do to make the tune go better as well but they need to be done during the build.

uh oh. what do i need to do to get those secrets?

[ErikLS2]

2) Have O2 bungs in each collector for the main O2's. For each bank have one tube that has an additional bung that is placed approximately 18" from the header flange. This will help to get the tune even closer since the signal from the collector can be polluted by the other cylinders.



Carl, could you elaborate on this a bit? Is this additional sensor a wide band used only for tuning? There's no real way to feed into a stock computer. Since I'm about to put my engine in now would be the time to weld in a couple more bungs. Sorry for the partial highjack.

[CarlC]

For WB tuning only. On some long-tube applications where the O2 sensor is far downstream in the collector the sensor is not as hot as it is in OE applications. In OE manifolds the O2 is very close to the head, so the sensor gets hotter, and it is less susceptible to being polluted from colder reversion gasses, H and X-pipe effects, etc. In most cases it's not necessary, but the better the sensor placement, the better the tune.

[DFRESH]

For WB tuning only. On some long-tube applications where the O2 sensor is far downstream in the collector the sensor is not as hot as it is in OE applications. In OE manifolds the O2 is very close to the head, so the sensor gets hotter, and it is less susceptible to being polluted from colder reversion gasses, H and X-pipe effects, etc. In most cases it's not necessary, but the better the sensor placement, the better the tune.

One less taco you won't be getting now----LOL

Doug

[The WidowMaker]

are you done with your swap yet? :geek: its been like 3 days.

[tom_a]

Tom, the camshaft is a Comp Cams Part # 146-456-11 Specs are as follows;

Gross 607/621
Duration 268/284
@ 50 219/235
Lobe 113

Cam and springs came with the motor. Need to be installed.

Doug

Thanks Doug

[CarlC]

We should have an LS swap party at Doug's during RTTC2!

[Nessumsar]

Race Saturday on the stock engine, swap during the taco party, race on the ls! Beautiful idea Carl.

[DFRESH]

We should have an LS swap party at Doug's during RTTC2!

I'm totally down for that---only---need someone to bring the following:

Headers
Complete Accessory Drive System
ECM with pedal
Fuel system, preferebly with new "Vaporwerks" tank
Radiator and Fan setup to work with LS
Motor Mounts
Money

I'm happy to provide all the alky you want to drink this year if you bring this to the party instead.

Doug

[67zo6Camaro]

Im just bummed that you're going to an LS...next thing ya know you'll want to get rid of that peg leg. Man! my plan is foiled for RTTC2 and now Im going to need to up the HP to keep up.:fingersx:

[CarlC]

Jeez, can't even spell Vaporworx correctly.....

[DFRESH]

Jeez, can't even spell Vaporworx correctly.....

Oh yeah--sorry--there's already a knock off tank being made--it's German judging by the spelling "Werks".

Doug

[CarlC]

I'm going to carpet bomb the ba$tards.

[neki67]

I'm going to carpet bomb the ba$tards.

Yep, your daddy dealt a lot with those Germans, didn't he?

[Vegas69]

LS, what's next, a carbon fiber hood and trunk lid? HA HA

[wiedemab]

LS, what's next, a carbon fiber hood and trunk lid? HA HA



:lmao:

[DFRESH]

Negative, however that new Carbon Fiber Cross Ram Intake certainly has struck a chord though---can't get that thing off my mind---it would be the most retarded thing to buy--since i'd have to repaint and redo the entire car to match the quality and appearance of the manifold---but man oh man--I wish the mods would just delete that thread already----that thing is just a piece of artwork---even if it is Carbon Fiber---which I am beginning to warm up too.

Doug

[DFRESH]

Im just bummed that you're going to an LS...next thing ya know you'll want to get rid of that peg leg. Man! my plan is foiled for RTTC2 and now Im going to need to up the HP to keep up.:fingersx:

LOL Brett---I will never get rid of the one legger---I'm a member of the "One Legged Jihad" crew---once you get jumped in, you can't get out.

[Vegas69]

and you would be out of excuses..

[Nessumsar]

I'm sorry to do this to you Doug, but:

http://www.extrudabody.biz/servlet/the-281/V8-Kit-cln--Chevy-LS1/Detail

http://www.harrop.com.au/root_folder/harrop_manifolds/amfd7022-00.html

http://www.shiftkits.com.au/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=19_28&products_id=36

[DFRESH]

I'm sorry to do this to you Doug, but:

http://www.extrudabody.biz/servlet/the-281/V8-Kit-cln--Chevy-LS1/Detail

http://www.harrop.com.au/root_folder/harrop_manifolds/amfd7022-00.html

http://www.shiftkits.com.au/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=19_28&products_id=36

Jon, I'm surprised---those are actually resonably priced----totally useless---but affordable---lol

[DFRESH]

and you would be out of excuses..

Coming from anyone else, that would actually be offensive--but from you, it could be considered a compliment. Unfortunately, I do have a posi--which I hope to have in before RTTC---but, you know how that kind of stuff can go.

[DJW32]

Doug,

You can't go wrong with Speartech. John set me up with my ecu wiring...everything works great, too.

[DFRESH]

David, how much was your setup and did it come complete with the pedal, etc?

[The WidowMaker]

You can't go wrong with Speartech.

what would an advatage of a speartech harness be over a gmpp setup? i would think he could get the tune closer and i hear is customer service is great, but is there anything else?

[CarlC]

The GMPP harness is big. Did I mention it's big? Like, BIG. It is also a fixed-routing system, meaning that everyone has to use the same harness routing (unless you want to spend a lot of time reworking it.) With Speartech you can order the harness to route in a way that works for your application and ECM mounting location.

The GMPP does come more complete. It includes a power center, where the Speartech requires you furnish the power supply points.

[DJW32]

I used a 5.3 in my 70 chevy c-10, so I didn't use/need the special pedal. I think it was $400-500 to have John re-work the factory harness. In case you didn't know, John will take the factory harness and remove all the crap you don't need. John then labels every wire for easy installation. Oh yeah, the harness also comes with a OBDII output. I will use my OBDII hook up for all my gauges...temporarily. I will post a pic if the rain lets up anytime soon.

I used a tuner in the I.E. for my ecu.

[dj3]

Why not consider the Holley EFI system that doesn't require a tune and you can save 15% at Summit right now.

[Bow Tie 67]

I used the same setup Andrew did, but spent the time to rework the harness and use the 4th gen body harness to power it. Yes it was a major project, but I'm very happy with how everything worked out.

As far as tuning and sensor bungs, I use HP tuners and put the car into open loop mode then record O2 reading from the same bung the system O2's use.

[icemanrd19]

The GMPP harness is big. Did I mention it's big? Like, BIG. It is also a fixed-routing system, meaning that everyone has to use the same harness routing (unless you want to spend a lot of time reworking it.) With Speartech you can order the harness to route in a way that works for your application and ECM mounting location.

The GMPP does come more complete. It includes a power center, where the Speartech requires you furnish the power supply points.

So my wiring has begun. I honestly don't know where to start. I would like to keep the ecu and fusebox inside the car. Seems like I'm going to have to rework the harness slightly.

Where do i mount the big fuse panel?
The wires don't look long enough to mount the ecu under the seat
Anyone have some install pictures?

Any help would be great

[68sixspeed]

Wow, old thread!

I put the fuse block in front of the rf tire kind of where the battery tray was, and the cpu above that hung under the fender kind of hidden. Pm me if you want pics.

I have seen others put a big grommet on the firewall or tunnel and get the stuff under the dash too.

[icemanrd19]

yea i forgot i already have a spear tech grommet in my firewall. Im thinking i need to get creative and mount the ecu and fuse panel under the dash some how. What about the area in the kick panel?