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ACR-Mark
11-11-2010, 07:37 PM
1: What would the group think about "adjusting" the street tire treadwear rule from 200 to 180? Goodguys is using 180 in their rules, and this would open up some options for lower cost tires, especially the Kumho Ecsta XS. They have some really meaty sizes that would work well, and these tires aren't technically any stickier than any of the best 200's out there. SCCA uses 140 as their minimum rating, as anything on the market lower than that, at least that I'm familiar with, is considered an R-Compound. Except for Miatas running 140 Toyos, most of the winning tires in SCCA autocrosses are 180's and 200's.
I run the Kumho's on my RX-8, in addition to the 200 treadwear Dunlops, and though they don't offer quite the lateral grip of the Dunlops, they are far more tolerant of accelaration and hard braking. This would be beneficial to all the big V8's that have a lot of power to put down, and have huge brakes also in need of grippy tires to slow that powerhouse down.
The reason I ask is that one of the RTTH newcomers is about to buy his first set of extreme performance tires for his 2nd gen Camaro, and my honest recommendation to get the best bang for your buck would be the Kumhos. I think a lot of guys could benefit from the great performance, great tire size choices, and low comparative cost of these tires.

2: How about bringing back 2 driver cars? This can be accomplished fairly easy using any of the following:
A: Run the cars in 2 separate run groups, like Spectre did with their El Camino. The adhesive numbering that Bill came up with was great, easy to read, easy to peel off. When the first driver was done, the first set of numbers were removed, and the next driver applied his numbers for his run group.
B: This would be the method I would prefer: Use an SCCA style grid to line up the competitors, as opposed to the single file line that keeps feeding and moving. With a grid, once a car makes its run, it returns to its spot until the next run. Both drivers can run in the same group this way. You can peel and apply/reapply numbers, or have them both there, with one set covered up, or whatever. Simple details..... I can help with a grid setup next year.
Again, the reason I ask is because of that black 2nd gen Camaro. I am helping him with the car setup & tuning, and would like to drive that car next year instead of the RX-8. I drove it last weekend at an autocross event in Chattanooga. Horsepower is fun...

Derek69SS
11-11-2010, 08:41 PM
I agree with all of the above, the SCCA uses 140 min treadwear for it's "street tire" classes, as do most local autocross clubs for their street tire index classes, and the Milwaukee region's "National Street Tire Challenge". The Kumho XS is an awesome tire, and works a little better in the heat than the Dunlops, which makes them a better/safer track day tire too.

I know RTTH isn't SCCA, but some of us RTTH competitors also like to play in our local SCCA clubs, and would like to only need to own one set of tires to be competitive in both, or not have to choose a less competitive SCCA tire in order to be eligible for RTTH.

TonyBolton
11-12-2010, 06:01 AM
I'd certainly have no problem going by what the SCCA classifies as a street tire. I'll continue using my Nitto NT05's, but anything that helps broaden the street tire brands can only be a plus.

wmhjr
11-12-2010, 06:22 AM
I had a similar conversation with Scott Wahlstrom yesterday. I agree the lower rating doesn't really give a measurable advantage and opens up some options for people.

BTW, we also discussed the use of transponders for all the events, including the MMMC, MCC and RTTH. And we talked a bit about the "year of car" issue. Transponders could help to enable larger fields so you could include some later model cars a bit more easily.

01badz28
11-16-2010, 07:28 AM
I don't plan on running ST tires, so I don't have a dog in that fight. Broadening the rule to 140 makes sense, however.

I'd only really like to see the following changes:

1. Do away with the rolling grid.

2. Something (tshirts, plaques, whatever) for the R compound guys.

Otherwise, the event gets better and better every year. The more relaxed environment is a nice change of pace from the SCCA events.

Scott Parkhurst
11-16-2010, 08:16 AM
This all sounds great for Kumho. Does the event sponsor (BFG) have a suitable tire to offer?

Unless, of course, Kumho is planning to support this event?

I'm all for more traction, but without sponsors, this event (and others like it that BFG sponsors) won't prosper like they could. Several competitors were on BFGs and gunning for the reward money this year. I must also state that I wasn't one of them (I run Nittos), so I don't have a dog in this fight either. But if a rule change like this eliminates most or all the participants from using a sponsor product, it'll be really hard for them to justify staying on board.

Unless, as I stated, Kumho (or some other mfr with a suitable tire) is willing to step up and take BFGs place as a tire sponsor.

For what it's worth- I'm considering the purchase of some new tires for 2011, so if there is to be some change in this rule, I'd love to know it before I drop the dough for tires and end up with less than the max allowable rating. I was really hoping to step up and get the max allowable tire (200 tw) and I'll hold off for now, if this is up for debate and potential change.

TonyBolton
11-16-2010, 08:33 AM
I'm in the process of replacing tires and i'll be going again with the Nitto NT05's. They're about as sticky as you're gonna get for a street tire in "muscle car" sizes.

tommycomfort
12-18-2010, 02:11 PM
This all sounds great for Kumho. Does the event sponsor (BFG) have a suitable tire to offer?

Unless, of course, Kumho is planning to support this event?

I'm all for more traction, but without sponsors, this event (and others like it that BFG sponsors) won't prosper like they could. Several competitors were on BFGs and gunning for the reward money this year. I must also state that I wasn't one of them (I run Nittos), so I don't have a dog in this fight either. But if a rule change like this eliminates most or all the participants from using a sponsor product, it'll be really hard for them to justify staying on board.

Unless, as I stated, Kumho (or some other mfr with a suitable tire) is willing to step up and take BFGs place as a tire sponsor.

For what it's worth- I'm considering the purchase of some new tires for 2011, so if there is to be some change in this rule, I'd love to know it before I drop the dough for tires and end up with less than the max allowable rating. I was really hoping to step up and get the max allowable tire (200 tw) and I'll hold off for now, if this is up for debate and potential change.

Well said Scott! I think a lot of us forget that sponsors make a lot of these events possible and for that reason I am more than willing to give them my business. As far as treadwear goes, I am pretty sure that I will never be "competitive" based on the stickiness of my tires...
Tom

vintageracer
12-19-2010, 07:23 AM
Why not make the treadwear requirement 400 or higher?

Take the "sticky tire" out of the equation.

Then we can see who the REALLY GOOD driver's are!

Jim Nilsen
12-19-2010, 08:10 AM
When it comes to the tire rule for me, it really doesn't matter. I am running Kumho's soley because they had the size tire I was looking for and the 180 treadwear is what it is and I am able to compete in the Goodguys events and since it is just a peanut and under 35 mph I found I might be able to compete there. But to compete at any of the events against the higher dollar cars is futile, so I am going for the fun factor and run what I run.

I am with Scott on the sponsoring from BFG and why would they be there if noone was running their tires. On the other side of it all, BFG doesn't make any tire sizes that work for most people. in 17" sizes you are limited so bad that it only takes a second to see that you have to go somewhere else or go to 18" or 19" wheels. It is sad to me that BFG is so out of the reality about what sizes people want that you couldn't win if you want to because others have wider tires and better compunds that fit the rules.

I also have a bit of thing about how much more traction you get when you go wider and 200 tw vs narrower and 180 tw. At a certain point the wider tire at a lower tw will have as much or more traction than the narrower one at 180 tw in the corners. So how is the playing field ever going to be more even when it comes to tires without tire width also being part of the rule??

I would like to see the cars split up in 2 categories so the guy's that don't have over $50k in there cars can feel like there is a chance to compete with someone just a bit. I am just there for fun for the most part but it would be nice if you weren't lining up to compare apples to oranges in the competition.It would also make the fastest group of cars be able to maybe get better times without cars like mine that don't have the high HP.

All in all I wish I could have ran BFG's but until they step up to the track with some more sizes for 17" wheels it's their loss and if it means that they have no one at an event using there tires except for the sponsors and dealers who are not eligible for prizes maybe they will ask the right question as to why? The writing is on the sidewall and I don't think they are looking past the the sponsors for real world sizes.

Is anyone at BFG even seeing what is happening?

1969CamaroRS
12-19-2010, 08:19 AM
I would like to see the cars split up in 2 categories so the guy's that don't have over $50k in there cars can feel like there is a chance to compete with someone just a bit.

That's a good idea. Have a limited class (set the bar with the hobbyist in mind) and a unlimited class where the high dollar cars can slug it out.

musclecarmatt
12-19-2010, 08:30 AM
thats would be cool......i was thinking about getting the Kumho's for my car once i get my new wheels...

Derek69SS
12-19-2010, 05:36 PM
Why not make the treadwear requirement 400 or higher?

Take the "sticky tire" out of the equation.

Then we can see who the REALLY GOOD driver's are!
The only way to become a good driver is to do a lot of events, and anyone doing a lot of events isn't going to buy crappy tires on purpose... I know I don't want to have to buy another set of tires just to be eligible... I do think that consideration should be given to what the SCCA determines as a "Street Tire", as they are the largest sanctioning body of autocross in the US, and IMHO, it's good for the "Pro Touring" community in general if participants don't have to sacrifice performance in one series to be eligible for the other.


I would like to see the cars split up in 2 categories so the guy's that don't have over $50k in there cars can feel like there is a chance to compete with someone just a bit. I am just there for fun for the most part but it would be nice if you weren't lining up to compare apples to oranges in the competition.It would also make the fastest group of cars be able to maybe get better times without cars like mine that don't have the high HP.
I like that idea... some basic rules that separate the "pro" from the "touring".

Touring class would require full interior and have a tire size limitation (example: 1200mm total adding all 4 widths together) all factory glass, factory type frame or subframe.

Things that would bump you into "pro" would be things like roll cage, gutted interior, tires over X size, more than 2 non-factory body panels of lightweight material, aftermarket frame/subframe, etc. Maybe even allow R-comps in the "pro" class???

These are just ideas... I'd be willing to help with the logistics of putting a "class" system together. :)

musclecarmatt
12-19-2010, 05:42 PM
The only way to become a good driver is to do a lot of events, and anyone doing a lot of events isn't going to buy crappy tires on purpose... I know I don't want to have to buy another set of tires just to be eligible... I do think that consideration should be given to what the SCCA determines as a "Street Tire", as they are the largest sanctioning body of autocross in the US, and IMHO, it's good for the "Pro Touring" community in general if participants don't have to sacrifice performance in one series to be eligible for the other.


I like that idea... some basic rules that separate the "pro" from the "touring".

Touring class would require full interior and have a tire size limitation (example: 1200mm total adding all 4 widths together) all factory glass, factory type frame or subframe.

Things that would bump you into "pro" would be things like roll cage, gutted interior, tires over X size, more than 2 non-factory body panels of lightweight material, aftermarket frame/subframe, etc. Maybe even allow R-comps in the "pro" class???

These are just ideas... I'd be willing to help with the logistics of putting a "class" system together. :)


i like this idea!...going to run my camaro this year...i know just for fun but it be nice to have separate class like stated for some factory frame and leaf spring setup cars out there......

Scott Parkhurst
12-20-2010, 09:59 AM
i like this idea!...going to run my camaro this year...i know just for fun but it be nice to have separate class like stated for some factory frame and leaf spring setup cars out there......

Well...not all of our cars shipped with leafs originally...but I get your drift.

I'd think the logical move would be a class for stock frames (with bolt-ons) and one for aftermarket/custom chassis/custom subframe cars.

As one who has tried to use the best-possible bolt-on suspension goodies without modifiying the stock frame at all, I feel this separates the men from the boys. Once you commit to an aftermarket chassis, the performance should bump up to a level greater than what's possible with the stock frame. That's why it's done, right?

If the stock framerails are complete and unmodified front to rear (not narrowed, c-notched, etc.) and the factory suspension mount points are used, the car would qualify for the stock chassis class. This allows for custom crossmembers (for late-model engines/transmissions etc.) but limits potential suspension upgrades.

The aftermarket/custom chassis class would be for everything that isn't the above.

tazzz25906112
12-20-2010, 11:20 AM
Guys just some food for thought because at the end of the day I see it like this,,, the sticker the tire the quicker a qualified driver gets.... The insurance doesn't know who is quick and who isn't,,, they just look at ""risk"" and the risk goes up with sticker tires and speeds. When the risk becomes greater,,,, the events get more expense....

We're just developing as a community and beginning to be recognized as a decent market segment (based on the growth of events and coverage),,,, lets not worry about getting the last bit out of our cars (or ourselves) and concentrate on having a good time at an affordable rate... One bad accident and the insurance will run for the hills (no pun intended) and this will be all over.... Save the cost spread on tires and risk,,,, put it toward attending another event and having a blast...

The more events we have,,,, the more support the manufactures will step up with (both in financial support and product development for our cars).... In the end it's about having a good time without blowing your brains out.... If you want a taste of that just build a car to spec for a race series and campaign it for a season,,,, I'm sure it will cure most of this need for the extra speed...

Just food for thought....

Derek69SS
12-20-2010, 11:31 AM
I'd leave room for lots of modification allowances to the stock frame/subframe, but draw the line at a complete aftermarket frame, or IRS... Box it, weld it, reinforce it, gusset it, change pickup points, etc as long as it's still identifiable as a factory frame and retains a solid rear axle, allow it in the lower class. You'd want any rule like this to be pretty wide open, and very clear where the cutoff is, so that there's nobody protesting someone over a perceived "illegal" modification... that would take the fun right out of it real quick. You also don't want a 30-page rulebook to determine which class you'd fall into.

I'd like to hear what Bill has to say on the subject... in the end, it's all up to him, and I respect his decisions either way. :)

Ron S
12-20-2010, 04:06 PM
What has made our events so cool in my opinion, is the diversity of cars running. My fear is our events being taken over by a sanctioning body(NASA,SCCA,ETC.)and then the rule book comes out, and all the crap starts. Up until now its been the wild,wild west, and I for one like it that way.

I think Bill has done a good job keeping it fair, after all, its his blood, sweat, and tears putting these things together. Win loose or draw, I haven't been to one event that wasn't a blast.

Not one of us hasn't looked at the feild and said, I'll never beat that guy. Hell, I thought Kyle, and Penny were never going to get beat, now I think Marks new Camaro is unbeatable. Thats what keeps me tinkering with my junk, it makes me faster every event. I know she's changing it now, but Mary Pozzy's small block, leaf sprung Camaro held off almost the entire feild at Optima. Don't care what I'm driving, I want to run with the fast kids, even if I never win. Nobody is stopping you from stepping up.

Pick a tread wear number, and lets race. Be careful what you wish for, rules and different classes could end up destroying what I think is a great thing. Ron

vintageracer
12-20-2010, 04:28 PM
. I know she's changing it now, but Mary Pozzy's small block, leaf sprung Camaro held off almost the entire feild at Optima.

Hey Ron,

Kinda shows you what good driving ability will do for you doesn't it? All the high dollar parts and equipment will help to a degree but will still not overcome poor driving ability.

A LOT of folks need to consider that the BEST "Bang for Their" Buck is to be investing in themselves by going to a professional driving school and really learning how to drive rather than spending "Mo Money" for more horsepower or other crap on their car. Never underestimate the ability of a great driver to overcome the handicap of lesser equipmen!

protouring70
12-20-2010, 04:34 PM
Guys just some food for thought because at the end of the day I see it like this,,, the sticker the tire the quicker a qualified driver gets.... The insurance doesn't know who is quick and who isn't,,, they just look at ""risk"" and the risk goes up with sticker tires and speeds. When the risk becomes greater,,,, the events get more expense....

We're just developing as a community and beginning to be recognized as a decent market segment (based on the growth of events and coverage),,,, lets not worry about getting the last bit out of our cars (or ourselves) and concentrate on having a good time at an affordable rate... One bad accident and the insurance will run for the hills (no pun intended) and this will be all over.... Save the cost spread on tires and risk,,,, put it toward attending another event and having a blast...

The more events we have,,,, the more support the manufactures will step up with (both in financial support and product development for our cars).... In the end it's about having a good time without blowing your brains out.... If you want a taste of that just build a car to spec for a race series and campaign it for a season,,,, I'm sure it will cure most of this need for the extra speed...

Just food for thought....

I agree, it's all about fun and being able spend time with friends. And yes being competitive is part of it. But look at the other cars that are at your levels and go from there. If we make it too complicated then the events might go away. And we don't want that. So come and enjoy yourself!!!!

JEFFTATE
12-22-2010, 07:07 AM
What has made our events so cool in my opinion, is the diversity of cars running. My fear is our events being taken over by a sanctioning body(NASA,SCCA,ETC.)and then the rule book comes out, and all the crap starts. Up until now its been the wild,wild west, and I for one like it that way.

I think Bill has done a good job keeping it fair, after all, its his blood, sweat, and tears putting these things together. Win loose or draw, I haven't been to one event that wasn't a blast.

Not one of us hasn't looked at the feild and said, I'll never beat that guy. Hell, I thought Kyle, and Penny were never going to get beat, now I think Marks new Camaro is unbeatable. Thats what keeps me tinkering with my junk, it makes me faster every event. I know she's changing it now, but Mary Pozzy's small block, leaf sprung Camaro held off almost the entire feild at Optima. Don't care what I'm driving, I want to run with the fast kids, even if I never win. Nobody is stopping you from stepping up.

Pick a tread wear number, and lets race. Be careful what you wish for, rules and different classes could end up destroying what I think is a great thing. Ron

Ditto , Ron.
Ditto.

Glen Koenig
12-26-2010, 07:01 AM
So does a car have to be licensed and street legal for this event?

xxxturbo6
12-27-2010, 08:01 PM
So does a car have to be licensed and street legal for this event?

Well for the backwoods cruise it needs to be licensed and street legal, and in order to compete for the trophy's and prizes you need to complete all three events.


Scot W.

796spdbu
12-27-2010, 10:59 PM
Having been around all sorts of racing,I can say this. When you start making classes and rules..it will ruin an event. I remember building a few spec class 10.5 drag cars and having to sell them to bracket racers or completely redoing the car because the rules changed from one year to the next. I heard someone say maybe we should add a weight limit,I dont think that works either. Wieght can be over come by horsepower. If you take a 3000 lb. car with 350 h.p. and put it up against a 4200 lb car with 650 h.p. the heavier car will win. I just used numbers and by no mean shave I figured out the power to wieght ratio,please done flame me..its an example. Then you could say " well I can only fit a 275/40/17 under my car so im not as competative as the guys running 335/35/18..they have more tread width....so that dont work. Then there is the Tread Wear issue..It has been said the more grip the car has..the faster it will get away from you. A 200 TW will let you know when its about to let loose on you,a 140 will not. (again I have no personal evidence of this)but it came from a stand up guy.

Like Ron said its cool to run with the fast guys.. I enjoyed baeting my Camaro at Road America..That was pretty damn cool for me even if I sucked at my lap times. These events are put on to bring Gear Heads together and to have a great time. Its to put some miles down on the cars we have slaved over building for months and years on end. Lets not loose sight of why these events are put on because as soon as we do..its lights out..
You want these events to end up like the Fastest Street Car Shoot outs? Where he who has the deepest pocket wins? So far this isnt that way. Sure there are some high dollar cars out there that will be faster than the rest..Its life. Look at any sporting event..theres always a few who will stand out among the rest. This is no different. But as long as we still have a good time and keep the rules at bay,we can keep enjoying ourselves.

Let give thanks to guys like Bill Howell,Yance Johns,Danny Thomas,Brian Finch,Albert Melchior for putting these events together for us,Let us thank guys/gals like Kyle and Stacey Tucker from Detriot Speed, Frank from Prodigy Customs,The guys at ForgeLine Wheels, Bret Vockel from Ridetech,The Morrow family from Spectre,Jimi Day from FM3 marketing Cam Douglas from Optima and the other who I am forgetting,for sponsoring these events. With out these guys we wouldnt have these events.

Greg "GT" Tholen

HectorM52
12-29-2010, 04:43 PM
What has made our events so cool in my opinion, is the diversity of cars running. My fear is our events being taken over by a sanctioning body(NASA,SCCA,ETC.)and then the rule book comes out, and all the crap starts. Up until now its been the wild,wild west, and I for one like it that way.

I think Bill has done a good job keeping it fair, after all, its his blood, sweat, and tears putting these things together. Win loose or draw, I haven't been to one event that wasn't a blast.

Not one of us hasn't looked at the feild and said, I'll never beat that guy. Hell, I thought Kyle, and Penny were never going to get beat, now I think Marks new Camaro is unbeatable. Thats what keeps me tinkering with my junk, it makes me faster every event. I know she's changing it now, but Mary Pozzy's small block, leaf sprung Camaro held off almost the entire feild at Optima. Don't care what I'm driving, I want to run with the fast kids, even if I never win. Nobody is stopping you from stepping up.

Pick a tread wear number, and lets race. Be careful what you wish for, rules and different classes could end up destroying what I think is a great thing. Ron
Couldn't have said it better!!!

Derek69SS
12-30-2010, 02:57 PM
Right now, the "Run To" events are the only arena where a heavy vintage American musclecar can be reasonably competitive in autocross... I'd like for it to stay that way if possible.

The competition is going to get tougher every year, that much is certain. Competitive events draw competitive people, and competitive people will build what's required to win. In a few years, the only way to be competitive might be wide-bodied, 2700lb stripped down race cars with 10" of engine setback and IRS. Those cars are way cool and fun to watch, and I hope to build one like that myself someday (except the setback and IRS... mine will be CP legal) but they're not any fun to try to compete against with an average PT car.

I hope it never gets to that point, because it's still a lot of fun the way it is right now... but if it does start to move in that direction, I'd certainly hope that some very simple/basic rules separating the race cars from the street cars would be considered to keep these events as the best place for updated old overweight Detroit Iron to compete with each other...

I'm not complaining, just offering some advice (and offering to help with the legwork) on how to keep it fun and exciting for the average Pro-Tourer...

The Stickman
04-05-2011, 09:09 AM
Take it from someone who isn't going to win any of these events. My budget and vehicle choice will make sure of that. Just listen to Ron. We don't need rules. Right now people are building their cars to their liking. Start putting rules out there and you will start having cars to meet those rules. And then we start getting cars that are more and more alike rather than the diverse group we have now. I like the tread wear rule just because it keeps people from over spending on tires when there really isn't a need. Right now I can comfortably drive my car as is with no problems. But take away that tread wear rule and someone will show up with DOT race rubber. And then everyone else will follow that lead. And then you run into one of two problems. Either guys are trying to drive with DOT race tires on cold or wet pavement which isn't a good idea. Or they have multiple sets of tires which is just more money. Keeping things simple is the best approach and Bill has things well in hand.

stage2ROUSH
04-06-2011, 06:35 PM
I say ditti,ditto Ron !!!! lets just run we we brung/bring, have MORE fun and best of all learn more about what you and what YOUR car can do ,and best of all, get to be with and make more great friends.of coarse saying all that,I sure hope I get some more stuff for my stang so I can go faster.

Vegas69
04-06-2011, 08:27 PM
I skimmed through this thread. If you are really that interesting in winning, this isn't your best bang for your buck. The competition isn't that stiff. You can buy a Miata and run SCCA. An old dirt track car and run circle track, etc. This is for the love of the game. Me personally, I'm running exibition from now on because it makes the most sense for me. I run more SCCA local events that these pro touring events. Running on 300 treadwear BFG's is not anywhere near ideal against real SCCA drivers on A6's. I'll walk the middle ground with a set of r888's and run all the events on the same tire. It just makes sense for me. At the end of the day, 650hp and street tires aren't ideal. I feel safer on my r compounds in all venues.

sr73bu
04-06-2011, 09:00 PM
Ron has the right idea.. I think what draws most people is the "wild, wild, west" appeal of the RTT? events. Sign up, Show up and Run what you brung... I'm not really interested in a 20 page rule book telling me what type of seat belts or cage or tires i need. Until the RTTS, I always felt a roadcourse would be out of reach (mostly because of rules, regulations, track availabilty and $) What Bill has created is a series of events that allows guys like me (that tinker in their garage) to see what all that hard would has added up to... and something to look forward to improving... Will I win the next event I attend, Nope and I Don't care... everyone is out there to have fun... thats all I aim to accomplish. I don't want a trophy for the fastest car over 4000lbs, painted yellow, with a chevy 350. I like the rules now: 200 treadwear and don't be an ass. After that you could have 2,000hp.. who cares, if you are running a 200 treadwear tire and your a nice guy- go tear it up...

If you want more rules, you have options, look into NASA or the SCCA... I don't think it fair to start imposing thier rules on these events... thats when the techincal BS starts and the fun stops.


-Sean

66SuperSport
04-07-2011, 04:52 AM
Ron has the right idea.. I think what draws most people is the "wild, wild, west" appeal of the RTT? events. Sign up, Show up and Run what you brung... I'm not really interested in a 20 page rule book telling me what type of seat belts or cage or tires i need. Until the RTTS, I always felt a roadcourse would be out of reach (mostly because of rules, regulations, track availabilty and $) What Bill has created is a series of events that allows guys like me (that tinker in their garage) to see what all that hard would has added up to... and something to look forward to improving... Will I win the next event I attend, Nope and I Don't care... everyone is out there to have fun... thats all I aim to accomplish. I don't want a trophy for the fastest car over 4000lbs, painted yellow, with a chevy 350. I like the rules now: 200 treadwear and don't be an ass. After that you could have 2,000hp.. who cares, if you are running a 200 treadwear tire and your a nice guy- go tear it up...

If you want more rules, you have options, look into NASA or the SCCA... I don't think it fair to start imposing thier rules on these events... thats when the techincal BS starts and the fun stops.


-Sean



Very well said.

SicMonte
04-07-2011, 05:58 AM
Ron has the right idea.. I think what draws most people is the "wild, wild, west" appeal of the RTT? events. Sign up, Show up and Run what you brung... I'm not really interested in a 20 page rule book telling me what type of seat belts or cage or tires i need. Until the RTTS, I always felt a roadcourse would be out of reach (mostly because of rules, regulations, track availabilty and $) What Bill has created is a series of events that allows guys like me (that tinker in their garage) to see what all that hard would has added up to... and something to look forward to improving... Will I win the next event I attend, Nope and I Don't care... everyone is out there to have fun... thats all I aim to accomplish. I don't want a trophy for the fastest car over 4000lbs, painted yellow, with a chevy 350. I like the rules now: 200 treadwear and don't be an ass. After that you could have 2,000hp.. who cares, if you are running a 200 treadwear tire and your a nice guy- go tear it up...

If you want more rules, you have options, look into NASA or the SCCA... I don't think it fair to start imposing thier rules on these events... thats when the techincal BS starts and the fun stops.


-Sean

Well said Sean...well said.

barraza
04-07-2011, 08:12 AM
Right now, the "Run To" events are the only arena where a heavy vintage American musclecar can be reasonably competitive in autocross... I'd like for it to stay that way if possible.

The competition is going to get tougher every year, that much is certain. Competitive events draw competitive people, and competitive people will build what's required to win. In a few years, the only way to be competitive might be wide-bodied, 2700lb stripped down race cars with 10" of engine setback and IRS. Those cars are way cool and fun to watch, and I hope to build one like that myself someday (except the setback and IRS... mine will be CP legal) but they're not any fun to try to compete against with an average PT car.

I hope it never gets to that point, because it's still a lot of fun the way it is right now... but if it does start to move in that direction, I'd certainly hope that some very simple/basic rules separating the race cars from the street cars would be considered to keep these events as the best place for updated old overweight Detroit Iron to compete with each other...

I'm not complaining, just offering some advice (and offering to help with the legwork) on how to keep it fun and exciting for the average Pro-Tourer...

A lot of people want to be unencumbered with rules, and it is a natural desire, but the highlighted part is the truth. If you think SCCA started out with a plan to impose silly rules and strangle competition, you are delusional. They have been down the same road these events are on, and all the "stupid" rules were made by and for the competitors. Increased safety and competition were the primary drivers. Racing big HP cars will eventually mean some big crashes. I have been around racing my entire life, and I have always been amazed at how quickly people forget the destroyed cars and injured drivers from accidents. I think an uncaged car has no business on a road course whatsoever, but people will still bitch about safety rules. I heard of three deaths at amateur driving events last year, and Im sure that is not all of them. Insurance and liability concerns will probably push the safety rules, and competitors will push the classifications rules - just look at all the discussion these events bring now.

Fastest street car drag racing started the exact same way. Cars running in the 9's and 10's with a few back half cars int he 8's. Now there are dozens of classes and the top cars are tube frame beasts with $50K+ engines and in the 6's. Time and publicity will bring out the really big money, and the little guys will leave unless they have some level ground. Running around turning expensive tires into dust and having your butt handed to you for your trouble gets old eventually. It's not competition unless you have a chance, it's just driving around fast.

The Stickman
04-07-2011, 08:55 AM
A lot of people want to be unencumbered with rules, and it is a natural desire, but the highlighted part is the truth. If you think SCCA started out with a plan to impose silly rules and strangle competition, you are delusional. They have been down the same road these events are on, and all the "stupid" rules were made by and for the competitors. Increased safety and competition were the primary drivers. Racing big HP cars will eventually mean some big crashes. I have been around racing my entire life, and I have always been amazed at how quickly people forget the destroyed cars and injured drivers from accidents. I think an uncaged car has no business on a road course whatsoever, but people will still bitch about safety rules. I heard of three deaths at amateur driving events last year, and Im sure that is not all of them. Insurance and liability concerns will probably push the safety rules, and competitors will push the classifications rules - just look at all the discussion these events bring now.

Fastest street car drag racing started the exact same way. Cars running in the 9's and 10's with a few back half cars int he 8's. Now there are dozens of classes and the top cars are tube frame beasts with $50K+ engines and in the 6's. Time and publicity will bring out the really big money, and the little guys will leave unless they have some level ground. Running around turning expensive tires into dust and having your butt handed to you for your trouble gets old eventually. It's not competition unless you have a chance, it's just driving around fast.

I agree with what you are saying. But if what you are saying is true then making rules simply means those same people that will come in with a win at all costs mentality will build to the rules and I believe the cars will all start to look alike. I like the diversity of cars. And at RTTS we surely had that. I would not be opposed to more safety. But these are supposed to be street cars that we take to the track. And then the whole debate of a full cage in a street driven car comes up as to how safe that is. This is a very large can of worms to open.

Tony_SS
04-07-2011, 09:13 AM
It's not competition unless you have a chance, it's just driving around fast.

What sounds nice about the RTT_ events is that it does not sound like it's all about the competition. It's about having fun flogging on your car on the course as a responsible adult without a book of rules and regulations. That sounds like a blast to me. And it's great to have that option.

01badz28
04-07-2011, 09:18 AM
Generally speaking, if you have deaths at a parking lot autocross you have done something very wrong. The speeds are kept intentionally low, and the safety guidelines are such that it is approachable by a mass audience without the need to have things like roll cages, fire suppression systems and race suits. I've done every RTTH since an autocross was included, and they are safe. I don't think anyone is saying that we don't need to follow safety guidelines.

What this event doesn't need is a structured rule system, where you have an alphabet soup of classes like the SCCA. Part of the events charm is that everybody shows up and runs what they've got. Print off a 200 page rule and classing structure, and its no different than your standard SCCA event - and you lose the soul of the P-T event.

The Stickman
04-07-2011, 09:20 AM
It's not competition unless you have a chance, it's just driving around fast.

Sounds easy enough. Just take the competition part out. Not sure I heard anyone at RTTS say they were there to win. Sure would have been nice for anyone to win. But I never got the vibe that was what people were there for. Don't think anyone would miss it to be honest.

barraza
04-07-2011, 10:48 AM
Generally speaking, if you have deaths at a parking lot autocross you have done something very wrong. The speeds are kept intentionally low, and the safety guidelines are such that it is approachable by a mass audience without the need to have things like roll cages, fire suppression systems and race suits. I've done every RTTH since an autocross was included, and they are safe. I don't think anyone is saying that we don't need to follow safety guidelines.



I wasn't speaking about RTTH specifically, but since you mention it, there was a crash when they ran the autocross at the oval track. I didn't run that day because I had no desire to get on an oval track with my street car. It turned out relatively minor, but could have easily been worse. SCCA used to have guidelines about speeds, but I don't know if they still use them. The problem for them was that a 60mph course appropriate for a Miata became 100mph when done by a Z06. I'm not trying to be a killjoy, but it is not accurate to depict other race organizations as having made their rules to stifle fun. Fifty years ago the SCCA was all about fun, and the rules were minimal even by RTT_ standards. Things changed because they learned about safety and competition, not for some nefarious reasons.

barraza
04-07-2011, 11:24 AM
Sounds easy enough. Just take the competition part out. Not sure I heard anyone at RTTS say they were there to win. Sure would have been nice for anyone to win. But I never got the vibe that was what people were there for. Don't think anyone would miss it to be honest.

I would call B.S.

Turn off the timers and you would have a mutiny.

Without the current tire rule, half the cars there would have been on R-compounds. Any talk about rules is all about people concerned about competition. Do you think the Optima Challenge wasn't about competition?

I'm not saying the rules need to be anything overbearing, just some basics like a minimum weight, and the existing tire rules. Any car run for time must be owned by the driver. A year cutoff would be appropriate also. Get on a road course and everything changes though. High speed road course work should be done to current nasa/scca safety standards. Anything less is inviting a lawsuit.

01badz28
04-07-2011, 11:42 AM
I wasn't speaking about RTTH specifically, but since you mention it, there was a crash when they ran the autocross at the oval track. I didn't run that day because I had no desire to get on an oval track with my street car. It turned out relatively minor, but could have easily been worse. SCCA used to have guidelines about speeds, but I don't know if they still use them. The problem for them was that a 60mph course appropriate for a Miata became 100mph when done by a Z06. I'm not trying to be a killjoy, but it is not accurate to depict other race organizations as having made their rules to stifle fun. Fifty years ago the SCCA was all about fun, and the rules were minimal even by RTT_ standards. Things changed because they learned about safety and competition, not for some nefarious reasons.

I'm not arguing with you about the purpose of the safety regs at all. They serve a purpose. Sometimes you can have an overzealous SS that can ruin your day, however.

I was there for that one. The thing about 411 is that SCCA Solo safety guidelines typically won't allow for an autocross to be run on a prepared race surface like 411. Nashville gets special dispensation to run on the oval, but they have to avoid the banked part of the oval where the walls are. Thats why ETRSCCA never ran at 411, and the events that were there were put on by other organizations without such considerations.

Every autocross accident that has involved serious property damage since I got started (2004) has usually involved the following: 1) Mustang, Camaro, or a Corvette (and the Chevelle you mentioned earlier); 2) Street tires; 3) Inexperienced and aggressive driver. Whenever you have a high performance car, you raise the risk of having an incident due to the increased speeds involved. The best an event organizer to do is make the course as safe as possible and have a plan in place if an accident takes place. You'll never be able to 'idiot proof' a motorsports events - you will just have a bigger idiot show up.

With respect to RTTH, we have several competitors (myself included) that run R-compounds. We just aren't competing for the trophies at the end of the day.

79-TA
04-07-2011, 11:52 AM
Sounds easy enough. Just take the competition part out. Not sure I heard anyone at RTTS say they were there to win. Sure would have been nice for anyone to win. But I never got the vibe that was what people were there for. Don't think anyone would miss it to be honest.

Forget the absolutist either-or arguments. The RTT events are a mix of competition and fun. There's no need to compromise either aspect for the sake of the other.

barraza
04-07-2011, 02:40 PM
You'll never be able to 'idiot proof' a motorsports events - you will just have a bigger idiot show up.

With respect to RTTH, we have several competitors (myself included) that run R-compounds. We just aren't competing for the trophies at the end of the day.

That course at 411 was poorly designed. I know you will never idiot proof an event, but RTT_ events appeal to novice competitors, and course designers need to take that into consideration. Many of these cars have hugely more HP than at a typical event, and thus require more runoff room, and checks to insure speed doesn't get out of control. Especially if allowances are made for safety strictness.

The issue with R-compound rubber is to reduce the cost for everyone. Competitors shouldn't feel that they need special tires to compete.

I don't want to sound like I am criticizing these events because I'm not. I think they are a great way to introduce people to autocrossing. They are also a great way for people with older, heavily modified cars to compete, without being place in classes with racecars like they would be at a normal SCCA event. I'm just saying that eventually rules will have to be put in to keep things fun, instead of about who can spend the most money and hire the best driver. I also think there are huge differences between autocrossing and events at a real racetrack. You screw up at an autocross, you should have a bent ego or at most a bent fender. Screw up at the Optima race or Road America, and without proper safety equipment - you may be dead.

SLO_Z28
04-07-2011, 03:00 PM
FWIW 140 treadwear is still a real street tire. Since this is a BFG sponsored event, why not allow the BFG R1's? Its a great tire, and isn't any more dangerous than any other tire.

79-TA
04-07-2011, 10:09 PM
^Yes, it is more dangerous. More grip = more cornering speed = more overall speed anywhere you might happen to have an incident.


While the R1's are 40 tw DOT legal tires, they are still R compounds and need a good warmup to get up to temperature to operate properly. They'll still offer great grip when cold, but if the driver has already learned the course with the tires up to temperature, going out on cold tires can catch one by surprise. It happens to the pros all the time. Trackday organizers always go out of their way to figure out who is running R compounds so they can remind them to take it easy on their first couple of laps.

Also, grippier tires tend to be less forgiving at the limit of grip. That is, they lose grip more suddenly. Part of this is that things are happening at faster speeds under greater loads. The other part is that is just the compromise for having more overall grip.


200 tw makes a lot of sense and is a really nice compromise. I understand the argument for 180 tw tires (this mostly affects those who want to run Ecsta XS's or AD08's) and I wouldn't be for or against a change to 180. 140 is too much though. I don't care how the SCCA defines it.

Vegas69
04-07-2011, 10:40 PM
Say what you want, Bill isn't changing his mind. This thread is proof enough of why we don't need this getting to serious.

01badz28
04-08-2011, 04:36 AM
That course at 411 was poorly designed.

Prior to the Chevelle going into the wall, the last car to hit a wall there was a 911 approximately 10 years prior. Considering both PCA and the SVT Cobra Club ran 3-5 events every year there (with the same course layout), I'd say two accidents in ten years is a pretty good safety record. Those events also had a good number of new and novice drivers, as autocross and track events is not the focus of either organization.

Motor racing at any level isn't safe, all you can do is try to mitigate the damages.

The Stickman
04-08-2011, 07:02 AM
FWIW 140 treadwear is still a real street tire. Since this is a BFG sponsored event, why not allow the BFG R1's? Its a great tire, and isn't any more dangerous than any other tire.

Not sure I would want to run them on the street in the rain. Or for that matter anywhere in the rain.

The Stickman
04-08-2011, 07:35 AM
Forget the absolutist either-or arguments. The RTT events are a mix of competition and fun. There's no need to compromise either aspect for the sake of the other.

I guess what I should have said was that it's ok to keep score just not make it count for anything. As long as nothing is up for grabs then most won't take it so serious they are building cars just to win an event.

HectorM52
04-08-2011, 07:56 PM
One rule that really doesn't have a lot to do with the drivers, cars, tires, etc...is I think we should limit the proximity the spectators are to the racing at the RTTH event. I just have those videos of quarter-mile races that are going up the public street lined with people and all of the sudden the car veers off into the crowd and all you can see are flying bodies... makes me shudder just thinking about it.

Just something for everyone to ponder for the next 5.5 months leading up to RTTH.

SLO_Z28
04-09-2011, 07:05 AM
Not sure I would want to run them on the street in the rain. Or for that matter anywhere in the rain.

Theyd do better than the eagle dragway specials I drove in the rain a few times >.< . I wouldnt want to drive them in the rain, but I wouldnt be afraid to either, theyd be OK.

barraza
04-11-2011, 01:44 PM
Prior to the Chevelle going into the wall, the last car to hit a wall there was a 911 approximately 10 years prior. Considering both PCA and the SVT Cobra Club ran 3-5 events every year there (with the same course layout), I'd say two accidents in ten years is a pretty good safety record. Those events also had a good number of new and novice drivers, as autocross and track events is not the focus of either organization.

Motor racing at any level isn't safe, all you can do is try to mitigate the damages.

Actually, I think it was a nova that hit the wall, or was there another?

I would call any autocross that results in a car hitting a wall a colossal failure. Unless the accident was a result of a part failure. Simple driving errors shouldn't result in contact with walls in an autocross. The course design had a straight high speed section pointed directly at the outer wall of the oval. An appropriate design would have had a chicane of some type before getting out onto the oval. Just because no one hit it recently doesn't make it a good design. Yes, there is some risk in everything, but you don't design a autocross with a wall at the outside of a braking zone. It was a poor design.

tazzz25906112
04-11-2011, 02:06 PM
Wow gang I thought Bill made himself pretty clear the last time one of these "lets consider changes/classes etc. threads came up"..... Bill's events are for fun, if he sees a danger it will be address without discussion I'm quite sure,,,,,, other than that enjoy the fun because as the old saying goes "if it ain't broken don't fix it".... Bill does a great job and the events are fun,,, stop period end of....

protouring70
04-11-2011, 03:00 PM
Your right Albert. Bill has done this enough and he is looking out for everyones best interests and keeping it simple and fun at the same time. So everyone come and enjoy yourselves!!!!



Wow gang I thought Bill made himself pretty clear the last time one of these "lets consider changes/classes etc. threads came up"..... Bill's events are for fun, if he sees a danger it will be address without discussion I'm quite sure,,,,,, other than that enjoy the fun because as the old saying goes "if it ain't broken don't fix it".... Bill does a great job and the events are fun,,, stop period end of....

1981silverz28
07-04-2011, 02:32 PM
Look at all the rules the different states have for you to be able to operate a motor vehicle on the highway and look at how many wrecks happen every minute . They DOT has very well paid engineers to design roads and expensive equipment to buid them and professionals to operate that equipment. AND ACCIDENTS STILL HAPPEN !!!!!!!!!!! Look at NASCAR and all its rules and INDY cars and thier rules AND THEY STILL HAVE ACCIDENTS . When Bill started RRTHs it was to get like minded car people together to socialize and have fun with the cars that they have built( or had built) . To say that the autocross was laid out wrong at the 411 is wrong . It was using what he had available .Billy Uttley hit the wall as a result of an accident , they happen all the time . And now Billy has one of the baddest Novas I've seen and can drive the wheels off it ! You can have one when you pull out of your driveway in the morning . Does the state rules prevent all accidents ? Are the roads "accident proof" ? Where in the he!! is peoples common sense? I don't have the car nor the driving skill to "compete " with Brian Finch , Kyle ,Stacey ,Bill Howell , Yancy Johns,Or most of the other guys at these events but I have just as much fun as they do . We need a few basic safety rules to keep us in line but when you get things too complicated these events will lose people . I was at the 1st RTTHs and have enjoyed watching it grow to what it is now and would hate to see it stall out with people building racecars with license plates just to compete.

Atomic 67
07-04-2011, 03:37 PM
Great comments...this week I bought a new set of BFGs and it was not as simple as I thought it would, actually still need to have a wheel spacer made tomorrow to ensure no tire scrubbing at GoodGuys Columbus. I almost went with another brand because tires sizes were somewhat limited in the BFGs, but at the end of the day, I kept hearing one of Bill's soap box sponsor support speaches ringing in my skull...clearly too haunting to ignore. Granger, buy BFG...soooo I did. Bill will not be able to chant in the future"....cheater, cheater...180, bla, bla, bla..." Bill, I hope you show up in Columbus. My vote is keeping this as simple as possible...and I agree improving driving skills is the real time saver! Bill Albert see you at driving schoold in a few weeks.

johngross
07-09-2011, 08:45 PM
If you want it perfectly safe, make the straightaways 12 foot long, the lanes 7 foot wide and add speed bumps, with huge cone penalties, and it will PROBABLY be safe. It just won't be any fun.

vintageracer
07-10-2011, 05:45 AM
If you want it perfectly safe, make the straightaways 12 foot long, the lanes 7 foot wide and add speed bumps, with huge cone penalties, and it will PROBABLY be safe. It just won't be any fun.


Sounds like a challenging and very "technical" course!



As I continue to read the varied thoughts and ideas "I" believe the real safety issues are NOT with the autocross events but are with the Open Track/Road Course events. Big engines, heavy cars, in-experienced driver's, average brakes and limited safety equipment requirements will eventually result in a serious accident. It's coming at a Road Course event it's just a matter of time!

Just like back in the day (60's/70's) our type of cars are fast as Hell in the straightaways and slow and cumbersome in the turns. Nobody wants to get passed so it's "hammer down" on the straightaway's as fast as I can get the car going. OH CRAP! I'm and of the straightaway and NOW I have to stop and turn!!!!! Yes today the brakes and suspensions are better than way back when however see are still talking about 3,500-4,000 lb cars in most cases with more horsepower than back in the day and far LESS experienced driver's at the wheel!

Nobody likes rules and that includes me. RULES are necessary to protect YOU from YOURSELF!

Right now to run the Road Course events all you have to do is you pay to enter your car, bring your car & pass a half A$$ tech inspection and your golden to drive on the track at speeds that could be well beyond your ability to drive your car. This has to change! This ultimate change in the "rules" will not make a lot of people happy since the result will be to limit the type of car (level of preparation) and maybe limit the driver based upon experience (driver's school) that are allowed on the track. Even the 24 hours of Lemons group has better safety requirements for Road Course Track events than we do.

Yes the Lemon's guys are driving junk! From a safety requirements & safety equipment standpoint on a Road Course the Lemon's cars are much safer "Junk" than many of us in the PT group put out on the Road Course track!

Dane Laney
07-14-2011, 12:24 AM
I will be joining you guys for the first time at RTTHs, and I have a couple of questions,, what are the rules, relulations, tires, classes, ext,: how soon can I find out for sure, before I buy something I can't use, Also, when I sighned up and paid on line, was I supposed to give my car number, what class my car is in, as I see there was discusion on this matter. I really feel lost now,, I am familiar with the events I run in, but not here,, would someone put me in the right direction so I'm not that unprepaired guy slowing down everyone and everything at this wonderfull event ????

Tucks69
07-14-2011, 01:35 AM
If the rules are like last year, a 200 treadwear tire is the minimum. There is only 1 class everybody runs together. Bill supplied us with a decal with our number for the whole weekend. Basic safety rules secured battery, seatbelts, helmet, no loose items in the car. Our events are kinda laid back, we are all there to have a good time. Run the best times we can and improve our driving skills. I have been the last 3 years and look forward to it each year. I am sure Bill and Larry will chime in with the rules for this year. Welcome to the group!

Bill Howell
08-25-2011, 01:34 PM
Guys, I am working on rules for all the events for next year now so we have the same rules regardless of where we run. As far as RTTHs go, 200 TW or greater has always been the rule and will continue. In the Spirit of Street, and IMO, it isn't a street tire if it is less than 200TW. Most tires with a smaller than 200 have Race compound also.
200 is a mark I put in the sand and until someone can convince me otherwise, that is where the mark will stay. I have heard all the arguements, and I have owned tires with TW100 (toyo888). I know from experience that you do not feel safe on those in the rain and since we are all about driving our cars, you need wipers and tires that can handle a rain storm. It also helps the novice driver get used to a track situation before they set up for track days and TW60 tires.
I have been accused of being told what to do from tire companies and that simply isn't true. Our tire supporter BFG offers KDWs at TW300. IF they were influencing this decision, don't you think the mark would be closer to their offering? Think about it.
This year I have done alot of track days and am to the point I am thinking about another set of wheels and some sticky tires for the charger, however, that said, all the RTT events will still be TW200.
I hope this clears things up for you.

vintageracer
08-25-2011, 01:48 PM
Are you trying to tell us you cannot be bought? You have morals? You have scrupples?

What the Hell is wrong with you?

Quote from one my "favorite" movies Used Cars:

"What the Hell is this world coming to. It used to be when bought a politician the SOB stayed bought!!!"

The Stickman
08-25-2011, 05:37 PM
Guys, I am working on rules for all the events for next year now so we have the same rules regardless of where we run. As far as RTTHs go, 200 TW or greater has always been the rule and will continue. In the Spirit of Street, and IMO, it isn't a street tire if it is less than 200TW. Most tires with a smaller than 200 have Race compound also.
200 is a mark I put in the sand and until someone can convince me otherwise, that is where the mark will stay. I have heard all the arguements, and I have owned tires with TW100 (toyo888). I know from experience that you do not feel safe on those in the rain and since we are all about driving our cars, you need wipers and tires that can handle a rain storm. It also helps the novice driver get used to a track situation before they set up for track days and TW60 tires.
I have been accused of being told what to do from tire companies and that simply isn't true. Our tire supporter BFG offers KDWs at TW300. IF they were influencing this decision, don't you think the mark would be closer to their offering? Think about it.
This year I have done alot of track days and am to the point I am thinking about another set of wheels and some sticky tires for the charger, however, that said, all the RTT events will still be TW200.
I hope this clears things up for you.

Bill I agree with you about the tires. Otherwise it becomes an arms race so to speak. I have run DOT R tires for autoX and track events and I wouldn't drive them in damp conditions let alone wet. Heck my Goodyear GSCS didn't even like grooved highways.

Jim Nilsen
08-29-2011, 04:28 AM
The only thing that makes me have a problem with the 200tw rule is simply this.

You can't get any fn 17" tires from anyone in a width wider than 275 unless you go to Kumhos and they are 180tw. I totally agree with the saftey of tires in the rain and my Kumhos are safe in the rain like you want and they really don't offer anymore grip than a Nitto 18" 285 200tw tire. Ask Karl Dunn in the mustang how close we were to the same grip. I think he actually had more but I couldn't tell if his tires were screaming for as much help as mine with the engines running so loud ,lol.

Does a 17"180tw 285 have any more grip than a 18"200tw 315 or 335 in the other tires?

Maybe we could make the tw rule to include width and dia? I know the guys on 200tw with 315 or 335 have more grip by far. Some of us just don't have the room for that big of a tire either.

I don't really care about winning as much as playing and I am very thankful that I get to play and that alone makes every event I attend worth it for me but I won't be able to have anyway to get close to the same tire with 17" wheels and just 275's to choose from at BFG. They are working on it they say but until then it just makes it impossible for me to even be in the same ballpark until they do.

I know you are looking for a good enough reason to change the rule, so maybe this is a good compromise? get me 18" wheels and I can get anything I want in tires. so until then the rules really are against me and a lot of others until we get 18" wheels . I also remember the big debate about wheel size and brakes and 17" being the best choice but it sure isn't anymore with the rules.

Did I say I love just going and having fun and seeing everyone and really don't care!!! But do you really want to exclude guys like me who are in a smaller boat just because of 20 little tw numbers?

Take my money and let me run, that's all I ask!!

ty1295
08-29-2011, 06:31 AM
I am in the same boat as Jim Nelson. 17" rims leave you very little for tire choice. For now I will just come to have fun, which is what the event is anyways right? I didn't see any big $$ prizes listed. My 180tw Kumho tires will keep me out of the for fun trophies though it appears.

BFG doesn't even make tires in my size anymore. Not sure why guess all the tire manufactures jumped to the 18" arena leaving us small rim guys behind. :(

LeadSSled
08-29-2011, 07:19 AM
I am in the same boat as Jim Nelson. 17" rims leave you very little for tire choice. For now I will just come to have fun, which is what the event is anyways right? I didn't see any big $$ prizes listed. My 180tw Kumho tires will keep me out of the for fun trophies though it appears.
+2
I am in the same boat with 17" wheels. a 180TW would certainly open up more choices. But I understand how the "Golden Rule" works. Those with the gold make the rules, and we will live by them. ;)

wmhjr
08-29-2011, 08:45 AM
Guys, let's leave Bill Howell alone.... It's not "he who has the gold makes the rules". Look at it this way. You can make an argument that a 315 200tw tire is more "sticky" than a 275 180tw tire. But how do you validate it? Where do you draw the line? Bill and others are already spending a huge amount of their own time running these events, and they need to keep it simple. 200tw simplifies things for tech and qualification. It sucks that there aren't more options in different sizes, but there is no magic silver bullet here. No matter what, rules will always put some people at a disadvantage over others.

LeadSSled
08-29-2011, 09:00 AM
Perhaps my comment was taken out of context. What I meant was - This is Bill's event and he has the power/authority/burden to set the rules. I'm just happy to be invited to the party. If Bill wanted everyone to run on F70-15 bias ply studded snow tires, I would still be happy to be there. Bill does a great job with this event and I'm fine with whatever rules are set.

That being said, the original intention of this thread was to solicit feedback on this rule. I was only giving my feedback. The intention was not to whine or complain to or about Bill. So if that is how it came across with my last post, I apologize; that was not my intention. At 4200 lbs., I'm used to being at a disadvantage and tires likely wouldn't help much anyway. I'm just there to have some fun.

Yelcamino
08-29-2011, 09:21 AM
At 4200 lbs...

Wow! Somebody has a car that is actually heavier than my El Camino!

Jim Nilsen
08-29-2011, 09:34 AM
I am in the same boat as Jim Nelson. 17" rims leave you very little for tire choice. For now I will just come to have fun, which is what the event is anyways right? I didn't see any big $$ prizes listed. My 180tw Kumho tires will keep me out of the for fun trophies though it appears.

BFG doesn't even make tires in my size anymore. Not sure why guess all the tire manufactures jumped to the 18" arena leaving us small rim guys behind. :(

BFG is working on it and maybe by the time we wear our kumhos out they will have them for us? So until then we have to go and push hard and then see if we actually run better on wider tires with a higher tw rating. We will be the proof in the puddin if we run faster on the newer BFG's that it isn't a big deal to us.

wmhjr
08-29-2011, 10:13 AM
BTW, I sure wasn't trying to say anyone was whining at all. I have some limitations myself that I need to deal with (beyond my mental ones :) ) I was just trying to make sure we all don't underestimate why Bill and other organizers are trying to manage to requirements that might otherwise seem trivial to change.

ty1295
08-29-2011, 10:24 AM
BFG is working on it and maybe by the time we wear our kumhos out they will have them for us? So until then we have to go and push hard and then see if we actually run better on wider tires with a higher tw rating. We will be the proof in the puddin if we run faster on the newer BFG's that it isn't a big deal to us.

When I win the BFG contest I will ask them for tires in my size and see what they say. Actually I have owned BFG tires in the past and had no issues with them. Would probably again if they had 17" sizes.

I have spoken to Bowler about the same issue. I FULLY understand the rules in terms of no matter where they are set someone always asks for them to be waived or exception made for their case. If the TW was changed to 180 someone would want 160TW. Fact is I am up there with the other guys sporting 4,000 lbs of vehicle around, probably a bit more top heavy then anybody else. If I wanted to compete this isn't the car/truck I would run. Just here for the fun and very thankful people such as Bill and others put so much effort into these events for all of us to enjoy our rides in a way not legally possible or safe on public roads.

vintageracer
08-29-2011, 10:41 AM
You could look at the rules this way.

Don't like em don't come to the event.

Find another sandbox to play in!!!

Derek69SS
08-29-2011, 11:03 AM
Here's a few reasons why I believe 140tw would be beneficial to most everyone involved...

1: Tire availability, especially for 17s... A somewhat common 17" combo of 275/40 and 315/35 yields very few choices anymore as manufacturers head toward more 18"+ sizes. A search of performance street tires include:
-Kumho Ecsta XS - 180tw - $780/set
-Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3 - 280tw - $1266/set
-Sumitomo HTR-Z - 160tw - $568/set
-Nitto NT05 - 200tw - $780/set
-Nitto NT555 - 300tw - $764/set

If you can't fit the 275s in front, then the Goodyears won't work either, as they don't make any smaller sizes. The Nitto NT555s in 315/35/17 are currently on backorder. That leaves NT05 as the only choice. There's no guarantee that they will be available when you need them.

2: Tire testing... We all want to buy the "best", or at least the "best value" in most cases. In sizes where there are several tires to choose from, how do we know what tire is really the best? Has anyone done any back-to-back repeatable tire testing between Nitto, BFG, Dunlop, etc? Such a test would be quite expensive, but if opened up to 140tw, we could use the data already figured out by the SCCA guys. They've compared the tires, and in my experience, they're willing to share their findings. They'll also tell you which work best hot, which work best cold, which provide more lateral grip, which provide more longitudinal grip, which work better on lightweight cars, which work best on heavy cars, etc. Best of all, you can get this data from local autocrossers so you don't make the same mistake I did on my first set of tires. (after reading reviews from guys in California on corner-carvers I bought Kumho Ecsta MX's which work great when hot... but I live in Minnesota, and we sometimes autocross in temps way below where those tires work)

3: Continuity with other sanctioning bodies: SCCA, "National Street-Tire Challenge" organizers, and many local clubs use 140tw for their "street tire" definition (They also reserve the right to create an "exclusion list" to keep the mfr's from producing R-comps with a 140tw rating since tw ratings are an arbitrary number anyway) Competitors who are active in local autocross events may have already purchased something like the Kumho Ecsta XS or Hankook Ventus RS-3 which are both excellent tires for heavier more powerful cars. They may want to participate in "Run to" and other OUSCI qualifying events, but buying a 2nd set is cost-prohibitive for competing in a single event.

Drawbacks... there's only one that I can see, and it's temporary. Those who already have 200tw tires (myself included) will have some tougher competition until we need new tires. (and if you autocross enough to be concerned about the competition, that shouldn't take too long).

For safety, some of the <200tw tires may actually be more predictable. I've driven on the XS and RS-3 and they do not easily overheat like my 200tw Dunlops do... If you've ever overheated a tire mid-run with no prior indication of fade, that can be very unsafe. It's happened twice to me and it's scary as hell if you're not expecting it. The 140tw Toyos would fade too, but they don't make them in big enough sizes for us anyway. I agree that something like the R888 is not safe on the street, but the R888, V700, A6, etc are all sold as "competition" R-compound tires and are well under the 140tw rating. All of the 140+tw tires have adequate tread for wet conditions.

I'll still participate either way, (assuming I get my car back together) but more tire options would be appreciated. :twothumbs

Jim Nilsen
08-29-2011, 03:38 PM
You could look at the rules this way.

Don't like em don't come to the event.

Find another sandbox to play in!!!

Events don't happen without all of us which is why I pay to play for fun even if I can't win any of the prizes. The best prize for me is when they accept me for what I bring and let me out on the track to play with everyone.
Best example going is the Heidt's event, almost didn't get enough people to have the funds to make it possible and in the end we all had so much play time and the event ran so well that there was actually room for twice as many of us and we would have still had more track time than most events you would ever go to. Jimi Day had it so well set up that we were running damn near 3 cars every 2 minutes at the autox. At the goodguys event we were lucky if we had 1 car running every 3 minutes, which only let most of us get 5 runs all day compared to 5 runs an hour at the autobahn.

Bill Howells events get you out there with as much time as your car can handle and there are quite a few exibition cars running just to have fun and give us all something to compare ourselves to. Without all of the different cars to give us benchmarks we would really be lost in what the bar is at. The way things are going at some events Bill will have to make it so there are not as many cars that aren't set up for the rules to get us all in. So the line will be drawn someday and the guy's like me who run for fun because we don't comply will have to comply or not run. It is a double edge sword that makes it so it will get harder to get in for newer cars and exibition/vendor cars that don't help support the event. We wouldn't have theses events without sponsors and the sponsors don't win anything so i am not the only one who is just there there to play.

Right now I like the rules the way they are but when an event isn't filling up, run groups set up to compete would bring more people in. It's all about how the giveaways are done that seems to make some wish they could win something but I have never ever gone home without something at a PT event put on by Bill and the status of being able to say I won or placed isn't that important compared to the people you get to meet and share the weekend with.

The SCCA doesn't have a class that I fit in except against full on race cars and I am sure they really don't want me out there running like a brick in the track to go around which is why the rules keep me away from their events like you describe as playing in someone elses sandbox.

It is a good thing the track goes around in left to right circles or I would think I was going around in circles in this thread for nothing,lol.

BFG is listening and when they get it together they will have the lock on the tires we need to make it so they can be proud to see all the cars with their tires out there running, which is hopefully going to keep them sponsoring the events.

01badz28
08-29-2011, 05:52 PM
Well, those of us running R comps / sub 200tw tires could always start a little winner takes all pool - just to make it interesting. :smoke:

vintageracer
08-30-2011, 03:50 AM
The level of participation any event draws is a direct reflection of the location of the event AND the promoter who is running the event. This is true of any business activity and hobby activity for that matter. The best event in the world held in the middle of nowhere will have little participation. A promoter who is not well liked, over priced at their events or you pick the reason will also have little participation in his or her events. That's just real world reality!

These comments are not directed at any of the current event promoters just a statement of fact. People will attend and support well liked promoters of properly planned, properly organized, well priced and well located events. The "rules" are a part of the well organized event like em or not. Apparently the "rules" are not that big a deal since many of you still support and participate in these events without the ability to "win" prizes as your ride does not meet the eligibility requirements.

We are fortunate that there are promoters that will RISK their hard earned capital by investing in putting on the events across the country. They all realize that if there is no profit they will no longer put on events. If it was easy everyone would do it! The promoters have a HUGE audience they must please at every event and the participants are but just one of those audiences. The others are the insurance company, the track management, the promoters wives, their sponsors (this is the big one since this is who really makes these events possible), the host hotel management and more. There is a TON of work in all these events BEFORE any of us show up at the track.

Each of has our own opinion of how an event "SHOULD" be run yet we are not the individual or group of people promoting the event just the arm chair quarterbacks. All it takes is money and time for anyone of you to get into the event promotion business if you think you know what the rules should be and how an event should be operated!

Derek69SS
08-30-2011, 07:19 AM
Constructive ideas respectfully shared are beneficial to the future of any event.

That is my intent here. I'm not asking Bill to change the rules just for me, I'm making a suggestion that would allow more people to compete, give competitors a few more options in their selection of tires (and open up some more options in tire and wheel sizes), and allow us to make better-informed tire choices by using information from people who have done the back-to-back testing of various tires.

And to Bill, regardless of what you decide, I respect your decision, thank you for any consideration on the topic, and most of all THANK YOU for providing us a place to play. :worship: I truly enjoyed the experience at RTTH 6, and hope to participate again when my car is made whole again. :twothumbs

vintageracer
08-30-2011, 11:04 AM
Constructive ideas respectfully shared are beneficial to the future of any event.


Agreed!

We now have 4 pages in this thread arguing about or should I say discussing tires and treadwear numbers which seems over the top to me when the Grand PooBah has already laid down the law!

I'd say everyone has been MORE than constructive!

LeadSSled
08-30-2011, 12:10 PM
:angel:
Agreed!

We now have 4 pages in this thread arguing about or should I say discussing tires and treadwear numbers which seems over the top to me when the Grand PooBah has already laid down the law!

I'd say everyone has been MORE than constructive!
What can I say? We're overachievers. :)


You could look at the rules this way.

Don't like em don't come to the event.

Find another sandbox to play in!!!
You could look at it this way.

Don't like the thread, don't participate in the discussion.

Find another thread to play in!

Just sayin' :poke:

We're just talking here. Bill has everything under control and he knows what he's doing. But I know that Bill appreciates a civil and passionate discussion as well as anyone, and I sincerely doubt that he finds the conversation in this thread offensive. It is simply an exchange of ideas.

Jim Nilsen
08-30-2011, 02:56 PM
What's not to like about Bill Howell, He is as American as Apple pie !!!!!

Oh yea,You just can't seperate Bill and the thought of "Apple Pie " and anyone who knows, knows what I mean !!!!

Long live Bill Howell !!!!!

JEFFTATE
08-30-2011, 05:17 PM
The fastest cars at our events ( consistantly ) are the Detroit Speed test cars and Brian Finch .
They are using BF Goodrich g-Force KDW's , which are 300 UTQG .

LeadSSled
08-31-2011, 02:33 AM
The fastest cars at our events ( consistantly ) are the Detroit Speed test cars and Brian Finch .
They are using BF Goodrich g-Force KDW's , which are 300 UTQG .
Point well taken. But I bet they are not running on 275/40-17's. :)

Our point is that we wouldn't be running 275/40-17's either if wider 17" tires were available in this 200+ treadwear range . BFG only makes the KDW in 20" sizes, so the "fastest tire in our event" isn't an option to those of us with 17" rims. A 17" KDW does not exist and the largest 17" KDW2 is a 275/40-17. You have to go down to a 180 treadwear to open up 285 and 295 widths in 17" diameters.

Not an argument... just a statement. Of course we could go out and buy a set of $2500+ 19" or 20" wheels to open up more tire widths too. But I'm just not interested in doing that. I know; that is our choice. :nopity: Like I said earlier, we will play by the rules and enjoy the event regardless. But you have helped to reinforce the point folks have made in this thread.

wmhjr
08-31-2011, 05:01 AM
Point well taken. But I bet they are not running on 275/40-17's. :)

Our point is that we wouldn't be running 275/40-17's either if wider 17" tires were available in this 200+ treadwear range .

Be careful - I'm not part of your "we". It doesn't matter if 335s were available for me. 275s are all that will fit. In the back. Therein we get back to the arms race.

The point in this thread is that you will never ever be able to satisfy all the "inequities". By making one thing OK to even the field for one person, you then make it a less even playing field for somebody else. Therefore, 200tw is simple.

Jim Nilsen
08-31-2011, 09:34 AM
I'm seeing the error of my ways with 180tw tires and so did BFG so I am trying to wear them out as fast as I can, Really I am. If I had only had 18" wheels "I could have been a contender"

I'm blaming it all on Mary Pozzi for recommending Kumhos as a really good tire !!!!! Sorry Mary but somebody has to have the finger pointed at them, one at you three at at me is how it works right,LOL. just kidding.

A note on how the time sheets read at the Heid't muscle car challenge, my times are listed as "exibition"

In the reality of it all, there is such a vast difference bewteen so many of our cars that even the tw rule couldn't change the results for some of us. as bill just pointed out.Even if we put a $ 50,000 over/under build class it still wouldn't help but it would sure split up into some interesting groups.

I look forward to the events and may they keep on running in spite of it all.