just found this site...have suspension problems that has everyone stumped

[camarobigblock]

Hey guys..I have a problem. I have a 1969 camaro with unisteer rack and pinion, hiedts upper and lower control arms, hotshiss lowering springs, poly bushing on the sway bar and poly drop links. My problem is we set the alignment and take a drive, the front wheels go positive camber and tires squeal really bad and becomes undrivable!! We have removed spring and changed spring rates and still nothing. checked for binding suspension...still not result. I am thinking its either in the rack or the sway bar since both front tires fo postive camber at the same rate.....
Any ideas?? has anyone experienced this or can shead some insite on this? I have just about every front end shop puzzled over this problem!!! I am running out of patients with this!!
Thanks for any info you have!!

[robertjra]

it sounds like bad toe angle if you could put up some more info like what all the digresees are and if you fliped the upper control arm shaft around to get more or less camber this could help with the toe also check all the ball joints and see if every thing is tight. hope this helps

[camarobigblock]

the toe is set to almost 0 maybe slightly negative. The camber is a little negative at -1. I am not sure the specs are at work. But the alignment comes in to spec with ease. As soon as we drive it it apears to go positive camber and the suspension sits up noticeble higher! I have found is we reverse the car sometimes it settles back down. I am stumped

[killer69]

are you using the narrower control arms?
the unisteer rack works well the rack can not make the camber change. what do you mean by it goes positive camber. it shouldn't be possible for the camber to change unless the ride height changes. or something is moving arround
what is your static alignment set at we recomend -3/4 deg camber 4-5 pos caster and 1/16-1/8 toe in for street cars

[camarobigblock]

Killer69...yes the ride height does change noticable like its not setting back down! we are close to your specs when the car is on the alignment rack...

[camarobigblock]

We do not have narrowed arms

[robertjra]

i think you have some loose parts that is the only thing that can change ride hight like i told you check every thing jack the car up under the control arm and check the balljoints bushings and the spring perch

[camarobigblock]

baljoint and bushings are tight. If we lift the car its fine. suspension travel is ok. I am asumming since both wheels go postive camber at the same rate and the cars ride height changes about 2 inches that something like the sway bar is binding.....If somethig was loose or ball joint problem someone would have found it by now since we have taken the suspension apart probabaly 6 times already and have torqued every bolt on the front end

[fbody_mike]

There is alot of really smart people on this site. As the old addage(sp?) goes, a picture is worth a thousand words. Take lots of pics and post them up here. The more pictures the better the odds of getting someone to discover what is causing this weird problem.

[exwestracer]

The camber change is likely a result of the ride height change. You need to find out when the car is lifting itself during the drive. Cornering? Braking? Straight line steady speed :scared:?

IF I were a betting man, I'd say it has something to do with anti-dive angle, but you'd have to have a lot of "stiction" in your components to keep the nose weight from pulling it back down...

[derekf]

If'n you're thinking that the sway bar is the culprit, why not test that by temporarily removing one of the end links and taking a short test drive?

[MrQuick]

can you list the components used, which steering arm pn and the actual alignment readings please. Stock spindle? Lubed bushings?
im with Ray here, im thinking the same, arm component mismatch or funky ackerman issue.

where are you?

vince

[camarobigblock]

The steering arm is not used its a steering rack from unisteer. I assume they are stock spindles, they were on the car when i got it a few years ago. The alighment specs are -1 camber, 1/8 negative toe and 6 degree caster. Nothing is shifting, I am sure of that. I have a feeling that its either the rack binding or the swaybar. when it stops raining I will take the sway bar links off and see what happens.
Like I said the car is about 2 inches higher after the drive and pulls the toe and camber way out...goes real far positive camber, rear far negative toe. bushing have been re-greased and checked for binding without the spring in place. I may have to take a bunch of pictures of what its doing

[formula]

How long does this take when driving? Instantaneous? Are you running adjustable shocks? Did you lock all of the suspension down at ride height with the car's weight on the tires?

[camarobigblock]

Happens with in a mile or less. We have changed shocks and springs with the same result. shocks are not adjustable. I am sure it is not the springs or bushings. all have been lubricated, torque checked on the ground!

[dontlifttoshift]

Before and after pictures would be helpful. How do you get the car back down to ride height?

[camarobigblock]

hahaha actually if i drive backward i have found it will return to normal height. Its raining here so I will take pictures before and after when I get back to messing with it.

[SLO_Z28]

Did you torque the control arm bushings with the weight of the vehicle on the components?

If you didn't it sounds like you might have pre-loaded the poly bushings. Loosen the nuts completely(and I mean looose, like leave a noticeable gap in the nut) and drive the car around the block then tighten the control arms again. I would try this after unbolting a sway bar link, as thats more likely. Poly bushings are terrible in control arms, they will cause binding issues.

[exwestracer]

hahaha actually if i drive backward i have found it will return to normal height. Its raining here so I will take pictures before and after when I get back to messing with it.

If that is the case, and it's not braking sensitive, you definitely have a bumpsteer problem. Sounds like tie-rod angle is way off. You mentioned that the shocks are non-adjustable, but do you have any idea of the valving? If youre sure that there is no component binding, the shock valving is the only thing that will keep the weight of the car from settling the suspension back to ride height. That in combination with very short, very stiff springs; most likely.

[MrQuick]

We'd love to see a picture of the back of the spindle and rack location.

[mpozzi]

Sounds like toe is not being set correctly. Verify your equipment. I've heard of this before with too much toe in was set. Don't over tighten the bar end links with poly bushings. This is David Pozzi on mary's iPhone.

[MrQuick]

Sounds like toe is not being set correctly. Verify your equipment. I've heard of this before with too much toe in was set. Don't over tighten the bar end links with poly bushings. This is David Pozzi on mary's iPhone.

I thought so...Mary would have said he wasn't driving fast enough. LOL

[camarobigblock]

The alignment equipment is set correctly. thats not the issue. I messed with it a bit last night, no pictures taken yet. I removed the sway bar, lifted the car and drove it..all over the road again...removed the tie rods...same thing...lift the car and set it down, it sits high until jounced. we completely removed the suspension again and in the process of re-lubricating the bushings, will re-torque everything and then re-set alignment.
We did the same thing to a 71 chevelle and it sets right down.....pick the car up, set it down and settles right down to ride height. I am thinking since the upper arms have no grease fittings it may be binding up. Not sure, I also know that the lower spring seat is tight around the spring, but sits all the way down...maybe its time to scrap these arms!!

[exwestracer]

We had this same sort of issue with a Corvette rear here at the school. Turns out the sleeves inside the control arm bushings were not long enough, and the brackets would pinch the bushings when tightened up. I'm assuming you're using lock nuts on all mounting bolts? If so, tighten everything until the nuts just touch the washers...no more...and drive it again. If the problem goes away, you are binding the control arm bushings when tightening the bolts down.

[exwestracer]

Just had another thought...again I assume this would have been noticed, but did you have to use a drift pin (or...hammer :hammer:) to get the lower arm bolts in? Those holes weren't always perfectly aligned at the factory, and switching form rubber bushings to something more solid can cause problems.

Back when I built dirt modifieds, I used to have a LONG drill bit that I would use to align all 4 holes, then I would insert a long piece of all thread with washers on it and weld the washers onto the mounts over the enlarged holes. Not very scientific, but it got everything aligned...

[MrQuick]

tighten bolts under load....loosen all arm bolts bounce and let settle then torque down...don't over torque.

Try loosening the control arm bolts and driving it. See what it does.

I've seen sleeves that are too short and we have just put in longer ones but as long as they are not over torqued and lubed they should work. You lube the inner sleeve to the busing, and not the outside of the bushing sleeve.

[camarobigblock]

we did loosen all the control arm bolts, took it for a quick drive..was all over the road like something was out of adjustment. Brought is back tightened everything on the ground...still nothing. Everything was torqued to spec and greased up. I have no idea what is causing this. i dont know if there is a control arm issue or what. I am begining to hate this suspension!!

[exwestracer]

we did loosen all the control arm bolts, took it for a quick drive..was all over the road like something was out of adjustment. Brought is back tightened everything on the ground...still nothing. Everything was torqued to spec and greased up. I have no idea what is causing this. i dont know if there is a control arm issue or what. I am begining to hate this suspension!!

There is no reason the control arms themselves should be causing your issue. Bushing bind, yes.
Your comment about the car being all over the road with the bolts loosened up makes me think you are having to compress the brackets too far on the lowers. The uppers so not need to be loose as long as they are running a cross shaft. Your upper mount plates are not bent are they? This would couse the cross shaft to bend putting the uppers in a bind, but that STILL should not hold the weight of the front end up. With the bolts loose on the lowers, will the suspension move normally sitting in the shop?

[ibuildm]

It sounds like a serious toe-in problem to me. Check the toe-in when the car is in the raised postion and I bet you will see that the toe-in has increased greatly. I think there is a problem with the rack.
Tim

[David Pozzi]

Do you have the right steering arms on there? Do they look like this?
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/04/1st_gen_spindle-1.jpg

[John Wright]

The wacky steering issues have to be from the front end rising and getting the geometry all of of shape....gotta figure out what the heck is causing the front end to get taller as you drive and fall back in place to ride height when you back up...something isn't right there.

[nc69rs]

I had the very same problem, mine turned out to be the lower A-arm bushings. My car had the red poly bushings and just looking at them installed they looked fine, but once I removed the a-arms the bushings were egg shaped inside allowing alot of movement. I spent alot of time chasing this, so check them out.

[camarobigblock]

David Pozz : Yes the spindles and steering look like that. They are mounted toward the rear, the rack bolts to the rear of the subframe.


nc69rs : What lower arms did you have? did you have a steering rack on the car? did you just get new bushings? tell me more!!! thanks guys I will be messing around a bit more this weekend. we will see whats going on. I hope to get this resolved soon!!

[nc69rs]

I have stock lower a-arms, and stock steering configuration. I had just changed wheels, went from some 15x4" skinnies to 17x8" and it started driving terrible. I took the advice of David Pozzi and installed new 600 lbs front springs because I had 225lb moroso trick drag race springs on it. While changing I noticed that the A-arm had alot of movement and removed one to get a better look at the bushings and they were wallowed out. My camber would go positive while going forward and revert back to normal just by backing down the driveway just like you described. I put new bushing in and what huge difference.

[camarobigblock]

OK!!!! I have a question...We removed the lower arms from the car AGAIN. I noticed the arms are tight going in the frame. Its almost as the arm is to narrow! Anyone installing the lower arms they should just slide in smoothly right>>> Hmmm

[SLO_Z28]

Yes they should go in fairly easy. Since you have the arms out take out the poly bushings, they're terrible, they are substantially worse than new rubber bushings. Do yourself a favor and get some global west Del-A-Lum's or some similar acetal or solid bushing if you can afford it, or a OEM rubber bushing if you cant.

[robertjra]

i just did a mock up on my frame with the hotchkis lower arms and i had to beat the frame around a little and fix the bolt holes whare the arm slides in cus over the years every thing got bent in this can caus your prob if you didnt fix it. my arms would bind and not swing the full travle. hope this hellps i can put up some pics if you would like

[camarobigblock]

SLO_Z28: I would say the arms are tight enough to need a hammer to install into the lower frame. I am going to shave down the mounts first and see if this fixes my issues before spending any more money on the suspension. I have narrowed the problems down to the arms......I think....everything else is disconnected

[David Pozzi]

I've had to hammer in the arms on several cars and not had your issue.
I've seen the wrong shocks installed, shocks with too large a body and too tall, like putting second gen shocks on a 1st gen. The shock body can contact the hole in the subframe and stick up or down but it wouldn't go up and down by simply reversing direction.

[camarobigblock]

I have 2 sets of springs and a set of coilovers...I am positive its not the springs or shocks. I am working on making the arms fit real nice and smooth on the frame. then we will see what happens. If this doesnt work......sell the entire front suspension and rack and go with detroit speed

[robertjra]

if its a power rack ill buy it

[Wicked]

Need pics, tie rod angles, lower arm angles, etc, before and after drive.
If you experience the problem then do the reverse driving to get it back to proper ride height, is the toe correct and where you set it?

Are all the bushings in good shape? Worn bushing would cause you toe to change during driving, the toe-in could cause the car to stand up under braking and maybe not set down until reversing.

The other thing, did this start when you installed the arms or is this a new issue without any changes to the car?

[camarobigblock]

OK>>>I think we figured it out..... We found the the lower control arms are tight in the frame on both sides. we removed the control arms and bushings. we shaved about 1/8 inch off the inside of each bushing, refit the control arms. Lubricated all the bushings again. We took it out for a drive and finally does not change the ride height. drove 100% better. Now re-align and set ride height. I also need a new front sway bar. I hope this is the end of the front suspension problems! thanks for the help and advise!!!!