Where do 4 pt Harness Bolt to

[John510]

Where do you bolt down a 4 pt harness? Is it to the stock seat belt floor bolts? What about the shoulder straps?

Sorry for the dumb question just need to ask before its wrong and I kill myself in an accident

[Twentyover]

It won't kill you, it will crush your spine and paralyze you for life.

My take on this,and I have a conservative viewpoint, is this-

Unless you are running a roll hoop, run a 3 point hitch. It is designed to bend you in half at the waist on impact, keeping you in place, and loading your body weight through your pelvis.

If you feel the need to run a 4 point, the only one I believe is should be used absent a hoop is a Schroth model specifically for street use.

Lap belts should be secured to the floor at the production belt locatoions, the shoulder harness should be mounted 6 inches apart from each other on a bar about 4-5" behinnd the front seat at an downward angle between 0 and 30 degrees below the shoulders.

Most 4 points will restain you so that if the roof collapses (due to no hoop),your head gets squashed kind of like a melon. In the event you have a heavy fronta limpact, the absence of a sub strap permits the lap belts to stretch, permitting you to slide out of position, so your jelly filled center takes the load.

[John510]

If I have no bar then what do I bolt the shoulder straps to? The floor?

[Rod]

If I have no bar then what do I bolt the shoulder straps to? The floor?

NO! mounting the shoulder belts to the floor can compress you're vertebrae in a crash. The angle of pull is all wrong. Shoulder belts should be mounted even with the shoulders to a maximum of 4" below the shoulders, to a roll bar!, I have even seen a fool bolt the harness to the seat back itself?? Having the belts anchored to the seat is not legal, and really not safe, no roll bar no MULTI point harness, I have seen them mounted way back to the package tray area, very inconvenient, I also don't think that's safe either

[John510]

This harness idea is not sounding that great anymore. I was assuming I could just bolt the harness onto my racing seats. I thought it would be a cheap seat belt idea since I have no seat belts but I thought wrong. Doh!

[John Wright]

check out some 3 point belts...morris and schroth are a couple that comes quickly to mind

[NOT A TA]

After showing up at my first HPDE with only lap belts and having an instructor refuse to get in my car I needed an alternative until I got a full cage and 6 points . These were high quality harnesses and functioned fine for my purpose. I did not crash test them! LOL I sold them to another member here when I moved up to the Kirkeys and 6 point Schroths. Spend some time researching belts/harnesses and be honest with yourself about what you are really going to do wth the car. While race type stuff looks cool it becomes restrictive and a pain to use during regular driving. http://www.schrothracing.com/store/Tuning/rallye/rallye-4

[John510]

After showing up at my first HPDE with only lap belts and having an instructor refuse to get in my car I needed an alternative until I got a full cage and 6 points . These were high quality harnesses and functioned fine for my purpose. I did not crash test them! LOL I sold them to another member here when I moved up to the Kirkeys and 6 point Schroths. Spend some time researching belts/harnesses and be honest with yourself about what you are really going to do wth the car. While race type stuff looks cool it becomes restrictive and a pain to use during regular driving. http://www.schrothracing.com/store/Tuning/rallye/rallye-4

Where did you bolt the shoulder straps to? The rear seat bolts on the floor? The harness doesnt look long enough for that.

[Twentyover]

Where did you bolt the shoulder straps to? The rear seat bolts on the floor? The harness doesnt look long enough for that.

At the bottom of the listed URL there is a button called "Rallye 3 & 4 Instructions (1.5 MB)". It's a hot link to, oddly enough , the instructions for mounting, including Schroths recommended locations. As for me and my house, Iwill only use a factory style 3 point or a harness bar

[JohnUlaszek]

I recently did a rather extensive write up on this (http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/miscellaneous/1009gmhtp_sparco_seats_s_w_rollbar_install/index.html), with Joe Marko at HMS Motorsports (http://www.hmsmotorsports.com/) consulting on the story. Joe is Schroth's rep for pretty much all US motorsports. If you are going to drive on the street without a helmet, I would suggest my approach is a reasonable for a car that will also see track time, but ultimately you will have to decide with what level of safety vs. convenience you are willing to "live" with.

I would also be very cautious when it comes to OEM lap belt locations. If you have aftermarket seats, belts, or an older car you will need to carefully inspect the condition of the mount and the resultant belt angles.

Finally, a reputable belt manufacturer's installation instructions should be your starting point and I would be wary of any advice you receive on the internet -- most of the guys who really know their stuff have given up on trying to float the truth in a sea of bull.

[MrQuick]

John, is this for the 68 we are painting at Thoms? We can sit down and talk about doing a removable harness bar.


Vince

[Rod]

I recently did a rather extensive write up on this (http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/miscellaneous/1009gmhtp_sparco_seats_s_w_rollbar_install/index.html), with Joe Marko at HMS Motorsports (http://www.hmsmotorsports.com/) consulting on the story. Joe is Schroth's rep for pretty much all US motorsports. If you are going to drive on the street without a helmet, I would suggest my approach is a reasonable for a car that will also see track time, but ultimately you will have to decide with what level of safety vs. convenience you are willing to "live" with.

I would also be very cautious when it comes to OEM lap belt locations. If you have aftermarket seats, belts, or an older car you will need to carefully inspect the condition of the mount and the resultant belt angles.

Finally, a reputable belt manufacturer's installation instructions should be your starting point and I would be wary of any advice you receive on the internet -- most of the guys who really know their stuff have given up on trying to float the truth in a sea of bull.

Good write up john

[John510]

John, is this for the 68 we are painting at Thoms? We can sit down and talk about doing a removable harness bar.


Vince

Yeah . I was only thinking about the harness belts because I found some racing seats for a lot cheaper then it would be to reupholster my 2 camaro seats. That and the harness belts are a lot cheaper then original camaro seat belts.

[MrQuick]

its all a wash when you consider the bar material and fab. got your steering box too. vince

[sr73bu]

I used RJS "buggy" style belts: the lap belt bolts to where the factory belts were and the shoulder straps meet up at a "Y", route through the headrest,and bolt to where the factory rear center seat belts bolted. Everything is held in place with grade 8 hardware, nylock nuts and I took advantage of the large mounting/re-inforcing plate the factory had for the rear seatbelts to distribute force, so the bolt doesn't rip through the floor... I know, I know, its not ideal, but i'm not running a cage on the street. The angle of the belts combined with the seat angle isn't anywhere near as bad of the angle bolting them to the floor.... (see attached pic)
As I side note I do believe my car has a re-inforced roof (totally different from 1972 and earlier) that was mandated for safety in 1973... "The most extensive redesign in its 10-year history marked the 1973 Chevelle, and with it marked the end of hardtops as we knew them. The newly-named "Colonnade Hardtop" featured a semi-fastback roofline, frameless door glass and fixed, styled "B" pillars, structurally strong enough to contribute to occupent safety of a roll-over type accident. GM had anticipated Federal roll-over safety standards that ironically didn't materialize" - Wikipedia

Before everyone beats me up on this... IMO, it safer than running just a lapbelt and eating my dash for lunch... To be honest i'll probably see if Morris has a factory style 3-point i can install in the near future... just leave my harness in place for autocross...

-Sean

[DynoDon]

NO! mounting the shoulder belts to the floor can compress you're vertebrae in a crash. The angle of pull is all wrong. Shoulder belts should be mounted even with the shoulders to a maximum of 4" below the shoulders, to a roll bar!, I have even seen a fool bolt the harness to the seat back itself?? Having the belts anchored to the seat is not legal, and really not safe, no roll bar no MULTI point harness, I have seen them mounted way back to the package tray area, very inconvenient, I also don't think that's safe either
Good points made, but I know that we used to allow rear package shelf mounting in SCCA when I was a Tech inspector. The angle is good, but it is a long strap that can be tough to keep tight. It also ruins back seat usage


I used RJS "buggy" style belts: the lap belt bolts to where the factory belts were and the shoulder straps meet up at a "Y", route through the headrest,and bolt to where the factory rear center seat belts bolted. Everything is held in place with grade 8 hardware, nylock nuts and I took advantage of the large mounting/re-inforcing plate the factory had for the rear seatbelts to distribute force, so the bolt doesn't rip through the floor... I know, I know, its not ideal, but i'm not running a cage on the street. The angle of the belts combined with the seat angle isn't anywhere near as bad of the angle bolting them to the floor.... (see attached pic)

Before everyone beats me up on this... IMO, it safer than running just a lapbelt and eating my dash for lunch... To be honest i'll probably see if Morris has a factory style 3-point i can install in the near future... just leave my harness in place for autocross...

-Sean

Sorry, but that angle is still unsafe and will compress your spine. I think, given the choice, I'd rather smack a dash board then be paralyzed. I would not Pass those through tech as an SCCA tech inspector.

[sr73bu]

I understand these are not optimal, but what else are you supposed to do...I dont think you can compare that angle to bolting it to the floor... thats just plain crazy... these threads always suck because of the fine line that is Pro-Touring... the mix of racing and comfort and style and performance....

SO do I buy a Schroth harness that bolts in the same exact place, with the same exact angle to the back seat, with the same shoulder/lap belt... just because it has the Schroth name? Not sure how that will save my spine? Sure they have a DOT approved label, but what is the difference? material, probably not.. or is it the fact that RJS, Simpson, etc.. never attempted to get a DOT label... these are things none of us can answer...

Would you pass the Schroth set-up and why?

I'm not trying to be a wise ass, and I do value safety, but im not going 145 mph at road america, just a few 35-50mph autocrosses (for now)... If i do road race I would probably get a cage... But what is the safest balance between race and street?? thats the question that is always the problem...


-Sean

[DynoDon]

I understand these are not optimal, but what else are you supposed to do...I dont think you can compare that angle to bolting it to the floor... thats just plain crazy... these threads always suck because of the fine line that is Pro-Touring... the mix of racing and comfort and style and performance....

SO do I buy a Schroth harness that bolts in the same exact place, with the same exact angle to the back seat, with the same shoulder/lap belt... just because it has the Schroth name? Not sure how that will save my spine? Sure they have a DOT approved label, but what is the difference? material, probably not.. or is it the fact that RJS, Simpson, etc.. never attempted to get a DOT label... these are things none of us can answer...

Would you pass the Schroth set-up and why?

I'm not trying to be a wise ass, and I do value safety, but im not going 145 mph at road america, just a few 35-50mph autocrosses (for now)... If i do road race I would probably get a cage... But what is the safest balance between race and street?? thats the question that is always the problem...


-Sean

I don't care what brand they were I would not pass a shoulder harness mounted in that manner. 4 point harnesses are not legal at all, a minimum of 5 point. The angle of the shoulder harness from over the shoulder should ideally be approximately 90 degree to the spine but regardless of that they should be at NO MORE than 20 degrees downward from horizontal. Now all this is for Club level and higher racing, not auto cross. For auto cross in a closed car, a lap belt only is legal, as are factory three points. 3 and 4 point harnesses that are mounted as stated above are also legal.
I think that Schroth does recommend some of their belts to be mounted similar to what you show, but with a disclaimer that the seat is structure to handle the seat belt load. I personally still think it is not a good idea. I have no issue with the Schroth belts (or similar style) with any of their other mounting methods, just not the down to the floor at a large angle.
I don't care if you are racing it or driving on the street. In fact you are more likely to hit something head-on on the street than on the average Autocross course and with your style mounting, there is a good chance of spine compression injury

[sr73bu]

I don't care what brand they were I would not pass a shoulder harness mounted in that manner. 4 point harnesses are not legal at all, a minimum of 5 point. The angle of the shoulder harness from over the shoulder should ideally be approximately 90 degree to the spine but regardless of that they should be at NO MORE than 20 degrees downward from horizontal. Now all this is for Club level and higher racing, not auto cross. For auto cross in a closed car, a lap belt only is legal, as are factory three points. 3 and 4 point harnesses that are mounted as stated above are also legal.
I think that Schroth does recommend some of their belts to be mounted similar to what you show, but with a disclaimer that the seat is structure to handle the seat belt load. I personally still think it is not a good idea. I have no issue with the Schroth belts (or similar style) with any of their other mounting methods, just not the down to the floor at a large angle.
I don't care if you are racing it or driving on the street. In fact you are more likely to hit something head-on on the street than on the average Autocross course and with your style mounting, there is a good chance of spine compression injury

Thanks Don, Like I said I wasn't trying to question you... you obviously have more knowledge on this subject than most people... This is a very touchy thread (along with previous ones on this topic)... I guess there is really no safe solution.. other than all out 5-6 point belts with a cage or factory style 3-points... I guess there is no happy medium when it comes to safety.

-Sean

[NOT A TA]

I understand these are not optimal, but what else are you supposed to do...I dont think you can compare that angle to bolting it to the floor... thats just plain crazy... these threads always suck because of the fine line that is Pro-Touring... the mix of racing and comfort and style and performance....

SO do I buy a Schroth harness that bolts in the same exact place, with the same exact angle to the back seat, with the same shoulder/lap belt... just because it has the Schroth name? Not sure how that will save my spine? Sure they have a DOT approved label, but what is the difference? material, probably not.. or is it the fact that RJS, Simpson, etc.. never attempted to get a DOT label... these are things none of us can answer...

Would you pass the Schroth set-up and why?

I'm not trying to be a wise ass, and I do value safety, but im not going 145 mph at road america, just a few 35-50mph autocrosses (for now)... If i do road race I would probably get a cage... But what is the safest balance between race and street?? thats the question that is always the problem...


-Sean

Other than a specially designed human safety capsule that can accelerate, decelerate, and turn, safety equipment becomes a compromise. Intended use, budget, current technology, sanctioning body tech requirements, appearance, and probably some other things all come into play when the subject of safety equipment is discussed. In the end it becomes the individual owners CHOICE of what equipment they wish to install (or not) depending on the activities they will use the car for and the level of risk they are willing to take both during events and on the street. This is where the "balance" between race and street comes in and it's different for each individual.

I look forward to reading each of these safety threads because it gets us all talking and learning more about safety and doing something about it. I fear the day will come where one of us has a bad wreck or fire at an event with no safety equipment to speak of and is killed or seriously injured. Several of the members contributing to this thread (and others like it) have witnessed horrible incidents on tracks I'm sure. Seeing a car back in the pits after a violent crash or a fire reinforces the need to use the proper safety equipment for the activity being performed.

In some cases we have to agree to disagree about what is or isn't acceptable to each of us. Like I said earlier, I showed up for my first track day years ago with just lap belts. Now while I was willing to take that risk, the instructor assigned to me was not. I did not get mad at him or make a scene because it was his CHOICE not to go to that level of risk. Another instructor jumped at the chance to ride with me and I assured him I would not be pushing the car or myself by driving like the cops were chasing me. I just wanted to learn the procedures, track etiquitte, and "the line" without going out in a blaze of stupidity.

Hopefully we can continue these discussions without flame wars and agree to disagree occasionally while holding great respect for each other. The last thing we need is someone who can share the wealth of their knowledge and experience getting upset and not contributing to these safety threads. It's very hard to get the tech people at sanctioning bodys to commit to a "yes, that will pass tech" nevermind trying to get recommendations from people who aren't actively involved. There's a huge grey area and most of our cars fall into that area. Ideally a track car and a street car are 2 different cars but for many of us it's a compromise. Very few people want to be the guy who says "do this" in case that doesn't work for someone. In the end it comes down to what the owner is willing to do based on the compromises made and the level of risk they are willing to take.

As a side note there's currently 5,553 suspension threads, 3,815 wheels threads, 2,994 paint threads, and only 545 threads in safety AND general tech. Heck there's more threads in the junkyard! That shows there's a real lack of concern to me which has me worried for peoples safety as more and more cars are being used for driving events. Hopefully there will be more awareness before someone becomes the Dale Earnhardt of our group.

The shoulder straps of the Schroth 4 point ASM harnesses ARE different than the RJS buggy harnesses. They are designed to stretch and turn your body during an impact to prevent submarining and spinal compression. There's vids on you tube if you search Schroth. I've had a couple sets of 5 point RJS Harnesses over the years and am not brand biased either way about either company. I just want stuff that will fill my needs, wants, and desires within the compromises I'm willing to make.

To my knowledge the Schroth 4 point ASM harnesses are not allowed in any of the sanctioning bodies for the "racing" classes however for non-competition HPDEs etc. they're accepted. I went to several N.A.S.A. weekends at road tracks and never had a problem in tech for HPDE. Land speed racing at Maxton up to 135 MPH they were accepted and most NHRA dragstrips had no problem at my speed then(high 13's). At one dragstrip I was allowed to run but told to change to a harness bar mount before returning. Maybe Don will chime back in about SCCA.

I now run a full cage and 6 point harnesses with Kirkeys. Here's the way the 4 point Schroths were in my car. The big zip tie around the headrest support was just to be sure the harness couldn't slip off the side of the seat and contact the hot sidepipes when the door was opened.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/09/The14Carinterior001-1.jpg

[sr73bu]

Thanks for the info John...

I do have a real concern about safety... believe me, I'm not one to be cocky when it comes to safety either... I have looked into Schroth 4 point ASM harnesses and i like what they have to say.. but i'm not convinced that a "Schroth 4 point ASM universal harness" does the same thing that a "Schroth 4 point ASM harness designed specifically for a 2004-2010 Impreza" will do. They didn't test the angles, anchor points, floor pan thickness or what have you for my 1973 chevelle or a 1970 firebird or whatever... niether did RJS... I'm not saying my harness is better, i'm just stating that NONE of us know what will work and what won't...there are way too many factors that come into effect when safety is involved... Like I said, we do know that factory stuff works (newer stuff) and all out cage/harnesses work, but even then, installer error can play a part... haha this is why no one posts here... its an all out battle (J/K) and i'm not even trying to defend my harness, haha, i'd be lying if i ever felt safe driving in NJ (especially the parkway).. lapbelt or full cage... LOL

John and Don.. its guys like you that i seek knowledge from and if you recommend the Schroth 4 point set-up... i will probably get them... You do understand where I'm coming from?? I really dont know what would happen to me in a accident, I just assumed what i've got, is safer than just a lap belt...

-Sean

[NOT A TA]

Sean: Your assesment of the universal ASM harnesses is about what I thought when checking them out initially. So I spent an hour on the phone with HMS where the Schroth harnesses are sold for the USA market. After discussing my use, vehicle, angles, attachment points, etc. for my application I figured although the rear harness anchoring points might not be "optimal" like their custom fit applications I would be waaay better off in an accident than continuing to use the 35 Y/O lap belts I had or taking on the compression possibilities of other harnesses I was looking at similar to your buggy harnesses. There was nothing "ideal" for my application so my compromise was the Schroths. I knew I would be getting a bar or a cage and just needed something to tide me over. If I was only going to drive on the street I probably would have gone with something like the Morris 3 point retractable.

I'm not sure what you have is safer than a lap belt. I think Don, Greg, and I would all agree that there is probably a higer risk of spinal column injury with your current Buggy harness setup than a 2 point, 3 point and probably the 4 point ASM harnesses also because of the stretch designed into the product. That risk might be reduced or exaggerated depending on what type of seat you are using, personal height etc. A solid back non-hinged "racing" seat? Reclinable "sport" seat? Are your shoulders above any holes that might be in the seats that the harnesses go through? What angle are the harnesses at?

I know exactly where you're coming from. I was in your shoes before I decided I would be spending enough time over 100 MPH to justify the expense of installing a rollbar or full cage etc. knowing that installing either brings it's own set of risks and compromises. So during that interum period I used the Schroths. I had both the stock lap belts and the Schroths installed at the same time for a while. I'd use the stock lap belts on the street and the Schroths at track events . Then I started researching degradation of materials used in belts and harnesses and started questioning the logic of using 35 year old belts at all when really good racing harnesses are "out of date" in a couple years, so I took the original stockers out.

As far as strength of the attachment points. The stock lap belt mounts in the front and rear were factory designed for each pair to hold one person so dividing that stress onto 4 points for one person I would think would be more than enough for highway speeds and under because in effect you're reducing the load any one point was designed to take.

It would be nice if we could get some "experts" in here for issues like this, rollbars, cages etc but I think there's a hesitance to post because once things get into the area between stock and full race there's a lot of middle ground with so many variables like you mentioned. It would be hard even for an "expert" on a particular topic to give advice without looking at the variables affecting a particular application closely.

[The WidowMaker]

what we need is somebody to design a seat that is meant to take the load. if the belt holes are above your shoulders and meant to take the load, there would be no issue running them to the floor. but, i dont see anyone making an reclining seat with this feature and assuming the liability with any seat design.

im in the same boat; i wont put my kids in the back seat with just a harness bar, i wont run a cage without a helmet, and i would like something more than 3pts for the street. ive thought about running dual harnesses like stated above; harness bar with 5 pts for the races and morris 3pts for the street. i figure i can make the morris clip in and out some how.

im hoping somebody comes up with some options in this thread http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=28920

also, the roadster shop came up with something for their chevelle convertible. im pretty sure they took the correct measures. does anyone know for sure? http://image.superchevy.com/f/32208075+w750+st0/sucp_1003_26+1970_chevy_chevelle_roadster+custom_i nterior.jpg

[JohnUlaszek]

It looks gorgeous -- but without a headrest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headrest), it could be deadly.

Also, they are relying on the seat to vehicle interface to carry the entire load as well as the locking mechanism in the seat back. Lack of headrest aside, I am curious what loads this seat and interface was designed to. Does it meet FVMSS? I have seen enough sled tests of prototype seat designs and it's surprising what fails. Also, at least in the photos, it looks like the spacing between the shoulder belts is a bit wide -- could be the perspective though.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/10/sucp_1003_261970_chevy_chevelle_roadster-1.jpg[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headrest"]

[The WidowMaker]

i agree with the headrest. i also agree that there are some serious forces involved. i recently saw the upper portion of a rear seat tear all of tack welds and end up in the front seat. it wasnt torn off from being hit, it was torn off due to the sudden deceleration of the vehicle it was part of (she rear ended someone that was stopped while she was doing about 45).

i hope RS did their homework. i have a lot of respect for their builds, and im hoping they may have a solution.


Does it meet FVMSS?

what in the aftermarket does? im actually asking, but im pretty sure its almost nothing. my current favorite is the rigid ididit/flaming river columns that are being sold to replace the factory collapsible columns. but thats a whole other thread.

[alowerlevel]

what in the aftermarket does? im actually asking, but im pretty sure its almost nothing.

The Schroth harnesses meet FVMSS specs and are NHTSA approved. http://www.schrothracing.com/store/Tuning/rallye/rallye-4

[sr73bu]

what we need is somebody to design a seat that is meant to take the load. if the belt holes are above your shoulders and meant to take the load, there would be no issue running them to the floor. but, i dont see anyone making an reclining seat with this feature and assuming the liability with any seat design.

im in the same boat; i wont put my kids in the back seat with just a harness bar, i wont run a cage without a helmet, and i would like something more than 3pts for the street. ive thought about running dual harnesses like stated above; harness bar with 5 pts for the races and morris 3pts for the street. i figure i can make the morris clip in and out some how.

im hoping somebody comes up with some options in this thread http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=28920

also, the roadster shop came up with something for their chevelle convertible. im pretty sure they took the correct measures. does anyone know for sure? http://image.superchevy.com/f/32208075+w750+st0/sucp_1003_26+1970_chevy_chevelle_roadster+custom_i nterior.jpg

I'm trying to achieve the same thing... my son is 2 right now but in a few years I want him to ride along with me (street)... I thought about a harness bar, but then theres a bar right in his face... I thought about a removable bar... bar in his face problem solved, but now I have nothing but a lap belt... Now a seat that had integrated harnesses at the proper position, that could handle the load under impact... thats a great idea!... I may do what you were thinking .... running a 3-point and have a hidden away harness for autocross..

[Twentyover]

The Schroth harnesses meet FVMSS specs and are NHTSA approved. http://www.schrothracing.com/store/Tuning/rallye/rallye-4

You need to be careful with DOT requirements. Shroth did not identify what DOT standards it complies with- maybe the one about colorfastness of the seatbelt fabric dye, or corrosion resistance of the hardware? OK, I don't really think that Schroth is yanking our chain like that, BUT I've seen $10 seat belts comply with SOME DOT specifications.

Deal is, restraints are a system. A belt isn't a system, it's a piece of a system, a good belt can kill you if it's installed incorrectly. Reading the letter from NHTSA linked to in the link you referenced, there are aspects of FMVSS 208 that NHTSA specifically noted were non-compliant. FMVSS 209 talks mostly about belt construction, and all belts sold as seat belts must comply with (even the $10 deals). I don't think it's possible for a 4 or 5point to compoly with the letter of 208, but i do think the Rally 4 is probably the best of the aftermarket until one puts a hoop in the car.

[NOT A TA]

I don't know if any of you guys with the occasional need/desire for a rollbar/harness bar for certain types of events have considered it, but there are bolt in rollbars that can add rollover protection and provide correct harness mount points. Like anything there's compromises to consider but it might be an option for some. I have one in my Carrera and I can install or remove it alone in under an hour. When the bars not in the car you can't tell there was one in there unless you go crawling underneath to find the mounting positions. You'd be surprised how many vehicles they're available for.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/10/PorscheboltinRollBar006-1.jpg

[The WidowMaker]

im thinking of these for a removable bar.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[alowerlevel]

They look interesting, not as expensive as I thought they would be either. http://www.ballisticfabrication.com/ID-Tube-Clamp_p_1467.html