Latest Insurance thread who are you using?

[rogue]

I need agreed Value on 3 cars. Currently using Condon/Skelly but they were bought out by Metlife and now I'm not happy with the mega company's handling of a claim.

Who do you guys use.

I was paying around $800 for 3 cars....

Grundy already denied me on the grounds that I take the camaro to the track.

[camcojb]

Grundy had no problem with me at the track, but like pretty much everyone else they don't cover you on the track. You can buy special riders or policies for that, but none of the regular agreed value companies cover racing or track days that I am aware of.

Jody

[moreHP]

I am using State Farm on my cutlass. They have a collector car insurance program and you set the value. The downside is your limited to how many miles you can drive a year (I think it 3000, but I would have to look it up) I dont drive it that much so its not an issue for me.

I had to make a claim and they were fantastic. They far exceeded my expectations on the claim. Very helpful on setting up the time to see the car, instant payment once they saw it. Overall, I was really happy with them.

I dont know what they would say about running a track day though.

[Matt@BOS]

Hagerty. They did eventually start to cooperate with me on my claim, and paid out. I wish the process had been quicker for me, but can't complain too much in the end. Knowing that they would handle everything in regard to my claim right away, rather than sending me to deal with the at fault driver's insurance first was worth every penny of the policy. It made things simpler. From what I understand, Hagerty is usually good about getting a check out in about two weeks from the time of an accident. Apparently my case was an uncommon occurrence.

Matt

[vintageracer]

Haggerty and Heacock were BOTH a PIA concerning our claims last January when the tent fell on our cars at the Russo & Steele Auction. Poor communication by the companies and payouts offered that would not repair the cars to before loss condition. It would have been MUCH easier if the cars were both totalled. One car was 2 months out of a COMPLETE nut and bolt restoration with all receipts, pictures and documentation. The second car was also complete with restoration receipts, pictures and documentation concerning restoration, quality of part, labor and materials. Both companies wanted to patchwork paint both cars and bondo severely dented panels rather than replace.

State Farm was SUPERB this May 2010 when paying the total Flood loss on my race car from the Great Nashville Flood.

[John Wright]

Haggerty and Heacock were BOTH a PIA concerning our claims last January when the tent fell on our cars at the Russo & Steele Auction.

State Farm was SUPERB this May 2010 when paying the total Flood loss on my race car from the Great Nashville Flood.<makes mental note to keep all vehicles away from vintageracer>

You better go outside and check to see if your lightening rods are in good working order...sounds like natural disasters follow you around...LOL...j/k....

[mpozzi]

Grundy already denied me on the grounds that I take the camaro to the track.

You should be covered while AT the track, just not while ON the track, per se ...

Also, the internet really helps with claims as almost everything we do is talked about or photographed ad nauseum. Things like track days, autocrosses, cruises, even "for sale" ads, are fair game for us when we investigate a claim. And you'd be surprised what we sometimes find out.

As for me ... I'm very up front concerning my activities with my Camaro and with filing a claim (hope I never have to ...). My carrier knows this and I know that I assume ALL risk during track days and autocross events during the sessions or runs.

Cheers,
Mary Pozzi

[vintageracer]

<makes mental note to keep all vehicles away from vintageracer>

You better go outside and check to see if your lightening rods are in good working order...sounds like natural disasters follow you around...LOL...j/k....


Direct Insurance was also a PIA when THEIR insured HIT and damaged 4 of my cars at the Spring Rod Run 2010 in April in Pigeon Forge and then DROVE OFF. The PF police caught him and he was charged with leaving the scene of an accident and filing a false Police report. The dumbschit parked his car 2 blocks away and called the PF Police saying HE was the victim of a hit & run.

Direct finally paid off on the last of the 4 cars which was totalled in September. That's 5 months later before they finally agreed to the fair market value that was easily established.

I guess I should be careful. The years not over yet!!!

Insurance is a WONDERFUL thing!

[bochnak]

I was paying 400/yr for liability only through American Family. I just switched this week to Grundy, 170/yr, 10k agreed value, full coverage.

[teamplex65]

I found this thread after having a meeting with my State Farm agent. She mentioned that they have a collector car section, but it is not advertised very heavily. I currently have Haggerty agreed value of 45k and it runs $502 a year. She quickly pulled up one of her clients that had just totalled his car and it was valued at 50k and he was paying $175 per year. She cut the check yesterday as it was deemed totalled. Does anyone else have any experience with State Farm and their collector car coverage?

She did say that I would have to get it appraised. Haggerty just needs photos. I think Haggerty could care less what kind of car you have and its just a calculation of how much you want to insure and what your past driving record is. The pictures seem to be just for proof that it "might" be worth what you say. State Farm needs an actual appraisal and she said a local guy around here charges $200.

[vintageracer]

State Farm offers "stated value" policies for older cars and collector cars that are not primary transporation vehicles. Stated Value (SV) is a policy were the value of the vehicle is stated in the policy which helps determine a premium of the policy and a general value of the car. SV does not necessarily mean State Farm will pay the stated value amount of the policy if there is a loss. Could be less AND/OR could be more! All this depends upon the value of the asset on the date of loss. These policies are a method to allow the insured and the insuror to make sure that a policy with adequate coverage is in place along with payment of a premium that supports the "stated value" listed in the policy.

A good example would be a little later model car than most PT cars such as a 1988 Saleen Mustang. These cars already have collector car value over a plain 88 Mustang. Let's say I insure the car as a plain Mustang and have a loss. I should expect to paid the Blue Book value of a plain 88 Mustang which is not much. With a SV policy the insuror and I both know the car has a value above and beyond the Blue Book value of a regular 88 Mustang. Since the car is not primary transporation the premium is still cheaper than a regular premium however a "stated value" of the vehicle has been established before the policy takes effect.

Is a State Farm "Stated Value" policy any good? YES!

My 1969 Datsun 510 Vintage Race Car was insured under a State Farm "Stated Value" policy with a stated value of $25K. The car was flooded in the Great 2010 May Flood here in Nashville. My policy was only for Comprehensive (Act of God coverage) and collision coverage. No liability since the car is not street legal. State Farm sent out a KNOWLEDGEABLE appraiser to look at my car and handle my claim. The appraiser actually had a knowledge of vintage race cars and determined by car was a total loss. State Farm quickly paid the full "Stated Amount" listed in the policy as the appraiser also quickly determined that the "Stated Value" listed in the policy was also the MARKET VALUE of the car on the date of the loss. The car ultimately went to Copart for disposal at auction at which point I bought the car back at the Copart auction and the car is once again sitting in my basement garage getting ready for the 2011 racing season.

Once again State Farm performed FLAWLESSLY in their handling of my claim and the State Value State Farm policy worked as it was intended.

Good Job State Farm Insurance!

[vintageracer]

Most "Collector Car" policies are "Agreed Value" policies. You and the insuror agree on a value. Many of these polices are also very restrictive. Many do not like modified cars such as a PT car, track use or autocross use.

All the Collector Car insurors are good. If you don't believe it just ask them! Ask enough people and you will find problems with ALL OF THEM! Pick your insuror based upon the policy they write NOT what friend and relatives tell you. READ THE POLICY BEFORE YOU BUY! Make sure the coverage and limitations are what you expect, understand and most importantly agree with. All the policies offered by all the collector car insurors are DIFFERENT in some way. Whether it limits mileage, if the car must be stored in a locked and alarmed garage, when and where you can drive the car and the level to which your car is modified. THIS should be your MAIN CONCERN when shopping for coverage! If you have a loss event on your car that is outside the specifics of the policy they will not pay. Example: Your involved in an accident in morning rush hour traffic on the I5 corridor driving your collector car on a sunny day to work. You policy says you cannot drive the car to work. Don't bitch and complain when the insuror denies the claim. What other reason would you have to be driving on the I5 corridor in morning rush hour traffic headed in the direction from your home to your place of employment other than you are driving your collector car to work!!!! Another example would be driving your car at an Open Track event or Autocross when the policy specifically exempts this type of activity. There are collector car policies that specifically prohibit this type of car use so make sure your policy is NOT one of them if you use your car in those activities. Again, READ THE POLICY and make sure you can live with the POLICY RESTRICTIONS. That's why collector car policies are CHEAP! The insuror wants to limit their exposure and they do that by the limitations in the policy.

There really is a LOT more to shopping for collector car insurance than just asking your friends and other hobbyists where they buy their insurance since everyone's car and insurance needs are different. Again READ THE POLICY BEFORE YOUR BUY THE COVERAGE to make sure it fits your needs. Hagerty is not for everybody. Neither is Grundy, ACI, State Farm and all the other insurors. Price should be the last consideration when buying insurance. PROPER COVERAGE for your needs should be paramount not just the price of the policy!

[Nothingface5384]

I have state farm for my truck and have the maverick and skylark with hagerty

[SicMonte]

Does State Farm and Hagerty ask if you have a "roll cage" or not? I have been trying to get agreed value insurance on my monte carlo through a certain insurance company...and they wont cover me b/c I have a "roll cage" in the car. The car has historic tags and is eligable for the insurance but the "roll cage" kills it. I have the car under my regular policy and it is only covered like a regular car..so if it gets totaled I would get a check for the blue book value, and that won't even cover my rear wheels.

[trapin]

Good information Mike.

It's like all things...you choose what you need based on what your needs are. For instance with my car, I know I'm not going to race it competitively so all I'm really worried about is theft and damage under normal driving conditions. For this I wanted an Agreed Value policy and I went through Hagerty to get it. If I was going to race the car than I might look at other options. Right now that is not a concern.

Make informed decisions.

[vintageracer]

Does State Farm and Hagerty ask if you have a "roll cage" or not? I have been trying to get agreed value insurance on my monte carlo through a certain insurance company...and they wont cover me b/c I have a "roll cage" in the car. The car has historic tags and is eligable for the insurance but the "roll cage" kills it. I have the car under my regular policy and it is only covered like a regular car..so if it gets totaled I would get a check for the blue book value, and that won't even cover my rear wheels.

All I can tell you is ask!

My 510 Vintage Race car was insured with State Farm on the Stated Value policy. The car certainly has a roll cage, fire system, fuel cell, no interior and everything you expect of a dedicated race car. My car WAS NOT insured with liability insurance since the car was not street legal nor was it registered for the street. My car was covered only with Comprehensive and Collision insurance. The underwriter at State Farm had no problem accepting my car for coverage under the State Value policy. I am a longtime State Farm customer and probably more important was the VERY LIMITED liability (exposure) State Farm would have insuring this car. Their exposure loss was limited to Act of God loss (Flood, Storm or theft) and Collision damage (car falls of the trailer or in an accident while being towed on the trailer). That's the only liability to which State Farm was exposed.

I am sure a State Farm underwriter along with all the other insurance carriers underwriter would ask the same question. Why do you have or need a rollcage in a street car? Imagine the answers to that question that must run through the mind of an insurance underwriter when trying to decide whether to accept the coverage! No wonder you got turned down for coverage. I would tell you if they ask tell the truth. If they do not ask do not say anything. Their out to not paying a loss claim would be IF they ask for a list of modifications you have done to the car and you do not list the roll cage. I suggest you apply to all of them and fill out their applications for coverage COMPLETELY answering all the questions on the application truthfully and in full. Provide the pictures requested and/or an appraisal if needed. REMEMBER, some stated value policies from some carriers will REQUIRE a yearly re-appraisal of the vehicle. Don't forget to do that if required. That's your responsibility not the insuror's. Again, read the policy!

When I insured my car with State Farm I told them it was a dedicated race and provided detailed pictures of the car inside and out. IF the car has actually been street legal (licensed) I have no doubt coverage would have been denied. Once again it's all a matter of exposure of loss for the insurance company.

[SicMonte]

Thank for the reply Mike! Let me ask you this though...what do all the street cars on this site do about insurance with a roll cage? I know numerous members here have cars with cages in them that are street cars but see the track at times too? They have to have some sort of liability insurance don't they?

[sr73bu]

Thank for the reply Mike! Let me ask you this though...what do all the street cars on this site do about insurance with a roll cage? I know numerous members here have cars with cages in them that are street cars but see the track at times too? They have to have some sort of liability insurance don't they?

Hey Doug... I can tell you this i just signed up with Grundy, the process was very simple: e-mailed a few pics, signed paper work, done in 2 days. They didn't ask anything about a cage and with all insurances I understood that i'm not covered as soon as i set foot on a race track to "race". I'm covered at the track, just not when "racing"... at that moment I must assume all responibilty, and pray nothing happens... look into Grundy, i've also heard many good things about them...

cheap too.. i'm covered for $20,000 at around $315 a year...

[wmhjr]

State Farm offers "stated value" policies for older cars and collector cars that are not primary transporation vehicles. Stated Value (SV) is a policy were the value of the vehicle is stated in the policy which helps determine a premium of the policy and a general value of the car. SV does not necessarily mean State Farm will pay the stated value amount of the policy if there is a loss. Could be less AND/OR could be more! All this depends upon the value of the asset on the date of loss. These policies are a method to allow the insured and the insuror to make sure that a policy with adequate coverage is in place along with payment of a premium that supports the "stated value" listed in the policy.

A good example would be a little later model car than most PT cars such as a 1988 Saleen Mustang. These cars already have collector car value over a plain 88 Mustang. Let's say I insure the car as a plain Mustang and have a loss. I should expect to paid the Blue Book value of a plain 88 Mustang which is not much. With a SV policy the insuror and I both know the car has a value above and beyond the Blue Book value of a regular 88 Mustang. Since the car is not primary transporation the premium is still cheaper than a regular premium however a "stated value" of the vehicle has been established before the policy takes effect.

Is a State Farm "Stated Value" policy any good? YES!

My 1969 Datsun 510 Vintage Race Car was insured under a State Farm "Stated Value" policy with a stated value of $25K. The car was flooded in the Great 2010 May Flood here in Nashville. My policy was only for Comprehensive (Act of God coverage) and collision coverage. No liability since the car is not street legal. State Farm sent out a KNOWLEDGEABLE appraiser to look at my car and handle my claim. The appraiser actually had a knowledge of vintage race cars and determined by car was a total loss. State Farm quickly paid the full "Stated Amount" listed in the policy as the appraiser also quickly determined that the "Stated Value" listed in the policy was also the MARKET VALUE of the car on the date of the loss. The car ultimately went to Copart for disposal at auction at which point I bought the car back at the Copart auction and the car is once again sitting in my basement garage getting ready for the 2011 racing season.

Once again State Farm performed FLAWLESSLY in their handling of my claim and the State Value State Farm policy worked as it was intended.

Good Job State Farm Insurance!

Stated value policies are often fine in the event of damage. They are also often a nightmare in the event of a theft. Because there is nothing left to evaluate actual value, you are at the total mercy of the insurance company with no legal recourse at that point. For that reason, I would never, ever consider a stated value policy for a valuable collector vehicle. As we all know, thefts are more and more common. I'm actually far more concerned about theft than of damage myself. In your case, since the vehicle was available to inspect, the appraiser could also see the likely initial condition of the vehicle as well. So, you had the best possible circumstances to "test" your insurance company. If somebody has a street legal vehicle that they use to get to events, or other than at a track where theft is far more likely, stated value has very obvious negative issues with it.

Every policy and company can have issues, and every one can also have success stories. Just ask your insurance company exactly what happens, step by step, in the event of a non-recovered theft. At any point if there is a question about the payout, move on. In the case of stated value, there will always be a question. State Farm was under no legal obligation to pay out the "stated value".

[vintageracer]

Thank for the reply Mike! Let me ask you this though...what do all the street cars on this site do about insurance with a roll cage? I know numerous members here have cars with cages in them that are street cars but see the track at times too? They have to have some sort of liability insurance don't they?

Sure they have some sort of liability insurance on the car if the car is licensed and used on the street since most all states now have a liability insurance law. I have no clue what owners of these cars are telling their insurance company concerning a roll cage in their car or track use with their car. I would guess that a lot of this information not discussed with the insuror since the car owner is already having a Hell of a hard time finding coverage OR they are not willing to pay the premium cost when the insuror knows the real use of the vehicle. The other alternative is that insuror accepts the risk and writes the policy.

Once again that all depends on the individual insurance company and their requirements. I would wager to say that the track time issue and a roll cage is never discussed by the owner when obtaining insurance quotes. It's up to the OWNER of the car to agree to the terms and limitations within the policy. When YOU buy the policy and YOU have agreed to the insuror's terms and conditions whatever they may be. Again, READ THE POLICY!

Wreck your car on a track and you find that nobody will cover that loss since the car was on a track or in a competition. Maybe you can tow the car off the property and dump it in a ravine off the side of the road and say that's where you wrecked the car. That's insurance fraud however that stunt has been tried more than once! Many times the policy exclusions would include an autocross like Goodguys or RTTH. Some specifically exclude an autocross or track event in their policy limitations. Again, READ THE POLICY! Just because you do not have a claim during an autocross when your policy specifically excludes this activity does not mean it's OK. If you agree to No autocross, go ahead and use your car in an autocross, the information becomes public knowledge, you wreck your car in a road driving accident, your agent/adjuster finds out about you and your cars past autocross participation while under the insurors coverage the insuror CAN AND WILL deny coverage for the road accident since your in violation of the terms and conditions prior to the accident. All the insurance in the world is not worth CRAP if they will not pay as agreed per the terms of the policy. It IS two way street. You have to follow the terms of the policy just as the insuror must follow the terms of the policy. THIS is why shopping for and purchasing the proper coverage for your car is SO IMPORTANT!!!

[vintageracer]

Stated value policies are often fine in the event of damage. They are also often a nightmare in the event of a theft. Because there is nothing left to evaluate actual value, you are at the total mercy of the insurance company with no legal recourse at that point. For that reason, I would never, ever consider a stated value policy for a valuable collector vehicle. As we all know, thefts are more and more common. I'm actually far more concerned about theft than of damage myself. In your case, since the vehicle was available to inspect, the appraiser could also see the likely initial condition of the vehicle as well. So, you had the best possible circumstances to "test" your insurance company. If somebody has a street legal vehicle that they use to get to events, or other than at a track where theft is far more likely, stated value has very obvious negative issues with it.

Every policy and company can have issues, and every one can also have success stories. Just ask your insurance company exactly what happens, step by step, in the event of a non-recovered theft. At any point if there is a question about the payout, move on. In the case of stated value, there will always be a question. State Farm was under no legal obligation to pay out the "stated value".

Not necesarily!

Many stated value policies REQUIRE a yearly updated appraisal of the car. This requirment is incumbant on the car owner to complete not the insurance company. If you do not complete the yearly or whatever time frame updates to the appraisal as outlined in the policy you the policy owner have violated the terms of the policy. These appraisal updates will define the value of the car especially when theft is involved since the car is not available for inspection by the adjuster as you noted. I you the car owner does NOT update the appraisal as required then YES the insurance company can an probably will have their way with you. Again READ THE POLICY to understand your requirements as the purchaser of the policy and the insuror's responsibility to you the purchaser.

Stated value policies are not a bad product at all and may fit the needs of many collector car owners. Many times Stated Value policies are more liberal with the use of the car and the number of miles that can be driven.

You are correct in your statement that "State Farm was under no legal obligation to pay out the Stated Value of the policy" and your assertion that theft is a much greater area of loss than flood or other types of Act Of God damage in the collector car world is true. State Farm WAS OBLIGATED AND ARE OBLIGATED to pay the MARKET VALUE of the asset on the date and time of the loss as outlined in the policy. That market value in the case of my 510 was equal to the "Stated Value" of the policy as demonstrated by the updated appraisals provided by me as required by the terms of the policy and by the market research of the claims adjuster. You are right! State Farm may have paid LESS OR they may have had to pay MORE than the "Stated Value" listed in the policy! Again the market value on the date of loss determines the asset value when you have a Stated Value policy. The market can and does change throughout the year. That's why the required yearly appraisal updates I have to submit are SO IMPORTANT!!!

[SicMonte]

great...........guess I need to call around.

[teamplex65]

Great responses Mike. I now have a few more questions to ask the Insurance Agent. Thank You.

Steve

[wmhjr]

Mike,
I get your points but just don't agree with the logic. In a stated value policy, regardless of any previous or annual appraisal, they are simply not bound to any specific dollar amount. The term "market value" is the problem. It always changes, and is subject to the discretion of the carrier. I am simply not comfortable in giving that discretion away for no good reason. While not necessarily rock solid, "agreed value" provides far more security for the insured. You see, the carrier can easily argue that your car is with less following the annual appraisal. With agreed value, they cannot. Moreover, with agreed value, you the owner have control over the value, and it is your responsibility to keep up with the market.

You are correct in that stated value policies may be more liberal in use, but that is simply because they can afford to be. If you need that liberal set of allowances, stated value may be easier for you to find. However, I can't see any other possible advantage for it. And way too critical of a downside.

I like certainty. There is without any question far less with stated value and it's too much risk for me considering the lack of any resulting advantage for the typical collector. Your case is a bit unique to start with since your vehicle is not street legal to begin with.

[wmhjr]

Btw, here's another analogy that hits close to home. If you bought a home just before the bubble burst and got a mortgage, you had an appraised value for that home that within weeks in many locations was drastically reduced. To apply collector car insurance terms to it, if the home burned down "stated value" insurance would pay up to the "new or lower" value regardless of any previous appraisal. Agreed value would pay the dollar amount initially agreed on. I'm not saying that's how homeowners actually works, but just illustrating a point.

[vintageracer]

EXACTLY!!!

The value of the asset on the date of the loss!

[vintageracer]

Mike,
I get your points but just don't agree with the logic. In a stated value policy, regardless of any previous or annual appraisal, they are simply not bound to any specific dollar amount. The term "market value" is the problem. It always changes, and is subject to the discretion of the carrier. I am simply not comfortable in giving that discretion away for no good reason. While not necessarily rock solid, "agreed value" provides far more security for the insured. You see, the carrier can easily argue that your car is with less following the annual appraisal. With agreed value, they cannot. Moreover, with agreed value, you the owner have control over the value, and it is your responsibility to keep up with the market.

You are correct in that stated value policies may be more liberal in use, but that is simply because they can afford to be. If you need that liberal set of allowances, stated value may be easier for you to find. However, I can't see any other possible advantage for it. And way too critical of a downside.

I like certainty. There is without any question far less with stated value and it's too much risk for me considering the lack of any resulting advantage for the typical collector. Your case is a bit unique to start with since your vehicle is not street legal to begin with.

Once again that is YOUR level of comfort that you choose when buying insurance and you only like Agreed Coverage insurance policies for your collector cars. That's why there is regualar car insurance, Stated Value car insurance and Agreed Value car insurance. Different policies for different buyer's and different coverages.

All I am suggesting with any type of policy is that the buyer READ THE POLICY, UNDERSTAND THE TERMS AND LIMITATIONS OF THE POLICY & BUY COVERAGE TO MEET THEIR NEEDS.

Most people buy insurance with doing ANY OF THE ABOVE. They just ask their friends and relatives from whom they purchase insurance.

If I have made just one PT member pull out their insurance policy and READ THE POLICY we have both successfully illustrated our points and opinions!

[wmhjr]

EXACTLY!!!

The value of the asset on the date of the loss!

But Mike, the problem is that THEY always have discretion to set that value. That is exactly the problem. Why in the world would you allow them to have that discretion? It is completely in their interest to minimize that market assessment. They can compare your previously appraised but no longer available vehicle to all the other "similar" ones which may well be of lesser quality and/or condition. Legally you have almost no recourse. I just can't see any advantage of doing that unless you have no other choice whatsoever. What would that reason be?

[wmhjr]

Once again that is YOUR level of comfort that you choose when buying insurance and only like Agreed Coverage. That's why there is regualar car insurance, Stated Value car insurance and Agreed Value car insurance. Different policies for different buyer's and different coverages.

All I am suggesting with any type of policy is that the buyer READ THE POLICY, UNDERSTAND THE TERMS AND LIMITATIONS & BUY COVERAGE TO MEET THEIR NEEDS.

Most people buy insurance with doing ANY OF THE ABOVE. If I have made just one PT member pull out their insurance policy and READ THE POLICY we have both illustrated out points and opinions!

totally agree with that. I just happen to believe that the only reason there are stated value policies is to allow the conventional players to advertise that they play in the collector market. Jmho.

[Tony_SS]

I can't image giving an insurance company the flexibility of a 'stated' (market) value. The true value is what a buyer will pay, and there's no way to determine that in the event of a claim. Appraisals are bogus too. Why not just appraise the car yourself based on what its worth to you or what you have in it?

Agreed value is the only way IMO.

[vintageracer]

I can't image giving an insurance company the flexibility of a 'stated' (market) value. .

IF you own and insure ANY type of regular late model car/truck with your regular agent you are doing EXACTLY THAT!!! Giving the insurance company "flexibility" (your choice of terms) in establishing a value of the asset.

So what's the difference if it's a collector car or regular daily driver car? The fact that you are passionately involved with the collector car and not the daily driver? The money you have in the collector car? Just the idea that collector cars are "supposed" to hold their value or go up in value?

In both cases a market value can be established for an asset on the day of loss. There are LOT'S of industry accepted standards to establish a value and that is what they must pay. By industry accepted I mean the insurance industry, used car industry AND the collector car hobby/industry.

What about all the people upside down in their late model driver who wreck/total the car and the car is worth LESS than they owe? Is that the insurance companies fault? I have to buy another car. How am I going to pay for it if I still owe on the other car I wrecked?

The loss of a late model driver car in which the insured is upside down happens everyday and is FAR more life changing than the loss of a collector car. The differences between newer car policies and collector car policies are not that different. Fortunately with a collector car policy you can have the option of Agreed Value coverage if that is important to you. You don't have that option with later model car insurance but yet you still buy that type of policy anyway for your later model vehicles!

WHY would you buy regular car insurance on your daily driver cars/trucks if Agreed Coverage is so important to you in other areas of insurance coverage such as collector cars? Seems like a flip/flop to me?

[wmhjr]

Mike, the answer is actually very simple.

Because the insurance policies are available. Collector insurance is a specialty market for a variety of reasons that we don't need to rehash. The fact that the cars are NOT used for daily trans, that they are statistically taken far better care of, the fact that they are involved in less (by percentage) losses. Those very "restrictions" that the carriers place on us is what allows them to treat them differently than our daily drivers. There is typically nothing very proprietary about our DDs. Other than minor things like maybe wheels or audio, they are often exactly as driven off the showroom floor - so it's nothing other than mileage and condition that makes them at all "unique". Nobody, and I mean nobody of any sense, buys a DD as an investment or with any hope that they will even hold their value, much less appreciate.

You seem to think that we're ripping off the carriers by using agreed value. Not so. They make plenty of money. If they didn't, then that would not be their operating model. Remember, it's those "true collector insurance carriers" that themselves promote the advantages of "agreed value". They, like us, understand that it really isn't effective to determine a "market value" of a potentially unique and/or proprietary vehicle on the date of loss, especially if the vehicle is no longer available. How would you feel if you owned a Ridler winning vehicle and that happened? Exactly how do you "market value" a vehicle like that and protect your investment - remembering that insurance is for exactly that. Protecting your investment. There is simply no reason to leave that amount of risk on the table when there are very reasonable alternatives IMHO.

The point is that many here as well as elsewhere pour not only tons of money, but even more importantly tons of time and effort in building from the ground up a very special vehicle. Good insurance companies recognize that we often treat them far better than the norm, that we (hopefully) drive them more safely, are less likely to leave them parked in the lot of a major shopping mall where theft is frequent, and that as such we are a far lower risk. They reward us with the ability to decide up front what the "agreed value" of our cars are, and then pay a fair premium BASED ON THE AMOUNT INSURED, AND ON CERTAIN RESTRICTIONS. Like total mileage, not using it as a daily driver, having to own a true DD and separate insurance policy, having to be of a certain age, etc. These restrictions allow them to create a "risk pool" that statistically provides us a very reasonable rate, and them a profit. It is unreasonable to expect the same thing for a daily driver.

I'm not in the business of supporting insurance companies, and I feel relatively certain that they have a profitable operating model in offering such insurance. It is all legal, ethical and above board. We often still insure them for far far less than our actual investments not even including time. I'm a true capitalist at heart. The customer and the business need to both have their needs met, and I see (for cars like ours) that the agreed value polices are beneficial to all of us.

So the question is why, knowing this, should somebody take a chance on stated value? I'm just trying to understand the logic behind it. BTW, I'm not beating you up at all. I truly appreciate the dialogue. I'm just trying to understand why - other than just because. Exactly what is it about a stated value policy that makes it worth consideration if an agreed value policy is available at a similar cost? Keeping in mind that the only companies that offer such stated value collector policies are admittedly not even remotely in the collector business - it's just an aside from their "core" business, such as life, property, casualty, etc.

[vintageracer]

I don't look at purchasing Stated Value (SV) insurance as taking a chance. That's the difference in our arguments. I look at a SV policy as buying the proper insurance coverage for the vehicle in question. I have numerous Agreed Value (AV) policies also. I have the SV policies on several collector cars because the AV policy will not properly cover the vehicle based upon my use/needs for that vehicle. The AV polices I have are on cars that fit the requirements of the policy. The point being is that I am properly insured on all the vehicles based upon use/need. I like to drive my cars and use any number of them on a daily basis for fun and errands. Several do not fall into that category and therefore the AV policy is just fine for those rides.

The collector car AV business is HUGELY profitable. Why do you think premiums are so low? Because the payout for loss, cost of advertising, cost to administer the policy and the needed PROFIT on the policy is a LOT less than their paid loss's every year. Basically the collector car insuror's enjoy a highly profitable loss to premium ratio. That's why AV policies have been cheap for years and getting cheaper as time goes on!

If you really look at who really underwrites the policies for the Collector Car insurance carriers you will find that Hagarety does not underwrite the policy. That's laid off through Chubb, Lloyds or any other large specialty insurance companies. That's the way the business runs. Those large companies that underwrite that Hagarety policy are much more familiar with specialty coverages since that's their business model. Sure, State Farm and all the other regular line companies could do the same but that's not their business model. That really is good for us car guys since the specialty collector car insurance business is such a small part of the overall auto insurance industry. If it did not work this way you could bet your butt that premiums would be MUCH higher for AV collector car policies!

[Tony_SS]

IF you own and insure ANY type of regular late model car/truck with your regular agent you are doing EXACTLY THAT!!! Giving the insurance company "flexibility" (your choice of terms) in establishing a value of the asset.

So what's the difference if it's a collector car or regular daily driver car? The fact that you are passionately involved with the collector car and not the daily driver? The money you have in the collector car? Just the idea that collector cars are "supposed" to hold their value or go up in value?

In both cases a market value can be established for an asset on the day of loss. There are LOT'S of industry accepted standards to establish a value and that is what they must pay. By industry accepted I mean the insurance industry, used car industry AND the collector car hobby/industry.

What about all the people upside down in their late model driver who wreck/total the car and the car is worth LESS than they owe? Is that the insurance companies fault? I have to buy another car. How am I going to pay for it if I still owe on the other car I wrecked?

The loss of a late model driver car in which the insured is upside down happens everyday and is FAR more life changing than the loss of a collector car. The differences between newer car policies and collector car policies are not that different. Fortunately with a collector car policy you can have the option of Agreed Value coverage if that is important to you. You don't have that option with later model car insurance but yet you still buy that type of policy anyway for your later model vehicles!

WHY would you buy regular car insurance on your daily driver cars/trucks if Agreed Coverage is so important to you in other areas of insurance coverage such as collector cars? Seems like a flip/flop to me?


It's apples to oranges really. The market value of a late model vehicle can be determined easily and accurately, so a stated market value (which is backed up with a good volume of data points) can easily attained. And gap insurance is good CYA insurance based on those market values.

The cars we build and drive are essentially art on wheels, that we like to use, abuse and put at risk! And they tend to have intrinsic value based on rarity, modifications and sentimental value, all of which is purely objective and variable. Thus an agreed value is better suited since the a 'market' value on such an item can vary wildly.

[vintageracer]

It's apples to oranges really. The market value of a late model vehicle can be determined easily and accurately, so a stated market value (which is backed up with a good volume of data points) can easily attained. And gap insurance is good insurance on your insurance!

The cars we build and drive are essentially art on wheels, that we like to use, abuse and put at risk! And they tend to have intrinsic value based on rarity, modifications and sentimental value, all of which is purely objective and variable. Thus an agreed value is better suited since the a 'market' value on such an item can vary wildly.

I agree the market value on an item can vary depending upon many factors including condition, location and more. Sentimental value has $0.00 value in the insurance business. Yet contrary to your assertion there are accepted industry standards that can also determine the market value of your collector car on the date of loss.

I in NO way have said that Agreed Value insurance is not a good thing to have. All I have stated is that you need to have the proper coverage for your needs/uses of the vehicle which may not fit an Agreed Value policy and may fit a Stated Value policy.

Again just make sure the coverage you retain whether Stated Value coverage or Agreed Value coverage is proper for your needs and the use of the vehicle. Nothing More or Nothing Less!

[andrewb70]

I found this thread and there is a ton of good info here. I have a question that someone may know the answer to:

Is there anything preventing an individual from having more than one insurance policy on a vehicle?

I don't know if that even makes sense to do, but it's a question that popped into my head.

Andrew

[vintageracer]

[QUOTE=andrewb70;904057
Is there anything preventing an individual from having more than one insurance policy on a vehicle?
Andrew[/QUOTE]


No!

Having 2 policies does not mean you will get paid twice for the same loss.

In a total you the insured can only provide the title to the car to one insuror so you cannot get paid twice in a total loss.

In the case of a less than total loss one insuror would be primary and the second insuror would be the secondary insuror with the secondary insuror only paying for what the primary insuror did not pay for to make you "whole" prior to the loss.

If you read the terms and conditions of most any insurance policy this questions will be addressed. It is possible that seeking "Full" payment for a loss from both insuror's for the same damage claim may be insurance fraud in many states. Call your state insurance commission for an answer to this question.

[andrewb70]

No!

Having 2 policies does not mean you will get paid twice for the same loss.

In a total you the insured can only provide the title to the car to one insuror so you cannot get paid twice in a total loss.

In the case of a less than total loss one insuror would be primary and the second insuror would be the secondary insuror with the secondary insuror only paying for what the primary insuror did not pay for to make you "whole" prior to the loss.

If you read the terms and conditions of most any insurance policy this questions will be addressed. It is possible that seeking payment from both insuror's for the same claim may be insurance fraud in many states. Call you state insurance commission for an answer to this question.

Thanks Mike!

Andrew

[Steve Chryssos]

The man to call is **** Ferguson over at Hartland Insurance. He will provide competitive collector car insurance AND set you up with weekend on-track Track Day coverage for your pro-touring car. The way it works is that you will pay a premium with deductible for the weekend that covers you against major incident or total loss. For example, if you have a minor "off" such that your car's exhaust is damaged, the repair will likely fall under your deductible. If, however, you run out of talent and crash into a jersey barrier, the major damage or loss is covered. I'm sure my explanation is less than precise, but the message is clear. It's a good idea for enthusiasts who attend track days once or twice per year. I think average coverage runs like $500K per event depending on the value of the car, of course.

That sounds like a lot, but it beats writing off a valuable pro-touring car, Z06 or anything of real value for that matter. And if you frequently track your car, they have race coverage.

http://www.hartlandinsurancegroup.com/motorsport.html

[rosslord]

I am in the process of moving, and I will no longer have a daily driver when I get to my new destination (using public transportation for my main means of getting around). Right now my Elco is insured through Hagerty, but they require me to have a separate daily driver to insure it.

Does anyone know of another agreed value insurance provider that does not have a requirement for another daily driver? I can still accept all the same milage and usage restrictions, but I am not going to own another car.

[howehot]

My current provider dropped my insurance when mt agent contacted them after my Monte was featured in the local paper. I figured this would happen when she read about the autocrossing and Sandhills event. She is looking for other providers. I would rather it happen now than when I had a claim and they said sorry, you have use this in an unapproved manner in the past.

So today I contacted Grundy and they said they would not insure it if the car was used in any time event period, not even for personal use. Hagerty does not have a problem, no coverage when on the track, fully understandable.

[SicMonte]

Everyone who reads this needs to contact Morgan Duffy. He got me my policy and is 1) a member of this board 2) an avid racer 3) owner of a pro-touring camaro 4) an awesome guy.

His name is "Morgan" on here.

Mr. Morgan W. Duffy, CIC, LIA • President
Hayden Wood Insurance Agency, Inc.
HWI Motorsports (Hayden Wood Insurance Motorsports Division)
30 Turnpike Road • Suite 5 • Southborough • Massachusetts • 01772
Ph: (508)229-8700 • Fax: (508)229-8702
[email protected] • [email protected]

[TheJDMan]

Everyone who reads this needs to contact Morgan Duffy. He got me my policy and is 1) a member of this board 2) an avid racer 3) owner of a pro-touring camaro 4) an awesome guy.

His name is "Morgan" on here.

Mr. Morgan W. Duffy, CIC, LIA • President
Hayden Wood Insurance Agency, Inc.
HWI Motorsports (Hayden Wood Insurance Motorsports Division)
30 Turnpike Road • Suite 5 • Southborough • Massachusetts • 01772
Ph: (508)229-8700 • Fax: (508)229-8702
[email protected] • [email protected]

I second this recommendation. Morgan is all of the above and more!

[SPCHIV]

I third this recommendation. I have everything with him.

[Jim Nilsen]

There is one good point to have in all of these insurance threads and that has to do with your Appraisal.

When I got my appraisal for my car I asked the appraiser to make it include the cost to build the car. The appraisal for just the value of the resale or market value just doesn't add up to what you really might have to come up with to get your car repaired in case of an accident that is repairable instead of a total loss. My appraisal ha the market/resale value at $65,000 and that is a fair enough price for me and a year later my insurance upped my policy to $75,000 because they knew from the very beggining that the car is continually getting more added to it that raises the value. The other part of my appraisal is the cost to build the car. Anyone who has ever seen my Cormaro knows the amount of labor involved to build it which goes way byond the cost of parts. The appraiser had to look a whole day to even come up with the market/resale value and when he added up the car as a whole with the labor involved came up with $150,000 to pay someone to build it. Now this in no way means a whole lot when it gets stolen or totally wrecked but it does make a difference when it is just repairable damage for me. Without the appraisal stating the value of the labor it it would be much harder to argue why it is going to cost a lot more to repair for another insurance company when it is someone elses fault if it wasn't in an appraisal.

So pay the extra amount for an appraisal when you get one. It may or may not make a difference if something happens but it sure does make documented proof that someone other than yourself has figured out the fruits of your labor before the facts.

Forgot to say that I use Continental-Western for my insurance and they are good and reasonable along with knowing what I do with my car and still they back me up!!

[icemanrd19]

Everyone who reads this needs to contact Morgan Duffy. He got me my policy and is 1) a member of this board 2) an avid racer 3) owner of a pro-touring camaro 4) an awesome guy.

His name is "Morgan" on here.

Mr. Morgan W. Duffy, CIC, LIA • President
Hayden Wood Insurance Agency, Inc.
HWI Motorsports (Hayden Wood Insurance Motorsports Division)
30 Turnpike Road • Suite 5 • Southborough • Massachusetts • 01772
Ph: (508)229-8700 • Fax: (508)229-8702
[email protected] • [email protected]


Is this still the guy to go with?

[Nothingface5384]

this seems to be the website
http://haydenwood.com/hwimotors/
looks to just be an agent for Hagerty due to the link

[bishir]

My only experience with a claim was after Hurricane Ivan decided to turn right and come to our neighborhood in 2004. I had a 67 Mustang Fastback up on jackstands with a suspension I had recently totally removed from the car. It was totalled, and my State Farm Stated Value policy paid what NADA's classic car value guide said the car was worth.