Swap! LS1 or LS2 ? Help decide....

[xxxturbo6]

Well guy's I am torn between these two simply because of budget but don't know what will be better for my needs. I have been doing a BUNCH of reading and i'm even more confused than ever so i'm turning to you guy's since you have already been down this road and have tested your set ups
's on the Auto-x / Road course...

Here are some of my plans:

I am wanting to stay with an Aluminum block for sure!!

NO turbo or blower, etc.

I would like 500 rwhp at the tires



** I know LS1 & LS2 both come with aluminum blocks
** I know the LS2 is bigger cubes
** I know the LS1 don't have the dreaded oiling issues like the LS2, LS3, and the LS7's..

SO with that said i'm not sure what way to go, LS1's are a bit cheaper to pick up which allows me to put more into the build.. Where as the LS2 has more cubes! As the oil issue goes, I'm not sure I will ever be to the level where that will come into effect.. Not sure though that is why I'm here asking...

Please help me decide...


Thanks,
Scot W.

[Nemesis RR]

Ls3 with a cam and aftermarket oil pan. If you have any type of budget you will run into money issues before oil issues.

[Mkelcy]

With an LS1, you can't use the L92 rectangular port heads; with an LS2 you can. If you're on a budget, the LS2 is a better deal, because you can use the (relatively cheap) L92 heads.

To get comparable performing heads with the smaller bore of the LS1, you need to go aftermarket heads.

[69fbodyproject]

Davenport is selling stroker LS3s through their shop for 7k for a new long block. But thats no electronics or accessories.

[srh3trinity]

The old saying "there is no replacement for displacement" comes into play for me. Also, I think you may think you are saving some money on the front end buying a "cheaper" LS1, but as mentioned above, you will spend a good bit of money on it bringing it up to the newer tech standards and trying to achieve your HP goal. I would be willing to bet in the long run, the LS2 is going to be cheaper.

[Matt@BOS]

I've got an LS2 and getting 500 rwhp will take a bit of money. That's what, roughly 575ish at the crank? which isn't a small number. you'll definitely need new heads and cam, etc. In the end, I think it might be better to get a low mileage LS3. It's more expensive up front but the vastly superior heads and bump in displacement provide for a better foundation, especially for 500 rwhp.

Make sure to check what LS1tech has to say.

Matt

[CamaroAJ]

you can always upgrade later once you figure out what you really need. 500rwhp is alot of power for a rear wheel drive autocross car. good luck hooking up at that point.

[xxxturbo6]

Right now my rwhp is right around 430-450 and so far hooking it up is pretty darn good, Iv'e already had a 1.80 60' time with this car and that was on my TOYO proxis T1R street radials!

The aluminum block is to save weight and distribute weight better more than anything. I will be shedding roughly 100+lbs off the nose of the car just by going with an aluminum LS block. This will also help my 57% front weight distribution.


Please keep the thought coming!



Scot W.

[silver69camaro]

you can always upgrade later once you figure out what you really need. 500rwhp is alot of power for a rear wheel drive autocross car. good luck hooking up at that point.

Exactly. If you are serious about taking this car to autox events, you'll find that amount of power is silly and will slow you down. Don't confuse traction at the drag strip with street pavement, it just wont hook up the same.

In my opinion, keep the motor stock and work up your driving skills. That will show the biggest improvement, by far.

[CamaroAJ]

hooking on a drag strip with VHT sprayed down is not hooking on an autocross with a dirty parking lot.

when i was autocrossing my vette i used the T1R's as well untill i went to R6's. even with 400 rwhp it didn't hook very well. the R6's hooked alot better but i still could spin them very easy.

not saying you shouldn't build a 500hp monster just saying you don't really need it to autocross. and if your on a tight budget now then a 430hp cam only LS1 could hold you over for now and free up extra funds for other go fast parts. then you could keep an eye out for an LS2 or even an LS3 for that matter down the road. have something to drive while you build the engine.

[xxxturbo6]

Exactly. If you are serious about taking this car to autox events, you'll find that amount of power is silly and will slow you down. Don't confuse traction at the drag strip with street pavement, it just wont hook up the same.

In my opinion, keep the motor stock and work up your driving skills. That will show the biggest improvement, by far. Oh i'm not confusing anything! I know the differance and there is more to traction than just tires and VHT! Weight transfer has A LOT to do with it as well and we have managed to get a darn good ballance with the suspension to the point it works great on the Drag strip, street and as a driver... I have been working on my driving skills on the Auto-x and the road course is next!

I am 43 yrs old and have had plenty of hot rods in my time but just don't know much about the LS platform and what I need to make the LS have the same power as it has now. The Reason for this swap over is MAINLY the weight but also looking for some instant throttle responce out of turns like the rest of the guys competeing at the autocross events with LS swaps..

I just wanted to know the pro's & con's of these two engines so I can decide what the best one would be for my goals.


Here is a short video of my car at the RTTH event this year. Placed 30th out of 79 cars with only 3 passes to put up a time which was (1:15.2)! That's the middle of the field and this was only my second time on a auto-x!! Maybe I should'nt change anything!!

Click on image to view..
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/09/th_AutoXCar8-1.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b94/xxxturbo6/?action=view&current=AutoXCar8.mp4)

[CamaroAJ]

what I need to make the LS have the same power as it has now. The Reason for this swap over is MAINLY the weight but also looking for some instant throttle responce out of turns like the rest of the guys competeing at the autocross events with LS swaps..https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/09/th_AutoXCar8-1.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b94/xxxturbo6/?action=view&current=AutoXCar8.mp4)

well now we are talking about something different. in an LS1 since your starting with a lower number off the top (lets say 325-350hp) then with a cam, headers, LS6 intake and a tune your in the 430-440 range depending on the cam profile.

those mods with a stage 2 head swap then your into the 450-475 range easy. depending on how agressive you want to get with it you can get 500rwhp on a stock bottom end. there is a stickey about it on LS1tech.

[CamaroAJ]

oh and the LS2 500hp is easier because of the bigger cubes but both cost roughly the same. the LS2 intake doesn't flow as well as the LS6 intake though.

[jeast]

I love my ls2 GTO and I have no oil issues.

[xxxturbo6]

oh and the LS2 500hp is easier because of the bigger cubes but both cost roughly the same. the LS2 intake doesn't flow as well as the LS6 intake though. Correct! The plans for a LS2 were to go with the LS6 intake, a nice Cam, L92 heads... How close will I be with those items?

The main thing here is I want to make the right choice "ONCE" for future up grades to reach my goal. That goal isn't too far from reachable I don't think.

Now, Do I go F/I or Carb?



SW.

[xxxturbo6]

I love my ls2 GTO and I have no oil issues. They say the only oil issue comes into effect while on a sustained left hand turn resulting in 1.3+ G's on a road course. Other than that they are fine..

[CamaroAJ]

Correct! The plans for a LS2 were to go with the LS6 intake, a nice Cam, L92 heads... How close will I be with those items?

The main thing here is I want to make the right choice "ONCE" for future up grades to reach my goal. That goal isn't too far from reachable I don't think.

Now, Do I go F/I or Carb?


SW.

well if you want to use the LS6 intake you have to go fuel injection. i wouldn't waste money on a stock head. just swap them down the road for some CNCed stock heads like livernois or patriot performance.


They say the only oil issue comes into effect while on a sustained left hand turn resulting in 1.3+ G's on a road course. Other than that they are fine..

its caused by the poor pan design. aftermarket pan and a ported oil pump should take care of all the problems.

[WS6]

Correct! The plans for a LS2 were to go with the LS6 intake, a nice Cam, L92 heads... How close will I be with those items?

The main thing here is I want to make the right choice "ONCE" for future up grades to reach my goal. That goal isn't too far from reachable I don't think.

Now, Do I go F/I or Carb?



SW.

You can't use the LS6 intake with L92/LS3 heads. Just FYI

At this point, I think you're simply making the decision too confusing. Think potential at this point since you're on a budget. With that said, LS2,3, or L92 would be on my radar only. You'll have lots of fun with them bone stock. From there you can build them up easily. This engine is going to react very different than your turbo 6. You'll have a learning curve you'll need to spend time on with the new engine. Worry less about power at this point and more about building a good foundation that will last well into the future. LS2/3 and L92 will provide that for you IMO.

Oiling issues have been around for LSx engines since the beginning in one form or another. You'll find C5 owners talk about how the batwing pan sucks and blah blah blah. Crap happens but the only LSx engine with anything close to a real oiling problem were the 97/98 cars. Even then, it's not that big of a problem unless you really push those engines hard. Beyond the 97/98 engines it is simply not a factor to be concerned about to the point of limiting your engine selection. As mentioned, get an aftermarket pan if you're that worried about it. Piece of mind is worth a lot to some people. I'm just trying to keep you reasonable.

[xxxturbo6]

its caused by the poor pan design. aftermarket pan and a ported oil pump should take care of all the problems. Well from reading on LS1TECH the pans, ported oil pump, and even a accusump isn't taking care of it!!

Those guy's have tried everything and so far a stage 3 Dry sump system has been the only thing stopping the issue.


SW.

[Ron.in.SoCal]

Well from reading on LS1TECH the pans, ported oil pump, and even a accusump isn't taking care of it!!

Those guy's have tried everything and so far a stage 3 Dry sump system has been the only thing stopping the issue.


SW.

From my research, that was my understanding as well. Sustained 1.3g turns are blowing GM dry sump set ups which can get really expensive, really fast. I'm considering doing it right the first time (Stage 3) and not testing the theory...

[xxxturbo6]

You can't use the LS6 intake with L92/LS3 heads. Just FYI

At this point, I think you're simply making the decision too confusing. Think potential at this point since you're on a budget. With that said, LS2,3, or L92 would be on my radar only. You'll have lots of fun with them bone stock. From there you can build them up easily. This engine is going to react very different than your turbo 6. You'll have a learning curve you'll need to spend time on with the new engine. Worry less about power at this point and more about building a good foundation that will last well into the future. LS2/3 and L92 will provide that for you IMO.

Oiling issues have been around for LSx engines since the beginning in one form or another. You'll find C5 owners talk about how the batwing pan sucks and blah blah blah. Crap happens but the only LSx engine with anything close to a real oiling problem were the 97/98 cars. Even then, it's not that big of a problem unless you really push those engines hard. Beyond the 97/98 engines it is simply not a factor to be concerned about to the point of limiting your engine selection. As mentioned, get an aftermarket pan if you're that worried about it. Piece of mind is worth a lot to some people. I'm just trying to keep you reasonable. Thanks Trey,

I contacted a local buddy who has built some nice healthy LS cars over the years. He agreed to help me with this swap and has done several of them so I think things should go rather smoothly. I want to do the cam, Pan, Heads, Intake, and possibly the Accusump right away and be done with it for now then in the future I can add to it if need be.

I bet the learning curve on the LS engine will be easier than it was on the V6!! Cause of that, I have had my share of running around tunning by lap-top... LOL


SW.

[T/Aaron]

I myself would keep the Turbo6 unless it's in pieces. You can improve those cars to run 11's in the quarter. Want to go faster and you're starting to break parts. Maybe that's where you're at. Don't sweat the LS1 vs LS2. There are two main differences, bore size and reluctor wheel. You can make an LS1 run what you want. I would go for the best deal. I would not spend a large amount of extra cash for an LS2 or LS3. The money difference could buy a killer set of heads or maybe a good payment on a supercharger. I'm not sure what the cost difference is, but with the LS2/LS3 you might run into the cylinder deactivation setup, which you'd probably want to bypass anyway. This would mean a new set of lifters maybe? There are a number of books on building LS1's. You might want to get a couple copies as you're looking at 500+ hp, you'll want to see what the stock blocks can take. That might make the decision for you.

[xxxturbo6]

I myself would keep the Turbo6 unless it's in pieces. You can improve those cars to run 11's in the quarter. Want to go faster and you're starting to break parts. Maybe that's where you're at. Don't sweat the LS1 vs LS2. There are two main differences, bore size and reluctor wheel. You can make an LS1 run what you want. I would go for the best deal. I would not spend a large amount of extra cash for an LS2 or LS3. The money difference could buy a killer set of heads or maybe a good payment on a supercharger. I'm not sure what the cost difference is, but with the LS2/LS3 you might run into the cylinder deactivation setup, which you'd probably want to bypass anyway. This would mean a new set of lifters maybe? There are a number of books on building LS1's. You might want to get a couple copies as you're looking at 500+ hp, you'll want to see what the stock blocks can take. That might make the decision for you. There are LOT'S of reasons for switching to honest with you. I'm just getting bored with the V6 stuff. My last GN was built to the hilt and was just too much for autocross so I sold that and bought this one for the sole purpose of building it for the autocross / road courses. This car has a small turbo on it and it spools nice and quick on the street but lacks on the autocross coming out of turns, Yeah I could stick more money ($1,400) into a new Billet dual ball bearing turbo, and go with a liquid Intercooler but in the end it's still a V6 and weighs 100lbs more than the LS2!

Here's the deal, My close friend up north has a Buick just like mine and last year spun a rod bearing so his engine needs to be rebuilt, needs a turbo, and his trans is splipping so I told him if he found me a nice LS2 drop out from a very low mileage 05-06 GTO with a 4L65E trans, LS6 intake, wire harness, ecu, MAF, sensors, that I would trade him everything I have for all the LS2 stuff so basically it won't cost me anything! My buddy Tom has a good friend of the family who owns a salvage yard and the guy told my friend when he gets the car in he can come over and hear it run and then he will pull everything for him..

Can someone please post up a list of the items that he should pull for me? I have no clue what I will end up needing in the long run but i'm sure if it's pulled right away that it will save me a bunch in the in the end.


SW.

[cornfed]

Can someone please post up a list of the items that he should pull for me? I have no clue what I will end up needing in the long run but i'm sure if it's pulled right away that it will save me a bunch in the in the end.
SW.

Get everything that attaches to the engine and transmission- from radiator to drive shaft. Get the shifter assembly with cable, neutral safety switch/connector/pigtail, trans x-member, O2 sensors for both sides, do not cut the power steering hoses, pedals, wiring harness, fuse box.

For my g-body swap, bought everything from the radiator to drive shaft but didn't get the shifter and cable. I've spent ~$2-300 on trying to mix, match, & modify OEM parts for the trans. I finally made a modified the F-body shifter to mount in factory G-body mounting, used the 4L60 shift cable, and 1984 shifter handle. It sounds complicated, but the result is OEM functionality and finish.

[xxxturbo6]

Get everything that attaches to the engine and transmission- from radiator to drive shaft. Get the shifter assembly with cable, neutral safety switch/connector/pigtail, trans x-member, O2 sensors for both sides, do not cut the power steering hoses, pedals, wiring harness, fuse box.

For my g-body swap, bought everything from the radiator to drive shaft but didn't get the shifter and cable. I've spent ~$2-300 on trying to mix, match, & modify OEM parts for the trans. I finally made a modified the F-body shifter to mount in factory G-body mounting, used the 4L60 shift cable, and 1984 shifter handle. It sounds complicated, but the result is OEM functionality and finish. Thanks for the list!! Would I still need the pedals if it's an Auto?

What is needed to hook up to my A/C box and stuff so the A/C works?


Scot W.

[cornfed]

Thanks for the list!! Would I still need the pedals if it's an Auto?
What is needed to hook up to my A/C box and stuff so the A/C works?
Scot W.

Only if you wind up with a drive-by-wire setup. I am using cable, specifically Lokar's LS1 cable.

I haven't plumbed my A/C system yet. I have a Monte SS. I bought the turbo Regal condenser because the fittings are on the right. When I get around to it, I was going to check out Aeroquip's DIY A/C hardware.

For my MCSS, I bought BGN gas tank, fuel pump, and sender instead of using an external pump.