URGENT: I just CANT get my car to stop!

[CAMAROBOY69]

From the day I bought this car the brakes have always sucked bad. I have never owned a car that had brake problems like this. My 1979 truck can lock up all 4 tires like nothing but the camaro is driving me insane with problem.

Specs.
69 Camaro
New stock disk up front. New stock calipers. New stock drum in rear. Wilwood race pads up front. New stock master cylinder. All the lines are new. Wheel cylinders on rear are new. Everything is new----besides the booster.

Here is my exact description of the problem. When I push the pedal the first half of the pedal feels like im pushing on a sponge. Then once it is almost to the floor it finally engages. I believe it even makes an air sound too for the first half.
The brakes dont fade once the pedal engages.

Question: Is my brake booster bad? Is the New master cylinder bad? How can I test the booster?

I bled the brakes over and over again with new 400degree+ fluid this weekend too and still crappy pedal.

[dennis68]

Wilwood race pads up front.
This is a BIG part of your problem. Race pads are not designed to stop at all before they reach optimum temperature, a temperature you would have a very difficult time reaching in a street driving environment. Most race pad manufactures make a point of letting the end consumer know this in advance (the instructions). :doh:

[CAMAROBOY69]

Just ignore the race pads. Thats not the problem. I just installed them on saturday and to be honest they actually improved the brakes.

[Salt Racer]

Adam, check your PM.

Den, I hooked him up with the pads. It's Polymatrix H compound, which starts working at 100*F. All it takes to warm them up is a couple of stops.

[paul67]

Have you got a 1 way valve fitted on the vac hose to booster ?

paul67

[paul67]

How many clicks does the hand brake go before it locks the brakes

paul67

[CAMAROBOY69]

All I have to the booster is 1 big vacuum (actually a fuel line)that hooks to the back of the Holley carb.
I dont have a parking brake but once the brakes engage past the sponge they work great. Its just the first initial push that sucks.
The problem really seems to be somewhere before the brakes themselves. Like booster vacuum. Something around there but im not sure how to check the booster to see if its working properly.

[Rick Dorion]

Block off the ports on the MC and see if the pedal comes back. If it does not, your MC is bad. If it does, reconnect one port at a time and see which one gives you the spongy pedal. It sounds like your hitting (or almost hitting) the end of the stroke when the pedal gets hard. You did bench bleed the MC?

[CAMAROBOY69]

Yes I bench bleed the MC before installing it about 2 years ago. Of all the vehicles I have owned this is the only one that ever gave me brake problems-ever. My 1979 truck brakes are awesome and I replaced all the same components as the Camaro.

Good idea about blocking the MC. Dang should have done that over the weekend while I was bleeeding brakes. :hand:
With race event tomorrow I really dont have any time left for anything.

The reason I am almost to the end of the stroke on the MC is because of the Hydrolic clutch plate I installed when I installed from Tito Jones kit. It installes between the MC and firewall. I love the kit but it did cause my brake pedal to be a lot closer to the floor than I wanted. I tried to adjust it too with no luck. (his kit is still awesome just watch your brake pedal)

[paul67]

You need to know how far the brake shoes are away from the drum when you fitted them were the slightly rubbing the drum then backed off 1 click it could be that they are having to move to far ie displacing to much oil before they hit the shoes also the vac should be fitted to the inlet manifold and should be about 3/8" bore with a 1 way valve if you have a daily prodution car check how that pipe to the booster is fitted, you should see what i mean also post a couple of pics if poss.

paul67

[CAMAROBOY69]

The rear brakes were pretty much already adjusted perfect. Self adjusters actually worked well for once. The pads on rear barely rubbed at all when drum came off and on so they were almost perfect.

The pipe to the booster is pretty much just a tube sticking out of the booster and thats about it. Nothing special at all there.
SO I should relocate the vacuum to my intake instead of the carb? Ill try to find some old pics. Gotta be some somewhere.

[paul67]

how do you post pics into this forum as i have a pics tp post

[CAMAROBOY69]

http://www.imageshack.us/
Click "browse" then find your pic and click "host it" and copy any of those links available. Very easy.

[paul67]

its loaded see the little valve on the bend and the size of pipe.
paul67

[CAMAROBOY69]

I dont see anything?

[CAMAROBOY69]

Here are some VERY OLD pics I had at work. yes I know the engine is ugly as hell and yes im repainting it.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img7.echo.cx/my.php?image=oldcovers6by.jpg)https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img7.echo.cx/my.php?image=newcovers9ay.jpg)
I dont even have my 6 speed conversion in yet thats how old these pics are.

[paul67]

IP 84.66.179.81
paul67

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Adam,

It definitely sounds like a bad booster to me. If you pump the pedal with the car off, do you hear a loud swoosh sound, and does the pedal then stiffen up? Your problem sounds EXACTLY like the problem I had in my Tahoe(the brakes suck on that too, btw, similar to your setup disc/drum). In order to get the truck to stop I had to press the pedal all the way down. The first half of travel did nothing and felt like a sponge. A hydroboost would be a great cure for this, but with 1 day until the track event, this is not going to happen. Hopefully someone here will know a quick fix? My booster finally went a few months back, I replaced it with a rebuilt unit, and the spongy feeling got better, but was still somewhat there. I'd try to trouble shoot that booster if I was you and see what you can come up with.

[CAMAROBOY69]

Yes Ralph SWOOOOSH is exactly what I hear. Like I am stepping on the chest of some old man. :lmao:
Right after that the pedal stiffens up.
Ive been wanting a hydraboost set up but damn I just have too much other crap to buy from this site. :pat:
How much is the Hydraboost. I wouldnt consider it for a couple months but what am I looking at for price roughly?

[paul67]

looks like you might not have the valve fitted,do not worry what it looks like its no good looking good if it does not work,
paul67 can you see pic

[CAMAROBOY69]

No I cant see any pic. Send it to me via PM and Ill post it.
I am going to look into a "Check valve" to put into the booster. I gues they are only $10.00
Or send the pic to my e-mail [email protected]

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Yes Ralph SWOOOOSH is exactly what I hear. Like I am stepping on the chest of some old man. :lmao:
Right after that the pedal stiffens up.
Ive been wanting a hydraboost set up but damn I just have too much other crap to buy from this site. :pat:
How much is the Hydraboost. I wouldnt consider it for a couple months but what am I looking at for price roughly?


Sounds identical to what was wrong with my Tahoe. I'm not 100% sure on the pricing of the hydroboosts, I haven't checked in a few months. I know there are 3-stages ranging from rebuilt to brand new, I think they're all within the $300-500 range, but I could be a bit off on the pricing.

I think the rebuilt booster ran me about $80-90 when I purchased it. I got it from a friend at a local parts store, he said they sell those all the time, the boosters are junk.

[CAMAROBOY69]

I might try to steal the check valve off of my truck since the local stores dont seem to have one. Ive been driving it like this for over 3 years so I guess ill just deal with it and get a booster later or a long shot would be the hydraboost system. $300-$500 Thats a little steep for me especially right now.
If my car stopped anywhere near as good as my truck I would be very happy. I dont need a crazy brake set up.
Local store has a brake booster $77.00.

[dennis68]

Den, I hooked him up with the pads. It's Polymatrix H compound, which starts working at 100*F. All it takes to warm them up is a couple of stops.
OK, then scratch that. Try clamping off the rear brake hose and see if changes anything, then each of the fronts one at a time.

I'm wondering about the M/C pushrod depth, are you pretty confident the M/C/booster/pushrod/pedal hole are all matched somewhat closely?

[paul67]

pm sent
paul67

[CAMAROBOY69]

Here is the pic he was trying to post. I have the part that hooks to the booster but I dont have that other part where the 2 lines meet in the middle. What is that part called? I thought it was the "check valve" but I guess not.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img95.echo.cx/my.php?image=boosterline2nk.jpg)

[paul67]

thats the check valve
paul67. theres a pm on the way that also might help

[David Pozzi]

Master cyls have two versions, a deep hole and a shallow hole for the pushrod, there are two booster pushrod lengths, where the pushrod comes out of the master cyl side of the booster. If you put a deep hole MC on where a short hole one was, you would have a lot of wasted travel on your pedal. The booster is going to make a wooshng noise anytime there is a lot of travel, more air goes into the booster = more noise.

I have pics of the pushrods and their lengths on my web page in my sig. The short one is less than flush with the booster, the long one sticks out a bit, you can pull on it and it will come right out, the cup seal around the pushrod must be in good condion or you will have a loss of vaccum and a hard but high pedal.

In a pinch you can cut a piece of bolt or rod and throw it in the master cyl hole to act as a spacer.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2005/05/twoboosters-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2005/05/mcrear-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2005/05/boosterpushrods-1.jpg

[CAMAROBOY69]

Thanks for all the great info everyone. The previous owner did a lot of strange things to this car so who knows, he might have actullly put the wrong pushrod in. It wouldnt surprise me at all. No matter what, this is going to be the next project I concentrate on. Regardless I need to pull the brake pedal out so I can get it further from the floor. That will eliminate a lot of the problem. My pedal is mabey 2" from the floor max since I installed the hydrolic kit. Im going to look at the master cyllinder again to night to see if I can adjust the rod from the MC that goes to the brake pedal out any. I remember trying this before and I cant remember why it didnt work. It either kept spinning and didnt get any longer or it just didnt spin.

[David Pozzi]

If your master cyl/pushrod is wrong, the pedal rod won't make up for it plus you will then lose stroke in the booster and not get enough travel.

There has to be some serious problem to cause it.
I have the pushrod lengths on my website, go to the suspension page then select my brake page.

[CAMAROBOY69]

I wont have a chance before the event to check out the pushrod length but now that I have this thread I can look back at the different ideas and start checking everything. I will also compare the lengths to your site lengths and I will post them too.
Its just funny how we adapt to our own cars. My friend got in and was pumping the brake while we were bleeding them and he just couldnt believe how bad the pedal was and how it wasnt there. I told him I just got used to it. But now I realize I really need to take care of this problem in the near future. I dont think I have ever been able to lock up the brakes in this car no matter how hard I slam the brakes. SAD.
My girlfriends little leg can get all 4 tires locked up in my 4x4 truck with 35" tires. Just bothers me and its finally getting to me enough to do something about it.

Here is another piece of information. The sponge feel at the top of the brakes isn't any better with the car running than it is with the car off.

[paul67]

that also points to the booster pump the pedal with the engine off when you switch the engine on the pedal should go down a bit as the vac kicks in.
paul67 ,

[fuzzyonion]

The part that sticks in the booster is the check valve. The part in the picture where the two lines connect is a filter.

Check the pushrod length as stated. There is always time. It only takes 5minutes. Unbolt the 2 NUTS at the master and pull it forward. See how far the rod sticks out of the booster. Put your pinky finger behind the master and see if it has a shallow or deep hole.

I wouldn't worry about the "whoosh" until you check the rod length. It may not be detrimental at this time.

Did I say 5min? I meant 3. It took me almost that long to type this post.

You're not actually planning on driving with bad brakes, right? I got kids out there.

[TitoJones]

I think I know what it might possibly be.
Adam- was your car a 4spd or auto car when you converted over to my T56 kit?
What I'm getting at is if you had to swap pedals, you might not have:
1)gotten the pushrod in the right hole on the brake pedal or
2)not have the correct 69 pedals or
3)the short/long pushrod issue with the depth of the MC.

All things to check. Harshmans car had terrible brakes until we put the old brake pedal back in to verify the correct hole, and found it was in a different spot than on the repop pedal. Check your old auto pedal if you still have it (if your car was an auto conversion)

Plus, Harshman finally got tired of vacuum issues too, and stepped up to the hydroboost.

Tyler

[PRO TC]

i would say david has it. wrong pushrod. if its was a booster you would have a hard pedal. i just switched boosters on my 67 and it came with both rods. if you need the longer rod email me and ill give it to you.

pro tc/barry

[CAMAROBOY69]

Im not sure if you guys checked out the Gingerman raceway thread but you really really should. Long story short. I did so well I kept up with the new C5 Corvettes and even passed one out there. You should view that thread. My brakes seem to be ok besides the lack of pedal. Here is that thread and just view the videos towards the end of the thread. https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6407

Tyler my car had a 4 speed in it and I never swapped pedals. I left the original ones in there. My brakes seemed to be better than I though. Try to watch those videos I posted in the gingerman thread.

[CAMAROBOY69]

I absolutely cant get the rod out that has the u shaped bracket on there so I took the entire booster out. Hopefully these pics will help you determine the problem.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img266.echo.cx/my.php?image=14zl.jpg)https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img48.echo.cx/my.php?image=26hv.jpg)https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img48.echo.cx/my.php?image=37ht.jpg)
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img48.echo.cx/my.php?image=42sv1.jpg)https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img48.echo.cx/my.php?image=52jl.jpg)

[68protouring454]

can't really tell if you have a shallow or deep m/c which is it?? looks like a long booster pushrod
jake

[68protouring454]

i am not sure but the brake pedal to booster rod looks odd to me, different then the ones i have on both my 68 camaros?? i think your alright in the booster to m/c area, uhhh
jake

[CAMAROBOY69]

Its a deep MC.

[68protouring454]

ok then the booster to m/c rod looks correct, i think you have issues with the pedal to booster rod, it does not look correct to me, hopefully someone else will chime in, get the pics i sent of mine?
jake

[CAMAROBOY69]

Yeah I just got the pics. If I have to i will just make this bracket longer and re-drill the holes in it if no one sees anything else thats wrong.

[fuzzyonion]

Without the brackets it looks like a big car booster. If it bolts straight to the firewall, without the angled brackets, the pushrod angle is incorrect for your car, and could be the cause of your problem.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img272.echo.cx/my.php?image=boosterangled7st.jpg)https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img220.echo.cx/my.php?image=angledmaster8ij.jpg)

(With it being straight like that, the upper manual brake hole in the pedal might give you the right angle, but the brakes would probably be overly sensative. Basically, if the above is the case, you could be using pedal travel to increase pushrod angle, rather than push the pushrod.)

[68protouring454]

nice work, i did not notice the booster is missing the bracket to make it sit level!!
adam does the master sit level when all bolted up to booster?? all camaros have a angle bracket for mounting point on the firewall to make it sit level, your does not have this, meaning its the wrong booster as fuzzy said, i would get another correct booster rather then gump whats there
jake

[David Pozzi]

I think you are right, that booster is lacking the angle bracket. I'd say it's time to get a new correct booster.

Here's a good deal on a NEW booster. The one for $149 DOES NOT have the Delco Morane stamp but the price is much lower.
I bought a similar one for my wife's 73 Camaro and it looks great, just about to get it running...
http://www.hotrodsusa.com/
The part no that should fit your car is: HRB 2411190

They took a while to get it to me, close to 3 weeks, so allow for a wait.
The booster is made by MBM, they supply most restoration parts houses.

[David Pozzi]

Here is the pic he was trying to post. I have the part that hooks to the booster but I dont have that other part where the 2 lines meet in the middle. What is that part called? I thought it was the "check valve" but I guess not.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img95.echo.cx/my.php?image=boosterline2nk.jpg)

The black thing in the middle of the hose is a "filter", it keeps gas fumes from entering the booster, I think it has activated charcoal inside. They were introduced some time around 1973 or 1974. Not used on a first gen, but not a bad idea.

[CAMAROBOY69]

My car has the bracket guys. I just left it bolted to the firewall to hold up Tylers bracket for the hydrolic clutch. However mine doesnt sit "level" I actually havent seen any Camaro sit "level". I was pretty sure they all angle up a little bit in the front just like Fuzzys pic shows.
Regardless I will probably just buy a new booster for Piece of mind anyway since everything else for the cars brakes is new.

[68protouring454]

adam, you have the wrong brake pedal u bracket, you have some huge bent up bracket, look at fuzzys drawing pic and compare it to your pic of the bracket that hooks to brake pedal, then compare it to my pic i sent you, this is not right
jake

[Serpa69]

I have an angle on my break booster too. I had the same problem. The break pedal just does not even come up super high. I went as far as to take the adjustment out on the u bracket and weld two nuts on the bottom then I reinstalled it in the car. It did help a little. I also purchased the correct combination valve and installed a adjustable proportioning valve. I adjusted the rear shoes and that helped a little also. I feel your pain and it does suck.