Carbon Fiber Forgeline Wheels - Say it ain't SO !!!!

[syborg tt]

I can't believe my eye's.

These pictures hit my in-box today and I just needed to share them with everyone.

The Carbon Fiber looks perfect on these wheels

[brans72]

putting your house up to afford them?

[MattG]

The first step is admitting it!

Crazy Cool :drool:

[67goatman455]

do bad its fake. ill guess they are hydro-dipped

[tazzz25906112]

I think so, but hell they look good.....

Honestly my heart did a double beat thinking Forge-line jumped me into production on a Carbon composite wheel center.... I'd sure like to hook up with them on a couple of their designs though,,,, darn nice wheels they make...

[syborg tt]

I think so, but hell they look good.....

Honestly my heart did a double beat thinking Forge-line jumped me into production on a Carbon composite wheel center.... I'd sure like to hook up with them on a couple of their designs though,,,, darn nice wheels they make...

I agree they look perfect

okay so tell me more about Carbon Customs ([email protected])

[monza]

Saw some carbon fiber HRE's at SEMA a few years ago. The hoops are the carbon part. Serious bling $$$ Looked amazing.

[Nessumsar]

Those Forgies look killer, a carbon mesh-style wheel would be killer!

Wedsports make a full carbon wheel. They weigh a hair over 6 pounds...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[ZZ430]

^^^ wow^^^

[DarkBuddha]

Those do look very nice.

BTW...

Wedsports make a full carbon wheel. They weigh a hair over 6 pounds...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

The $10-12K per set price (yes, $10,000-$12,000!) for the Wedsports makes $6-8K for HREs seem almost reasonable.

[CarQz17]

Those wedsports wheels are perfect. The Forgelines look cool but that definitely is not real carbon.

[sixty5hellvell]

What a waste of money, come on one pot hole and they are trash. Might as well just piss away your money.

[Derek69SS]

Fake carbon-fiber = lame
real carbon-fiber = badass!!!

[tazzz25906112]

What a waste of money, come on one pot hole and they are trash. Might as well just piss away your money.

There was a time where I'd have agreed with that comment, however, with the development on new technologies and the use of carbon cmposites (not just plain Carbon and Epoxy) this isn't necessary the case.... The newer approaches are showing promise that may change your mind in the very foreseeable future....

Of course anything that is bad enough to trash a forged wheel will likely do the same on Carbon Composites.... Lets just say the approach, matterials and research is developing some interesting options in this arena....

[formula]

What a waste of money, come on one pot hole and they are trash. Might as well just piss away your money.

Wish I could find the shot of me standing on the nose of one of the LMP cars at Petit Le Mans this past weekend--Carbon Fiber Reinforced Plastics have come a long way, like Albert said. If I do find it, consider this post a placeholder for it....

[Bryce]

I am an engineer for an aerospace company and I do a lot of destructive testing on carbon fiber. You will be surprised at the ultimate failure loads.

With CF you just need to change the way you design the part and take advatage of the strengths that CF can offer.

[John Wright]

Stay away from some of those tire stores unless you trust them boys with those air guns....and check behind them, because a loose lug nut would ruin your day....LOL

[Yelcamino]

Those Forgies look killer, a carbon mesh-style wheel would be killer!

Wedsports make a full carbon wheel. They weigh a hair over 6 pounds...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

That's so cool! :drool:

[PARKERRS]

I am an engineer for an aerospace company and I do a lot of destructive testing on carbon fiber. You will be surprised at the ultimate failure loads.

With CF you just need to change the way you design the part and take advatage of the strengths that CF can offer.


AGREED! I worked for Lockheed aircraft back in the late 80's-early 90's. I was in the composites bond shop along with R&D. I did a lot of stress testing, destructive testing, etc. on carbon composites, kevlar composites and hybrid carbon/kevlar composites alongside the aluminum and steel counterparts they were to replace. You would be totally shocked at what these materials can stand when designed and manufactured properly with cross-weave stacking in multiple layers and cured with a vacuum bag in an autoclave at 350 degrees and 85 psi.

[twosaturns]

I've heard all the arguments about yield strength etc of CF since it first hit bicycles in the late 80's. then they strarted w/ CF forks, now just about everything on a modern race bicycle is carbon.
it only takes one look (if you are the fortunate one not to be riding it) at a snapped off head tube or collapsed rim to realize it isn't always the best application of the technology.
but, carbon fiber is great... when someone else is paying for it.

[sixty5hellvell]

All I am trying to say is that for 15,000 grand the benefit of those wheels is very minimal in comparison to what you could do with that kind of money. The wheels on my car are like 80 dollars a piece, if I break one no big deal if I broke one of those I would be running for the razor blades. LOL:)

[Derek69SS]

All I am trying to say is that for 15,000 grand the benefit of those wheels is very minimal in comparison to what you could do with that kind of money. The wheels on my car are like 80 dollars a piece, if I break one no big deal if I broke one of those I would be running for the razor blades. LOL:)
That goes back to my "what level is the car driven at?" argument in the $1000/ea wheel thread... For pretty much everyone here, spending $15k on some uber-lightweight wheels would be a waste.

For someone competing at a top-level of a national series, once all your competitors have them, you pretty much have to have them too to be competitive... and if you can be the first one in your series or class to have them, you'll enjoy collecting trophies until everyone else catches up.

[badbu68]

I have real carbon fiber spin wheels on my trek mtn bike, now it doesn't have the amount of travel as my other one does, but they do take abuse. The only time they failed/shattered is when my brother got hit by a car from the side and slid up the hood. Spin sent us new wheels and I've had them since 07.

[Vegas69]

I love my forgelines but that's some cheesy crap.

[BLWN1]

I need a new job.... damn.

[ZZ430]

Keep your eyes open and don't hit pot holes.

Simple solution.

[wmhjr]

I've heard all the arguments about yield strength etc of CF since it first hit bicycles in the late 80's. then they strarted w/ CF forks, now just about everything on a modern race bicycle is carbon.
it only takes one look (if you are the fortunate one not to be riding it) at a snapped off head tube or collapsed rim to realize it isn't always the best application of the technology.
but, carbon fiber is great... when someone else is paying for it.

I stayed away from CF bikes back in the very early 90s myself. Back then, most of the CF frames used a composite construction with steel joints and straight gauge CF tubing. The failures were mainly at the joints.

Now, I'm a pretty big guy for a cyclist (Clydesdale - just a bit over 200lbs) but I've been riding CF road bikes for about 6 yrs. Trek Postal frame and now a Cervelo. The seat stays look REAL small, but this bike is tough as hell, stiff, and strong. CF has really come a long way.

[wmhjr]

Carbon Fiber Wheels would give a whole new meaning to a "monster burnout"

[twosaturns]

I stayed away from CF bikes back in the very early 90s myself. Back then, most of the CF frames used a composite construction with steel joints and straight gauge CF tubing. The failures were mainly at the joints.

Now, I'm a pretty big guy for a cyclist (Clydesdale - just a bit over 200lbs) but I've been riding CF road bikes for about 6 yrs. Trek Postal frame and now a Cervelo. The seat stays look REAL small, but this bike is tough as hell, stiff, and strong. CF has really come a long way.
www.bustedcarbon.com

[syborg tt]

I've heard all the arguments about yield strength etc of CF since it first hit bicycles in the late 80's. then they strarted w/ CF forks, now just about everything on a modern race bicycle is carbon.
it only takes one look (if you are the fortunate one not to be riding it) at a snapped off head tube or collapsed rim to realize it isn't always the best application of the technology.
but, carbon fiber is great... when someone else is paying for it.

I could agree more with the above statement. If you think Carbon doesn't fail then you have been misguided. I am certain that the carbon they use in Aerospace is way out of everyone's league as far as cost.

Here is a perfect example of a $800.00 dollar pair of top of the line state of the art MTB cranks.

[wmhjr]

www.bustedcarbon.com (http://www.bustedcarbon.com)

Interesting site. Notice how many of the failures are due to abuse?

Anything can and will fail. It's all risk vs reward. Having ridden Columbus CroMo steel frames, Ti frames, Aluminum frames and CF frames, I'll never go back. The CF soaks up road vibration great, is strong, light, but still climbs wonderfully. I don't ride CF wheels - I think I'm a little too heavy, and my Ksyriums are just fine. I do, however, have CF cranks.

So out of curiosity, if you don't subscribe to using CF for road cycling, what materials DO you think are better? I've seen AL crack and break as well. CroMo double butted tubing has failed. Ti has failed. If we're talking about failure in an accident (hitting a car, etc) I really don't care. All I care about are catastrophic failures while riding, where the CF failure CAUSE the accident.

Truth is, if CF were so dangerous, liability alone would prevent manufacturers from becoming so dependent on it, IMHO.

[John Wright]

Wow what a small sprocket up front! Tree climbing gear right there.

[wmhjr]

John, the other chain rings are missing from the photo I'm assuming. The open holes are where the larger chain rings would attach. That actually looks pretty normal for a small chain ring on a mountain bike. About a 24.

[rentedmule]

I'm running a carbon legged manitou dorado on my bike and I haven't heard of one of those failing (yet) but I once snapped the leg off of a carbon Girvin linkage fork just by pulling on it. Scary stuff!

[John Wright]

John, the other chain rings are missing from the photo I'm assuming. The open holes are where the larger chain rings would attach. That actually looks pretty normal for a small chain ring on a mountain bike. About a 24.
Oh OK, now I see....thought that was the "large" front sprocket...LOL.....couldn't imagine sprockets any smaller up front.

[syborg tt]

So out of curiosity, if you don't subscribe to using CF for road cycling, what materials DO you think are better? All I care about are catastrophic failures while riding, where the CF failure CAUSE the accident.

Currently I ride a Moots Ti full Suspension Mountain Bike with an Aluminum rear triangle. However I do have CF Bar & Seat Post. Had the cranks but as you can see they failed horrible. The were kind enough to send me there new design and I am still a little skeptical about using them. Trust me when they broke I was just climing a normal hill and it hurt like hell when my shin hit the stem.


Wow what a small sprocket up front! Tree climbing gear right there.

Yep that is my small ring. The gear that is missing is my 36 tooth. The rest of the ride was a blast trying to keep up with my buddies with a 24 tooth gear.


Side Note
So far I've seen snapped carbon bars and seat posts. When the bar fails the wrecks on a mtb are horrific.

One thing that I have learned is how important it is to properly torque the stem retaining bolts for the handle bar. To tight on the clamp seems to be one of the reason they are failing.

[Nessumsar]

I have seen carbon frames and components come along way in just the 6 years that I have been in the bike industry; I wouldn't think twice to run any major manufacturers carbon components.

As long as a part is designed with the strenghts and weaknesses of carbon fiber in mind, there would be no reason, other than cost, to use it.


On a side note: anyone looking to buy a downhill bike? lol

[wmhjr]

Clearly MTB puts an entirely different kind of stress on the bike than road cycling. I don't MTB anymore because it's just too tough dealing with the inevitible injuries. I'd guess that just like MTB riding (at least around here) uses a good bit more anaerobic activity, there is also a lot more potential for shock and shear type failures with just about any material. I used to ride and race MTB years ago (like when front suspension was cutting edge) and I broke all kinds of parts.

My own belief is that if for road cycling, if you eliminate failures due to either abuse or improper installation, failures are extremely rare. Like for your example, exceeding torque values on clamps can totally ruin the structural design of components. That goes in particular for seat tubes, handebar clamps and head tubes. I also think you have to keep in mind the intent. For me, I think it would be plain crazy to ride either CF wheels OR radial spokes around here, especially at my size/weight. A typical lightweight cyclist that's racing? OK. But at over 200lbs, with lots of climbing and generally rough roads, that's just asking too much.

Probably no different than expecting to bolt a very lightweight ultra low profile wheel/tire combo on a 4000lb car around here, and expect the wheels to last more than a couple years.

BTW, those cranks seem far more flimsy than my road CF cranks seem. I'm running FSA cranks, and though they're light, they seem stronger than the pics of what you show.

[syborg tt]

I have seen carbon frames and components come along way in just the 6 years that I have been in the bike industry; I wouldn't think twice to run any major manufacturers carbon components.

The cranks in the above picture are only 3 months old from a top manufacture. I can also show you pictures of a snapped top of the line Carbon frame from Trek and that bike was only a month old and the rider was 160 #

Don't get me wrong I am considering a carbon hardtail to replace my ti soft-tail. I just know at some point it's going to fatigue and fail.

[twosaturns]

I worked as a repair mechanic for 15 years and have seen lots of busted bikes. problem w/ CF failure is that it's catastrophic, no warning. steel breaks from long term fatigue. I have seen broken steel, but they are quite rare.
every situation is different; I've seen trek OCLV carbon cracks that were run for years, but sometimes a steertube or fork leg just gives out.
I like my bikes simple, I don't want to have to go over the frame w/ a fine tooth comb before every ride or retorque stuff every day.
btw, I ride a surly pacer road bike, 4130 steel, steel fork, campagnolo aluminum crank. my riding weight is about 165lbs. not a lick of carbon on the bike. had a cannondale w/ a full carbon fork, didn't like the creak/crack sounds it made, scared myself thinking of a failure on a fast downhill.

[wmhjr]

snapped top of the line Carbon frame from Trek and that bike was only a month old and the rider was 160 #

Don't get me wrong I am considering a carbon hardtail to replace my ti soft-tail. I just know at some point it's going to fatigue and fail.

Just food for thought - even though I own a Trek myself I consider the Trek CF frames as kind of "middle of the road" frames - not the equal of a Pinerello, Cervelo, Eddy Mercx, etc. JHMO - though it has nothing to do with the structural integrity.

I would also suggest that a more accurate statement would be "I just BELIEVE at some point it's going to fatigue and fail".

There are far too many CF bikes out there - many of which have been professionally thrashed - that have not failed. So, it's a little bit of an overstatement to say that it WILL fatigue and fail.

JMHO.

[wmhjr]

I worked as a repair mechanic for 15 years and have seen lots of busted bikes. problem w/ CF failure is that it's catastrophic, no warning. steel breaks from long term fatigue. I have seen broken steel, but they are quite rare.
every situation is different; I've seen trek OCLV carbon cracks that were run for years, but sometimes a steertube or fork leg just gives out.
I like my bikes simple, I don't want to have to go over the frame w/ a fine tooth comb before every ride or retorque stuff every day.
btw, I ride a surly pacer road bike, 4130 steel, steel fork, campagnolo aluminum crank. my riding weight is about 165lbs. not a lick of carbon on the bike. had a cannondale w/ a full carbon fork, didn't like the creak/crack sounds it made, scared myself thinking of a failure on a fast downhill.

Keith, I agree with the issue that a CF failure can be catastrophic (like any other failure, to be honest). I've also seen steel break from OTHER than long term. I've seen aluminum crack on a less than yr old bike. Anything can happen. That's IMHO not an indictment of CF alone.

I'd also say that the "creaking" of your cannondale was likely NOT due to the carbon fork. The noisiest, creakiest bikes I've EVER ridden are Aluminum - period. I've got a Raleigh R600 Aluminum "beater" bike that is incredibly noisy. both in terms of cables vibrating against the tubes like strings on a harp, and creaking in the head tube, and ESPECIALLY around the bottom bracket. My Cannondale DV1000 MTB (see, I'm dating myself) was always a creaking contraption.

We all have different experiences.

[John Wright]

I have seen broken steel, but they are quite rare.

I broke a steel frame and that hurt...sent me over the handlebars.
I was showing off, spinning the rear tire (single speed with 54f/14r tooth combo)and doing doughnuts like the YT vid of that middle eastern kid on a 20"....frame broke under the crank set and my pedal hit the ground on the next revolution and launched me up in the air over the handlebars.

6GNB7xT3rNE

[syborg tt]

Just food for thought - even though I own a Trek myself I consider the Trek CF frames as kind of "middle of the road" frames - not the equal of a Pinerello, Cervelo, Eddy Mercx, etc. JHMO - though it has nothing to do with the structural integrity.

Maybe for Road but not for Mountain / Cross country bikes.

Trek right now owns the research and development on cf frames and they are even made here in the USA. Wow shocking I know.


I would also suggest that a more accurate statement would be "I just BELIEVE at some point it's going to fatigue and fail".

Okay I kinda agree with your above statement. However till you ride a CF part and it fails - man is the trust gone. That being said are you will to take a chance ripping down a Downhill doing 30 plus mph with that little dark secret in the back of your head.


There are far too many CF bikes out there - many of which have been professionally thrashed - that have not failed. So, it's a little bit of an overstatement to say that it WILL fatigue and fail.

Two points i can make.
One being professionally thrashed bikes - meaning team sponsored, pro sponsored, or your weekend race warrior most of those riders change out bikes more frequent then the average riders that keep a bike for a few years and thats when failures happen.


On a second note there are way to many Toyota Prius on the road and they have the largest carbon footprint out of any car ever produce. So your statement sounds good on paper but i can take you to our local trails here in the midwest and introduce you to at least 2 dozen guys that have broken CF frames, forks and other parts.

[DarkBuddha]

Just to add to the discussion, carbon fiber has been noted to have excellent resonance properties as well... I'm still saving pennies for one of these:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Pretty cheap at only $7200: http://www.luisandclark.com/shop/cello/

[wmhjr]

Maybe for Road but not for Mountain / Cross country bikes. Trek right now owns the research and development on cf frames and they are even made here in the USA. Wow shocking I know.

Yeah, I guess you've been focusing on MTB and I have on road. I've been out of MTB stuff for too long. WAY too long. I have no idea what's going on in that world any longer. It is pretty neat that Trek still makes most of their CF frames in the US. Not all, but most.


Okay I kinda agree with your above statement. However till you ride a CF part and it fails - man is the trust gone. That being said are you will to take a chance ripping down a Downhill doing 30 plus mph with that little dark secret in the back of your head.

I agree with you there. Honestly, I've never been that comfortable even 20 yrs ago doing downhill. I'm just too tall and big, and it's way to easy to end up over the bars and on the ground. But the point is that the lack of trust and the concern are different. It's one thing to believe a part WILL fail. It's another completely to consider the effect IF it fails.




Two points i can make.
One being professionally thrashed bikes - meaning team sponsored, pro sponsored, or your weekend race warrior most of those riders change out bikes more frequent then the average riders that keep a bike for a few years and thats when failures happen

On a second note there are way to many Toyota Prius on the road and they have the largest carbon footprint out of any car ever produce. So your statement sounds good on paper but i can take you to our local trails here in the midwest and introduce you to at least 2 dozen guys that have broken CF frames, forks and other parts.

The Prius reference escapes me completely. I have no idea what you're saying there. But as for the abuse, those same frames that teams go through end up in some guys garage as recreational frames. Plus, the rec racers don't really swap frames THAT often. Personally, I've seen CF handlebars and seat posts fail. I've seen a few older TREK (like early 90s) bonded CF frames fail. I've never seen a road frame catastrophically fail. My riding group typically does a 25-40 mile ride tues and Thurs evenings and one or two 45-100 mile rides on the weekend. Lots of climb. Some rough roads, including everything from potholes, RR crossings, tar and chip, manholes, etc.

Like I said, anything can fail. Back to the OP, I personally wouldn't be interested in the wheels for myself even if they were the same prices as some forgeline 3 piece forged. Roads here are too rough, car is too heavy, can't imagine how to protect them even to mount tires, etc.

But CF wheels would be trick.... How about them on an Ariel Atom?

[syborg tt]

The Prius reference escapes me completely.

okay yep i am sure i confused you there. People who buy Prius think they are helping the enviroment. However out technology isn't there yet and the cost ( cabon footprint ) to ship all of the parts around the world is outrageous. For every car sold they are losing money. But they need to do it so they can in the future actually make money selling them.

Plus what in heck are we going to do with all of the dead batteries. I know my neighbor gave her hybrid back to the dealer because battery replacement was more then the car was worth. She said it was the worst investment in her life. This time she was smarter and bought a vw TDI and it gets better mileage and she isn't forced to go to the dealer for service.



But CF wheels would be trick.... How about them on an Ariel Atom?

Now your talking. There is a dealer right down the street from me. Man do i want one of them.

[sixty5hellvell]

I have been saying the same thing about the prius since the begining, those batteries have to go somewhere. Technology sometimes just is really a giant step backwards when they dont thing about the longterm effects. I think the people who buy those cars just do it so they can feel better about there enviormental footprint when in reality those batteries will offset any benifit that car will ever have, plus they are so ugly not even mother earth could love them.:)