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73z-6sp
05-21-2005, 06:55 PM
I am doing some preliminary research on engine choices for my next project. I think I want to do EFI but I am not sure. It seems that I remember reading in a magazine long ago that there were issues with fitting the LS1 in the first gen camaro and retaining the stock LS1 a/c compressor. Is this true? Is there a simple fix for it or does it involve some serious fabrication? I dont really want to run aftermarket accessories because of the cost. The engine combos I see listed on ebay seem like a good way to get engine and tranny for about the same or less than I can build an engine/tranny for plus it has the injection. Any thoughts/advice?

shanekennedy
05-23-2005, 04:25 AM
I am doing some preliminary research on engine choices for my next project. I think I want to do EFI but I am not sure. It seems that I remember reading in a magazine long ago that there were issues with fitting the LS1 in the first gen camaro and retaining the stock LS1 a/c compressor. Is this true? Is there a simple fix for it or does it involve some serious fabrication? I dont really want to run aftermarket accessories because of the cost. The engine combos I see listed on ebay seem like a good way to get engine and tranny for about the same or less than I can build an engine/tranny for plus it has the injection. Any thoughts/advice?

you can notch you frame or buy an aftermarket bracket.
check out the conversions/hybirds form @ http://ls1tech.com/forums/

69speed
05-23-2005, 08:50 AM
I have a 69 camaro with a 2000 LS1. To solve the a/c issue you are concerned about I bought brackets from Street and Performance that relocate the compressor up high out of the way. You may notch the frame to clear the compressor also. No big deal either way you choose to go.
HOWEVER, let me warn you before you place your bid for the LS1 there are going to be many costly mods that you may not have thought about. I certainly did not know what I was in for. The cost of aftermarket gauges are not one of the biggest concerns as most end up with those regardless of engine choice.
I spent ~$1000 for my radiator another ~$1000 for my stainless gas tank w/internal pump. Motor mount adapters, fabbed a new trans crossmember, new modified fuel rail, fuel lines, rewiring and reprogramming the computer, rewiring the car because you dont trust that ratty old harness with your $1000 computer, headers, full custom exhaust, cold air intake.........
You need this stuff for any car, but everything is more expensive for the LS1. I am sure you could spend less than I have also, but most of the expense is in the custom modifications needed to adapt the motor to a 1st gen.
Also, you didn't mention what transmission you want to run, but there is the expense and fabrication of adapting the slave cylinder to the clutch pedal if you choose to go with the T56.
Now that you have been warned I strongly encourage you to get the LS1. :) It is AWESOME in my 69:) totally worth the extra effort for me. It is SO much fun to drive and starts right up everytime with no pumping or priming.

shanekennedy
05-23-2005, 09:55 AM
69speed, why did yo need modified fuel rails?

73z-6sp
05-23-2005, 11:34 AM
Thanks for the input guys! That is what I was hoping for.
You have almost scared me away form the LS!! Not really but a made me think about a few things. Im a perfectionist so I probably would end up spending a lot! The clutch-work you mention I know all too well! I installed the t56 in my 73 Camaro and while the end result is awesome, the work to get there is not minimal. FWIW, I plan to use the 4L60 with the LS1.

I am also considering keeping the 327 (matching #) and installing an Edelbrock EFI with RPM heads. The final cost is going to be about the same probably but I would still have the original engine in it. But sometimes I dont think originality is all its cracked up to be. You cannot beat todays technology but todays styling is another story!

Keep posting any advice/ideas. They are most welcome!

69speed
05-23-2005, 11:57 AM
My engine is a 2000 model that had just a single line on the rail. I chose modified fuel rails so the return line leaves the rail instead of the fuel filter. The idea is that the fuel entering the intake is cooler therefore gives a slight performance gain. Certainly one area someone could save some money vs. my way. However, I'm sure it will be cheaper for me to get a new fuel filter.:)

trapin
05-24-2005, 09:58 AM
Why do you need to purchase a $1000 radiator and a $1000 fuel tank with an internal pump? Are these absolutely necessary or did you buy them because you wanted them? I'm only asking because I am also playing around with the idea of going Gen III or IV in my '68 when the time comes.

Rybar
05-24-2005, 11:08 AM
Why do you need to purchase a $1000 radiator and a $1000 fuel tank with an internal pump? Are these absolutely necessary or did you buy them because you wanted them? I'm only asking because I am also playing around with the idea of going Gen III or IV in my '68 when the time comes.

You don't have to, it's more or less how clean you want your install to be. I was in your shoes as well a few months back, and decided on the Ron Davis custom rad and Rick's Hot Rod tank. I felt spending the extra $$$ would be worth it in the long run.

You can use your stock 4th gen LS1 rad/fans and you can modify a stock tank like this: http://www.thedetailzone.com/Tanks%20Fuel%20Pump%20Install.htm

I guess it depends on your budget and preference.

Moose
05-24-2005, 01:00 PM
how about the speedometer? how did you guys get that to work since its electronic??


I plan on a LS1 swap in the future, but I also plan on replacing my guages with the covan, autometer gauges in the next month..

Mike

Rybar
05-24-2005, 03:57 PM
I Had John at www.speartech.com modify my stock harness and tune. He provides wires for the gauges.

Other places you can try for aftermarket harnesses: www.hotrodlane.cc (Street & Performance) or you can try the painless harness.

powermetal
07-18-2005, 04:36 PM
I have an LS1 in my '69. I chose to have the subframe modified to make room for the low-mounted A/C compressor instead of the aftermarket serpentine setup. Mostly it was because I plan to run a supercharger in the future and I wasn't sure if they would work with the aftermarket accessories. I think it is a little cleaner looking to have the compressor out of sight, but the shiney aftermarket stuff looks way cool, so that's probably a toss up.

I've attached a pic of my subframe after it was modified to make room for the compressor. If you go with an LS1, be sure to set it as far back toward the firewall as possible. This will help with handling, weight transfer, and also leave you some room between the throttle body and radiator for some kind of air intake if you are so inclined. I don't know where the Street and Performance motor mount adapters end up placing the motor, but I seem to recall the BRP mounts leaving the motor sitting pretty high and not so far back.

I also had my oil pan modified, but the stock F-body pan would actually have fit my car since I went with rack and pinion steering and wouldn't need to leave room for the stock steering components.

If you go with fuel injection, I don't think you'll ever go back.

Steve

Steve1968LS2
07-27-2005, 11:34 AM
69speed, why did yo need modified fuel rails?

He didn't.. sound like this was the reccomendation of Speed and Performance (same line they gave me)..

Use the 2000 Camaro fuel rail.. run a 99+ vette filter regulator near the tank. you can return from this to the tank and just run one line up to the motor. Also, if you get your vette reg from GM it is a lot cheaper than from S&P.

You also don't NEED a fancy radiator or fan setup.. several people here have used OEM radiators and either a Mark VIII fan or the dual fans that come on 4th gen fbods.. just takes more work :)

You can also have your factory tank baffled and sumped for EFI..

But he is right that there are hidden costs with putting in an LS1 but the results are well worth it!

scogin918
07-27-2005, 03:46 PM
ditto on the BRP mounts. The motor sat at least 4" from the firewall. We welded the stock pedestals to the back of the crossmember and made a pocket for the A/C compressor. This put the #1 spark plug even with the center of the upper ball joint. the shifter is now in the perfect spot. Just cut the metal around the original hole and flip it around 180 degrees. remember, nothing with these cars is ever "bolt-in", but it sure is worth it when it is done.

73z-6sp
07-27-2005, 09:59 PM
Thanks to everyone for the info. I actually have decided that I am going with the Ram Jet 350 for this build. I know some people may think it is a waste of time but I think for my first run at FI it will be a learning experience without all the obstacles associated with the LS1 swap. (Still obstacles.. I know)

I look forward to it. The numbers for the Ram Jet are still impressive. Not as good as an LS1 perhaps... but....

Thanks again for the advice.

Steve1968LS2
07-28-2005, 08:24 AM
Thanks to everyone for the info. I actually have decided that I am going with the Ram Jet 350 for this build. I know some people may think it is a waste of time but I think for my first run at FI it will be a learning experience without all the obstacles associated with the LS1 swap. (Still obstacles.. I know)

I look forward to it. The numbers for the Ram Jet are still impressive. Not as good as an LS1 perhaps... but....

Thanks again for the advice.

Well to be honest I found the LS1 install surprisingly easy.. and with the ram jet you will still need to modify the fuel system and such.

But hey.. good luck with the project and keep us in the loop! :icon996:

73z-6sp
07-28-2005, 11:08 PM
Another question. I am trying to decide the best way to run the fuel lines. Do I run braided hose for both lines, run hard lines or both braided and hard? If I use hard lines, what is the best material to use for that? I assume you cannot use the stock fuel line as a supply or return line? I'm still learning so forgive my ignorant questions. I did search, but nothing that I was hoping for showed up. I have the capabilites of bending all new lines if I need to. Just not sure the best way of connecting the hard line to the soft lines.

Steve68
07-29-2005, 03:24 AM
Thanks for the info guys, I too am planning to go with a LS1, maybe sooner than later I do have a 383 Mini Ram motor but I like the compactness of the LS series motors, Powermetal, what did you modify the other side of the subframe for?? and what kind of subframe is that? are those two ears in the rear? How much do you need to clearance it for the A/C compressor? I was going to sump the rear tank with a external pump, and hard lines, to and from, all info is great keep them coming!!!! Steve

What about headers, LS6 headers as good as short tubes, And I'm in FL gotta have AIR!!!!!

Mark Smith
07-29-2005, 04:48 PM
i to am in the process of installing a ls1 in a 69 camaro.i modified my frame to accomadate the stock acc.also made my own motor mounts,really not that hard.probably going with the vette set up so i can use my stock rails.also from fl definetly will need a/c.i think the easiest way to figure how much frame to remove is set engine in bay and just look at it.moved mine back as far as poss. without having to move stock engine brackets.rear of motor sits about 2 inches away from fire wall.for headers i'm looking at the stainless works pipes for first gen camaro firebird.kind of picey but they are long tube and should help horsepower?

SatisTraction
07-29-2005, 05:00 PM
you better read up on those headers. i think they only fit a rack and pinion conversion, but i may be wrong. I bought a new set of pace setter long tubes and modified the front two drivers side tubes. they fit with my factory power steering :) and only cost me about $300

SatisTraction
07-29-2005, 05:03 PM
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=329889

powermetal
08-03-2005, 09:58 AM
Steve68-

My subframe is the stock subframe that came with the car, just modified for the LS1 and rack and pinion steering. I went with the BRP steering kit that uses a stock 4th-gen F-body rack. The other side of the subframe is modified to make room for the steering shaft to connect to the rack. The shaft runs through that channel that was created. I two ears in the rear are the motor mounts. My car uses the stock Vette perches and pads. I really like that setup. The pocket that was created to make room for the A/C compressor is pretty big. Once the hole was cut, the subframe was welded up on the inside everywhere that could be reached, and the hole was boxed in. I planned on using the stock GM A/C compressor, but it turns out that a Sanden unit actually works better with my A/C system so that's what I have now, and it is smaller than the stock compressor.

I also went with a Rock Valley tank. I can't think of a fuel-injected car made today that has an external pump, so there must be something to it. I have a Vette fuel filter/pressure regulator, so I have one hard line run to the motor. The final two feet or so of the line is the stock braided piece.

Since my motor sits so low in the subframe and my car is also lowered, I was concerned about long tube headers hanging down too low. My car is a street car and I want to be able to drive over speed bumps etc without dragging. I chose Mac mid-length headers and am very pleased with them. I have a stock '02 LS1 except for the headers, and it made 337 rear-wheel horsepower and 347 lb/ft of torque.

Steve

Steve68
08-03-2005, 11:44 AM
Steve,
As soon as you mentioned R&P, I knew what the ears were for, do you have any pics with engine in place, and which model sanden compresser, I too have factory air, I was just looking at the space you created, the driver side must be for the headers,

I'm going to have to go with the Vette reg deal, one line and clean,

I like headers but stock manifolds are supposed to work well' I think LS6 it's on LS1 tech site, Thanks for a ton of info, Steve

zman1969
08-04-2005, 07:55 AM
you better read up on those headers. i think they only fit a rack and pinion conversion, but i may be wrong. I bought a new set of pace setter long tubes and modified the front two drivers side tubes. they fit with my factory power steering :) and only cost me about $300
when you order those stainless headers they offer them with or without the BRP mod just FYI