What is it with forum mentalities these days?

[DarkBuddha]

First, I have to say that this doesn't apply to my experience here on pro-touring.com, but it has sure enough been true about several others recently.

I used to like forums... free exchange of information, great places for open discussion, great places to learn of new and cool stuff, great places to bs and call bs, great places to connect with like minded enthusiasts. But things have sure changed.

There are forums I used to belong to but stopped participating so actively because of either waning interest, corporatization, over-growth, or too many trolls. But others, I simply found myself quitting because the mentality of participants and moderators has become so constraining, suppressive, and censoring. On some forums, I've personally had posts and threads edited, closed, or deleted without violating one single term of service... no foul language, no name calling, no threats, no insults, no liable. Sometimes it was for some off-hand quip or sarcastic comment, or for supporting someone else's points. Sometimes it was for mentioning a competing/alternative solution or supplier. Sometimes it was simply for challenging the statements or views of another member or a moderator for support and/or evidence, just like we do in the real, non-interwebs world.

But instead of simply stepping up and dealing with the issues, members complain of "unfriendliness" and moderators shut it down. And I find that kind of censorship simply unacceptable, so I just quit the forum. But I'm left wondering WTF happened to open discussion, calling bs, and exchanging information freely. My only guess is that it comes from concerns about legal implications, profitability, sponsorship responsibility, etc. Of course, maybe I really am that much of a jerk? I suppose it could be, but I don't thing so.

Anyone else seeing this trend?

[sniper]

You willingly "join" a forum. So there is no such thing a "freedom of speech". There is no right to not be sensored. You are at the whim of the moderators and the owner of the board. It is as simple as that.

One persons discussion or opinion is another person's personal attack.

Troll these forums with this in mind. It's just the internet.

[DarkBuddha]

You are right, of course, but that doesn't make it right. But it is all optional, and I have recently found myself opting-out more and more. Probably for the best since it is time and energy better spent on better pursuits and endeavors.

[Mathius]

You are right, of course, but that doesn't make it right. But it is all optional, and I have recently found myself opting-out more and more. Probably for the best since it is time and energy better spent on better pursuits and endeavors.

Sniper is correct, but I also agree with the sentiment you are expressing. Personally I think even foul language or name calling isn't really grounds to just close a thread.

I work construction and if we closed down a job every time someone said something offensive, you guys wouldn't have houses to live in.

But to me, if someone is making a constructive argument and at least attempting to make an intelligent argument, I don't really care what language they use. And if they get upset and call someone a name.. fine, let it slide as long as the thread itself doesn't just degenerate into name calling. Lots of people make slips. Give a warning if you think it's getting out of hand.

But then most people misinterpret what I say on the internet because of my choice of language and to be honest, I don't care to change. That's who I am, and how I talk, and if you're going to discount the ideas that I have because you don't like the way I express them, then I think you're a close-minded individual and I have nothing to say to you anyways.

I agree with what you're saying and I have had several instances where I just have to avoid certain boards. It's disappointing because I enjoy those hobbies and like to discuss those things, but I can't do it within the confines of what the people on the board perceive as "acceptable behavior".

Some boards will not tolerate simple arguing whether it be "clean language" or not. I don't think anyone ever learned anything knew with having a debate or argument, personally.

Mathius

[LateNight72]

This is one of the reasons my old ritual of 15 forums dropped to 2. Mostly though, it was do to idiots and newbies taking over the forums.

[DartorDemon]

You willingly "join" a forum. So there is no such thing a "freedom of speech". There is no right to not be sensored. You are at the whim of the moderators and the owner of the board. It is as simple as that.

One persons discussion or opinion is another person's personal attack.

Troll these forums with this in mind. It's just the internet.

It seems so ironic when an american forum doesnt respect the freedom of speech.

[Mr. Anderson]

I see threads deleted often on other boards and there is usually a reason for it. What annoys me is when one thread gets deleted while another that is just as bad or worse stays. But I'm not paying the bills so how can I complain?

One of the forums I'm on I've been a member for almost 8 years. It used to be great but now there are so many new members posting a bunch of useless crap that it's too hard to wade through and find a good post. I don't post nearly as often as I used to, and I cringe when I hear someone else talking about the board because it's almost an embarrassment.

On the other hand, I'm a newbie here and there are plenty of well established members. But being new, most the time I feel like I'm talking to myself. I accept that and if it ever becomes a problem, all I have to do is walk away.

A third forum I'm on is just starting out but is one of the best I've been a part of. It's great to get in when the place is new.

[DarkBuddha]

It's great to get in when the place is new.
Ain't that the truth. In my experience, it seems that as membership grows and forums become more popular (successful?), then the relative liberty of the place tends to diminish. And eventually, if you're involved in it long enough, things start to get repetitive... same questions, same answers, same politics, same points of view... and that just causes it to become reinforced and further supported, which means it becomes less tolerant of criticism, challenge, and change. The exceptions are places like this, where pushing the envelope and the boundaries is part of the core of the style and enthusiasm. Thank goodness!

[ZZ430]

I understand exactly how you feel.

My wife and I own a forum that has been going for just over 2 years now. We have set up the censor feature that takes care of the 4-letter words and other phrases my wife doesn't want to see.

They don't bother me, but....well, you get the picture.

It's no different than inviting people to your house and making them "obey the rules".

If someone breaks whatever rules are established, they are asked to leave.

Admin and the mods have a tough job being consistant in their judgments and and at the same time trying be fair to everyone.

Locking threads and deleting posts is a good way to upset people.

[PT Sportwagon]

I know in another forum I regularly post on, there was a post on a supporting companies lack of product. It seemed like the content and conversation was civil. But seems that it upset some one and the thread vanished.

Tim

[DartorDemon]

I know in another forum I regularly post on, there was a post on a supporting companies lack of product. It seemed like the content and conversation was civil. But seems that it upset some one and the thread vanished.

Tim

I know a large forum that delete's threads about company's products when that company does not contribute to the site...and people wonder why the truck's aftermarket went nowhere. :spank2:

[sik68]

This thread is kinda funny, being reminiscent and talking about the good ol' days of the Internet. Of all things to be nostalgic about, it shouldn't be the the web.

[JJEH]

You guys never joined a german us-car borad...

Some of the us-car owners here only think about themselfs. Like, "i have a V8 engine - so my balls are bigger than yours"...

Some of them are really stupid, like "i wanna have more horsepower"... of the question what about the suspension, brakes, transmission, rear axle,... and so on you got an answer like "i don't need this because i'm a really good driver"...

Well... and that's only the tip of the iceberg...

I posted in the 2 biggest german us-car boards a "reminder" to what happened on Sep. 11th...

Just a reminder, no discussion. I told them, if they wanna discuss about it (what's pointless), so they should open a new thread. Guess what? They don't give a f**k what you want... they use your thread to share their c**p...

I really don't know what happened to german people they drive american cars and join a us-car board...

But most answeres are like "americans are st***d, fat, not well educated, think everything that shows in TV, blaaaah..."

And btw, the goverment did it!

Oh, almost forgot... the main topic here is "american way of life an drive", but honestly most people don't give a $**t...

Most of them are jealous... that's it!

I'm tired of this... I quit one of the 2 boards!

Why I tell you guys this?

Because you don't know how good your car boards are!!!

[MrQuick]

Its the new guys Wyatt,
most think this is your average web site where feelings and egos play priority but you'll notice that as they hang out more and get use to names they get that this is an information site.

Thats why I was so against a political sections here.
I don't give a flying tart what ideals you support or what god flag you fly. It gets way too personal when stuff like that gets tossed around. We may not agree on stuff like that but we do agree that pro-touring is our interest.

Its sad that someone might not listen to your advise cause of your political stand.

I had to take a year break cause of a few a holes that followed me around just to bash but they are gone and i'm still here. f-em

vince

[MrQuick]

amen Jochen
.... but what the hell is this word?? Its like filthy mouth Jepordy....can I buy a vowel? haa haaa j/k

But most answeres are like "americans are st***d, fat, not well educated, think everything that shows in TV, blaaaah..."

[LateNight72]

amen Jochen
.... but what the hell is this word?? Its like filthy mouth Jepordy....can I buy a vowel? haa haaa j/k
Phone a friend damnit...




(stupid)

[MrQuick]

LOL, wait, can you do that on Jeprody? haaa j/k

stupid is blocked?

[DartorDemon]

Phone a friend damnit...




(stupid)

sounds like a typical american gameshow:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[JJEH]

LOL, may she never saw the moon...

No, st***d is not blocked... but I try to keep my language "nice" :spank2:

[MrQuick]

Haa haaaa

[LateNight72]

LOL, wait, can you do that on Jeprody? haaa j/k

stupid is blocked?
lol. no. can't buy letters either though... :lol:

[DarkBuddha]

After a good night's sleep, I kinda think part of my problem is actually me... or more specifically, my problem is my lack of tolerance for inane crap, unsupported assertions, repetitive bs, and unnecessary political correctness. I consider myself fairly civil, fair minded, and even polite most times, but I also find myself less and less interested in holding newbies' hands and walking on eggshells while I explain to someone the gaping holes in their POV or assertions. I'd rather just cut to the chase and get to the point and skip the drivel and fake lol.

Basically, my recent brush with untimely demise has got me thinking a bit differently, and maybe a bit more clearly.

[Tony_SS]

It seems so ironic when an american forum doesnt respect the freedom of speech.

Come into my house, you have the freedom to say whatever you want. And I have to right to remove you from my property. Guess who wins. :)

It's not an issue of freedom of speech. It's about private property rights when it comes to forums.

[vintageracer]

It is my observation that marque specific or subject specific discussion boards that sensor posts, delete posts and ban posters as a regular part of board activity to "control" the board to meet the goals and morals of the board owner tend to fullfill their apparent and ultimate goal of a VERY small group of friends being the remaining members.

Editing or deleting posts and banning members from boards for their views kills a board. I have watched numerous "boards" that were great sources of information DIE a slow death because of the moderators/owners selective enforcement of the ever changing board rules.

In the end it all really takes care of itself as these boards just go away or become another insignificant part of the web.

[John Wright]

I had to take a year break cause of a few a holes that followed me around just to bash but they are gone and i'm still here. f-em

vinceI quit participating on a car forum because of two mods who constantly followed me from thread to thread making comments on every post I made due to their particular leaning politically and religiously....shame too, I liked it over there, but enough is enough, I had to move on. So far folks over here seem to understand where I stand and it doesn't interfere, at least not that I'm aware of. I'm a mod on a welding forum and it isn't easy trying to be fair and monitor the board equally and still let people have some freedom to speak their mind on issues. I feel like the mods over here are pretty good at keeping the peace.

[Tony_SS]

I feel like the mods over here are pretty good at keeping the peace.

I agree.. good system and good people here. Plus PT is one of my favorite concepts in the automotive world.

[twosaturns]

there are so many car forums (and others obviously) because of people getting upset, 'I'm going to take my ball and go home' thinking.
some forums 'jump the shark' and aren't relevant anymore. saturnfans.com used to be the premier saturn site for information and only a little performance; all the ricer wannabes went to some other forums fortunately. but lately saturnfans has been inundated w/ idiots (which parallels more saturns being available in the cheap used car market)
how many times can you read posts like "yo, ima gonna turbo this n getta bodykit and tite system, yo but moneis tite rite now, as soon as i get outta school and getta job.
bobistheoilguy.com is very heavy handed w/ the censorship and shutting threads down. that gets tiring, as well as the people who will defend their oil choice TO THE DEATH.
mazda247.com is everything; if you are on the mazda3 or protege section, its all turbos and ricers and text-speak, but on the mazda5 section, we are all trying to figure out the best roof rack!
anyway, if you don't like a site, just stop going to it. it's pointless to try to change anonymous idiots.

remember, arguing on the internet is like the special Olympics; even if you win you're still a retard.

[cheapthrillz]

Wait a minute guys.... pro-touring.com isn't the only forum on the interweb?

THERE ARE OTHERS!!!!????!!!!?????!!!!?????

[Steve Firebird]

I left a forum a while back because they seemed to have a few bullies that the mods protected because they were buddies. They would gang up on one person and just rip him apart. I called them out on it one day and got scolded by a mod. I was stirring the pot apparently. I went back later and the atmosphere is much nicer now. I think the owner of the forum figured out what was going on and put a stop to it.

[shortrack]

Im one the the original members of the largest offshore powerboating website in the world, founded back in 2000 www.offshoreonly.com .....us "old guys" have found after all those years and thousands of members theres very rarely a topic that comes up that hasnt been covered then re hashed then re hashed again.....its like...."dude, I know your new but....use the search button....."

The anomaly of speaking to people all over the world on a daily basis has become sort of "normal".....Of course theres always the latest and the greatest to cover, race coverage and who passed out in a garbage can but its just not as wide open as it used to be....Its sorta' like rock and roll in the early 60s compared to today......back then everything was wide open and everything you did was new.

This topic incedentally has been rehashed several times over there too lol......the concensus is that in the end any site is all about the members :smoke:

[sniper]

It seems so ironic when an american forum doesnt respect the freedom of speech.
It's already been said but again, Freedom of speech has to do with the government shutting you up. There is no such thing in a private settting.

"old guys" have found after all those years and thousands of members theres very rarely a topic that comes up that hasnt been covered then re hashed then re hashed again.....its like...."dude, I know your new but....use the search button....."

This is a problem as well. And the problem is with the "not new" members.
#1 The search button unless you put in something real specific can bring up thousands of threads.

#2 How many times do you see someone use hte search and they comment on a thread that is 5 years old. They get bashed for bringing up such an old thread.

#3 You do not have to answer a question. No one is forcing you to answer a question that has been asked a thousand times. Just because something is obvious to you, does not make it so for everyone else.

[camcojb]

I'm a mod on other sites, and I've always tried to send a quick pm if I edit or remove a post or thread as to why it was done. The exception is when I have to do a clean up, say someone is over the line rules-wise and I have to remove all the people who responded with "quotes" to get rid of the offending statement from the one guy. Usually people figure out why they were removed at that point, just got caught in the clean up, they did not do anything wrong.

If I did that to you I apologize............... :)

Jody

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/09/tumblr_l8aokjZeGa1qbu7b0o1_500-1.jpg

[DartorDemon]

Come into my house, you have the freedom to say whatever you want. And I have to right to remove you from my property. Guess who wins. :)

It's not an issue of freedom of speech. It's about private property rights when it comes to forums.

Well if they wanna bitch about "private property rights" then they have no business operating a public forum. :spank2:

[LateNight72]

Well if they wanna bitch about "private property rights" then they have no business operating a public forum. :spank2:
Forums are not "public"

[ZZ430]

A privately owned forum is not a democracy, it's a dictatorship.

I'm so glad there are forums like PT where we can have these discussions.

[Tony_SS]

Well if they wanna bitch about "private property rights" then they have no business operating a public forum. :spank2:

Who's doing that?

Like Todd said, forums are not public. A membership is a privilege, not a right.

[DartorDemon]

Forums are not "public"

really, so you had to pay to post here?

Yes i get that each forum has their little set of rules, but unless you pay, these are forums that are open to anyone and are essentially public. And sure, the moderator can, and will boot you, but does that mean its right? no

Some of the best forums i've posted at are ones that support freedom of expression.

[LateNight72]

really, so you had to pay to post here?

Yes i get that each forum has their little set of rules, but unless you pay, these are forums that are open to anyone and are essentially public. And sure, the moderator can, and will boot you, but does that mean its right? no

Some of the best forums i've posted at are ones that support freedom of expression.
Are you serious with the thought that, unless you pay for something, it's "public"? I'm not going to explain it, since I should be writing a paper for class tonight (lol). Maybe someone else can.

[Steve68]

Try a VW forum, yikes, I made 1 post got ripped apart by some foreign college kid, I sat back and took it watched all the other punks jump on his waggon, watch some older members try to keep the ruckus down, something happened and the I let it fly, it was like pissing all over there cars in public, right then and there I had the older members on my side,

Then they explained how the membership was down since these guys enjoyed tearing everyone up so much,

this is a great forum, enjoy it!!!

[DartorDemon]

Are you serious with the thought that, unless you pay for something, it's "public"? I'm not going to explain it, since I should be writing a paper for class tonight (lol). Maybe someone else can.

In the case of internet forums, yes.

[parsonsj]

DartorDemon, you're simply wrong about this forum being public. Only members may post. You signed up, and we (mods/admin) permitted your signup to go through. Because that was an easy process doesn't make it public. You've got a userid and you have to sign in each time you post (though most of us allow our home computer to do that for us).

Hope that clarifies the situation.

jp

[John Wright]

DartorDemon, you're simply wrong about this forum being public. You signed up, and we (mods/admin) permitted your signup to go through. Because that was an easy process doesn't make it public. You've got a userid and you have to sign in each time you post (though most of us allow our home computer to do that for us).

Hope that clarifies the situation.

jpYup, google ... "Forums are not public"

Lots of hits, even court cases on the subject.

Although, in a manner of speaking it is public in the sense that what you write can be read by all(unless written in a password protected area of the forum)....you can google any post or phrase written in the un-protected areas of the forum and you can find your words, as written. Just a thought, be careful what you write, you never know who is reading.


edit: case in point:
http://search.aol.com/aol/search?s_it=topsearchbox.search&v_t=keyword_rollover&q=What+is+it+with+forum+mentalities+these+days%3F+ First%2C+I+have+to+say+that+this+doesn%27t+apply+t o+my+experience+here+on+pro-touring.com%2C+but+it+has+sure+enough+been+true+ab out+several+others+recently.I+used+to+like+forums. ..+free+exchange+of+information%2C+great+places+fo r+open+discussion%2C+great+places+to+learn+of+new+ and+cool+stuff%2C+great+places+to+bs+and+call+bs%2 C+great+places+to+connect+with+like+minded+enthusi asts.+But+things+have+sure+changed.

[LateNight72]

Try a VW forum, yikes, I made 1 post got ripped apart by some foreign college kid, I sat back and took it watched all the other punks jump on his waggon, watch some older members try to keep the ruckus down, something happened and the I let it fly, it was like pissing all over there cars in public, right then and there I had the older members on my side,

Then they explained how the membership was down since these guys enjoyed tearing everyone up so much,

this is a great forum, enjoy it!!!
Vortex? Kind of a joke there...

[DartorDemon]

DartorDemon, you're simply wrong about this forum being public. Only members may post. You signed up, and we (mods/admin) permitted your signup to go through. Because that was an easy process doesn't make it public. You've got a userid and you have to sign in each time you post (though most of us allow our home computer to do that for us).

Hope that clarifies the situation.

jp


And That's where we disagree especially when "membership" at a forum is no more of a membership then a "membership" at a public library.(no offense, just the nature of internet forums)

What is currently done and what is right are two different things.

[twosaturns]

really, so you had to pay to post here?

Yes i get that each forum has their little set of rules, but unless you pay, these are forums that are open to anyone and are essentially public. And sure, the moderator can, and will boot you, but does that mean its right? no

Some of the best forums i've posted at are ones that support freedom of expression.
I don't get your assertion. what does cost have to do with it?
'freedom of expression' is a myth, a fallacy.
you can't stand up in class and tell the teacher F you.
you can't yell fire in a movie theater.
you can't say you're going to kill the president.
you can't eat pork in a synagogue.
you can't draw cartoons of muhammed (or however the fcuk you spell it)
you can't send white powder in an envelope to members of congress.
you can't run across the field during a baseball game.

and you can't go against the rules on an internet forum.

get over yourself.

[parsonsj]

That's where we disagree especially when "membership" at a forum is no more of a membership then a "membership" at a public library.(no offense, just the nature of internet forums)I would assert you would be asked to leave a public library if you caused a disruption by speaking anything you wanted. In fact, if you continued to disrupt the public library and refused to leave, the police would likely be called to forcibly remove you. You might even face "public nuisance" charges and be asked to surrender your library card.

jp

[ErikLS2]

I don't get your assertion. what does cost have to do with it?
'freedom of expression' is a myth, a fallacy.
you can't stand up in class and tell the teacher F you.
you can't yell fire in a movie theater.
you can't say you're going to kill the president.
you can't eat pork in a synagogue.
you can't draw cartoons of muhammed (or however the fcuk you spell it)
you can't send white powder in an envelope to members of congress.
you can't run across the field during a baseball game.

and you can't go against the rules on an internet forum.

get over yourself.


I'm sorry but you are wrong about these, I do know what you're saying though. Anyone CAN do any of these things at will. But, there are consequences to their actions.

God forbid a society, much less an internet forum which supports a hobby, exists where people (adults no less) are responsible for their own actions. What is the world coming to ????????

[Mathius]

I know a large forum that delete's threads about company's products when that company does not contribute to the site...and people wonder why the truck's aftermarket went nowhere. :spank2:

Most forums are like this because the existing sponsors require it. It's an ugly contradiction and just another way for a big company to grab someone by the balls.



Admin and the mods have a tough job being consistant in their judgments and and at the same time trying be fair to everyone.

Locking threads and deleting posts is a good way to upset people.

I've been on boards where administrator's and mods claim it's not a job because they don't get paid, so they don't have a responsibility to make people happy.

I think that's about as retarded as it gets, because nobody is forcing them to become a moderator. They chose to take on the responsibility and they knew they wouldn't be paid when they took the position. If you say you're going to do something, then do it.

Don't just take the position to make yourself feel important. The ones that abuse it really annoy me. Especially the ones who will take part in a discussion and get all heavy handed with someone in an argument. I've seen moderators who will deliberately post their own opinions and then lock a thread. I've even seen it here several times by at least two different mods.

I think the best moderators and admins are the ones who step in only when it's completely necessary.



Editing or deleting posts and banning members from boards for their views kills a board. I have watched numerous "boards" that were great sources of information DIE a slow death because of the moderators/owners selective enforcement of the ever changing board rules.


And that's the irony of it all. They can be as private as they want to, but a message board is only as good as its members. If they want to be nazi's about what you can and can't do, then we don't have to sign up or post.


I'm sorry but you are wrong about these, I do know what you're saying though. Anyone CAN do any of these things at will. But, there are consequences to their actions.

That's the most important lesson you can learn in life and something that most people just don't get, especially these people saying you can't do something.

You can do WHATEVER you want to. ANYTHING you want to do that's physically possible, as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences of your actions.

It's the most important lesson you'll ever learn in life. Remember it people.
Mathius

[DarkBuddha]

Pick your dictionary... forums are intended to be open and public on a fundamental level:

fo·rum (fôrm, fr-)
n. pl. fo·rums also fo·ra (fôr, fr)
1.
a. The public squareor marketplace of an ancient Roman city that was the assembly place for judicial activity and public business.
b. A public meeting place for open discussion.
c. A medium for open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper, a radio or television program, or a website.
2. A public meeting or presentationinvolving a discussion usually among experts and often including audience participation.
3. A court of law; a tribunal.

But all that aside, even if forums aren't public in the proper sense, I think it's pretty lame when forum members and moderators become so thin skinned or touchy about supporting their position that they can't handle some criticism or challenge. I'm not saying they need to tolerate being bullied, but they should be willing (if not able) to stand their ground.

[DartorDemon]

I don't get your assertion. what does cost have to do with it?
'freedom of expression' is a myth, a fallacy.
you can't stand up in class and tell the teacher F you.
you can't yell fire in a movie theater.
you can't say you're going to kill the president.
you can't eat pork in a synagogue.
you can't draw cartoons of muhammed (or however the fcuk you spell it)
you can't send white powder in an envelope to members of congress.
you can't run across the field during a baseball game.

and you can't go against the rules on an internet forum.

get over yourself.

LOL!, Legally most of those things can be done. I cant eat pork in a synagogue? I don't see the point, but you very well could.

You can draw muhammed, and i encourage everyone to do so. Screw those wackjobs.

falsely yelling Fire in a movie theatre, thats reasonable because it can lead to someone dying. Same goes for the president

baseball game: private even where you need to pay to get in.

Tell the teacher 'F you", yeah you can do that. Might get dropped from the class, but you have the freedom to do so if the need arises.

Parson- it would be a sad day in america if i got kicked out of a public building for merely saying what i thought. But, i think what you're talking about amounts to harrasing people. Thats different from freely expressing yourself. Even if today so many people want to conjoin the two so they don't have to hear anything offensive. :nopity:

[Tony_SS]

And That's where we disagree especially when "membership" at a forum is no more of a membership then a "membership" at a public library.(no offense, just the nature of internet forums)

What is currently done and what is right are two different things.

A library is public because the public pays for it. A forum is private because an individual pays for it.

You have a right to a library card. You don't have a right to membership here.

Take for example, if I have a farm. Just because you have access to walk on my land does not give you any right to say or do as you please on my property.

[critter]

I followed this thread with some interest. Many of these are the same arguments I've heard before. I'm a moderator on one forum and the administrator of another.

I've seen poorly administered forums and agree that shutting down the free flow of ideas is never good. I also agree that the best moderators are the ones that wait to step in until it is absolutely necessary.

But before any of you criticize too much, remember that most moderators in the good forums are not paid and do take a great deal of grief for trying to help the hobby they love. They may not get it right every time but at least they're doing something. Leadership at any level should be appreciated and respected even if you disagree with it.

[406 Q-ship]

Tony got the difference between the library and an internet forum right.

You signed up and OK to the agreement of the forum which gives the right to the moderators , to censor, edit, or ban.

You can eat pork in a synagogue, you will be asked to leave then quite possible tossed out by the local constabulary. Synagogue while open to the public is still private property and the owners/agents can toss your butt to the curb.

I hear what you are saying Demon and don't disagree completely with what you are saying but it is still up to the owner and mods on a forum. How you and another would run any forum is never going to equal.

[Tony_SS]

Pick your dictionary... forums are intended to be open and public on a fundamental level:

fo·rum (fôrm, fr-)
n. pl. fo·rums also fo·ra (fôr, fr)
1.
a. The public squareor marketplace of an ancient Roman city that was the assembly place for judicial activity and public business.
b. A public meeting place for open discussion.
c. A medium for open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper, a radio or television program, or a website.
2. A public meeting or presentationinvolving a discussion usually among experts and often including audience participation.
3. A court of law; a tribunal.


A forum is just a place for dialog. It can be on public or private property. It was not intended for either specific one.

[michael6372]

So, what do you consider absolutely neccessary when it comes to stepping in? I agree to letting people express themselves and voicing their opinions etc. so where do you draw the line without turning people off to your forum?

When we sign up for a forum, don't we have to agree to the terms and conditions of the forum?

I don't think there's anything wrong with a good debate, discussion even arguments at times as long as they don't get personal but, if you are going to attack someone then, I think that's crossing the line and something should be done.

We join a forum to interact with people that are interested in the same things we are, to meet new people and learn more about the hobby. There will always be different opinions, you can't please everyone all the time but, by having some simple ground rules and sticking to them, everyone will know where they stand going in. If they choose to not go along with the rules, then they should not have the privilege to be a part of the forum.

But what do I know??

Sorry for rambling on...

Michael.

[Mathius]

So, what do you consider absolutely neccessary when it comes to stepping in? I agree to letting people express themselves and voicing their opinions etc. so where do you draw the line without turning people off to your forum?

When we sign up for a forum, don't we have to agree to the terms and conditions of the forum?

I can't speak for everyone, but I think the ToS on most boards are just generic content that's listed everywhere, and I also think they're overboard. I adhere to them because I have to, not because I agree with them.


I don't think there's anything wrong with a good debate, discussion even arguments at times as long as they don't get personal but, if you are going to attack someone then, I think that's crossing the line and something should be done.


See here's a few things.. #1, you don't HAVE to post here. Nobody is requiring you to do so. If someone attacks you, you can stand up for yourself, choose to not respond at all, or hope a moderator will bail you out. The old, lead, follow, or get out of the way.

That's the way the real world works as well. You must be in the US, because you share the same sense of entitlement that everyone else has, that everyone has to be tolerant and you have a right to not be offended.

Second, and more importantly.... your definition of an attack and mine are two different things. If you look at the recent Megan Fox thread, several people in the thread acted like I was getting upset, when I was not angry in the least. In fact my responses to that thread took place over several days because it just wasn't a big priority for me to respond.

This is a text based message board. When you take it upon yourself to interpret what someone else says and then act against them based on it, you're being pretty arrogant, IMO. You don't have the benefit of my body language, facial expressions, voice inflections, etc. You don't know me from Adam. But you decided I attacked you?

I'm offended all the time by people who are using perfectly normal, everyday wording. I don't buy the fact that by using swear words or insults that you're saying anything more or less offensive.

I've met people who irritate the piss out of me just because they take the argument into circles and you're constantly repeating yourself, or people who misinterpret everything you say so that you're constantly on the defensive because you have to explain yourself. They're still perfectly within the ToS, but they're still offending me, and it's still more or less an attack.

If I say to you, "I think you're wrong, my experience tells me otherwise." You're ok with that, but if I say to you, "You don't have a clue what you're talking about and I can prove it!" You get offended. But they both more or less mean the same thing.

When should a moderator step in? IMO, it's when there ceases to be any intelligent arguments and the discussion degenerates into name calling.

Again, I'm more interested in the content of what people are saying than how they're saying it. And that's not to say they're not going to upset me either, but that's part of life. That's just how the world is. I'm going to say some things that upset them too.

Mathius

[DarkBuddha]

Again, in my original post I explained that I've seen a trend where moderators are stepping in even when there has been no violation of the terms/conditions/rules of the forum. I'm talking about random situations where a conversation goes something like this:

(entirely fictitious, but totally plausible thread example)

newbie: "what's the best performance tire I can get?"
sumdumguy: "Bias ply tires are the best performance tire option out there."
newbie: "So where can I get bias ply tires, and what sizes are they available in?"
me: "I think that is a very broad statement but it may only apply to some very limited applications, and those applications are fairly rare, especially for most folks. Newbie, how ya gonna use the tire?"
sumdumguy: "I'm just saying that bias ply tires are the best performance tire you can get and I run them on my race car."
me: "But please explain why you think bias plys are the best choice for a performance tire, especially without knowing how newbie is gonna use the car."
sumdumguy: "Gosh, I didn't know this forum was full of such jerks... It doesn't matter how you use 'em, bias plys will be the best. I've used 'em for years on my race car, which I often drive on the street... only in the summer... never in the rain... to the local cruise spot 3 miles from my house... and they are awesome."
me: "Seriously? That's you're reasoning for suggesting bias plys? I'm not being a jerk... but I do think your suggestion is under-informed. I'd rather know what he's gonna use 'em for... regular street driving? Particular kind of racing? Do they need to meet sanctioning body requirements? Safety requirements? Etc.? But I suppose that maybe that stuff doesn't really matter, right?"
moderator: Ok, I'm closing this thread... thanks for letting me know sumdumguy."
Thread Closed!


This is exactly the kind of thing I've run into recently... no breaking of rules, but a little prod, a little jab, challenging his assertion and bam, I'm the bad guy and the thread is closed without resolving the question properly, thus allowing the next newbie to think bias plys are the choice tire for all performance applications. Sigh...

[DarkBuddha]

A forum is just a place for dialog. It can be on public or private property. It was not intended for either specific one.

Actually, etymologically, the origin of the word forum comes from the latin, literally meaning "what is out of doors". I'm sure some discussion could be given to whether the space outside of the doors of a private domicile was considered to be private or public space, but since it was used to refer to public gathering places specifically (such as marketplaces or public squares), I have to disagree with your analysis.

[nullshine]

Obviously a sweeping generalization, but I think it probably applies to some of the mods Wyatt is talking about. Hopefully I don't get banned now, lol!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/09/warriorforummoderator1-1.jpeg

[sniper]

^^^ Now that is funny. :lol


Just because this board is "OPEN" to the public, does not make it public property.

If you don't understand that this board is the property on a person or group of people then you'll never understand the logic behind moderating it.

[DarkBuddha]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/09/warriorforummoderator1-1.jpeg

Now that's funny... and sadly, probably too true sometimes.

[critter]

Done.

[DarkBuddha]

Just because this board is "OPEN" to the public, does not make it public property.

If you don't understand that this board is the property on a person or group of people then you'll never understand the logic behind moderating it.

But I think it's the principle of a "forum", which primarily relies on public participation for its existence in the first place, that I'm talking about, not the legal internet definition. As optional as it is to participate in a forum, forums that wish to remain purposeful do need members to do so. My point is that if a forum becomes over-managed by trigger happy owner/moderators, then they have undermined the principle of a "forum", whether it is legally private or public, no different than over-policing in the real world.

But perhaps discussing things in terms of principles is lost on anything borne of the internet, or at least on most users of the internet. Has it simply succumb to the usual political, judicial, legislative, consumer plague that has broken and enslaved the real world? Yeah... probably.



Done.

Uh oh, we hurt a mod's feelings... I think we must be tempting fate with having this thread closed too. Double uh oh!

[68Formula]

I believe and support freedom of speech. Which is why I find it disheartening when I hear people who also want to support it, mis-apply it use. It's nearly as bad as being against it.

The U.S. citizens on this forum have brothers and sisters risking (and sometimes losing) their lives to protect these rights. Respect them by learning the definition of those rights and when and when they apply.

Not only that, but you yourself cannot possibly expect to defend something that you yourself do not understand.

[DarkBuddha]

I believe and support freedom of speech. Which is why I find it disheartening when I hear people who also want to support it, mis-apply it use. It's nearly as bad as being against it.

The U.S. citizens on this forum have brothers and sisters risking (and sometimes losing) their lives to protect these rights. Respect them by learning the definition of those rights and when and when they apply.

Not only that, but you yourself cannot possibly expect to defend something that you yourself do not understand.

Could you be a bit more specific about where people have misapplied it within this thread? I ask because, while admirable and eloquent, your statement reads more like rhetoric than substantive criticism. The text of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America states:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

The judicial reading of the law is fairly broad in its scope, but certainly there is nothing I've specifically noted within the content of this thread that "misapplies" it in itself, though certainly some of it (including lots of stuff I've posted) seems a bit unworthy of the support of such an ideal as the First Amendment sought and continues to provide.

[68Formula]

But I think it's the principle of a "forum", which primarily relies on public participation for its existence in the first place, that I'm talking about, not the legal internet definition. As optional as it is to participate in a forum, forums that wish to remain purposeful do need members to do so. My point is that if a forum becomes over-managed by trigger happy owner/moderators, then they have undermined the principle of a "forum", whether it is legally private or public, no different than over-policing in the real world.

But perhaps discussing things in terms of principles is lost on anything borne of the internet, or at least on most users of the internet. Has it simply succumb to the usual political, judicial, legislative, consumer plague that has broken and enslaved the real world? Yeah... probably.


You're still trying to equate public rights to private forums. No one is enslaved by a forum. They can choose to leave at any time. As a member this is your control. If enough people exercise their right to leave, then the owner can choose whether or not to make changes to gain popularity back. That's the owners right. It's really just a business.

[parsonsj]

it would be a sad day in america if i got kicked out of a public building for merely saying what i thought. But, i think what you're talking about amounts to harrasing people. Thats different from freely expressing yourself. Even if today so many people want to conjoin the two so they don't have to hear anything offensive. I think most people believe that when they are in a public library, they can expect a quiet place to read and to study. If somebody feels they can ruin that sort of environment because they have "freedom of speech", they are indeed harassing others.

jp

[critter]

No, I misread, posted, realized my error and deleted what I posted. That's what mature people do. Now say something nice about moderators or I'll report this thread and whine until they delete it. ;)

[parsonsj]

If I say to you, "I think you're wrong, my experience tells me otherwise." You're ok with that, but if I say to you, "You don't have a clue what you're talking about and I can prove it!" You get offended. But they both more or less mean the same thing.

When should a moderator step in? IMO, it's when there ceases to be any intelligent arguments and the discussion degenerates into name calling.Here's the best way to know if you've stepped over a line: when your argument uses pronouns. That's how you can tell you are responding personally, rather than to an argument.

jp

[68Formula]

Could you be a bit more specific about where people have misapplied it within this thread? I ask because, while admirable and eloquent, your statement reads more like rhetoric than substantive criticism. The text of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America states:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

The judicial reading of the law is fairly broad in its scope, but certainly there is nothing I've specifically noted within the content of this thread that "misapplies" it in itself, though certainly some of it (including lots of stuff I've posted) seems a bit unworthy of the support of such an ideal as the First Amendment sought and continues to provide.

This types of forums are not public. And therefore not protected under the first amendment. So if someone says their rights are being violated because of censorship on this type of forum, they are incorrect.

[parsonsj]

I'll report this thread and whine until they delete it. ;)No need. The mods are watching. lol!

One thing we ask from all the posters here: the use of real names. Put it in your signature. First names are enough if you are worried about TLI (true life information) affecting you off the site, but getting past pseudonyms can bring some of the humanity back to our postings.

jp

[DynoDon]

I can't believe I just read this whole thread. There's about 10 minutes of my life I'll never get back. :nopity:
It just amazes me that this keeps going when there doesn't seem to be an issue with any of this type of posting or censorship on this board anyway. :spank2:

let's get back to CARS:thankyou:

[DarkBuddha]

You're still trying to equate public rights to private forums. No one is enslaved by a forum. They can choose to leave at any time. As a member this is your control. If enough people exercise their right to leave, then the owner can choose whether or not to make changes to gain popularity back. That's the owners right. It's really just a business.
My statement was with regard to the principles of freedom that the internet as a whole once represented, not forums specifically. Forums and their evolution simply reflect the compromises the internet has continued to suffer since its earlier (earliest?) incarnation. It is forums and the internet that are enslaved, not people; though if people become users, they willingly become part of the machine that works to enslave the internet. You are correct, of course, about the ability of people to exercise their right to leave and the possibility for owners/moderators to make changes to gain members/popularity back. But you are most right about it all being working on the same paradigm as business, which just reinforces my statements about it being subject to the same political, judicial, legislative, consumer plague that has broken and enslaved the real world.

[parsonsj]

I can't believe I just read this whole thread. There's about 10 minutes of my life I'll never get back. With an attitude like that, you'll never be a moderator around here. :)

jp

[DarkBuddha]

I can't believe I just read this whole thread. There's about 10 minutes of my life I'll never get back. :nopity:
It just amazes me that this keeps going when there doesn't seem to be an issue with any of this type of posting or censorship on this board anyway. :spank2:

let's get back to CARS:thankyou:
Sorry about that... but I have to say I'm truly impressed this thread hasn't been closed yet; a true tribute to the reasonability of the moderators here. Of course, it could still all go wrong yet.

[Mathius]

Here's the best way to know if you've stepped over a line: when your argument uses pronouns. That's how you can tell you are responding personally, rather than to an argument.

jp

Another perfect example, and by moderator no less (supporting everything I've said so far) of someone applying meaning to what I say without knowing my intent. Not to mention, generalizing is a bad habit to begin with.


I can't believe I just read this whole thread. There's about 10 minutes of my life I'll never get back. :nopity:
It just amazes me that this keeps going when there doesn't seem to be an issue with any of this type of posting or censorship on this board anyway. :spank2:

let's get back to CARS:thankyou:
And again, nobody is forcing you to be here. This is the off topic section and as such this is a perfectly legal topic. If it doesn't interest you, you don't have to read it or respond.

Mathius

[parsonsj]

of someone applying meaning to what I say without knowing my intent.Not quite. I'm applying meaning to what you write. And that's all any of us have. Nobody here can telepathically tell what any of us intend. if you find that many people miss your point, or always seem to take what you write the wrong way... have a look at your writing style. Maybe it's not everybody else.

jp

[Mathius]

Not quite. I'm applying meaning to what you write. And that's all any of us have. Nobody here can telepathically tell what any of us intend. if you find that many people miss your point, or always seem to take what you write the wrong way... have a look at your writing style. Maybe it's not everybody else.

jp

No, it's not me. You should never assume tone in a written message. You're showing your stripes.

Mathius

[DynoDon]

And again, nobody is forcing you to be here. This is the off topic section and as such this is a perfectly legal topic. If it doesn't interest you, you don't have to read it or respond. Mathius
You are right, no one is forcing me or anyone else to be here, does that somehow mean that we don't have the right to express an opinion?
And I Never said it wasn't "Legal", I only expressed my opinion of it, which is what it was all about in the first place and yet you felt the need to respond that somehow I am wrong for doing so or at minimum seemed to instruct me in how to operate on this forum.

[parsonsj]

You're showing your stripes.Interesting. What stripes are those? (without assuming my tone, of course) :grouphug:

jp

[DartorDemon]

I think most people believe that when they are in a public library, they can expect a quiet place to read and to study. If somebody feels they can ruin that sort of environment because they have "freedom of speech", they are indeed harassing others.

jp

Yes, but thats due to loudness more then anything. I could walk into a library and scream "I LOVE READING!" over and over again and be more harrassing then calling someone one of my favorite dirty words(usually starts with a c....).

if someone did a string of "I LOVE PROTOURING" threads that was just the title restated, you might throw his ass out for the type of reasons, even if what he said is not bad.

My point is in regards to having views that clash with others on these type of forums. There are moderators that get so pissy that they'll ban people for offering an opinion/viewpoint thats drastically different from what they believe.

And to the point of this not being a public forum. How well does a forum exist without people post on it? Many forums help cover the costs and sometimes make a little money from the ads on their site. How well does that work without people? IMO its a pretty dependent system if you want it to be successful.

[parsonsj]

Yes, but thats due to loudness more then anything. I could walk into a library and scream "I LOVE READING!" over and over again and be more harrassing then calling someone one of my favorite dirty words(usually starts with a c....).

if someone did a string of "I LOVE PROTOURING" threads that was just the title restated, you might throw his ass out for the type of reasons, even if what he said is not bad.I think we are in agreement. Cool.


And to the point of this not being a public forum. How well does a forum exist without people post on it? Many forums help cover the costs and sometimes make a little money from the ads on their site. How well does that work without people? IMO its a pretty dependent system if you want it to be successful.People posting does not equal "public". That's really the crux of what we disagree about, I think, in terms of what this forum is. Because people from around the world post here does not make it "public" with protection from the 1st amendment. Several others have made this argument already, so I won't go there again. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

jp

[Mathius]

You are right, no one is forcing me or anyone else to be here, does that somehow mean that we don't have the right to express an opinion?
And I Never said it wasn't "Legal", I only expressed my opinion of it, which is what it was all about in the first place and yet you felt the need to respond that somehow I am wrong for doing so or at minimum seemed to instruct me in how to operate on this forum.

Another perfect example of what I'm talking about.

Mathius

[DarkBuddha]

Good stuff here, and not uncivil, unpolite, or disrespectful. Very refreshing.

This types of forums are not public. And therefore not protected under the first amendment. So if someone says their rights are being violated because of censorship on this type of forum, they are incorrect.
Now, I'll readily admit that my depth of knowledge on the breadth of the application and judicial reading of the First Amendment is fairly limited. But based on my rather shallow understanding of public forum doctrine, I don't think it's as simple as any non-public forum not being protected under the First Amendment even though there is much much more leniency in the rights of individuals and government(s) to limit/censor speech in private forums. In this case, speaking directly of internet forums, while limitation/censorship of posts may not protected under the First Amendment, they may still in fact be subject to it in a number of other ways (regarding making threats, slander, etc.). So it just isn't as simple as them not being "protected" under the First Amendment.

[parsonsj]

In this case, speaking directly of internet forums, while limitation/censorship of posts may not protected under the First Amendment, they may still in fact be subject to it in a number of other ways (regarding making threats, slander, etc.). So it just isn't as simple as them not being "protected" under the First Amendment.I think you're right: if someone feels libeled and can show that the person making the libelous statement did it knowingly to harm the first person without cause, then they have a case. But it has to be specific, from what I've read.

And really, that's kind of the whole point: the idea that you can say (or write) something without regard to its truthfulness or effect is just not what the 1st amendment was intended to protect. The 1st amendment is supposed to protect folks from prosecution when they criticize their government.

It doesn't give folks protection from moderators and administrators on private forums.

jp

[BonzoHansen]

I always looked at logging into an online forum is like being at the owners house. As a generally reasonable adult I understand I should abide by the owner's requests, and if I act in such a way that is against the owner's wishes I expect to be shown the door. But as a generally mature adult I can act appropriately, and if I find the rules too restrictive/conflicting I leave.

Maybe here is a good test for public vs private. If one person can take it away from you it's private. Larry can turn off the site. He cannot lock up Central Park.

[68Formula]

Good stuff here, and not uncivil, unpolite, or disrespectful. Very refreshing.

Now, I'll readily admit that my depth of knowledge on the breadth of the application and judicial reading of the First Amendment is fairly limited. But based on my rather shallow understanding of public forum doctrine, I don't think it's as simple as any non-public forum not being protected under the First Amendment even though there is much much more leniency in the rights of individuals and government(s) to limit/censor speech in private forums. In this case, speaking directly of internet forums, while limitation/censorship of posts may not protected under the First Amendment, they may still in fact be subject to it in a number of other ways (regarding making threats, slander, etc.). So it just isn't as simple as them not being "protected" under the First Amendment.

First off, although this is strictly opinion, I don't think it's fair to call your understanding "shallow."

In regards to slander... this has to do with malicious statements intended to do a person's reputation harm. The 1st amendment is to protect a person's right while sounding off against the government, but the law allows protection against someone affecting ones reputation. Again, the difference has to do with the intention of the 1st amendment. The government cannot (at least in theory) censor our opinion against them. However it does not protect that if we make false statements against an individual or company that produces harm, we cannot be held liable.

[DartorDemon]

I think we are in agreement. Cool.

People posting does not equal "public". That's really the crux of what we disagree about, I think, in terms of what this forum is. Because people from around the world post here does not make it "public" with protection from the 1st amendment. Several others have made this argument already, so I won't go there again. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

jp

pretty much, i was just about done before the last post anyways. It was atleast an interesting discussion.

[DarkBuddha]

Freedom of speech is certainly tricky business, but I personally never saw it as a meaningful issue for my problem with certain forums. See, I don't see the internet necessarily being "American" and being subject to our laws, morals, etc., even though that is exactly what has happened. But certainly the Chinese, Europe, middle eastern countries, etc. don't see it that way. I tend to consider it in terms of the potential ideal of the internet, or at least what it could represent. I had my first access to the internet starting around 1990 (college), and I remember that there was no one editing any damn thing. Sifting through a BBS was a completely open experience... anything from folks trading pirate recordings to posting harsh (and probably unlawful) criticisms of government. I think we've all forgotten (or missed out on) that the internet once had that kind of freedom of exchange.

[Mathius]

Freedom of speech is certainly tricky business, but I personally never saw it as a meaningful issue for my problem with certain forums. See, I don't see the internet necessarily being "American" and being subject to our laws, morals, etc., even though that is exactly what has happened. But certainly the Chinese, Europe, middle eastern countries, etc. don't see it that way. I tend to consider it in terms of the potential ideal of the internet, or at least what it could represent. I had my first access to the internet starting around 1990 (college), and I remember that there was no one editing any damn thing. Sifting through a BBS was a completely open experience... anything from folks trading pirate recordings to posting harsh (and probably unlawful) criticisms of government. I think we've all forgotten (or missed out on) that the internet once had that kind of freedom of exchange.

It's like anything else. The internet was supposed to be a place of free speech ect, but human beings as a species immediately have to find a way to govern and/or control everything.

Not to go off subject, but look at how the united states has suddenly decided we need to take care of the world with all this "green" crap and nothing can harm the environment. It's pretty arrogant. I promise you the earth will be around long after human beings are extinct. It may or may not be inhabitable by people, but that may just be the natural order of things.

Mathius

[gEtyOpAPiOn]

if people would stop whining then rules laws and regulations would be different ,so thank the whiners lol ummm 98% of the US lol,and if you are complaining too then that makes you a ......too ha!

[DarkBuddha]

I'll say that I agree that whiners seem to get the most service(s), especially whiners with deep pockets. Squeaky wheel gets the grease, but a rich squeaky wheel gets to hold the grease gun.

[wmhjr]

I had my first access to the internet starting around 1990 (college), and I remember that there was no one editing any damn thing. Sifting through a BBS was a completely open experience... anything from folks trading pirate recordings to posting harsh (and probably unlawful) criticisms of government. I think we've all forgotten (or missed out on) that the internet once had that kind of freedom of exchange.

Frankly, the internet is simply another vector of one to many communications. My experience predates yours, but even going back to the 90s (when frankly, the net was an immature fledgling and was seriously overshadowed by the Compuserves, Prodigys, and AOLs of the world) consider the situation. Remember, in 1990 most computer screens were monochrome. A Seagate 40mb 28ms MFM or RLL drive was relatively large. A 340MB ESDI drive cost over $1K not including the required EISA or ISA controller (another few hundred). Arcnet still existed. Token ring was the "new thing". Windows 3.0 was new. You weren't tradiing much in the way of pirate recordings in 1990. A 14.4K modem was screaming fast.

The point is that in 1990 there were far far fewer activities and uses of the "online experience" (let's use that term instead of the internet because in 1990 it was a more accurate description). No mystery as to why there was less management of content. Heck, I'll even turn it around. In 1990 content was massively managed. AOL and Compuserve had some REALLY restrictive policies.

To me it's no different than when the car was invented. There weren't speed limits posted because they weren't necessary. Things have changed. And the 1st Amendment does not promise freedom of speech on a site such as this any more than it insures that you can publish anything you want in a newspaper or on TV. This is not a "public" area to any extent further than the owners of this site want it to be. It belongs to them and they graciously invite us to participate- just like a private business who can tell whoever they want to leave - even though they require customers to stay in business.

[critter]

LOL. I was there in those days as well. Man, I'm old.

[Mathius]

LOL. I was there in those days as well. Man, I'm old.

Not a pissing contest, but I remember back when there was no internet and you just connected to bbs's (they would later reminisce about how great amiga's were). My first pc was 9 mhz. I never used the 8.5" (or whatever they were) floppies, but I was aware of them. I had a lot of 5.25" floppys and of course later the old 3.5". Nowadays kids don't even know what they look like.

I think my first modem was a 1200baud.

First computer I had was a texas instrument (yeah, it had a full keyboard and everything, TI used to do that) that held certain software on cassettes.

Mathius

[DarkBuddha]

Geez... you do go back. 14.4K in 1990?!?!!! That would've been freaking lightning! I recall our tech center's fastest being a 9600 baud and thinking it was quick, especially compared to the 2400 baud modem in the library. Oh, and the folks trading pirate recordings were talking about literally trading tapes or DATs in person or via mail... not much uploading/downloading going on at the time, though I do recall being able to download midi files at the time. Unfortunately, they were usually horrible arrangements of things like "The entertainer" or Joplin ragtime stuff.

Good points though. But I think the actual amount of content of the time is kinda irrelevant to some degree; we were enthused with the potentials of the internet, especially regarding the free flow of information and ideas (and even speech). I think the internet has continued to be successful for the most part, but I also think that where it has been compromised isn't so much because of the content itself, but rather because of the desire to control the distribution and flow of that content, essentially for purpose of making money. In fact, I dare say you can find darn near any content you want on the internet, but you'll have to decide how much you're willing to pay to have access to that content (and I don't necessarily mean money).

[DarkBuddha]

First computer I had was a texas instrument (yeah, it had a full keyboard and everything, TI used to do that) that held certain software on cassettes.
DUDE! Me too! TI99-4A, purchased from Sears for $99... I remember the ad: "Get a TI99 for $99". I blocked it out for years that my first programming experience was trying to program the video game Joust on that TI99, in Basic, and saving all the work to the cassette drive. Got so far as making the 8 bit graphic of the jouster/ostrich and making it fly across the screen (wings flapping) under the control of several keyboard keys. It took hours a day for an entire summer, and I didn't do any real programming again until 2000, which is when I suddenly had flashbacks to the horrible frustrations of programming on the TI99. Damn that game Joust!

[Tony_SS]

Hey! who here had a Commadore 64? lol.

Civics lesson, the 1st amendment does not give an individual a right, but prohibits the government from making any laws infringing on freedom of speech. There are exceptions: (yelling fire, and more importantly here: commercial speech, or for commerce, which companies are private so speech within such can be regulated, as it is here and on any other forum, which most forums are private enterprises)

The bill of rights is more accurately a bill of government limitations.

Its an important distinction to make.

Now, back to the floppy drives! I'm excited today.. I'm buying an 'Old' Macintosh for $100 that sold new for thousands just a few years ago!

[DarkBuddha]

Now, back to the floppy drives! I'm excited today.. I'm buying an 'Old' Macintosh for $100 that sold new for thousands just a few years ago!
Yep... used computers have insane depreciation, especially Macs (probably due to their higher initial cost). A large coupon company was replacing of some of their production computers and my mother bought a 2.5 year old Mac Pro dual processor Intel tower w/22" LCD for $250... superdrive, 100 gig HD, 4 gigs of ram, etc. And it was still loaded with all the graphics software too. And I still have my original 500mHz Pismo and 1.33 gHz aluminum powerbooks because they're worth more to me as paperweights than what I could get if I sold them.

[CarlC]

How about a real-world (not internet) example of "free-speach" that may clear up a few things about how I believe we at p-t.com operate.

Last month a woman and her young son were evicted from a house across the street from me. She has some serious mental problems, and has had multiple run-in's with everyone in the neighborhood including my wife and I. A 1/2-hour after she was evicted (after an eight month forclosure where she lived there for free) she decides to come over while I'm out in the cul-de-sac playing with my sons. She lays into me about how inconsiderate, uncaring, evil, etc. person I am. Then she starts yelling at my kids, calling them evil as well. Yelling at me, OK. My kids, no. But what recourse to I have? She's in the street, a public place where she has the right of free speach. She can be rude, hateful, and spew absolutley awful things at my children and I can't do a thing about it. The only thing I can do is call the police. I can't win an argument with a crazy person.

Now, if she was on my property should she have the right to do that? It is America, right? Freedom of Speach? No way.

So little pieces of the internet like ours must be monitored to keep out the troublemakers. This is our home. If you want to make trouble, there are plenty of other places on the 'net that will welcome you with open arms. Just because you can't do it everywhere does not mean your rights have been infringed.

[DarkBuddha]

So little pieces of the internet like ours must be monitored to keep out the troublemakers. This is our home. If you want to make trouble, there are plenty of other places on the 'net that will welcome you with open arms. Just because you can't do it everywhere does not mean your rights have been infringed.
The trick is that it's never as simple as the generalizations we all make one way or the other. See, I suppose I'm the troublemaker in this scenario since I'm the guy who started this thread complaining about having what I felt was non-rule-violating posts/threads edited and deleted (on other forums, not here). But it does bear out your point... the right of speech on internet forums is completely at the whim and will of whoever has the power to moderate it. Fine, but when my posts are edited (my words deleted or changed) or outright deleted when I haven't violated any terms/conditions/rules, then I think it's crap and that the folks doing it are lame.

BTW, given that forum posts are not places protected by free speech, how would you feel if a post you made was modified to say something like:


So little pieces of the internet like ours must be monitored to keep out the troublemakers. This is our home. If you want to make trouble, own a rainbow flag, drive an import, are purple in color, fly kites on the beach, read Harry Potter books, can't spell the word "speech" correctly, or wear sandals with socks, then there are plenty of other places on the 'net that will welcome you with open arms. Just because you can't do it everywhere does not mean your rights have been infringed.
Doesn't seem quite right that the right to our words posted here, attributable to our name as being our responsibility (possibly legally), should so easily be resigned. I tend to be rather particular about how I word most of what I post, so I wouldn't be so cool about it.

[sniper]

Dude, you are seriously confused on what "free speech" is. And also what rights are.

You are simply stoking this argument with a false sense of what you deem should be allowed. If you want those things, you have the "FREEDOM" to start your own board and allow anything you want. If the government comes in and stops you from doing that, then you have a complaint of your rights being infringed.

[Mkelcy]

BTW, given that forum posts are not places protected by free speech, how would you feel if a post you made was modified to say something like:


So little pieces of the internet like ours must be monitored to keep out the troublemakers. This is our home. If you want to make trouble, own a rainbow flag, drive an import, are purple in color, fly kites on the beach, read Harry Potter books, can't spell the word "speech" correctly, or wear sandals with socks, then there are plenty of other places on the 'net that will welcome you with open arms. Just because you can't do it everywhere does not mean your rights have been infringed.


Carl's not purple.

[DarkBuddha]

Mark, first, you'll notice I didn't start the "free speech" argument to begin with. It was never a matter of legal right to free speech for me; I just started discussing it because it provided a good source for further discussion and thought. But for me, it was originally about a principle, not the legal interpretation and application of law. My goodness... have we been so ingrained with running our lives by what is legal and lawful that we can't even discuss things outside of the realm of the legally enforceable? Actually, that would be about right based on a lot of responses in this thread: "you don't have a legal right to freedom of speech on forums, therefor you have no right to complain." WTF?!?!!! Seriously? Can't we think outside of the box that has been prescribed to us?

Here's my thing... I like to discuss things without necessarily being bound up in convention, legalities, doctrine, or personal feelings. In fact, it is probably this exact thing that probably gets me into any trouble I do find. See, simply quoting law, rhetoric, or politics is not the same thing as applying reasoning, logic, or even good ol' fashioned common sense. And it sure as hell doesn't equate to explanation.

So as I sit here thinking about all of this, I know that it is just the way things are and that I'll just have to quiet my mind and continue to tolerate it. But I reserve the right to think it sucks... which is a right that no one can take away, even if I don't have a right to say so on an internet forum.

[DarkBuddha]

BTW: PT.com moderators clearly freaking rock for allowing this discussion to have gone this far, and the reasonability of (most of) the members here proves that such a discussion can be had without being shallow or uptight. As close to an oasis as I find anymore... in so many ways.

Cheers all.

[sniper]

I am only responding to your posts.

You think you should be able to say whatever you want, frankly I agree. It is just the internet after all. If threads get out of hand, really, who cares, where is the harm? If two people (takes to argue) want to go back and forth and others want to trudge through the mess and maybe get in the water with them, so what?

But the one little factor you seem to keep glossing over. This site is owned by a person. That person has set up forum rules and guidelines to participate. It's really that simple.

[DartorDemon]

Hey! who here had a Commadore 64? lol.

Civics lesson, the 1st amendment does not give an individual a right, but prohibits the government from making any laws infringing on freedom of speech. There are exceptions: (yelling fire, and more importantly here: commercial speech, or for commerce, which companies are private so speech within such can be regulated, as it is here and on any other forum, which most forums are private enterprises)

The bill of rights is more accurately a bill of government limitations.

Its an important distinction to make.

Now, back to the floppy drives! I'm excited today.. I'm buying an 'Old' Macintosh for $100 that sold new for thousands just a few years ago!

wow, i couldnt disagree more with you on your take of the 1st Ammendment.

[BonzoHansen]

Carl's not purple.

:lol:


If threads get out of hand, really, who cares, where is the harm? If two people (takes to argue) want to go back and forth and others want to trudge through the mess and maybe get in the water with them, so what?If you set that tone, then you have more. and more. And most people get tired of that quick. eventually too much chases away too many people and all you have left is a juvenile war forum. that atmosphere is not good for a place where you want people to openly share information and ideas. There is a right way and a wrong way to disagree. Some people will say that is over-PC feel good BS, which is a cop-out IMO. Just act like a mature adult and not an ass when you 'talk' to someone, live or on the net.


But the one little factor you seem to keep glossing over. This site is owned by a person. That person has set up forum rules and guidelines to participate. It's really that simple.Agreed.

[BonzoHansen]

Isn't this the 1st amendment?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Not sure how that really applies to a privately owned anything.


http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Am1

[Mathius]

But the one little factor you seem to keep glossing over. This site is owned by a person. That person has set up forum rules and guidelines to participate. It's really that simple.

Actually, the problem is a LOT more complicated than that. You see, Larry (using this board for an example) is not in any way, shape, or form, the issue, IMHO. I've seldom seen Larry over the 5 years I've posted here. Maybe he just frequents the technical parts and not the OT or Fabrication sections that I do, but he's never even responded to any of the e-mails I've sent.

He's allowing himself to be represented by a lot of different personalities (mods/admins) who may or may not handle things the same way he does. And since he's empowered them, he's more or less obligated to support them (at least in public) unless he's interested in creating rift.

In all honesty, I doubt he loses any sleep at all over the day to day handling of the board and is more concerned over sponsors and events these days.

Mathius

[Mathius]

There is a right way and a wrong way to disagree. Some people will say that is over-PC feel good BS, which is a cop-out IMO. Just act like a mature adult and not an ass when you 'talk' to someone, live or on the net.

I have to ask, who gave you the authority to decide this for everyone? It just goes back to what I said about people's feeling of entitlement that they have a right not to be offended.

My third welding instructor was a drunk who came to class half sloshed and wasted about $800 of my own money that I paid to take the class, but he taught me the basics of TIG welding and gave me some blueprint reading books and I will always respect him for that. Now was he behaving in a manner you felt was "proper" ?

People need to stop taking everything personally, stop expecting things, and stop being so damn arrogant and just accept that people are who they are and you can't change them. We're just people, going through life, taking what we can from events and dismissing the things we can't. It's like that serenity statement... the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference.

Mathius

[parsonsj]

People need to stop taking everything personallyGood idea.

jp

[parsonsj]

If threads get out of hand, really, who cares, where is the harm? If two people (takes to argue) want to go back and forth and others want to trudge through the mess and maybe get in the water with them, so what?The harm is to the atmosphere of the site. We try to have a friendly, helpful tone at PT.com. Letting members slug it out with personal attacks (and other members piling on one side or another) is something we work hard to prevent.

jp

[parsonsj]

Actually, the problem is a LOT more complicated than that.I don't see the complication. This is Larry's site, and we work together to promote what Larry wants. The mods talk among ourselves and with Larry all the time.

jp

[Mathius]

I don't see the complication.

No surprise there, you're a moderator.


This is Larry's site, and we work together to promote what Larry wants. The mods talk among ourselves and with Larry all the time.

jp

Before or after you've already taken action? eh?

Mathius

[parsonsj]

Before or after you've already taken action? eh?Usually before. Occasionally after. But it doesn't really matter: discussions taking place after an "incident" are applied to the next one. The mods have all been here for years. We've got good teamwork and a good consistent sense of how to manage the board.

jp

[DarkBuddha]

I am only responding to your posts.
I think you're only responding to a small selection of my posts and taking them somewhat out of the context of this thread.


You think you should be able to say whatever you want, frankly I agree. It is just the internet after all. If threads get out of hand, really, who cares, where is the harm? If two people (takes to argue) want to go back and forth and others want to trudge through the mess and maybe get in the water with them, so what?
Careful here, because from my perspective, it appears that you are asserting your own reading of what you believe I think. Go back, look for any place where I asserted I should be able to say anything I want. Or look for a place where you know I've actually stopped myself from saying anything I want. My point being that you cannot be sure if what I have actually posted is self-censored or not, and thus you cannot be sure, based on the evidence, whether I actually think I should be able to say whatever I want or not. I will say this: I do believe in the ideal of the freedom of speech (in the abstract). But do I occur to you to be the kind of iconoclastic, egomaniacal, disrespectful jerk that would actually not self-edit or self-censor for the consideration of others' concerns? Perhaps I do.



But the one little factor you seem to keep glossing over. This site is owned by a person. That person has set up forum rules and guidelines to participate. It's really that simple.
And you've glossed over the fact that I've specifically mentioned a couple/few times that I initiated this thread in talking about exchanges that don't violate any forum rules/terms/guidelines/policies. I'm not glossing over the interests of site owners/moderators, their rights, or the following of rules and guidelines. That's part of the deal (and I'd do the same thing as a forum owner/mod). But it doesn't mean those owners/moderators, their rights, or their rules and guidelines are beyond reproach or criticism, though they may be beyond reprimand or correction. That's all I'm sayin'.

BTW, do try to remember that when I find myself confronted with having my posts/threads edited/deleted, I take a very reasonable course of action: I quit posting on those forums. I've never been banned, asked to leave, or even reprimanded privately or publicly on any forum I've posted on, yet I have found myself at odds with the way some forums are being run and have dealt with my own posts/threads.




People need to stop taking everything personally
Exactly, though I do understand when folks take things personally that are targeted towards them personally.


In any case, I started this thread to commiserate, and while there's been a bit of that, there's also been some defensiveness, which actually surprised me. But that's the good part... there's been good discussion of broader issues and fleshing out of different perspectives.

[Mathius]

That's part of the deal (and I'd do the same thing as a forum owner/mod). But it doesn't mean those owners/moderators, their rights, or their rules and guidelines are beyond reproach or criticism, though they may be beyond reprimand or correction. That's all I'm sayin'.

And you're correct, but in my experience almost nobody sees it this way. In fact, a lot of people, specifically moderators, admins, and people running the site act like it's a privilege to be on said message board and even in some cases that we should be thankful of said site owner for providing this place.

They seem to overlook the fact that we're not here because of said site owner or even the board itself. There are always more message boards, unless you're looking for something very very specific. The only reason we're really here, is because it's busy. Because nobody wants to talk to themselves.

And then if you were to bring up that point, then the response of course is typically, "well it's busy here because people obviously like the atmosphere." Well, McDonalds is busy, but it's not exactly the atmosphere. I don't hear people bragging about the wonderful service they had at McDonalds, or the health benefits of McDonalds food. Just because something is popular doesn't mean it can't be improved. But so many people in this world are ready to settle because it's easier than making a stand or an effort.

Mathius

[DarkBuddha]

The harm is to the atmosphere of the site. We try to have a friendly, helpful tone at PT.com. Letting members slug it out with personal attacks (and other members piling on one side or another) is something we work hard to prevent.

jp
jp, you and all the mods here seem to do an excellent job and appear to be very fair minded. I know I do forget that threads (like this one perhaps) tend to ruffle feathers, even if/when they're posted in sections that are designated for off-topic discussion away the main subject of the forum. I think most people's passion and enthusiasm for any particular thing comes bound up with passion and enthusiasm for other things, especially when they find a group that they can identify with. But the problem comes when they "get back to business" and can't distinguish what is appropriate and separate their passions and enthusiasms when needed. That's when it gets personal and problematic.

[Mathius]

jp, you and all the mods here seem to do an excellent job and appear to be very fair minded. I know I do forget that threads (like this one perhaps) tend to ruffle feathers

Stop right there. I want to know why this thread should be ruffling anyone's feathers? Because we're potentially questioning and/or criticizing? the moderators? Because we're questioning Larry's intentions? At what point did opening a web site allow said person to become perfect?

Prohibiting discussion just because it questions direction or decisions doesn't seem like an endearing quality for a web site, but then we've already established this isn't a democracy and there is no freedom of speech.

It does go back to your original point of just how is this conversation violating the terms of service? But then again since you only see the terms of service when you sign up and they don't seem to be posted anywhere on the web site that I can find, I can't verify my memory from 5 years ago is accurate.

Mathius

[parsonsj]

they don't seem to be posted anywhere on the web site that I can find, I can't verify my memory from 5 years ago is accurate.Look again at the first page of Open Discussion. Here's a link:

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9761

jp

[parsonsj]

jp, you and all the mods here seem to do an excellent job and appear to be very fair minded. I know I do forget that threads (like this one perhaps) tend to ruffle feathers, even if/when they're posted in sections that are designated for off-topic discussion away the main subject of the forum. I think most people's passion and enthusiasm for any particular thing comes bound up with passion and enthusiasm for other things, especially when they find a group that they can identify with. But the problem comes when they "get back to business" and can't distinguish what is appropriate and separate their passions and enthusiasms when needed. That's when it gets personal and problematic.Right. We appreciate the sentiment (sometimes moderating can be a lot like being a referee :) ).

This is a car site about Pro Touring, and we hope the site fuels the passion for our favorite type of cars. Dealing with difficult users and/or threads can take away from the fun the site is intended to provide. Getting into freedom of speech and the inevitable differences among the members can be trying, for sure.

jp

[Mathius]

Look again at the first page of Open Discussion. Here's a link:

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9761

jp

Ah.. No John. You are in fact incorrect. Those are not the terms of service, that is, the contract you sign when you sign up. Simply logging out of my account (well actually I used a proxy) and starting the first phase of signing for a new account (no, I did not actually register a new account), reveals that the actual terms of service don't match your "rules of conduct" at all:



RULES OF CONDUCT:
Pro-Touring.com / G-Machines.com has a great reputation for maintaining a positive, helpful atmosphere. So far, the members have done an excellent job of maintaining that positive, helpful atmosphere. But the “club” is growing. As a result, we are incorporating some basic rules of conduct for our little Internet car club.
1). No off Topic Posts: This is not the place to ask questions about the faulty heater control valve in your Hyundai. Nor is this a forum for political rants, sports debates, personal problems or anything other than pro-touring cars. IF YOU GET OFF TOPIC YOUR THREAD WILL BE CLOSED. IF YOU MAKE A HABIT OF IT, YOU WILL BE BANNED.
2).No Trash-Talkin': Flames and “trash-talking” are frowned upon. People come here to enjoy themselves and gather information. Before you go bouncing off the rev limiter, please re-read your posts and edit as necessary. Remember where you are before you hit “submit” or “reply”. You are entitled to your opinion and individuality, but at the same time: IF YOU POST FLAMES OR “TRASH-TALK” YOUR THREAD WILL BE CLOSED. IF YOU MAKE A HABIT OF IT, YOU WILL BE BANNED.
THE BASICS:
This is a free site supported by donations. It is frequented by a wide range of people. So out of respect for everyone, please follow these basic rules.
3).Profanity/Nudity: Do not under any circumstances, post nudity or use profanity in the forums. Posts containing such content will be edited by moderators, and possibly deleted. IF YOU MAKE A HABIT OF IT, YOU WILL BE BANNED.
4).Viruses/Detrimental Content/Spam: Pro-Touring.com WILL NOT TOLERATE the posting of such content. If you post a virus on our forum, you WILL BE BANNED. We take great pride in our forum and it's safety, any member jeopardizing it will be banned. Spam will not be tolerated either, upon first offense, the thread will be closed and a warning issued, upon second offense, you will be banned.
5).Spelling Grammar: As we communicate with the written word, you have to at least TRY. It turns out that effective spelling and grammar are good for something.
6).Stay in Topic: Unless it’s absolutely urgent, keep all posts within the appropriate topic. Do NOT just dump tech questions in the Open Discussion topic because the name is “Open”. If the question has an answer, a member will almost always reply within 24-48 hours. Oh, and if you get impatient and post: “What’s wrong with you people, why won’t you answer??” or something to that effect, it will not help the matter. We’re not here to serve you—it’s a club, however we try to help our members as much as we possibly can. Please note: Threads WILL be moved to the proper forum that they belong in.
Pix: While not mandatory, we encourage the sharing of images. It does not matter what condition your car is in or what you look like. We just like looking at pictures. If you need help with posting images or links just ask. Many members are willing to help explane how to do this or just read our faq section.
Donations: Please help keep this club alive by clicking on the donations link.
That’s it!! Welcome to the club!

Interestingly enough, anyone who has ever posted in the Outhouse has almost certainly violated the ToS agreement they signed.

Mathius

[parsonsj]

anyone who has ever posted in the Outhouse has almost certainly violated the ToS agreement they signed.

OK, thanks. I'll mention the discrepancy to Larry, though I'm glad you've answered your own question. Over the years, as people wanted and asked for a hangout place we established an Outhouse, and even later, a Political Outhouse.

We should update the ToS to be entirely consistent with the rules.

jp

[DarkBuddha]

Stop right there. I want to know why this thread should be ruffling anyone's feathers? Because we're potentially questioning and/or criticizing? the moderators? Because we're questioning Larry's intentions? At what point did opening a web site allow said person to become perfect?
Whoa! I don't think any of the PT.com mods or Larry were mentioned in a negative light anywhere in the context of this thread. I only posted here because PT.com seems to be the most well run, well moderated, reasonable forum that I visit, and I personally find that I often share more in common with folks on this forum than any of the others I visit.

As for feathers getting ruffled, I took our fine mods comment as a kind of heads-up. I'm not sure there is any significant conflict to be found in this thread in particular, but I understand that any thread that has people taking critical positions may result in creating an air of conflict, which might be enough to ruffle feathers. Being as self-conscious as I can be, I acknowledged simply that this thread could be seen to have that potential, which would be unfortunate and unintended.

[BonzoHansen]

...and people running the site act like it's a privilege to be on said message board...Well, IMO it is certainly not anyone's right to be here. So if it is not a right and it's not a privilege, what is it?

[Mathius]

Well, IMO it is certainly not anyone's right to be here. So if it is not a right and it's not a privilege, what is it?

I'm sorry, I was unaware that everything fell under those 2 categories, or that everything had to be labeled.

It's not a right to breath air, and it's not a privilege, it just is.

Anyone who can afford internet and has an e-mail address can log in here, create an account, and post. There's no screening process that I'm aware of, there's not a waiting period to post.

Mathius

[Mkelcy]

Wtf is this thread about?

This, like much of the internet, is a private site. Posters can either comply with the site rules or be suspended or banned.

And, yes, I've been thrown out of nicer joints than this. :smoke:

[zbugger]

Mathius, it's not a right to be here. As we have the right to control people's conduct here by telling them what they can and can't say on the site, it becomes a privilege. It's a necessity to live to breathe air. It's not a right to drive, it's a privilege to drive that can be taken away, just as a membership here can be taken away. Your questioning of our (the moderators) actions on the site put you under our microscope. We were chosen to moderate this site because Larry thinks we can help run the site like HE wants it run. If you want to continue questioning us, we have the full right from the owner of this site to ask you to leave on your own. Then we have full privilege to kick you off if we so choose to. It's not a right to post to any site that I know of. You are allowed to by those who run the site and therefore it's a privilege.

[CarlC]

Gee, thanks Mike!


There's no screening process that I'm aware of, there's not a waiting period to post.

Mathius

But there are rules of engagement. They are pretty simple.

Ever notice how many of the very helpful and knowledgeable members don't participate in political discussions? Wonder why? Because it almost always swirls down into a mess. I believe the vast majority of us believe that this is a place to share information about a passion we share in common, Pro-Touring. When the political/religious beliefs come up, it fouls the mood. jp and I had a similar discussion about this very subject just a few weeks ago.

Yeah, I spelled speech incorrectly. I hate it when I do that.

[Mathius]

Mathius, it's not a right to be here. As we have the right to control people's conduct here by telling them what they can and can't say on the site, it becomes a privilege. It's a necessity to live to breathe air. It's not a right to drive, it's a privilege to drive that can be taken away, just as a membership here can be taken away.

No, that's where you're mistaken. You cannot control my conduct. You can simply remove me from the site. You can erase my posts. You can pretend I wasn't here. But you can't change history or control my conduct.


Your questioning of our (the moderators) actions on the site put you under our microscope. We were chosen to moderate this site because Larry thinks we can help run the site like HE wants it run. If you want to continue questioning us, we have the full right from the owner of this site to ask you to leave on your own. Then we have full privilege to kick you off if we so choose to. It's not a right to post to any site that I know of. You are allowed to by those who run the site and therefore it's a privilege.

I don't really care if I'm under your microscope. I haven't done anything wrong and I'm not the least bit intimidated by your or anyone else. As a matter of fact, I am a fairly long standing member now at 5 years. I am simply expressing my opinion, experience, and commiserating with the OP's discussion. You, like most people in this thread just continue to prove my point. You're reacting as if I'm hostile because I've questioned the rules that you put in place or more specifically your behavior. You don't know me from Obama and yet you're interpreting my actions as hostile.

Mathius

[parsonsj]

You don't know me from Obama and yet you're interpreting my actions as hostile.As I mentioned previously, I have no idea what your actions or intentions are. We can only go on what you write. And make no mistake: your writing is hostile. You've been getting that feedback from members and moderators alike.

jp

[Mathius]

Ever notice how many of the very helpful and knowledgeable members don't participate in political discussions? Wonder why?

Because nobody likes it when you question mommy and daddy. Problem is they aren't perfect either.


Because it almost always swirls down into a mess.

Actually, apparently it's because the mods retaliate by threatening people.

Mathius

[Mathius]

As I mentioned previously, I have no idea what your actions or intentions are. We can only go on what you write. And make no mistake: your writing is hostile. You've been getting that feedback from members and moderators alike.

jp

And just what did I say that was hostile John? Because I told you you were wrong? Because I didn't agree with you? Because I said I wasn't intimidated?

Did I make any threats? Did I call anyone any names? Did I get aggressive?

You just don't like what I have to say, so you label it as hostile.

Mathius

[parsonsj]

Hostile things from Mathius:

1. Comparing mods to "mommy and daddy".
2. Implying that the mods threaten people.
3. Sarcastic language ("said person to become perfect?").

And that's only on this particular page. I'll bet there are more examples on previous pages.

jp

[Larry Callahan]

Well, it looks like it's time to update the rules of conduct / TOS. That was written a long time ago and yes, it is time to revisit it.

I thought I would pop in and share a little with everyone about my vision for the forum.

I take great pride in how this forum has grown over the last ten years and how great a job the moderators do. Keeping things civil, maintaining an environment that welcomes ideas, discussion and the growth of the hobby and the industry that supports it is my passion. It's a site that I would frequent and there are others sites I frequent for other topics that I have left due to what seems a total lack of respect for one another.

It is my desire to run a site where everyone feels welcome and where we can learn, laugh, trade ideas, gather on the internet and in person and that takes a lot of work. The site exists thanks to all of the members and the hard working moderators. It is a task that takes moderators a lot of time and most of the time it is a thankless job. Occasionally they have to step in and moderate and it's not a fun job. They do it not for the money but for the love of the hobby.

It's a car site. I'm not perfect, the site is not perfect and anyone who wishes to is welcome to leave. If the moderators and myself agree that some one needs to leave they will be escorted out.

Something I had to learn the hard way many years ago is that you can't make everyone happy. There will always be someone that feels they are not welcome or were shut down unfairly and that was tough for me to swallow. I long for everyone to be happy, get along and have a great experience here and look forward to coming back.

[Mathius]

Hostile things from Mathius:

1. Comparing mods to "mommy and daddy".

That's hostile? Comparing the people in authority to a parental figure is hostile? That's a reach, John.


2. Implying that the mods threaten people.


What would you interpret this as, then:

Your questioning of our (the moderators) actions on the site put you under our microscope. We were chosen to moderate this site because Larry thinks we can help run the site like HE wants it run. If you want to continue questioning us, we have the full right from the owner of this site to ask you to leave on your own. Then we have full privilege to kick you off if we so choose to. It's not a right to post to any site that I know of. You are allowed to by those who run the site and therefore it's a privilege.

3. Sarcastic language ("said person to become perfect?").
[/QUOTE]

I wish I had the power to interpret sarcasm in text.

Mathius

[zbugger]

No, that's where you're mistaken. You cannot control my conduct. You can simply remove me from the site. You can erase my posts. You can pretend I wasn't here. But you can't change history or control my conduct.

Here's where you are wrong. We as moderators are asked to keep the peace and enforce the rules of the site. In that sense we can control how you conduct yourself in regards to the other members here. If you write in a demeaning manner towards others, we get involved.

And here's where you see a side of me that I don't usually let out. I apologize in advance to the other members and moderators on this site.


I don't really care if I'm under your microscope. I haven't done anything wrong and I'm not the least bit intimidated by your or anyone else. As a matter of fact, I am a fairly long standing member now at 5 years. I am simply expressing my opinion, experience, and commiserating with the OP's discussion. You, like most people in this thread just continue to prove my point. You're reacting as if I'm hostile because I've questioned the rules that you put in place or more specifically your behavior. You don't know me from Obama and yet you're interpreting my actions as hostile.

Mathius
I really give a hairy rat's bottom that you're a long standing member here. That's not what's important. It's the attitude that is put forth RIGHT NOW that is what matters. There's always a long standing member on some site that gets pissed off at something and explodes. That winds up getting them banned. Now, I wasn't trying to intimidate you at all. I was just trying to let you know how things are run and what we see. You are also proving the original poster's point. It's the words in the context that they are read that make them appear hostile. No, I don't know you from a rat's hairy bottom, but that doesn't make me read your words any less hostile than anyone else reads them. I'm obviously not the only one. You should step back and read what you've written again.

[CarlC]

Removing members from the site is controlling their conduct here. That is what Allen stated above. How can it not be?

What members do away from here is, in general, of no interest to us.

We moderators don't take our responsibilities lightly. There are discussions about how to handle situations that get ugly. I firmly believe that the mod's are very fair about the decisions made on how the site is run.

Moderators can ban a member, but that same member can also leave at any time for whatever reason they choose.

[Mathius]

Well, it looks like it's time to update the rules of conduct / TOS. That was written a long time ago and yes, it is time to revisit it.

I thought I would pop in and share a little with everyone about my vision for the forum.

I take great pride in how this forum has grown over the last ten years and how great a job the moderators do. Keeping things civil, maintaining an environment that welcomes ideas, discussion and the growth of the hobby and the industry that supports it is my passion. It's a site that I would frequent and there are others sites I frequent for other topics that I have left due to what seems a total lack of respect for one another.

It is my desire to run a site where everyone feels welcome and where we can learn, laugh, trade ideas, gather on the internet and in person and that takes a lot of work. The site exists thanks to all of the members and the hard working moderators. It is a task that takes moderators a lot of time and most of the time it is a thankless job. Occasionally they have to step in and moderate and it's not a fun job. They do it not for the money but for the love of the hobby.

It's a car site. I'm not perfect, the site is not perfect and anyone who wishes to is welcome to leave. If the moderators and myself agree that some one needs to leave they will be escorted out.

Something I had to learn the hard way many years ago is that you can't make everyone happy. There will always be someone that feels they are not welcome or were shut down unfairly and that was tough for me to swallow. I long for everyone to be happy, get along and have a great experience here and look forward to coming back.

Larry, as I have mentioned before I am a long standing member of your site. On a day to day basis I have no issue with your rules. Most websites are run the same as yours and in most cases not as lenient.

I do have issue with some of the people you have representing you, and I think their overall conduct in this thread is embarassing to be honest. I have tried to send you private e-mails and/or pm's in the past when I've had issues with moderators, but you ignore them and leave me no choice but to point it out here, since you finally decided to address a topic of which I am part of. If you wish to continue to discuss any of these things more specifically, I've got time and my PM box is not full.

Mathius

[Mkelcy]

Gee, thanks Mike!

Hey, no mention of the racing "suit."

Carl, I'm always ready to defend you when the need arises. And I will swear, if called upon, you're not purple.

[Mathius]

Here's where you are wrong. We as moderators are asked to keep the peace and enforce the rules of the site. In that sense we can control how you conduct yourself in regards to the other members here.

No, you really can't. That's what you guys don't seem to want to grasp. I put it in bold before. You can do whatever you want to in life if you're willing to suffer the consequences. If I feel I don't care if I get banned from this board, I can say whatever I want. You haven't changed my conduct by removing it. It's still there.



I really give a hairy rat's bottom that you're a long standing member here. That's not what's important. It's the attitude that is put forth RIGHT NOW that is what matters. There's always a long standing member on some site that gets pissed off at something and explodes. That winds up getting them banned. Now, I wasn't trying to intimidate you at all. I was just trying to let you know how things are run and what we see. You are also proving the original poster's point. It's the words in the context that they are read that make them appear hostile. No, I don't know you from a rat's hairy bottom, but that doesn't make me read your words any less hostile than anyone else reads them. I'm obviously not the only one. You should step back and read what you've written again.

As near as I can tell, the only ones taking it hostile are the moderators because I specifically started addressing them. The others are mostly telling me to keep them out of it because of the attitude you and your peers are presenting. In that same token as what I said above about what I _can_ do, just because I said I can say something, or I should be able to say something does mean I did or have, so interpreting my actions as hostile is ridiculous when it's all a hypothetical.

Mathius

[JEFFTATE]

Pro-touring.com is not a public forum.
It is a Free Membership Forum , that caters to a particular niche' of the automotive hobby.
Any conduct , discussion , or information that is not productive to this niche of the automotive hobby should be moderated.
There are other forums on the I'net that have been created for other purposes , like arguing .

[Mkelcy]

As near as I can tell, the only ones taking it hostile are the moderators because I specifically started addressing them. The others are mostly telling me to keep them out of it because of the attitude you and your peers are presenting. In that same token as what I said above about what I _can_ do, just because I said I can say something, or I should be able to say something does mean I did or have, so interpreting my actions as hostile is ridiculous when it's all a hypothetical.

Mathius

What a self-important load of BS! Can we climb off our self-imposed crucifixes and get back to talking about cars?

[Mathius]

What a self-important load of BS! Can we climb off our self-imposed crucifixes and get back to talking about cars?

If you want to talk about cars, talk about cars. But that's not what this thread is for. Right now all you're doing is escalating the situation with your comments.

In fact if anyone's comments in this thread were to be label'ed hostile, I'd have to go with the quote above. Any mods want to jump on that one?

Mathius

[Larry Callahan]

Mathius, I stand behind my moderators and I think they do a great job. I didn't just pull names out of a hat to pick them. They do a great job and if you don't think so that is your problem. Everyone has an opinion and I'm glad they are all different or it would be a boring world.

I just did a search and I did find one PM from you last year complaining about one of the moderators. I didn't reply to it right away and should have.

It's a car site and it's time to close this thread. Yes, I know. It's going to piss some people off. Maybe I will re-open it but for now I'm sticking a fork in it. It's done. If it upsets you that much. Leave. Plain and simple.