How to justify $1000 per wheel

[317millhand]

I had the opportunity to watch the autocross at RTTH this past weekend and had a blast. I noticed that alot of the cars were running the same Forgeline and Rushforth wheels. My quesion is, what makes these wheels worth the huge price tag? Im not trying to bash anything or anyone, Im just curious about the advantages of these wheels for a street car? Please dont attack, Im just looking for some facts.

[Yelcamino]

Supposedly they're lighter and stronger than less expensive wheels.

[Scott Parkhurst]

What Herb said, plus you can get them with the exact width/backspacing you want to stuff as much tire under the car as possible.

Not too many 'off the shelf' cast wheels will give you that benefit- or the option to widen them or change backspacing in the future like many of the 3-pc. wheels can.

[parsonsj]

From an issue of Popular Hot Rodding in 2005:

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0505phr_1967_chevy_2_custom_fabricated_suspension/suspension_glossary.html

Excerpt:
WHY THREE-PIECE MODULAR WHEELS?
Kinesis forges all three-pieces of their modular wheel. A 3,500-ton press exerts 40,000 psi to push the aluminum center into place, removing porosity and aligning the grain into a radial shape. The result is a part that is lighter and stronger than a corresponding cast piece.

Lighter is better when it comes to wheels: they are unsprung weight. Unsprung weight is vehicle mass that isn't controlled by the springs. Wheels, tires, control arms and spindles are all unsprung weight. The weight acts like a pendulum and the more of it there is, the harder the suspension has to work. That makes for sluggish handling, difficult suspension tuning and parts that wear out faster. Wheels also act like flywheels, storing kinetic energy as the car is driven down the road. A heavier wheel stores more kinetic energy, which has to be absorbed by the brakes to stop the car. Just a few pounds can make a significant difference in stopping distance.

Kinesis wheels can be taken apart and pieces replaced if they get damaged or if the backspacing needs to be changed. Since I'm building a maximum-effort front suspension, I need to use the lightest and strongest wheels I can find for ultimate handling and braking performance. Like many things in the automotive world, the performance capabilities of these wheels really translate into jaw-dropping good looks.

jp

[jknight16]

There was a great thread on this subject that contained a lot of tech from distributors and others familiar with the manufacturing process. I'll search and see if I can find it ;)

Edit: Found it! https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41381

[silver69camaro]

If you need a specific backspace or width, you don't really have a choice.

Also, if you're spending $50k+ on a build, spending $3k to $4k on wheels isn't too bad. What's worse is spending $1200 on a set of cheap wheels, then spending another $3500 on a nice set a year later because you weren't completely happy with the first set to begin with (or they didn't fit quite right). That's when wheels are expensive!

[buickfunnycar.com]

With Rushforth,there's a whole lot of style built into Jason's wheels,besides all the fine points already brought up.
Me thinks it's the selection of outstanding styles that put Rushforth on anyone's short list.

[Derek69SS]

All that's great IF the car is driven to a level that it would make any difference. For most, I think it's just about getting the right look. That's cool too, but not at my budget level... that money is better spent in other areas where my car is lacking performance.

[vintageracer]

You cannot justify $1000 per wheel ever. Although that does not mean you should not buy them!

There is no way at all to "justify" the whole car hobby and in particular the Pro-Touring segment other than "Me Gotta Have"!!!

If you like $1000 a a piece wheels buy them. It really does not make any difference if I or anyone else likes them as long as you do.

The SINGLE biggest item that will improve the looks and driving of a car is a great set of wheels.

Go for it!!!!

[ProdigyCustoms]

I accept full responsibility for all the Forgelines at RTTH's, they were clearly the wheel of choice. Between the promotion whore himself Bill Howell and myself, we have made the muscle car segment one of the biggest segments of Forgeline's street wheel business.

Some, SOME 3 piece wheels are quite a bit lighter then 2 piece welded or cast wheels. SOME wheels like Forgeline, Fikse, HRE, are built specifically to be very light and strong. I say SOME in big letter because NOT ALL 3 piece wheels are light.

Our resident Mr Parson's can explain moment or inertia, but to summarize, the lighter the wheel, the faster they will accelerate and faster they will stop with all else be equal. And when racing it is all about being fast.

Also, 3 piece wheels can be easily repaired if damaged. The Prodigy Customs / Forgeline winner at RTTH's actually killed one of his wheels in the autocross which could most likely be repaired with a rim shell if it was a 3 piece wheel.

As Derek said, do we NEED 3 piece wheels or driver instruction? Maybe some driver instruction would be good. But it sure does not hurt to have more wheel then we NEED!

Oh, and they look cool too.

[67 ls1 vert]

Yeah, thanks Frank!! I'm another victim of the Forgeline line.

Wheels can make or break the looks of any car.

[malbright]

Anyone know about nugen wheels?

[tazzz25906112]

I can tell you from a first hand experience that tooling or CNC machine time gets real expensive fast... Last year I built a custom set of 3 piece 17" Honeycomb style Pontiac rims.... Determined to achieve a certain look on my 1970 Formula,,, I went in into it green as can be,,,, and I paid large to produce the wheels....

From that experience I learned from the school of hard knocks and now have the ability to purchase Bands, and produce at a much more reasonable rate,,,, however when you consider what the real costs are it gets pretty scary quickly... It's all great to talk about bands, and two pcs vs three pcs but I'm not hearing anyone discuss the engineering, warehousing, "insurance", employees and design obsolescence costs to name a few.... Just because a wheel looks cool doesn't mean it's safe.... The cost to establish this is no small measure BTW....

Light and strong is a major focus though out the automotive aftermarket industry right now..... This considered Carbon Kustoms Ltd. is working on a wheel that we hope to have at the "Anvil Auto" booth at SEMA that will have a Carbon Composite wheel center.... The point to be had is,,,, the wheel industry is constantly evolving and these guys (the mfg sector) have too have a ROI... While it looks like all these guys are so big as manufactures,,,, you might be surprised at how short their product life span is and how few rims actually get retailed prior to the "end of a design/ wow factor life cycle" ..

So while we all want quality at a reasonable price (me included),,,,, we may want to ask ourselves if our expectations are matching the realities of production costs (in all senses when considered all in)????
Where an industry is generally making large returns, one person/company (or an employee with great plans for their future) or another usually will seek out an opportunity to undercut the market and come in with a lost cost (heavily discounted to current market pricing) alternative to take the lions share of the market place...

The market has not reacted in this typical fashion because I'd suggest to you that these are tough times,,, and the margin just isn't there for the discounts to happen perhaps????? Ask yourself, don't you think someone would try to steal the market share already if not??? Just food for thought is all I'm saying here....

[malbright]

That was supposed to be NewGen wheels... dang phones

[formula]

Haha albert's point was so good he had to make it three times.

Another point I want to bring, that Albert kinda skirted around, is just sheer build quality. Only a few people know that I had a different set of wheels on my car for, oh, about a week. I don't want to bad mouth any companies, but how many companies can you think of that make a billet aluminum snowflake wheel? :2nd:

Anyway, The mix of subpar quality, getting my order wrong three times, and HORRIBLE customer service (they had the audacity to have their "head tech guy" call me and inform me that there was no way in hell I could possibly fit a 9.5 wheel under a 2nd gen and that I was dumb for even trying) that I just gave up and told them to not send me a fourth set--and they then charged me a restocking fee.

Working with frank and forgeline--I picked the wheels, they were exactly what I wanted, and they're damn near jewelry quality. In an industry that still has a lot of companies like the first, I felt like working with the second company was a lot closer to worth the money, at least.

[317millhand]

The cars I saw at RTTH were all super cool. I know about spending on stuff that nots absolutely necessary. $2500 for that serp. setup. $800 for a gas tank. etc. etc. I also understand the logic behind unsprung weight, but is there that much of a difference to matter in speed lets say between a forgeline and the overdone TT2's or a Billet Spec. streetlite. If I like something Im gonna save until I can buy it. I do think that the $4000wheels look awesome and I also think alot of $1600 wheels LOOK just as good. Im just curious is there that much enhanced performance of one wheel vs another when using the same tires and suspension. Im also aware of brake fitment issues on cheaper wheels.


On a side note, I had a blast watching all the cars there at RTTH and hopefully Ill be able to play next year if work and my finances pick up. Im looking to paint this winter once I decide on a color. Frank, whats the color on the Bull Run Chevelle? That is sort of the maroon color Im looking for.

[class67]

All that's great IF the car is driven to a level that it would make any difference. For most, I think it's just about getting the right look. That's cool too, but not at my budget level... that money is better spent in other areas where my car is lacking performance.

I think you just answered your own question, if you cannot notice that much of a difference....spend the money elsewhere that you might!

[formula]

The cars I saw at RTTH were all super cool. I know about spending on stuff that nots absolutely necessary. $2500 for that serp. setup. $800 for a gas tank. etc. etc. I also understand the logic behind unsprung weight, but is there that much of a difference to matter in speed lets say between a forgeline and the overdone TT2's or a Billet Spec. streetlite. If I like something Im gonna save until I can buy it. I do think that the $4000wheels look awesome and I also think alot of $1600 wheels LOOK just as good. Im just curious is there that much enhanced performance of one wheel vs another when using the same tires and suspension. Im also aware of brake fitment issues on cheaper wheels.


On a side note, I had a blast watching all the cars there at RTTH and hopefully Ill be able to play next year if work and my finances pick up. Im looking to paint this winter once I decide on a color. Frank, whats the color on the Bull Run Chevelle? That is sort of the maroon color Im looking for.

To your question about how much of a difference the wheel weight can really make-- How far into the physics do you want to go? Because we can talk pretty far into the rabbit hole trying to get a firm grasp on what sort of effects you'll see in each different performance metric by changing weight.

As a simple test, though--Spin around as fast as you can with your arms stretched out to your sides, but nothing in your hands. Then spin around as fast as you can with your arms stretched out and a 5lb barbell in your hands. Now imagine that your wheels are spinning at, say, 500 RPM at high speed with or without that extra 5lb weight.

Now, stretch both of your arms out in front of you, and move them up and down as fast as you can. Then do the same with the weights. Now imagine your suspension having to do that, all freakin' day, 2-3 times a second.

[TnBlkC230WZ]

Why spend $1000 on a wheel? Because you can't take it with you and I'm not leaving it for the kids. Although my son may get the car.

[elitecustombody]

Wes, which wheel company you had problems with?

[1badchevelle]

I don't think this needs any justification. If you want them get them them even if its one wheel at a time. It cost more replace and redo what you should have started with.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/07/547-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/09/0035-1.jpg

[daredvl22]

This is an interesting thread. I think it's very difficult to put a price on the single most important item you can bolt on your car. Of course that's my opinion, as I think the wheels/ride height make or break the entire presentation. Performance is a whole other issue. This is one area I will not sacrifice on my build after everything I've done. It all comes down to personal style and what look you’re trying to pull off.

[Vegas69]

Wheels make or break a car......

[parsonsj]

The thing that sealed the deal for me buying this particular Z06 was the wheels.

Yes, the wheels on the car are very very expensive, but it reminds me of one of my favorite jokes:

Why is divorce so expensive? Because it's worth it!

jp

[DriverzInc]

I can tell you from a first hand experience that tooling or CNC machine time gets real expensive fast... Last year I built a custom set of 3 piece 17" Honeycomb style Pontiac rims.... Determined to achieve a certain look on my 1970 Formula,,, I went in into it green as can be,,,, and I paid large to produce the wheels....

From that experience I learned from the school of hard knocks and now have the ability to purchase Bands, and produce at a much more reasonable rate,,,, however when you consider what the real costs are it gets pretty scary quickly... It's all great to talk about bands, and two pcs vs three pcs but I'm not hearing anyone discuss the engineering, warehousing, "insurance", employees and design obsolescence costs to name a few.... Just because a wheel looks cool doesn't mean it's safe.... The cost to establish this is no small measure BTW....

Light and strong is a major focus though out the automotive aftermarket industry right now..... This considered Carbon Kustoms Ltd. is working on a wheel that we hope to have at the "Anvil Auto" booth at SEMA that will have a Carbon Composite wheel center.... The point to be had is,,,, the wheel industry is constantly evolving and these guys (the mfg sector) have too have a ROI... While it looks like all these guys are so big as manufactures,,,, you might be surprised at how short their product life span is and how few rims actually get retailed prior to the "end of a design/ wow factor life cycle" ..

So while we all want quality at a reasonable price (me included),,,,, we may want to ask ourselves if our expectations are matching the realities of production costs (in all senses when considered all in)????
Where an industry is generally making large returns, one person/company (or an employee with great plans for their future) or another usually will seek out an opportunity to undercut the market and come in with a lost cost (heavily discounted to current market pricing) alternative to take the lions share of the market place...

The market has not reacted in this typical fashion because I'd suggest to you that these are tough times,,, and the margin just isn't there for the discounts to happen perhaps????? Ask yourself, don't you think someone would try to steal the market share already if not??? Just food for thought is all I'm saying here....

Everything said here is well said, and food for thought... And I'm glad a customer, not a manufacturer posted it. I've been in the wheel business for a LONG time now, and I have been on various message boards defending why wheels cost so much, and take so long to make, and quite frankly, I'm tired of defending the business. Wheels cost a lot of money to make, and a lot of money to advertise and produce, and when custom machining a wheel from scratch, its expensive. To produce a high end product, it takes $$. A lot more than people may realize, and I'm glad someone like you dabbled in it on a small scale and realized how hard and expensive it would be to do it on a large scale.

[tazzz25906112]

Thanks Jon..... You know this is not unlike the whole car hobby,,,,, it usually doesn't make good financial sense,,, but dam it sure fun building the dam things...
I'll continue to play with design and material choices for construction as I enjoyed the process much like building the cars themselves...

[Matt@BOS]

As others have said, most people buy them because they look cool, or because they need custom offsets. At the end of the day though, if you're buying 3 piece forged wheels, you're paying for quality that can't be had in a cast wheel from China. Whether or not we make use of that quality is another question. One thing I can attest to though is the strength of Forgeline's wheels. I got hit by a car going 45mph, and the wheel took the force of the impact. I have never, ever seen a wheel survive an accident as well as that Forgeline did. From a visual inspection the center is still intact (the inner hoop got bent around the control arm). Nothing cracked or chipped off like a cast wheel would have done.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/09/DSC_0652-1.jpg

Matt

[ProdigyCustoms]

And while I am sure your insurance company is buying you a new wheel, you could rehoop that one for a few hundred dollars and have a nice matching spare now.

[JayR]

For starters, very few of our wheels are $1000 a piece if you're 10" wide or less and going 2 piece construction like most of our clients.

ALL very good points and thanks to all of our satisfied clients who chimed in here to our defense. That alone should tell you something about the investment.

Formula's analogy about demonstrating rotating mass and unsprung weight was a great one too. Shaving a pound from a wheel is nearly the same affect as shaving 10 pounds from the car.

6061 T-6 aluminum forgings are light, strong and expensive to make before you ever even start machining them but are superior to castings in so many ways.

The bottom line is buying the best thing you can afford and nearly everyone but the tightest of tight-ass skinflints can relate in some way whether it's buying Nike instead of Hush Puppies, Honda instead of Hyundai, Oakleys instead of the glasses on the rounder by the cash register, Bud instead of Busch, Sevens instead of Levi's, Nordstrom instead of Sears, Michelins instead of Hankooks, Quaker Oats instead of the store brand.

Maybe it's because of quality or durability, branding, marketing, brand recognition, image, the store that sells them, reputation, styling or you just plain want it and all of those hold true with the wheels.

Don't break your budget on anything in your life, but don't skimp and pay for something truly inferior just to save a buck. Wheels are a big investment which should be given lots of thought before pulling the trigger but it's not like they wear out and need to get replaced annually.

[SR71]

$1000 a wheel? heck, I couldn't see paying $500 a wheel. but after doing some research and looking at ALOT of wheels, I own a $700 per wheel set of Rushforths.

do it right and get what you want the first time. it's much cheaper that way. everytime I "settle" for something it's wasted money. because I always end up buying what I really wanted later on.

[Bryce]

Well I just paid 1000 for all four wheels.

I really like the still and the are two piece forged wheels. not as light as others but not horrible heavy 22.5 and 25lbs each.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/09/tn_full_falcon_2-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/570153)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/09/tn_full_falcon_4-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/570155)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/09/tn_full_falcon_7-1.jpg (http://www.motortopia.com/photos/570158)

centerline wheels. 17 x 8 in the front and 17 x 9.5 in the back. Brushed face and polished hoop.

[Flash68]

^^ Now that looks like a sweet deal for a grand. And those barely weigh more than my 19" HRE's did I used to have.

[Derek69SS]

I think you just answered your own question, if you cannot notice that much of a difference....spend the money elsewhere that you might!
It wasn't my question.

FWIW, I was at RTTH6, running on $75ea steel 17x9s that weigh 40lbs each. A cone penalty on my 3rd run kept me out of the top-8 shootout. :hammer:

[317millhand]

I really didnt mean to stoke anyones fire, but I was looking more for performance input. Looking for input from drivers that switched from a cheaper wheel and can honestly say that their times increased, or road feel was better, 1/4 mile time improved, etc. etc. I am a believer in buying what you want, but I do not believe that just because something costs more it is better (take Hotchkis for example). Also, theres lots of talk about changing backspacing on these wheels or rehooping them. What does this cost? If I had lower end wheels I could buy a new wheel for a few hundered or less.

[Matt@BOS]

And while I am sure your insurance company is buying you a new wheel, you could rehoop that one for a few hundred dollars and have a nice matching spare now.

Eh, the front is a bit scratched up, mostly in the powder coat. I figured it wouldn't be worth it to have the center refinished. besides, while I'm sure it could get me around town, I would be more than a little hesitant to take it to the track.

In any case, I think it will make for the center of a cool coffee table, or at the very least the world's most expensive door stop.

Matt

[jocko124]

Pretty much the entire hobby cannot be justified due to the fact that most of these cars are 2nd, 3rd, or fourth cars not used as daily transportation. So the point is moot. As far as spending money on many parts of my car there are usually four components I look at: Quality, Safety, Function, and Aesthetics. I recently purchased a set of Rushforth Superspokes. Did I need to spend that much on a set of wheels and can I justify them due to some performance measure? Hell no! I bought them because Rushforth has a reputation for quality and because I like that particular design. As far as spending the money elsewhere---I think when you're on a budget you always have to look at the best bang for your buck. To give you an example, I would love to get my car painted, but there is no way in hell I can justify dropping $10,000 on a paint job unless I have all my suspension finished--and even then I'll need my Boss' (read: my wife's) approval. Having said that, it doesn't mean I'm gonna take it to Maaco right now, either. I'm just going to wait until I have the money to spend---which at the rate I'm going will be never.

[jknight16]

Matt, your Forgelines took that punch like a champ! I know Forgeline prides themselves on building a strong wheel but that picture is a great visual testament of that fact.

[speedshftr]

its simple the rims and tires can make or break the car.

[SR71]

Well I just paid 1000 for all four wheels.

I really like the still and the are two piece forged wheels. not as light as others but not horrible heavy 22.5 and 25lbs each.

centerline wheels. 17 x 8 in the front and 17 x 9.5 in the back. Brushed face and polished hoop.

very nice. I was kicking around the idea of a set of centerline revs before I bought my rushforths.

[Steve1968LS2]

Wheels make or break a car......

So true.. we see cool cars all the time with horid wheels..


As for cost.. to some a $1000 wheel is expensive.. to others it's dirt cheap.

Buy what you like and you can afford..

[meinthe73]

Eh, the front is a bit scratched up, mostly in the powder coat. I figured it wouldn't be worth it to have the center refinished. besides, while I'm sure it could get me around town, I would be more than a little hesitant to take it to the track.

In any case, I think it will make for the center of a cool coffee table, or at the very least the world's most expensive door stop.

Matt
No to hijack the thread but how does a claim like that work? You obviously have a lot of money in that camaro.

[WS6]

So true.. we see cool cars all the time with horid wheels..


As for cost.. to some a $1000 wheel is expensive.. to others it's dirt cheap.

Buy what you like and you can afford..

This can't be reiterated enough. It's been said multiple times in this thread already too. I was at a local car show today and saw a number of vehicles that looked great in all areas except the wheels. Too small, too narrow, old design, design that doesn't flow or accent the build, etc etc. The list goes on and on. Oh and the wiring under the hood on so many cars was crap but that's a pet peeve with me. In short, do it right the first time. You'll be happier in the end.

[Matt@BOS]

Not to hijack the thread but how does a claim like that work? You obviously have a lot of money in that camaro.

Here is a link to a thread I made about the accident and process of going through insurance: https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71356&highlight=photos+make+grown+men+cry

If you have any questions just send me a message.

Matt

[FirstGenZq8]

Well I just paid 1000 for all four wheels.

wow, 1K for forged wheels? makes you wonder why others charge 2, 3, 4, 5X as much? but, i've beaten this horse into horsey-hamburger many times over, so i'll digress...

[Bryce]

wow, 1K for forged wheels? makes you wonder why others charge 2, 3, 4, 5X as much? but, i've beaten this horse into horsey-hamburger many times over, so i'll digress...

My opinion: My wheels are a little heavy, this means less engineering time to develope a lighter wheel; therefore, less initial cost. Centerline is a desinger and manufacturer, less middlemen means less cost. A welded wheel is always cheaper than a bolted together wheel. Less machine time and less assembly time.

[formula]

another thought--what a set of wheels cost the end user isn't always a very accurate descriptor of what the wheels cost the company making them--while forgeline et al are pretty well established brands and have a strong market at their current price point, smaller companies might even be selling at a loss in an effort to establish the brand before making a profit.

[BlownYenko]

As much as wheels make the car, for the very same reason they are the easiest way to change the character of the car. As a result, I can't justify spending $1K per corner if I'm going to be out of pocket a grand or two when I change them out in a couple of years. Everything depreciates, but (at least in my experience) mid range wheels don't depreciate in value at the same rate as high end wheels. Mid range have a bigger pool of potential buyers, which keeps the price up a bit.

[Nine Ball]

If some of you are worried about your wheel choice going out of style in a few years, stick to timeless design patterns. Most of them look good forever. Good example is the Fikse FM5 wheel, which first came out almost 20 years ago (early 90's). Still looks damn good today.

Simple 5-spokes and mesh style ("BBS") patterns are timeless.

Tony

[317millhand]

These are what I chose for my 67 Chevelle (frame for now) at $1700 shipped for wheels and Nitto 555's from Driverz Inc. They are Billet Specialties ralleys. Almost the same look as the more expensive Budnik Fontanas and Schott Americanas. Centerline Retro's have the same look as well. I was after a wheel with this look and was almost ready to pull the plug on the much more expensive Budniks and discovered these advertised in a magazine.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/09/good002-1.jpg

And I think these wheels were destined to be on my 67. Billet Specialties even uses on on their T-Shirt. https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

I started this thread with questions about the more expensive wheels having a performance edge and have not been convinced of that yet. Or more so if the small edge of less unsprung weight (which may or may not be the case in all the high dollar wheels) is worth the price. However, I do agree with buying what you like and what you can afford. If the wheels I bought were twice as much and noone else made a similar wheel then I would have still bought them. I like them that much, but that was not the point of my post. But, I can settle for a minor difference if it saves me 2 grand to buy my serpentine kit with. This ground up, rotisserie, every nut and bolt stuff is getting damn expensive.

[317millhand]

Oh yeah, for anyone interested in the weight.

The fronts are 17x8 with nitto 555 tires 245/45 and weigh 42 lbs. Rears are 17x9.5 with nitto 555 tires 275/40 and weigh 51 lbs. I didnt weigh the wheels by themselves because I ordered them with the tires mounted.

[TitoJones]

You want to know how to justify it?

This is what less than a $1000 per wheel looks like:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/09/16ku8mh-1.jpg

This is what more than a $1000 per wheel looks like:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/09/1z81o2-1.jpg

/Thread

Tyler

[Flash68]

You have those backwards Tyler.

Last edited by TitoJones; 09-30-2010 at 09:54 AM.. Reason: I'm retarded

LOL

[DriverzInc]

I understand that you were asking less about looks, and more about performance. We've all read above about how its more about getting what you "want" and what you think looks best, but if you're seeking knowledge regarding why one wheel may be a performance upgrade from the next, here are some key elements to consider.

Material:
I don't think I need to go over, again, the difference between cast and forged, however the important thing to remember here is that the majority of cast wheels are heavier, and/or weaker than any fully forged and machined 6061-T6 product. So the benefits are a stronger and/or lighter wheel. Another key benefit to forged/billet over cast is in most cases the finishes are more resistant to the elements. Looking at a side by side comparison between an American Racing TT2 and a NewGen polished wheel will easily show the differences between the two polish jobs. And, 1 year from now, the billet wheel is going to still be brighter and easier to polish than the cast counterpart. That surely justifies the couple hundred dollars more a wheel to me personally, but it may not to everyone.

Weight:
Generally speaking, once piece cast wheels do tip the scales a little bit more than two piece and three piece billet wheels. Now, like anything, there will be exceptions, but again, we're looking at the wide spectrum of things here. And of course, we all know what unsprung weight can do for performance. How are some companies doing it? Let's look at a good example, Forgeline Wheels. They take the time to turn the wheel over in the mill, and lighten out the pad area to reduce weight. Brands like NewGen 3pc, and Schott also do the same. This is adding an extra operation, to their already rigrorous and time consuming machining process which ultimately dictates price. For a car trying to shave seconds of any ET on any course, any weight savings is a benefit, and at the rate unsprung weight multiplies, any reduction can be a huge benefit. In addition, some specific designs go as far as hollowing out the back side of the spokes for further weight reduction. Again, adding yet another operation in the CNC, which took time to program, engineer, set up, and machine.

Customization:
3pc wheels, like HRE, Forgeline, NewGen, etc., give you the benefit of exotic sizes, finishes, and by doing so, manufacturers have to stock front and back rimshells in every 1/2 size combo it can take to build a specific wheel. Two piece welded wheels are limited to specific sizes that one piece outers come in, and to modify a one piece outer, takes time and additional outers.

Just some food for thought, and the tip of the iceberg really, but maybe it'll answer some questions, get some thinking about the advantages and disadvantages and will aid in making an educated decision when picking wheels.

[Jarcaines]

You want to know how to justify it?

This is what less than a $1000 per wheel looks like:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/09/16ku8mh-1.jpg

This is what more than a $1000 per wheel looks like:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/09/1z81o2-1.jpg

/Thread

Tyler

Yeah, the wheels are the only difference I see....

[TitoJones]

Yeah, the wheels are the only difference I see....

I'm kidding... But to further prove my point:

Under $1000-
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/09/2799036070_513c17ba04-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/05/Img1628-1.jpg

Over $1000-
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/05/DSC01841-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/09/SuperRun2010022-1.jpg

Point made?

Tyler

[buickfunnycar.com]

Simple 5-spokes and mesh style ("BBS") patterns are timeless...

Word Tony....:cheers:

[speedshftr]

my rims were WAY UNDER 1000 per wheel.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/10/ljk-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/05/jj-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/10/iul-1.jpg

there are rushforths and i had to do a very long sidejob to get them but they look great on my car

[DarkBuddha]

Are light weight, super strong forged three piece wheels wicked? Hell yeah! Are they a good investment in a serious car? Undoubtedly. But at $1000 per wheel, I think justifying such wheels should indeed be necessary. IMHO, if a car needs more attention in other aspects before being able to take advantage of such wheels, then seriously priced, seriously hardcore wheels are as poser as calling a stock musclecar riding on 18s pro-touring. Besides, there are plenty of strong (enough), reasonably priced wheels out there that can generally accomplish the same thing. Sure, they'll all have some degree of compromise, whether it's styling, weight, durability, sizing, offset/backspacing, or availability, but most of the big wheel companies (Rota, Enkei, BBS, Team Dynamics, Compomotive, etc.) offer lighter weight, competition wheels that will do the job and provide most of the target benefits, and if they get damaged or frag'd because of going off track, curbing them, or an accident, or maybe you just want a new look, then you can still afford to replace 'em.

What I kinda hope is that there is a trickle-down effect on these wheels... 10-15 years from now when folks are running carbon composite wheels, I'll be keeping my eyes open for just the right set at a bargain price.

[John510]

Heres what 1000+ will get you. Bad A$$ !!!!!!!!

Fully justified with the instant smile I get when I see them. Wheels are what make the car. Took me forever to save for these.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/10/7242009056-1.jpg

[speedshftr]

john those feslers and my rushforths have the same principle in design but yours has more bling with the paint and polish.

[John510]

john those feslers and my rushforths have the same principle in design but yours has more bling with the paint and polish.

When I bought my wheels last year I dont think Rushforth had that design. At least I dont remember seeing that design. Otherwise I could have bought those and had them painted and saved some $$$$

[Ron.in.SoCal]

Speed - also understand that most of our wheel sponsors/vendors here charge a lot more for wheels 10" and wider. So even your wheels in an 18x12 are closer to $1000 than $500.

I happen to love Rushforth wheels and Jay's a very cool man, so this is not a knock on any vendor +/- $1k, just stating a fact about wider forged wheels...

[crustysack]

How the hell do you keep all the screw heads clean??? if I have to spend 2 hours a week on each wheel to keep em clean- I'm all set- whats the trick????

[speedshftr]

i completly understand i was just trying to show the guy on a budget he can get some decent rims without spending a ton.those fesslers are sweet by the way.i have his taillights and soon getting the door handles:cheers:

[LV42DAY]

one thing to keep in mind is that the more expensive the wheel the less chance anyone else is going to have them. personally im sick and tired of seeing torque thrust on camaros or muscle cars for that matter. why so many thrust wheels out, because they are inexpensive. $4k for a set of wheels is obviously not for the shallow pocketed.

as for weight, design of the actual wheel has a lot to do with it. obvious the more metal that is used to achieve a certain look the heavier the wheel is. i have a set of $450 (delivered to my door) 19" wheels that weigh 24.5-26 pounds each and then i had a set of $10k 19" wheels that weighed 26-28 pounds each. so price often have nothing to do with weight.

at the end of the day, its all about achieving what someone else cant, the almighty bragging right. look what i got and you dont. til this day i have never seen another car with the avus wheels i had and at $10k for a new set i dont expect to either. worst case scenario its one hell of a conversation starter, lol

[79TA97TT]

Wes, which wheel company you had problems with?
Sexy Supra Man!!

[64impala]

All that's great IF the car is driven to a level that it would make any difference. For most, I think it's just about getting the right look. That's cool too, but not at my budget level... that money is better spent in other areas where my car is lacking performance.

Well put! I agree 100%. 4000 dollar wheels on a street car is rediculous. Now....a dedicated road racing car, i can see wheels that expensive justified.

[wellis77]

Well put! I agree 100%. 4000 dollar wheels on a street car is rediculous. Now....a dedicated road racing car, i can see wheels that expensive justified.

My opinion is it depends on whether or not you can get the "look" you want with 2k wheels. We all have visions for our builds and if you can't get your "look" with 2k and the only option to get the look YOU want is 4k, then you gotta do what you gotta do. You are the one that is driving it and has to be happy staring at the wheels everytime you walk out to the car.

[Yelcamino]

I think it's more than just getting the right look. A while back a rep from Weld Wheels said the only wheels he would feel comfortable putting sticky tires on and hitting the track are Forgeline, Fikse, and HRE. When a guy that works for a wheel maker won't even use his own product, but recommends competitors for a particular use, it makes me pay attention.

[DJenkins]

The wheels make the look. I mean clean car, awesome paint and cheapo rims. Not to mention what could happen by skimping.....

[Vegas69]

That's a good point Herb. Wheels do break and I'm glad I have Forgelines on my ride due to their racing heritage.

[rrunner68]

I think the biggest thing, and it was mentioned here earlier, is the price point and justifacation. The Road Runner needs wheels and tires. But start shopping for a good set of wheels to put something bigger than a 275/40/17 on, and it gets expensive. Fast. Given the build extent of the car, and the level it's driven at, it justifies spending big money on wheels, but the thing that is in the back of my head is that unlike a majority of the cars here, I drive my car. And I don't mean, oh, I drove it to a couple of events because I'm a pro-touring guy; I drive my car, like 6 days a week. Running errands, commuting in traffic every day, going to local cruse-ins ( we have 3 a week). And guess what, I rub up on the curbs a little when I'm parallel parking, and god knows what else. I can't afford to have a spare couple wheels at the house, and wait XXweeks for a rehoop. I say run what you can afford. I bet if the people here put that same 4000.00 into a driving school instead of their wheels, the car would perform that much better.

[Flash68]

I think it's more than just getting the right look. A while back a rep from Weld Wheels said the only wheels he would feel comfortable putting sticky tires on and hitting the track are Forgeline, Fikse, and HRE. When a guy that works for a wheel maker won't even use his own product, but recommends competitors for a particular use, it makes me pay attention.

With all the safety talk surrounding our driving events lately, I have been factoring the safety component into every decision on upgrades/changes to my car, and the wheels are a big one.


I bet if the people here put that same 4000.00 into a driving school instead of their wheels, the car would perform that much better.

LOL you got that straight.

[johnny68]

well i sure dont know a whole lot but i had Sandy my wife pick the wheels and color with Jon from driverzinc advising while i was in the back shop. our wheels are rushforth night trains,which whould have been under a grand but when you go over a 10 inch in the back that adds 400 a wheel if you have a tub you need to fill it, the next is 350-375 ish due to they are fully powder coated, now with out the extras like those they would be way under a grand, but if Sandy hadnt of picked what she did neither one of us would have be happy so to me its well worth a grand a wheel and i couldnt be happier with our decision (big kudos to you Jon thank you very very much) and yes they are going on Sandys/jakes my son daily driver nova of course with full speedtech suspension because its a daily driver
john

[billyrb]

I would look at it as this:
1. wheels can make or break the car (just do a search for any donk, bubble, diddalee-doodle pimp ride and you'll see what I mean)
2. lighter and stronger = better performance and longevity of parts
3. stronger = safer, especially if you are autocrossing / racing
4. being able to change backspacing and width with a 2pc or 3pc means you can use them over and over for multiple builds or revisions to one build as time goes on, meaning you save a good bit this way

$1k per wheel on a tight / low budget car is probably out of reach of most folks. But for those building a pricey car, or one that needs to be safer than a sunday cruiser, well, that money is well spent on a quality set of rims

[Flash68]

There are plenty strong enough wheels that are safe for the track -- strong and reasonably lightweight -- that don't cost $1000 per wheel. CCW and Jongbloed come to mind and can be had for under $3000 a set.

[Bryce]

Just for comparison. My centerlines are DOT and SFI certified, both certs are rare in aftermarket wheels. I paid a grand total for all 4 wheels. They were forged billet centers welded into the hoop.

[Zachalanche]

There are plenty strong enough wheels that are safe for the track -- strong and reasonably lightweight -- that don't cost $1000 per wheel. CCW and Jongbloed come to mind and can be had for under $3000 a set.

Size comes into play. I know the Jongbloeds are just a hair under 1k per wheel in the 18X11's that I need. CCWs seem to be pretty reasonable for the larger sizes.



As far as justifying cost is concerned, it is relative to the vehicle. I refuse to spend more than $50 for anything on my 67 fairlane, but it is intentionally a rat rod. However, I have big dreams for my project car, and If I can't jsutify 4k for wheels, i should probably send everything else I have bought back. I doesn't make sense to most people, but everyone wastes money on something, and this is where mine goes.

[Flash68]

Size comes into play. I know the Jongbloeds are just a hair under 1k per wheel in the 18X11's that I need. CCWs seem to be pretty reasonable for the larger sizes.

As far as justifying cost is concerned, it is relative to the vehicle. I refuse to spend more than $50 for anything on my 67 fairlane, but it is intentionally a rat rod. However, I have big dreams for my project car, and If I can't jsutify 4k for wheels, i should probably send everything else I have bought back. I doesn't make sense to most people, but everyone wastes money on something, and this is where mine goes.

Absolutely. Big price jumps usually seem to start when you go from 17 to 18 inch.

As had been said, wheels are a big part of a car -- both aesthetically and functionally, especially if you are tracking it hard -- and an extra $1-2k can easily be justified on a $30k, 40k, 50k+ car which seems about average around here.

I have got recent quotes for 17x9 and 17x11 packages.... Yongbloed is $2800 and CCW is about $2200.

[Hydyne Motorsport]

Id just like to add one last thing which I think has not been discussed. All the reasons given can be used to explain a $4000 wheel set...

-Forged material is more expensive to begin with (also stronger and lighter to begin with).
-CNC machine time is not cheap
-Custom wheels give the look desired, and many times those wheels are low production

BUT the thing that hasn't been said is that many times a price is paid for brand name. We do custom one offs which one would think would be much more expensive than off the shelf products and yet we don't charge those prices. Big brand names have a lot extra costs attached to those wheels which fall outside of the direct cost of making the wheel. By no means am I saying their products are not top of the line, just that like lots of things out there there's and added brand name cost.

[Flash68]

Id just like to add one last thing which I think has not been discussed. All the reasons given can be used to explain a $4000 wheel set...

-Forged material is more expensive to begin with (also stronger and lighter to begin with).
-CNC machine time is not cheap
-Custom wheels give the look desired, and many times those wheels are low production

BUT the thing that hasn't been said is that many times a price is paid for brand name. We do custom one offs which one would think would be much more expensive than off the shelf products and yet we don't charge those prices. Big brand names have a lot extra costs attached to those wheels which fall outside of the direct cost of making the wheel. By no means am I saying their products are not top of the line, just that like lots of things out there there's and added brand name cost.

Good points. And since you're a sponsor, let's see some of your examples!

[go-fish]

How do I justify a $4000 set of rollers? Because I had the money and they look badazz! Plus, my wife bought the front two with a bonus from her job and I bought the rear two with a bonus from mine.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[rsk68]

I wonder what a set of these would waigh and cost in a 18x12, gona call tomorrow.

http://diamondracingwheels.com/drwcustom.html

[rrunner68]

How do I justify a $4000 set of rollers? Because I had the money and they look badazz! Plus, my wife bought the front two with a bonus from her job and I bought the rear two with a bonus from mine.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Very cool. It'll be cool to see those rolling around.

[Hydyne Motorsport]

Good points. And since you're a sponsor, let's see some of your examples!

Well Flash, here's just one example...a completely one off model we did to the customers spec. He gave us a sketch, we did the FEA to see if it was feasible, made some changes, and off we went.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/07/wortecwheels005-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/12/IMG_0790-1.jpg

When I say one off I mean just that...just this one set was made.

[johnny68]

need i say more
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif