A-Body suspension on a budget

[deadeyedck]

So i wanted to make a thread that could help some people and myself who may be looking at doing the same thing.

Car : 1970 monte carlo.

Current Setup: 427 BB, turbo 350, 3.08 gears detroit true trac, 20" rims 295 30 back, 245 35 front, poly front end bushings, moog lower BJs, new front springs. The car needs shocks badly, rear control arms and springs. front and rear sway bars could use some help. Just had alignment checked but front outer edge of the tires are wearing out due to + caster on turning and body lean from cornering. this may be able to be sorted out with some alignment and sway bar.

Usage: The car is a daily driver I would like to improve the handling a little bit yet keep a nice ride. I doubt i will ever take it to the track but it would be nice to have better handling for some fun.

Questions: I wanted to get some opinions on a low dollar suspension and alignment set up for my car. I am open to take off parts from other vehicles.

Is there any way to use taller ball joints or spindle without doing control arms to save a bit?

Alignment settings : 1.5 degrees of negative camber, 6.5 degrees of positive caster, and set the toe-in 1/8 inch.

I dont know if this alignment is possible with stock control arms but i did some research and this is a dual purpose setting for daily driving and performance.

Shocks: qa1 single adjust or ( non adjustable that would work for less?)
Springs: SPC pro touring
Sway bar Front: take off from?
Sway Bar Rear: Spohn or hellwig multi adjust
Rear control arms: Spohn upper and lower.

this would be about $1800 for the above parts
so ya thats a bit more than I wanted to spend and may not even be necessary for my plans. any suggestions would be helpful.

Some new questions:
I've been doing far to many hours of research but came across some more useful things and some more questions.

Geometry and alignment.

It seems to be that upper control arms with caster built in of the 5 degree mark in combination with a taller spindle or ball joints will provide the largest improvement in the feel of the car.

question: is a lower control arm really of much value for a non competition car? Can I just keep my lower control arm and inspect it to make sure its stable?

Rear control arms and sway bar:

the Spohn or something like them seems to be the best for the arms.

Question: Do you need a rear sway bar? I have read some topics that the rear sway bar actually adversely effects the handling. many of these large rear sway bars are because something else is actually wrong with the car.

Shocks:

I have yet to find some good alternative options of shocks. I know of qa1, vari shock, strange engineering adjustable shocks which seem good at about the same prices.

are there some good non adjustable alternatives that would work I dont want a rock hard ride just better feel and less roll and bounce?

Thanks this place is great.

[wmhjr]

Not really that important, but you might want to change your thread title to "G-body ....". Monte's are G-Body cars and not A-body. Not better or worse - just different.

[MrQuick]

Not really that important, but you might want to change your thread title to "G-body ....". Monte's are G-Body cars and not A-body. Not better or worse - just different.
naw he's good....G body des didn't start till 1982.

Good list deadeye, but since you aren't tracking the car I'd overhaul the suspension using Del a lums, you might have to buy lower arms cause you most likely have the oval bushings. Then do good springs, better shock and even better swaybars. Big block car you should have 1 1/4" fronts already.

Go tall ball joints and move that camber reading to -.08 with max castor. You'll be able to do 6.5 with aftermarket arms. Stock, not a chance. I got 4.2 out of my 70 but that was with longer upper studs.

You sure about the 20's?

.....or buy used stuff....jump on them Bilsteins and springs before I do. https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71498


Vince

[wmhjr]

naw he's good....G body des didn't start till 1982.

That's the second thing I got surprised at in 24 hours here! Having focused on Pontiacs, I just assumed that since the Monte and Grand Prix shared so much of their platform, and since the GP was a "G Body" from '69-87, the Monte was also. The Monte was the Chevy answer to the already successful Grand Prix (in 1969) which outsold the previous B Body cars by a long shot due to the added length between the cowl and the front wheels creating a unique look. I never really paid attention to whether or not the Monte was a true "G" before - never occured to me. But the Grand Prix (which I do believe shares the exact same frame as the Monte - which was called the Concours during development). The Monte was almost the opposite of the Camaro/Firebird, where Pontiac and Delorean effectively adopted the Camaro model with some very slight modifications. In this case, Delorean had just left Pontiac (after developing the Grand Prix) and moved to Chevy, where he was behind the release of the Monte.

So interesting stuff. It looks as though technically the '70 Monte is called an "A-Body Special" even though the wheelbase is different and it shares frame/suspension/chassis with the Grand Prix, which is a G Body. Crazy stuff back then!

[FULMNTE]

In terms of any suspension issues, the 70-72 Monte is definitely an A-Body, all A-Body suspension parts interchange...

The 1970 Grand Prix wheelbase/frame was 118 inches, two inches longer than the Monte....

[wmhjr]

Thanks guys! That's my trivia for today. I honestly had no idea and thought the Monte was 118" also. I thought Delorean just built the Monte on the Grand Prix wheelbase/frame.

[alowerlevel]

The montes were basically just longer A-bodys, same suspension parts as chevelle/cutlass/gto etc...

[wmhjr]

So were they 118" wheelbase - same as Grand Prix G-Body?

[alowerlevel]

http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z9887/chevrolet-monte-carlo.aspx

Fitted with the longest ever hood on a Chevrolet, the Monte Carlo rode on a 116 inch wheelbase, and was based on the A-body Chevelle platform with 6 footer hood. Though any Chevelle engine was available, all Monte Carlos came standard with at least a 350 cubic inch V8 engine. To create a more muscular appearance, bulges were added to the fenders. Except for the fake wood trim, the Monte Carlo shared basically the same dashboard as the Chevelle. The base price was $3,123, and cost more $218 more than the Chevelle Malibu.

[alowerlevel]

...

[Zanie]

Now that we are sure it's an A body....

I'm completely in agreement with MrQuick.
For my 71 chevelle I went with the SCandC stage 2
SPC adjustable upper arms and tall upper and lower ball joints. I also added a Hellwig 1-5/16 hollow bar.
I set my caster about 5 and my camber about 1/4 neg. with toe at 1/16 in. I cannot believe how well my car handles.

I also went with CPP tubular lower arms, but only because I got a good deal on them.

That front end improvement was the best money I spent this year.

I could have put in more caster, but I didn't have any time built in in case it caused a problem (I was told if you go 6 degrees the sway bar links might bounce on the tie rods). I didn't have time to find out then (June), and haven't had time since.

The tall lower ball joints are gonna drop your front end about 5/8 - 3/4 inch.

You can save yourself some $$ by finding a 75 -81 trans am 1-1/4 front sway bar I'm 99% sure they work.

I'm purchasing the Hellwig adjustable rear this winter and replacing my stock type rear sway bar.

[taz]

Pick up a speedway motors catalog upper and lower tubular control arms are cheap as with coilover shocks and so on . Also there is a cirlce track outfit that sells taller spindles they have them form 7.5 to 9 inch tall . Circle track and stock car stuff is a great inexpensive alternative and they build that stuff to handle lots of abuse . The company that sells the spindles is coleman racing they also have coilovers brakes heim ends for sway bar rack and pinon steering and control arms . heres a link of someone that used these parts http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/featuredvehicles/65158_1970_chevrolet_chevelle/index.html
Tim

[wmhjr]

http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z9887/chevrolet-monte-carlo.aspx

Thanks! Shaking my head that for all these years I thought the Monte shared the frame with the Grand Prix..... Doh!

[Skip Fix]

You know looking at that article and those spindles, or the old Stock Car Products Herb Adams used, current NASCAR spindles and the massive brakes they all fit in a 15" wheel why those don't get looked at know a days?

[deadeyedck]

I've been doing far to many hours of research but came across some more useful things and some more questions.

Geometry and alignment.

It seems to be that upper control arms with caster built in of the 5 degree mark in combination with a taller spindle or ball joints will provide the largest improvement in the feel of the car.

question: is a lower control arm really of much value for a non competition car? Can I just keep my lower control arm and inspect it to make sure its stable?

Rear control arms and sway bar:

the Spohn or something like them seems to be the best for the arms.

Question: Do you need a rear sway bar? I have read some topics that the rear sway bar actually adversely effects the handling. many of these large rear sway bars are because something else is actually wrong with the car.

Shocks:

I have yet to find some good options of shocks. I know of qa1, vari shock, strange engineering adjustable chocks which seem good at about the same prices.

are there some good non adjustable alternatives that would work I dont want a rock hard ride just better feel and less roll and bounce?

Thanks this place is great.

[406 Q-ship]

A Monte is a G-body even back in the 1970's just like a Grand Prix, and they both ride on the same wheel base. The Grand Prix uses all the A-body suspension too.

Back to the question at hand, I would invest in a good set of swaybars (1 1/4" off a 1978-81 Trans Am are perfect) a stock 7/8" rear sway bar (unless you can fine one of the ultra rare 1" 442 bars). Invest in a good set of Shocks like Edelbrocks IAS (ride better) or a set of Bilsteins (ride a bit harder). The alignment seems kind of out of wack, -1 1/2° Camber is way to much for a street driver and will kill tires FAST. If you drive the car really hard -1/2° or -1/4° for a cruiser. Those caster numbers I find hard to believe, most A-bodies are very lucky to get +3.0° and +6.0° is what a modern Corvette has, there just isn't that much adjustment in the front of these cars for that number, I would get that rechecked.

[alowerlevel]

and they both ride on the same wheel base.
:hmm:
Grand prix = 118"wb
Monte = 116"wb

[deadeyedck]

Those caster numbers I find hard to believe, most A-bodies are very lucky to get +3.0° and +6.0° is what a modern Corvette has, there just isn't that much adjustment in the front of these cars for that number, I would get that rechecked.

I got these numbers from an article i read.


Alignment
"To properly align a car, you first need to determine the real usage of the vehicle. It should always be done with the simulated weight of the driver in the car. McGaffin intends on driving his car a lot on the street and taking it to the autocross, but doesn't want to have to switch his alignment back and forth. I've been carefully monitoring tire wear on all the street and race cars that we build, and have come up with some great all-around specs that work well on a dual-purpose car like this Olds. On a setup like this, I like to dial in 1.5 degrees of negative camber, 6.5 degrees of positive caster, and set the toe-in 1/8 inch. I like a lot of caster for a couple reasons. It gives great steering wheel feel. It prevents the car from climbing the sides of uneven roads. It counteracts negative camber on the inside tire when turning, and increases negative camber on the outside tire when turning.
"After assembling the suspension, the caster and camber were almost perfect, while the toe only needed some minor adjusting to get it close. I only needed to remove one shim to tweak the camber and set the toe, and we were done. I see lots of guys camber in the front ends over 3 degrees and run toe out at the autocross, and while it does help the cornering a bunch, it will just grind the rubber off the inside edges of the tires when driving around town. There is always some give and take when it comes to alignment, however, my '68 Chevelle tips the scales at 4,000 pounds with me in it, and I've run these same specs as in the Olds for over 6,000 miles this summer. I've road raced, autocrossed, and drag raced on a set of R-compound tires, and they still have plenty of tread left." -Brent Jarvis

Tire Pressure
"Road racing and autocrossing A-Bodies for years has revealed that you need a huge difference in front-to-rear tire pressure. A-Bodies are front-heavy and almost always have smaller tires on the front. Consequently, we preset the tire pressures at 37 psi up front and 32 psi in the rear. Autocross will always use a little less air pressure than when road racing because you don't have the same high-speed lateral g-forces on the tires. Tire pressure is one of the best adjusting points on the car when on the autocross. As a general rule of thumb, if the car is experiencing oversteer, either lower the rear pressure or raise the front pressure. If the car is experiencing understeer, either raise the rear pressure or lower the front pressure. This is assuming you have the car dialed in fairly close to ideal, and you're watching the tires closely for even wear and heat transfer across the tread." -Brent Jarvis

Corner Weights
"After setting the alignment and tire pressure, the corner weights can be dialed in. If a car's corner weights are out of whack, you'll end up with a car that turns in one direction better than the other. That's because the tires and sway bars will be loaded unevenly. It makes a huge difference if you set up the corner weights right, and you will definitely turn faster lap times. That said, it is impossible to get any lefthand or righthand drive car perfect unless you build it from scratch with weight placement in mind. With the exception of a select few high-end sports cars, all cars are front heavy, with most of that weight biased toward the left side. The weight of the driver, steering wheel and column, steering box, brake master cylinder and booster, power steering pump, gauges, foot pedals, and sometimes the battery all add up to one big unbalanced mess. As a suspension tuner, it's our mission to get these weights as close as we can without making the car lean to one side or the other. The beauty of coilovers is that they allow you to fine-tune the corner weights, raising or lowering one corner of the car individually." -Brent Jarvis

[shep]

I would do a sc&c stage II plus kit. 9 x5 inch Circle track springs with adjusters. 850-950 lbs range is probaly good for the big block. You could do afco street stock shocks heavy valved. You will probably need to buy new lowers because of the oval bushings but they can be purchased new from speedway. Get them plate them and install Del Alum bushings.

[MrQuick]

I've been doing far to many hours of research but came across some more useful things and some more questions.

Geometry and alignment.

It seems to be that upper control arms with caster built in of the 5 degree mark in combination with a taller spindle or ball joints will provide the largest improvement in the feel of the car.

question: is a lower control arm really of much value for a non competition car? Can I just keep my lower control arm and inspect it to make sure its stable?

Rear control arms and sway bar:

the Spohn or something like them seems to be the best for the arms.

Question: Do you need a rear sway bar? I have read some topics that the rear sway bar actually adversely effects the handling. many of these large rear sway bars are because something else is actually wrong with the car.

Shocks:

I have yet to find some good options of shocks. I know of qa1, vari shock, strange engineering adjustable chocks which seem good at about the same prices.

are there some good non adjustable alternatives that would work I dont want a rock hard ride just better feel and less roll and bounce?

Thanks this place is great.
to answer your question....yes, you will need a rear sway bar...yes.

[FULMNTE]

A Monte is a G-body even back in the 1970's just like a Grand Prix, and they both ride on the same wheel base.

No, they DO NOT!!!!

Like previously said, Monte 116", GP 118"

[MrQuick]

take it easy guys, this is about the OP's set up and not trying to make someone understand the misconseptions on the A monte. Once they understand it will be clear to them also. You have to be a real Monte head to see it.

Vince

[taz]

I looked it up last night 9 inch spindles 125 each afco tubular lower control arms 220 each upper control arms 70 each torsion sway bar with heim links 130 springs 50 . Coleman racing products . The spindle is available with a stock type snout set up for impala brake or camaro 1le brake
http://www.colemanracinghttps://www.pro-touring.com/forum/images/full/19971.jpg https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/images/misc/shim.gifSpindle Upright, Impala, 8 Tall
Product Code:19975Stock 0 US$125.35
[URL="https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/shoptellafriend.asp?id=3688"]Tell a friend about this site or product (http://www.colemanracing.com/) Spindle Upright, Impala, 8 Tall

[MrQuick]

I wouldn't use that stuff on the street.


Vince

[T-CHRGD]

Now that we are sure it's an A body....

I'm completely in agreement with MrQuick.
For my 71 chevelle I went with the SCandC stage 2
SPC adjustable upper arms and tall upper and lower ball joints. I also added a Hellwig 1-5/16 hollow bar.
I set my caster about 5 and my camber about 1/4 neg. with toe at 1/16 in. I cannot believe how well my car handles.


The Best First upgrade is the SC&C Stage 2 kit. Correcting all the front suspension goemetry deficiencies would be the biggest improvement you could make. I run it with the stock lower A-arms on my Buick ("G" body)
I would put springs, shocks, rear lower trailing arms next.
As the budget allows, work your way up to better sway bars, upper trailing arms, tubular lower A-arms, ........
That's the good thing about suspensions, it's not like a motor or a paint job, you can do it bit by bit if that is all your budget allows :)

[Bryce]

I wouldn't use that stuff on the street.


Vince

Im curious, Why not? I have not investigated the circle track spindles very much.

[taz]

We ran modified and a sportman car the circle track stuff is well made strong and has been tested in extreme enviroments . These cars have taken massive hits extreme load force and reapeated high speed . On the sportman it had same spindles for 3 seasons the beauty of the spindle is you can change the snout rather than replacing the spindles and where do you think howe made its name ball joints on circle track cars .
The torsion sway bar has been used for years on circle track and scca cars . Think about almost constant load on the right side of car on high bank tracks at 160 mph for anywhere from 100 laps to 250 . Do you think they would put weak parts on those cars . Suspension failure at 160mph gets you dead .
Tim

[Bryce]

Thanks Taz,

I agree with you. They handle the abuse for sure. I was curious about the reason Vince had against street use.

[406 Q-ship]

The question of the A-body or not, does not matter. The suspension set up I decribed is correct and cheaper than buying from the aftermarket. I am not knocking the pieces on the market currently (hell I had a hand the design of some of it) just that for a cheap investment on shocks and swaybars off of other GM models. I stand by what I said for the alignment to the letter, I have been working with the A-body since the 1980's and can tell you that unless some major surgery is done to the front suspension mounts (or change to the upper control arms) that a A-body will not have 6.0° positive castor, no way no how!

I may be mistaken on the GP wheelbase but it does not change the fact all the suspension parts from an A-body will work on a GP or Monte. I own a 71 Monte and had a 70 Monte back before I could drive (legally...lol), I have a friend with a 1970 GP that I spent more time under than I care to admit too.

[MrQuick]

Im curious, Why not? I have not investigated the circle track spindles very much.
Don't get me wrong, we have used them too for street use and I am not knocking them. Your average track car that uses these parts get inspected and wear tested on a regular basis. Breakage on a track is still in a controlled enviroment.

Your average street driver gets an inspection on the average of once every 6 months. Most barely check their own oil. I see this all the time. Most of your failures would most likely be on a highway off ramp or twisty two lane back road. Not good.

If I was building a customer car that sees 85% street duty I'd stick with the factory/street tested stuff. There are those customers whom I adore that would be trusted to run track stuff on the street but its up on jacks getting tweeked often.

call me chicken little but I advise on the side of caution.

Vince

[taz]

http://v8tvshow.com/content/view/133/43/ere This stuff is pennies on the dollar compared to some of the aftermarket stuff .


According to Jeff Schwartz, "This is a complete bolt in chassis that goes from front to rear on the car. It’s not just a front sub frame or some sub frame connectors. This chassis completely bolts to the bottom of the car, and the cool thing is it doesn’t require any modifications to the original tub of the car. It attaches to the front in the area where the front subframe mounts are and then it attaches to the rear of the car inboard of the frame rails.
The full chassis design is going to increase the stability and the stiffness of the car because Camaros didn’t have a full frame. The other nice thing about this chassis is it uses race car parts for the suspension pieces."
"We worked with Coleman Racing (http://www.colemanracing.com) as the main source for the majority of the suspension pieces – they make a lot of different race car parts for NASCAR and other circle track race cars. This time, we’re test fitting everything to see if we have all the right goodies, and it will all come apart again for paint, but it’s pretty exciting to see the chassis take shape."
The philosophy behind the suspension and the chassis on this Camaro is to have race car like performance but still look like a stock 69 Camaro. First up are the tubular upper control arms. The Schwartz precision chassis comes prewelded with all the tabs needed for all the suspension points.
Here’s a trick for getting good Grade 8 hardware on the cheap. If you can find a local Farm and Fleet or farm type supply shop, you’ll find Grade 8 hardware sold by the pound as apposed to by the individual bolt. You can realistically can get all the front hardware at a farm supply store for probably 30 or 40 bucks if you bought it by the pound.
The heart of the front suspension is this custom made tubular control arm. It’s made from mild steel and it’s fixture welded for precision. It has fully adjustable spherical rod ends on both ends that can be adjusted to set the alignment specs. It’s got a C&C machined cross brace to keep it nice and rigid. And then it’s got a screw in ball joint on the other side. Although this is specific to this car, this is basically patterned after all the race car components that you watch on the big super speedways on Sunday afternoons.
"The lower control arm assembly consists of two pieces, a strut rod and a lower control arm. The strut rod design uses a clevis and then spherical rod ends on both sides with a press-in ball joint. Essentially, it’s no different than the Tran-Am race cars use… again, all race car stuff adapted to the street."
The next component in the front suspension is the spindle. This is also another basically off the shelf race-car piece. It’s made by Coleman Racing and it is essentially a GM (http://www.gm.com) full size 1970’s