Sorry Pontiac Purists......I'm going to cut the hell out of MY real GTO

[Blue67gto]

Say good bye to the 455, I've decided I'm going LS motor and 6 speed. Pontiac purist be damned. It is a real GTO and I'm going to ruin it. I just had to tell someone. That is all.

[LateNight72]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/08/cool_story_bro-1.jpg

[wmhjr]

No problem from my perspective. Have at it and enjoy! Post pics!

[Larry69GTO]

I just boought a 69 GTO with the same LS2 and 6 spd. Project is not complete but looks awesome so far!! Good luck...What are you planning with the gauges? Old school or new?

[Blue67gto]

No problem from my perspective. Have at it and enjoy! Post pics!

I didn't think i would have any objection here.....

I was just getting some crap from some local gto guys.....

I guess it was a mini vent.:smoke:

on another note my plans call for an Aluminum motor. I'm going to start with a basic swap and get it running. After working out the bugs I would like to build a stroker motor to 400ci to pay homage to the original displacement. I'm still debating brakes and suspension. I'd love a schwartz chassis, but that's still under review by the treasury department. :nopity:I'm also looking at the stuff carried by SC&C and thinking about a truck arm swap, though I'm just starting to research that one.

Since :postpics:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/08/gtosmallmagnuson111-1.jpg

[Blue67gto]

I just boought a 69 GTO with the same LS2 and 6 spd. Project is not complete but looks awesome so far!! Good luck...What are you planning with the gauges? Old school or new?

I like the A/M cobalt gauges, But I would want to mount them behind the stock panel. I'm not to sure about those yet.

Also I have looked into having the stock rally gauges converted to work with the LS motor. Mine are pretty much only good for parts and it's cheaper to have them converted to work with the LS than restored to stock! I'm probably going to go that route.

[Larry69GTO]

Nice .....looks good! I have wildwood disc all around...and air ride suspension...both look great!

[critter]

Uuuuummmmm!

I'm telling!

(Your car. Do what you want. So says the guy with the 74SD TA)

[Ishmael]

You should consider shipping the 455 to me cheap. I'm not a purist but I really wish I had a pontiac in a pontiac. I'm not planning on going around any corners too quickly. That said the 455 isn't original to your car so the only person to care what is in it is you. You aren't the first and won't be the last.

[Blue67gto]

You should consider shipping the 455 to me cheap. I'm not a purist but I really wish I had a pontiac in a pontiac. I'm not planning on going around any corners too quickly. That said the 455 isn't original to your car so the only person to care what is in it is you. You aren't the first and won't be the last.

Sorry, but I'll be keeping it for another project.

[Zanie]

I didn't think i would have any objection here.....
I'm also looking at the stuff carried by SC&C and thinking about a truck arm swap, though I'm just starting to research that one.





I'm very VERY pleased with the final result of my SC&C (stage 2) & Hellwig products. You need to do a little research before pulling the trigger. do plenty of searches, and read all the threads (ie:Paint the upper shafts & understand the spring height-tall lower ball joint-lower control arm interface).

truck arm? I myself wouldn't consider that, heck the Roadster shop guys took the truck arm suspension out of their truck!
Not to mention, your hands are tied to side exit exhaust.

Sounds like it'll be cool. And turn-key reliability is nice too.

In high school my buddy's gold '67 GTO was always breaking down.
He used to say (about his own Goat).....
GTO stands for:
Gets There Ocassionally
or
Get Tools Out


Have fun with it!

[mc84_zz4]

More taste!
Less Filling!..
More taste!
Less filling!

The LS series are an awesome choice.
Go for it! it's YOUR car.

[moreHP]

Your car and your time, effort, and money. The purist can stick it!

[buickfunnycar.com]

They made a million of 'em...your car,your choice...no arguements here.

[twosaturns]

Your car and your time, effort, and money. The purist can stick it!
you reminded me of "skidmarks on my heart" by the Go-Go's; the line is "spend all your time and money, on that Pontiac GTO pile"

ok, I'm an '80's music geek, sorry.

[68Formula]

They made a million of 'em...your car,your choice...no arguements here.

I wish. They'd be a heck of a lot cheaper. Sorry, only 81,722 made in 1967. Maybe if you count total production in the last 45 years.

[Bill Howell]

Really? You would actually pull a 455 out of a GTO and put in an LS?

SHAME, SHAME, what is the world coming to? I hope you reconsider.....

One thing is for sure, you won't be the first to just ruin a GTO!!!!!

[DocJr]

I can understand your rant. And I do agree with others, it is your car, do what you want with it.

I'm definitely not a purist, but I still dislike the idea of putting an LS in something besides a Chevy.

Never understood it, never will I guess.

At any rate, let the cutting begin!

[Keith]

I have been tempted to plan the same thing in my build, but then I just can not get over the pride of having a bad ass Pontiac motor in my GTO.
Hope you are happy with it! It will be a great ride either way.

[twosaturns]

if money were no object I think a R07 (GM NASCAR engine) would be a fun, impractical conversation starter.

[taz]

Take a 12 mpg car install an ls engine get 20 plus mpg and more horsepower oh and you can drive it out of town or even across the country reliably . HMM tough choice .
By the way my car is a 66 el camino a 66 gto was stripped to build it . Mine has the 389 in it now will 375 horsepower 9 mpg . Its a no brainer unless you got a trailer queen .

[DocJr]

375 Horses with 9mpg. You sure it's not blown up?

They make fuel injection systems for a pontiac, that'll boost it a few mpg's...

Any engine will have power if you build them right, you don't have to have an LS for power. And on the same note, any engine is reliable if you build them right...

[taz]

4.88 gears and i wasnt bench racing being consevative on power .

[AtomicFirebird]

You know, I meet Dr. Jamie Meyers and we talked and he asked if I was looking for an engine for my 68 Firebird and I said, if it was a Pontiac then yes, I am not putting not a Chevy motor in my car it wouldn't look right. He said, the LS engine is not a Chevy engine, it's a GM production engine or GMPP. No matter if you like it or not, both cars at one time where produced by GM not Chevy or Pontiac. It made me think, maybe he was right it shouldn't matter with the LS engine, it was in some of the newer Pontiac cars at the time we spoke. *He made me rethink things, we (all of us) GM owners need to stop looking at GM production cars as your brand and my brand and start seeing it as our brand, we wouldn't have to explain or vent about putting a GM Production engine or GMPP motor in our cars. Now I still think it doesn't look right to see a Chevy motor in Pontiac but I now understand sometimes money and other things play a factor in what we are able to buy or get at that time when we need a engine.
Every 1st of the month, the Town of Jupiter, in Florida, has a car show that lines the streets with every make and model. The guys I have met, which is by the way not many, all see Mopar as Mopar not dodge, chrylser or plymouth, of course there are those few who don't. We GM guys and girls can do the same right? It's a rhetorical question.
If we are Pro-touring our cars, then it shouldn't matter if a LS engine is in whatever car because we have changed so much orginal equipment to non-GM equipment. Most of us only have very few GM parts anyway. We use, have or ask for non- GM aftermarket parts all the time. If someone is restoring a car, ok I understand Chevy in a Chevy and a Pontiac in a Pontiac. Maybe I am wrong, but it shouldn't matter what an LS motor goes in as long as it goes in a GM production car, heck I will say any classic car because of what the Legislators are doing and trying to do. Like every one is saying, it's your money spend it how you want to to spend it. I wish I had the money to rebuild one myself or buy one on the cheap. **

By the way, this is not a slam on anyone.

[crustysack]

65 GTO 02 LS1 installed, Im happy and I'm not even done yet:cheers: I went with Autometer Phantom gauges in a custom carbon dash.

[Nemesis RR]

I can understand your rant. And I do agree with others, it is your car, do what you want with it.

I'm definitely not a purist, but I still dislike the idea of putting an LS in something besides a Chevy.

Never understood it, never will I guess.

At any rate, let the cutting begin!

I have an LS2 in my 2006 GTO so why not. Then again an original 455 would be real hard for me to pull out.

[Mr. Anderson]

That sounds like an incredibly bad idea.

But its your car!

And that stuff about all Chevys and BOP's simply being "GM" cars seems ridiculous. IN my opinion...

[AtomicFirebird]

Edited because I wrote before I thought

[Mr. Anderson]

Edited for content to please AtomicFirebird, but the opening post says "purist be damned" so I fail to see how my statement was any worse.

No one is being bashed. You shared your opinion, I shared mine.

[Blue67gto]

That sounds like an incredibly bad idea.

But its your car!

And that stuff about all Chevys and BOP's simply being "GM" cars seems ridiculous. IN my opinion...

Why do you think it is a bad Idea?

[Blue67gto]

Let's be nice fella's. I'm not offended by anothers opinion that it might be a bad idea.

[Blue67gto]

65 GTO 02 LS1 installed, Im happy and I'm not even done yet:cheers: I went with Autometer Phantom gauges in a custom carbon dash.

I really like your gauges.

[Blue67gto]

I can understand your rant. And I do agree with others, it is your car, do what you want with it.

I'm definitely not a purist, but I still dislike the idea of putting an LS in something besides a Chevy.

Never understood it, never will I guess.

At any rate, let the cutting begin!

what if it is out of a 04-06 GTO?

[Blue67gto]

Really? You would actually pull a 455 out of a GTO and put in an LS?

SHAME, SHAME, what is the world coming to? I hope you reconsider.....

One thing is for sure, you won't be the first to just ruin a GTO!!!!!

the 455 is starting to need some work...that's the main reason I am considering the swap.

[Blue67gto]

if money were no object I think a R07 (GM NASCAR engine) would be a fun, impractical conversation starter.

if money was no object I would get a Indian Adventures Pontiac aluminum block.

[Mr. Anderson]

I have zero problem with LS engines, would love to have one myself. I also don't have a problem with putting them into non-Chevrolet vehicles. And of course I realize this board is not about originality or restorations...

However, if you are set on having an LS engine in a '67 Pontiac, it would be better (again, in my opinion) to take a Lemans or Tempest and have your fun. Swap the hood, grill, quarter panels and taillights and you've got a lookalike which is really all you'd have after the heart transplant. Legit GTO's (or 442s or GS's, etc.) of any year are not a dime a dozen and while they don't all need to be 100-point restored, should at least have their integrity maintained. And considering the aftermarket that is available for Pontiac engines (and they really aren't that much more expensive than small blocks) it really seems like change for the sake of change to me.

Another point which is entirely dependent on your audience, is that the value is out the window. Now sure, if the car is fully customized and built to an incredible level of detail then you can get some money back out of it. But there will always be someone looking for a legitimate original GTO...cars who's value continues to escalate when someone seriously dilutes an original.

[DocJr]

lol, I don't think we should slam anybody, this is a discussion board, so we're discussing this topic lol

Nemesis RR, let's face it, your GTO is a 2006, it doesn't nearly have the reputation Pontiac used to have. Any new GM is simply that, GM...

...just like Olds..Olds used to have their own engines, same with Pontiac and Buick. GM's wings slowly grew bigger over the years.

AtomicFirebird, I thought the LSs were basically newly designed BBCs.. maybe, maybe not.

I don't think you have to be a purist to want the same brand of powerplant in your car...if so, then I guess I'm a purist. All that I was asking is why? No one ever gives me valid points when I ask this question. I always come to the conclusion that it's out of ease. I come from a family that likes Oldsmobiles, many people in our area can't keep an Olds engine together, I guess they don't know how to do it. It's easier for them to buy a crate, then to continue socking money into something they can't build. Dad's 455 has lasted 11 years now...pushing close to 525 horses...it's about time to go in a freshen everything up, but we've never had problems with it. We can go on a 4 hour trip and only fill up once...and..she only costed about 4 grand to build (That's just parts and machine work)

So like I stated before...I don't get it, I guess I never will. I'll write it down as a new "It" thing...maybe it's the high tech craze...maybe it's a PT thing....Doh!:hammer:

[DocJr]

I have zero problem with LS engines, would love to have one myself. I also don't have a problem with putting them into non-Chevrolet vehicles. And of course I realize this board is not about originality or restorations...

However, if you are set on having an LS engine in a '67 Pontiac, it would be better (again, in my opinion) to take a Lemans or Tempest and have your fun. Swap the hood, grill, quarter panels and taillights and you've got a lookalike which is really all you'd have after the heart transplant. Legit GTO's (or 442s or GS's, etc.) of any year are not a dime a dozen and while they don't all need to be 100-point restored, should at least have their integrity maintained. And considering the aftermarket that is available for Pontiac engines (and they really aren't that much more expensive than small blocks) it really seems like change for the sake of change to me.

Another point which is entirely dependent on your audience, is that the value is out the window. Now sure, if the car is fully customized and built to an incredible level of detail then you can get some money back out of it. But there will always be someone looking for a legitimate original GTO...cars who's value continues to escalate when someone seriously dilutes an original.

Now see, I disagree with that...A real GTO means nothing to me. I just posted a little bit about Dad's Olds....it's a real '68 442 Sports Coupe (Post car, one of about 4100).

Like others, I don't care how much you cut up, just keep the engine brand specific, there's nothing wrong with a "Built" Pontiac 455. Build it up huge man! They can provide big numbers....

[Mr. Anderson]

Now see, I disagree with that...A real GTO means nothing to me. I just posted a little bit about Dad's Olds....it's a real '68 442 Sports Coupe (Post car, one of about 4100).

Like others, I don't care how much you cut up, just keep the engine brand specific, there's nothing wrong with a "Built" Pontiac 455. Build it up huge man! They can provide big numbers....

Well thats kinda the point I was making. Keep the engine in a GTO a Pontiac...I don't care how much it is modified, but keep it all Poncho.

[formula]

A quandary for you all:

My car came from the factory with a chevy 350, 4-barrel q-jet, and Saginaw 4-speed. I have the build sheet, window sticker, and pictures from the original owner to prove this.

So, then, what engine type is "correct" for my car? The engine it was originally built with, or the commonly accepted "oem" choice?

[DocJr]

Right on Man! :twothumbs

[Mr. Anderson]

So, then, what engine type is "correct" for my car? The engine it was originally built with, or the commonly accepted "oem" choice?

honestly, anything made after '72 is fair game...put an ecotech in it if you want :smoke:

[AtomicFirebird]

Mr. Anderson what you stated makes good sense. I did not mean to step on your post earlier maybe I was hurt. I was stating that Dr. Meyers spoke to me and made to think. I still have my 400 block which I am about to paint Pontiac Metallic Blue. I am so tired of looking for books that can't tell me how to rebuild my Pontiac motor. While there are Chevy, Ford and Mopar have how to build, rebuild and so on.

DocJr, I think you are right, as for me, it would have been out of ease for me. In the future if my Pontiac motor broke down, I was thinking it would be easier to find a LS, which is a modified LT1, for very cheap and rebuild it myself. Machine shops cost a lot of money, if they made a book on how to build Pontiac motors I would stay with the Pontiac motor. I know Pontiac made great motors and very good low end power, I just want the knowledge.

[Blue67gto]

The main reasons I am thinking about the LS over the pontiac are.

1) After 40 years and 100,000 miles the 455 needs a rebuild. So I have to do something. I really want to lighten up the weight over the front end..... Aluminum sounds enticing.

2) Regardless of what motor it has I want a few things: Fuel injection, 6 speed, light weight as possible, serpentine belt....blah,blah,blah. When I start thinking about adding these to a pontiac motor I start thinking about how I could have all that in a modern LS powertrain package.

Correct me if I am wrong, this is just my opinion. While I should be able to make similar power with both engines, shouldn't the modern power plant benefit from the R & D invested over the last 30 years?

or am I just on the band wagon?

[Blue67gto]

Machine shops cost a lot of money, if they made a book on how to build Pontiac motors I would stay with the Pontiac motor. I know Pontiac made great motors and very good low end power, I just want the knowledge.

Ask and you shall receive

http://www.amazon.com/How-Build-Performance-Pontiac-Design/dp/1884089674

[AtomicFirebird]

Blue67got That is a great book and I have it. It gives great info on what to buy and the awsome combos for pontiac engines. I have the new LS how to and I mean it shows you how to rebuild a motor. Jim Hands book does not show that and it is missing a lot of steps. I like the book but I am a visual person and need to see the build along with the writing.

Got this email two days ago from Mr. Johnson S A Design publishing

C. Goodman, we are currently working on a How to Rebuild the Pontiac V-8 engine for our Workbench Series. The book is scheduled to be released in May 2011,
so you'll have to wait a little bit longer, but it will be worth the wait.

[Blue67gto]

Blue67got That is a great book and I have it. It gives great info on what to buy and the awsome combos for pontiac engines. I have the new LS how to and I mean it shows you how to rebuild a motor. Jim Hands book does not show that and it is missing a lot of steps. I like the book but I am a visual person and need to see the build along with the writing.

Got this email two days ago from Mr. Johnson S A Design publishing

C. Goodman, we are currently working on a How to Rebuild the Pontiac V-8 engine for our Workbench Series. The book is scheduled to be released in May 2011,
so you'll have to wait a little bit longer, but it will be worth the wait.

Oh! I understand. I guess it can be intimidating. I just did my first ford 460 and that was a little different.

[MrQuick]

who cares Blue.... do what makes you happy...just don't paint it mystic purple with rocket launchers for head lights....well, those would be cool in traffic, but never mind about that.

Say good bye to a bazzilion extra lbs and terrible gas mileage.
vince

[DocJr]

Correct me if I am wrong, this is just my opinion. While I should be able to make similar power with both engines, shouldn't the modern power plant benefit from the R & D invested over the last 30 years?

or am I just on the band wagon?


I don't know, I'm not an egineer. I look at it this way...you said your 455 has over 100,000 miles, and lasted 40 years. That's enough for me.

Sure, R&D gave you a lighter engine, and fuel economy...but then again, they had aluminum engines in the 60's.....

Research and Development hasn't improved that much...

But see, we're talking about a V8 from the General. R&D has created sooooo much, look at the Veyron's W-16...that's a work of art.

Are you on the band wagon? That's up to you to decide lol

[wmhjr]

The good thing is that we have choices that we can make - where it used to be a pretty slim set of options.

Traditional pontiac standard blocks are awesome motors. Stump pulling torque - and yes, they can be built to rev. Since Jim Hand published that book, lots more in the way of options have popped up. You'd do better by talking to an experienced recent poncho builder. So many more roller cam options, rockers, way more heads, much better porting capabilities, aftermarket blocks and the list goes on. I'm really loving my powerplant.

OTOH, the LS is pretty hard to argue with. You can make the same power with better fuel economy and more streetable manners and less weight.

You have to figure out what you're trying to do first. I wanted a traditional look, sound and feel in a much improved car so I stuck with Pontiac power. Another option would have been more of a practical performance build, and I thought of doing LS myself. Whatever you do, just do it because it's what you want. Pontiac purists hate some of what I've done too, and I could care less. They can build their own car. I built mine for me - not them.

[DocJr]

Great response wmhjr,

You brought up a good point too, the aftermarket does so much these days, so much, that you have to question the parts your putting in lol

Sure, I'm keeping the Olds 455 that's going in my '69, but how much of it is going to be Olds? practically none of it! The block will be the only thing. Aluminum heads, intake, chevy rods...the list goes on haha

All in all, you are right, it's your car, do what you will man!

I'm done haha:cheers:

[Roadbuster]

You have to figure out what you're trying to do first. I wanted a traditional look, sound and feel in a much improved car so I stuck with Pontiac power. Another option would have been more of a practical performance build, and I thought of doing LS myself. Whatever you do, just do it because it's what you want. Pontiac purists hate some of what I've done too, and I could care less. They can build their own car. I built mine for me - not them.

wmhjr has it here. Build what you want for yourself. If you are doing this for an investment or to sell quickly there are other things to consider.
Best of luck!

[JJEH]

Nice Project!

Keep us posted and send looots of pictures :)

[Blue67gto]

wmhjr has it here. Build what you want for yourself. If you are doing this for an investment or to sell quickly there are other things to consider.
Best of luck!

Definitely no investment here. It's not a high option car and it has a NOM&Trans. I bought this car to drive the wheels off of. I want a nice car with a high attention to detail, but finished and engineered as more of a daily driver/oem style more than a show rig. More paint, less chrome. I do plan on putting 5,000-8,000 miles a year on it.

I had a 67 tempest convertible and a 67 lemans before I got the GTO I've had it for almost ten years now too. It came out of a barn in boxes..... I'm just now beginning to realize the dreams I had for it when I was 17. It's not going anywhere, unless I wreck it or I am dead.

[crustysack]

my 2 cents- fuel injection +,reliability+,weight savings+, computer diagnostic +,availability of parts +, availability of after market performance parts +, what the "purist" think- who cares. this is the pro touring site not the concours restoration site. I known many "purists" who cringe at the sight of a 60's muscle car on 18" wheels, or one not painted the "correct" color. It's your car do what you want, you can"t please everyone, so do what makes you happy.

[pggto]

My 2 cents as a GTO freak, its your car do what ya want and enjoy. I've just started to do some modern updates to my 70 Convert, I plan on keeping the stock look and Pontiac engine, but the wheels and suspension is another thing. My car is not a #'s car anymore, so I feel I can play with it as I want, even though they only made 3600 of them. With my car as long as its only a bolt on item I can change it and put it back when I choose. I've had my car for 28 yrs its time to make some changes. Good luck and ENJOY YOUR CAR as you see fit.

[taz]

The 455 isnt original so its not a # matching car so who cares . If modications are within reason the car can always be brought back to original at a latter date . I have seen cars restored that were just a body pulled from a field . No cutting is involved except the trans tunnel .

[PT Sportwagon]

I used to think in the purest sence. But After reading the Starting line column in the latest Hot Rod. I have changed my mind. Taz is right, the 67 GTO never came with a 455. so it isn't number matching.
My wagon is number matching( as far as I know, never checked) but I may do an LS swap or I may do a 455 Buick swap, or I may stay with the 350 that it came with. 1: it is my car 2: I may get more for an engine swap than without. 3: reliablity, and parts availablity are a key thing especialy on a road trip. I had to wait for 2days for just a starter. and that is because the Denver warehoue had one. What about Billy joes NAPA in BFE. they may take a week to get one for a Buick motor, probally have a LS part in stock.

Tim

[Wesley J]

I'm with you on the LS motor. Heck, I'm such a heretic that I'm considering an LS motor for my '67 Mustang. I have a fully aluminum 4.6 4V for the car but its so enormous and underpowered unless you pressurize it that I've been looking at building the 302. But, its steel and will require a good (expensive) heads and quite a bit of a cam to make 400 hp. I want a 400 hp daily driver/autocross car. Hence the LS motor. Am I a retard? Possibly.... no, probably, but I could care less what people think, it's my car.

At the end of the day there were eleventeen brazillion of my cars built and mine was a 6 cylinder bench seat coupe.

On a side note, I have a buddy thats putting a Dodge Nascar motor in a ~'76 Sport Fury. Cool motor and they're quite cheap.

Wes

[fbody_mike]

Here is my 2 cents......Go for it! :cheers: Nothing wrong with a little hot rodding, it is what the automotive enthusiast industry is built on.

You will get lots of nose up in the air snobbery from some people at cruise nights. I know I get it, but who cares, let the stomp their feet and whine.

[68Formula]

Enough talk already. Let's do this!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/08/imagesqtbnANd9GcRAKLlWaHlXg_xq_ZAe2Gyxf5-1.jpg

[Josh69]

I did the whole it's a Pontiac so keep it Pontiac routine, but anyone that is into Pontiac's seems to ignore my car anyway because of the g machine treatment. F those guys. If I had it to do over again, I'd do an LS.

I'm tired of the hassles that go along with an old motor. They leak, they smell, they are crude. But, they sound awesome and look awesome, and it's got all the torque my tires can handle.

I drive it almost daily and am tired of getting 10-12mpg with an OD. I would do EFI, spend another $3K with fuel system and tank, then get what, 14-16mpg? At that point I'm pissing in the wind.

I'd tear out my stroker and put an LS in it tomorrow. But I'm broke, tired, and just want to keep driving it. But that day will come.

[twosaturns]

I did the whole it's a Pontiac so keep it Pontiac routine, but anyone that is into Pontiac's seems to ignore my car anyway because of the g machine treatment. F those guys. If I had it to do over again, I'd do an LS.

I'm tired of the hassles that go along with an old motor. They leak, they smell, they are crude. But, they sound awesome and look awesome, and it's got all the torque my tires can handle.

I drive it almost daily and am tired of getting 10-12mpg with an OD. I would do EFI, spend another $3K with fuel system and tank, then get what, 14-16mpg? At that point I'm pissing in the wind.

I'd tear out my stroker and put an LS in it tomorrow. But I'm broke, tired, and just want to keep driving it. But that day will come.
well said.
what so many people don't care to admit is, all they really like from their old cars is the style; nobody enjoys stinky exhaust, bad brakes, leaky heavy engines, bad mpgs, etc. same reason why most all 'hot rods' got 350/350 drivetrains- who wants to mess w/ an old flathead?

[Roadrage David]

if money was no object I would get a Indian Adventures Pontiac aluminum block.

Right now im waighting on the new casting of the All pontiac/ budler aluminum II block, casted bij the people who cast the Donovan Aluminum blocks. this Injun mill wil have all the afthermarked goodies!!

It wil be a 4 inch stroke like the ls7 it wil have a bigger bore and ends up as a 475 ci engine.
It wil have 350 cfm pontiac edelbrock heads.
And on top of that THIS http://www.vari-lift.com/ it wil save 20% of fuel together with the a overdive transmission witch wil save a exstra 30% of fuel . thats saving a 50% fuel econey at 62 mph

It wil be capeble of haveing a 5000RPM TORQUE CURVE due to the 1,18 rokker ratio below 3500 rpm and 1.67 ratio above 3500 rpm.
It can be used as a high performance piece ore as a mid level performance piece, no matter witch way you choose
It wil beat up the LS7 performance whize econemy whize and durabilety whize witch is a exstra bonus due to the lesser internal fricktion below 3500 rpm. and gues what it wil still be a pontiac engine!!!!! stick that in your GTO and you feel iven beter!!. i know i will.. most of you guys forget one thing Pontiac still builds exitment being it aftermarked

Vari-Lift Rockers makes possible the use of large duration / high performance camshafts without to get the unwanted disadvantages in low rpm operation conditions and at idle.
The change from high lift mode ( 1.67 ) to low lift mode ( 1.18 ) causes approximate a 20 degrees duration shortening ( seat to seat ) and also approximate a 20° shortening of the valve overlap. Simultane the valve lift will reduced from 100% to 70%. This improves the combuistion process and give more low end torque.
Vari-Lift Rockers makes possible to enjoy the power of an 20+ degree larger camshaft without any loss in low rpm power, cruising quality, idle quality, brake function or emmision pollution.
A further benefit is, that at low lift mode the valve spring pressure and the valve acceleration forces acts with reduced ratio ( only multiplicated with factor 1.18 ) on the cam lobe.... this causes a save of approximate 3.5 HP of friction at 3000 engine rpm.... the result is a massive decrease in gasoline consumption of about 15 - 20% and a increase of lifetime of the valvetrain components.

[406 Q-ship]

I'm with you on the LS motor. Heck, I'm such a heretic that I'm considering an LS motor for my '67 Mustang. I have a fully aluminum 4.6 4V for the car but its so enormous and underpowered unless you pressurize it that I've been looking at building the 302. But, its steel and will require a good (expensive) heads and quite a bit of a cam to make 400 hp. I want a 400 hp daily driver/autocross car. Hence the LS motor. Am I a retard? Possibly.... no, probably, but I could care less what people think, it's my car.

At the end of the day there were eleventeen brazillion of my cars built and mine was a 6 cylinder bench seat coupe.

On a side note, I have a buddy thats putting a Dodge Nascar motor in a ~'76 Sport Fury. Cool motor and they're quite cheap.

Wes

I would look at Fords new 5.0 for your Mustang, but again I'm sure that it is probably huge like all the later Ford engines. Even a LS is a tight squeeze into an early Mustang engine compartment.

[4mul8ion]

if money was no object I would get a Indian Adventures Pontiac aluminum block.

Another vote for build your car the way you want and who cares what the Pontiac purist thinks.

I faced this same LS vs Pontiac power question for the 1970 Formula I’m building. The LS motor is sweet, gives great power, is amazingly fuel efficient and the aftermarket supports this engine well. It was a tough decision and it was close but I went with the Aluminum Pontiac block for the simple reason that I wanted to build an aluminum large displacement, relatively high compression Pontiac EFI engine with as much weight taken out as possible. My goal for my car is to build a “modern” 1970 Firebird Formula the way Pontiac might have if they had the parts then that I do now. Basically, a new formulation of parts to make the car drive, stop and turn better now than it could ever have then.

The way I see it, your car will make it back on the road under what ever power you choose. I’m always in favor of seeing another Pontiac on the road. And that helps all Pontiac owners with aftermarket support as the demand for new good fitting parts rise.

[DocJr]

well said.
what so many people don't care to admit is, all they really like from their old cars is the style; nobody enjoys stinky exhaust, bad brakes, leaky heavy engines, bad mpgs, etc. same reason why most all 'hot rods' got 350/350 drivetrains- who wants to mess w/ an old flathead?

Sorry, I thought I was done with this thread...

Have you ever been to a GoodGuys show? People want to mess with an old flathead, because they're "Hot Rodders" Not PT owners. I apologize if I'm sounding biased or in denial, but there's more to life than the 350/350 combo, or the LS craze. The LS isn't the "Dare to be Different" approach anymore, it's actually common practice, heck, it's gettin as bad as Torque Thrusts...:thankyou:

[SatisTraction]

. The LS isn't the "Dare to be Different" approach anymore, it's actually common practice, :thankyou:

thats because it makes 400+ RWHP and gets 25+ mpg on mostly stock parts and a cam. :thankyou:

[DocJr]

Ok, I get it.

I just quickly looked up an LS2..

http://www.jegs.com/i/GM%20Performance/809/19159564/10002/-1?CT=999

..I don't know where you guys are getting these engines, (Price factor) but with 9 grand, you could easily get well over 400 HP with a BBC

I hate to keep bringing this up, but there's an Olds 455 in my garage now that was built for 4 grand, and it has over 500hp. Runs on premium fuel, sure it get's less than 25mpgs, but it only costed 4 grand...

Another thing I'm not understanding is the mpg concern. I understand weight, it goes hand in hand with performance. But you guys are building top notch cars with thousands of dollars in suspension components, and wheels... a 9 thousand dollar LS2, CF body panels out the wazoo...why are you worried about mpgs?

I'm trying to hold on to my arguments but I'm afraid I'm failing haha I'll throw in the towel now, so I don't make any enemies. Moderators, can you ban me from this thread for my own safety? haha:getout:

[Blue67gto]

Sorry, I thought I was done with this thread...

Have you ever been to a GoodGuys show? People want to mess with an old flathead, because they're "Hot Rodders" Not PT owners. I apologize if I'm sounding biased or in denial, but there's more to life than the 350/350 combo, or the LS craze. The LS isn't the "Dare to be Different" approach anymore, it's actually common practice, heck, it's gettin as bad as Torque Thrusts...:thankyou:
aren't we all hot rodders?

this is in my garage too

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/08/modela041-1.jpg

[Zanie]

I saw Schwartz latest completed project last night.
It had a Pontiac in a Pontiac. who'd a thunk it?

It's a 65 Lemans convert with a twin turbocharged 389. It made 895 HP on pumpgas!!!
http://www.schwartzperformance.com/projects.aspx?projectid=24

[claytonisbob]

Ok, I get it.

I just quickly looked up an LS2..

http://www.jegs.com/i/GM%20Performance/809/19159564/10002/-1?CT=999

..I don't know where you guys are getting these engines, (Price factor) but with 9 grand, you could easily get well over 400 HP with a BBC

I hate to keep bringing this up, but there's an Olds 455 in my garage now that was built for 4 grand, and it has over 500hp. Runs on premium fuel, sure it get's less than 25mpgs, but it only costed 4 grand...

Another thing I'm not understanding is the mpg concern. I understand weight, it goes hand in hand with performance. But you guys are building top notch cars with thousands of dollars in suspension components, and wheels... a 9 thousand dollar LS2, CF body panels out the wazoo...why are you worried about mpgs?

I'm trying to hold on to my arguments but I'm afraid I'm failing haha I'll throw in the towel now, so I don't make any enemies. Moderators, can you ban me from this thread for my own safety? haha:getout:

Well, there are some people that are swapping in new crate LS1/2/6/7 engines into a lot of higher end cars, but a lot of people swap in pull outs from Camaros, Vettes and trucks. LS' can be more expensive, but I think it can also be pretty affordable which I think is true about just about anything.

Crate LS2 ~ $9k
Crate LS7 ~ $17k
LQ4 (6.0L) pullout, milled heads, decent cam, tune, headers, ect < $2500 in many cases.

For a mild street engine it can be hard to build a sbc for as much as a mildly done over LS1 or LQ4 that makes more horse power. Getting a decent set of sbc heads alone (at a bare minimum 1k) can cost more than a complete 5.3L engine that with a cam can make a very serious amount of power. If you want to keep them simple and tunable for the everyman, throw on a single plane carb intake, carb, and get a MSD ignition box and you're good to go.

[Josh69]

I'm only worried about mpg because I drive mine 60 miles a day round trip to work. It's not fun kneeling in back of the car every other day to fill it up, trying to carefully listen to the full level rising without spraying myself with overflow. It's also not fun stinking like fuel when I get to work, and again when I get home. That's fun a few Saturday's a month normally, but when you're living it, not so much.

Everyone has their needs, and hot rodding enables all of us to choose what is important to us. In my case, it was having a real hot rod I could drive daily. I would take a different approach next go-round.

But the bottom line here, is that his car is not currently original, and he has no interest in it being restored to original. So as long as the integrity of the car remains intact for future restoration/resale/reinvention, the choice is yours my friend. Good luck!

[ho428]

I'm with you on the LS motor. Heck, I'm such a heretic that I'm considering an LS motor for my '67 Mustang. I have a fully aluminum 4.6 4V for the car but its so enormous and underpowered unless you pressurize it that I've been looking at building the 302. But, its steel and will require a good (expensive) heads and quite a bit of a cam to make 400 hp. I want a 400 hp daily driver/autocross car. Hence the LS motor. Am I a retard? Possibly.... no, probably, but I could care less what people think, it's my car.

At the end of the day there were eleventeen brazillion of my cars built and mine was a 6 cylinder bench seat coupe.



Wes

My Ford suggestion.
http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2010/08/19/ford-racing-unveils-new-aluminum-427-crate-engines/?refer=news

On the GTO note, it's your car so do whatever trips your fancy.
But with so much aftermarket available now we can all use a traditional based power plant without it being an old original design.
Plus you'd have something rather unique. The LS is over done in older cars IMO, but again, it's your car.

[Josh69]

It wil be a 4 inch stroke like the ls7 it wil have a bigger bore and ends up as a 475 ci engine.
It wil have 350 cfm pontiac edelbrock heads.
And on top of that THIS http://www.vari-lift.com/ it wil save 20% of fuel together with the a overdive transmission witch wil save a exstra 30% of fuel . thats saving a 50% fuel econey at 62 mph

It wil be capeble of haveing a 5000RPM TORQUE CURVE due to the 1,18 rokker ratio below 3500 rpm and 1.67 ratio above 3500 rpm.
It can be used as a high performance piece ore as a mid level performance piece, no matter witch way you choose
It wil beat up the LS7 performance whize econemy whize

50% of 6mpg is still only 9mpg my friend. :spank2:

J/K. I'm curious to see how your vari-lift system turns out for ya.

[67rstbkt]

Now you guys have me second-guessing my choice to stick with a Poncho mill in my firebird. :bicycle:

Nothing else is original (C5 brakes, Viper T56, Ford 9, late model GTO seats, etc...), but for some reason I wanted to build the 400. Oh well, too late now. The machinist already started working on the block........

[andrewb70]

This thread sucks.

Andrew

[Josh69]

My Ford suggestion.
http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2010/08/19/ford-racing-unveils-new-aluminum-427-crate-engines/?refer=news

On the GTO note, it's your car so do whatever trips your fancy.
But with so much aftermarket available now we can all use a traditional based power plant without it being an old original design.
Plus you'd have something rather unique. The LS is over done in older cars IMO, but again, it's your car.


Peronally, I have yet to see a SINGLE LS conversion anywhere but at a car show or on the forums. It's the same with Torque Thrusts. I'm lucky if I see a single LS conversion at a local car show. There were probably only a few dozen (if that) at CC Summer Nats out of 5-6000 cars, and fewer yet at Back to the 50's with 10K cars. Yeah, they're really taking the world by storm.:smoke:

[Josh69]

This thread sucks.

Andrew

The Indians probably felt the same way (irony is a funny thing).

The March of Time shows no mercy. :2nd:

With all my whining and complaining, I would like to point out that I love seeing Pontiacs in Pontiacs, and I love, absolutely LOVE driving my car with the motor I have. I don't know if I would completely loose the character of the car by swapping in an LS but that would be my biggest concern. Would that outweigh the negatives I've highlighted? I dunno, not sure I want to find out. But there may come a day where my need for better economy outweighs my desire to keep the motor I've got. I do get nervous about gas prices rising stratospherically again...and I can't bear the thought of parking my car because of it.

[MIGOAT]

My opinion is to build that 455. I too have a original PHS documented 69 GTO. I did what I wanted shaved door handles, antenna, shaved drip rail. painted it satin blk. air ride etc. but I'm building a 468 stroker out of the 400. The only way I would put a ls engine is if it was a ls7 but thats not ever going to happen unless Obama sends me some Obama monnies.

It's been expensive so far as E heads are pricey out of the box plus getting them worked.

We just finished our 389 with mild cam E heads, tri power and a few other goodies 5.5K. obtaining a ls engine and building big hp is going to cost a pretty penny.

And I have to say Swartz Performance ar my Hero's thats a sweet 65. I would love to convert my 65 tri power into a turbo set up

[ho428]

LS swaps are like seeing a SBC in a 32 Ford. Yawn... I walk right by them.
Plenty of both in this area though.

I will say seeing an LS in a First Gen Camaro is better than seeing a SBC in it though, but not better than a big block.

Ford and Pontiac have to much to cool stuff to offer now to use an LS in one.
IMO Pontiac never was a "corporate" GM brand and always strived not to be. Most everything they did they did without approval, like the first GTO.
Once GM dropped the Pontiac, Olds and Buick engines things got vanilla'd down across the board. They all lost their individuality.
Putting an LS in an old GTO does the same thing.

[ace_xp2]

I'm with you on the LS motor. Heck, I'm such a heretic that I'm considering an LS motor for my '67 Mustang.

You might want to see this:
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids/1130160-67-mustang-hybrid-starts.html

He did no cutting, just a specific set of engine mounts and it bolted right in.

[Josh69]

LS swaps are like seeing a SBC in a 32 Ford. Yawn... I walk right by them.
Plenty of both in this area though.

I will say seeing an LS in a First Gen Camaro is better than seeing a SBC in it though, but not better than a big block.

Ford and Pontiac have to much to cool stuff to offer now to use an LS in one.
IMO Pontiac never was a "corporate" GM brand and always strived not to be. Most everything they did they did without approval, like the first GTO.
Once GM dropped the Pontiac, Olds and Buick engines things got vanilla'd down across the board. They all lost their individuality.
Putting an LS in an old GTO does the same thing.

So tell me, when does a Pontiac inherit it's individuality? The day GM decided to have Pontiac build one from a 'corporate' platform? Every post war Pontiac made has been created off a 'corporate' platform. I love my Pontiac as much as the next guy, and I have my reasons for owning it, but I try not to be ignorant to the fact that Pontiac has never been truly independent of Chevrolet. I don't understand why a 'Corporate' motor is a bad thing. GM put the LS series in both the Firebird and GTO/G8 recently. That's good enough for me. They've been putting Olds and Chevrolet motors in them for over 30 years from the factory.

By this logic, wouldn't a Chevelle owner be just as offended to install a 'corporate' motor in his Chevrolet? I mean heck, they haven't sold a V8 powered Chevelle in 35 years and never put an LS in one. GM put an LS in a GTO and a Firebird. So where does the line in the sand get drawn?

[ho428]

So tell me, when does a Pontiac inherit it's individuality?

I've lived, breathed and owned old Pontiacs since the mid 1970's so I'll bow out of this debate with this.

If you have to ask that about a Pontiac, you wouldn't understand.

[Josh69]

I've lived, breathed and owned old Pontiacs since the mid 1970's so I'll bow out of this debate with this.

If you have to ask that about a Pontiac, you wouldn't understand.


As have I. I'm asking simple questions, not spouting rhetoric. I've heard it all a hundred times and ask these questions precisely because I AM a Pontiac enthusiast.

If you can't answer them, so be it. I haven't heard a logical answer yet on this question since the whole LSx swap scene hit the streets. Granted, plenty of opinions and nostalgic passion, which I can appreciate as I'm very nostalgic and opinionated myself, but little logic.

[cmraman]

Say good bye to the 455, I've decided I'm going LS motor and 6 speed. Pontiac purist be damned. It is a real GTO and I'm going to ruin it. I just had to tell someone. That is all.

Go for it. I'd like to go with an LS eventually. It's your car, do what you want with it.

[Mr. Anderson]

If we built cars with nothing but logic, we'd all be driving late models.

[andrewb70]

This thread is starting to suck even more...

Andrew

[Blue67gto]

This thread is starting to suck even more...

Andrew

I see you are a mod....

Can you close it please?

[Zanie]

I see you are a mod....

Can you close it please?

Now, that there is funny!

[andrewb70]

Closed at the request of original poster.

Andrew