new laws with swapping LS engines into older vehicles

[f-body]

So earlier this year California drew a line in the sand with engine swaps. Now if you swap a 2010 LS engine into an older vehicle you must comply to the 2010 emissions standards or the standards of the engine year. GM also came out with the E-Rod (see link).
http://www.gmperformanceparts.com/erod/

The E-rod engine is an emissions legal crate engine you swap into older vehicles using stuff like factory exhaust manifolds, factory efi, catalytic converters and fuel system ect,ect.

Here is a link to the hot rod magazine article that shows all the stuff it comes with.
http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/hrdp_0911_1955_chevy_erod/index.html

So all that being said. What are those of you that have done or plan on doing LS swaps planning on doing to be compliant? Will you register as an antique? will you be grandfathered and wont have to worry about it? Will you add all the stuff the E-rod kit has a basically be a homeade e-rod kit? How will you keep your hot rod legal?
This is one time I am not trying to stir the stuff just wondering what some of you will do to keep enjoying your hot rod.

[69496]

As long as they don't make me do a smog check I am going to do whatever the hell I want. If they make me smog my car again I am going to be so pissed off with California I will seriously consider leaving (ok, maybe not but I would like to). Our cars are such a small drop in the bucket with the big scheme of things I just don't understand why they would even bother with us. There must be some money making involved for the state.

[ironworks]

As long as the car is smog exempt, 74 and older. It is not and issue. if the car is not smog exempt it has to have the equipment that was on the engine you swapped originally. So a 2005 engine needs 2005 stuff. If you do a 2010 it needs 2010 stuff which is an E-rod. Nothing has changed this year, the laws are still the same. Now if you build a brand new car with a brand new vin it either has to be one of the 1st 500 registered and look like something old and can be pre-emission, or it has to be 2010 compliant.

Nothing crazy....YET.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

man i feel bad for the Cali boys all the time... boy they punk you out there..

[DocJr]

man i feel bad for the Cali boys all the time... boy they punk you out there..


Agreed. Most of the parts in Dad's Mondello book reads: Not legal for street use in the state of California.

Which brings me to the question I always wondered. How do you guys get away with your "Show Cars" that's blown alki and such?

[f-body]

As long as the car is smog exempt, 74 and older. It is not and issue. if the car is not smog exempt it has to have the equipment that was on the engine you swapped originally. So a 2005 engine needs 2005 stuff. If you do a 2010 it needs 2010 stuff which is an E-rod. Nothing has changed this year, the laws are still the same. Now if you build a brand new car with a brand new vin it either has to be one of the 1st 500 registered and look like something old and can be pre-emission, or it has to be 2010 compliant.

Nothing crazy....YET.

I dont think you are understanding what I said. If you swap a 2010 LS3 into a 1967 Camaro you now have to smog your 1967 Camaro to 2010 emissions standards.
I thought the original idea of swaping an LS into older vehicles was to have driveability and so you did not have to deal with the smog testing like new cars have. Now if you swap that nice LS into a first gen, or second gen camaro you have it smogged to be legal in California anyway.

Smog exempt does not mean your not "suppost to" be compliant, no matter what car you drive its "suppost to be" legal as in all the smog stuff that it came with, its actually supost to have it.

Having a 74 or older does not mean you are exempt, if you swap an LS engine into a 67-74 vehicle you no longer will fall into the exempt catagory to be legal. Exempt means you dont have to have it inspected but does not mean you get to remove emissions equipment. And if you get stopped by the local police and they look under your hood and I hear they do in california you can get sent to have a visual inspection and get some nice tickets. A member on the second gen board got pulled over and they did just that, sent him for a chp inpsection.

So my understanding of the new law is the 74 and older is no longer exempt and those of you that have swapped and LS into your 67 or whatever dont just get a free pass. So the building an old vehicle to bypass emissions no longer works because of the new law whatever vehicle you swap a 2005 or 2010 engine into you now have to comply to the emissions of the year of the engine. Looks like exemption will be a thing of the past at least in California.

I was just wondering how those with LS swaps will deal with this if this is actually how the law is.

[Steve1968LS2]

As long as the car is smog exempt, 74 and older. It is not and issue. if the car is not smog exempt it has to have the equipment that was on the engine you swapped originally. So a 2005 engine needs 2005 stuff. If you do a 2010 it needs 2010 stuff which is an E-rod. Nothing has changed this year, the laws are still the same. Now if you build a brand new car with a brand new vin it either has to be one of the 1st 500 registered and look like something old and can be pre-emission, or it has to be 2010 compliant.

Nothing crazy....YET.


Yep, not a real issue for our cars.. yet..

But trust me that if many in Sacramento had thier way all of our cars would be crushed.. simple as that.

[zbugger]

I dont think you are understanding what I said. If you swap a 2010 LS3 into a 1967 Camaro you now have to smog your 1967 Camaro to 2010 emissions standards.
I thought the original idea of swaping an LS into older vehicles was to have driveability and so you did not have to deal with the smog testing like new cars have. Now if you swap that nice LS into a first gen, or second gen camaro you have it smogged to be legal in California anyway.

Smog exempt does not mean your not "suppost to" be compliant, no matter what car you drive its "suppost to be" legal as in all the smog stuff that it came with, its actually supost to have it.

Having a 74 or older does not mean you are exempt, if you swap an LS engine into a 67-74 vehicle you no longer will fall into the exempt catagory to be legal. Exempt means you dont have to have it inspected but does not mean you get to remove emissions equipment. And if you get stopped by the local police and they look under your hood and I hear they do in california you can get sent to have a visual inspection and get some nice tickets. A member on the second gen board got pulled over and they did just that, sent him for a chp inpsection.

So my understanding of the new law is the 74 and older is no longer exempt and those of you that have swapped and LS into your 67 or whatever dont just get a free pass. So the building an old vehicle to bypass emissions no longer works because of the new law whatever vehicle you swap a 2005 or 2010 engine into you now have to comply to the emissions of the year of the engine. Looks like exemption will be a thing of the past at least in California.

I was just wondering how those with LS swaps will deal with this if this is actually how the law is.
Seeing as you're from Texas, and we're from California, we kinda know what we're dealing with. Here's how it goes. The cars that USED TO BE SMOGGED, i.e. 67 to 74 vehicles, are still supposed to retain whatever emissions equipment they came with originally. They don't get a smog inspection every couple years, but they are still supposed to comply with the laws. Most of the time the only time they get checked is when they get pulled over and an officer chooses to send them to the referee. Then they're caught and have to comply with the standards for the year vehicle the motor came out of.

Now, it has ALWAYS been that if you put a later model motor in a older vehicle that the emissions has now changed to the year of the motor. Nothing has changed so far. The exemption has allowed people to put the newer motors in older cars without having to get smogged. That is pretty much it. Any questions?

[MrQuick]

So earlier this year California drew a line in the sand with engine swaps. Now if you swap a 2010 LS engine into an older vehicle you must comply to the 2010 emissions standards or the standards of the engine year. GM also came out with the E-Rod (see link).
http://www.gmperformanceparts.com/erod/

The E-rod engine is an emissions legal crate engine you swap into older vehicles using stuff like factory exhaust manifolds, factory efi, catalytic converters and fuel system ect,ect.

Here is a link to the hot rod magazine article that shows all the stuff it comes with.
http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/hrdp_0911_1955_chevy_erod/index.html

So all that being said. What are those of you that have done or plan on doing LS swaps planning on doing to be compliant? Will you register as an antique? will you be grandfathered and wont have to worry about it? Will you add all the stuff the E-rod kit has a basically be a homeade e-rod kit? How will you keep your hot rod legal?
This is one time I am not trying to stir the stuff just wondering what some of you will do to keep enjoying your hot rod.
not entirely accurate.....but close. Right now, 74 under are exempt however you are not allowed to remove or disable required smog equipment for that year.
You can perform an engine swap, but it must have the smog equipment for the year of the vehicle...this is where it gets sticky.
If the engine is newer, it must have the smog equipment for the year of the engine, but since we are exempt from yearly testing there is no way to verify this. Even with road side sensor violation, they would need a warrent to inspect an exempt vehicle. So in a way its not entirely legal but no legal means to inspect.

If they do bump the year back I believe tail pipe testing is going to be the main requirement, then fuel vapor testing. It is in the talks.

Vince

[ArtosDracon]

Same here in AZ if in, or comuting into Maricopa County. That's one of the reasons I just moved to Pinal County. :D

[MrQuick]

haaa haaa you said Pinal.....sorry

[zbugger]

haaa haaa you said Pinal.....sorry
Ummm.... He said Pinal. Not Penal.... Although they are pronounced the same.... Hell. Now I'm laughing anyway!! LOL!!!! Pinal....

[f-body]

Seeing as you're from Texas, and we're from California, we kinda know what we're dealing with. Here's how it goes. The cars that USED TO BE SMOGGED, i.e. 67 to 74 vehicles, are still supposed to retain whatever emissions equipment they came with originally. They don't get a smog inspection every couple years, but they are still supposed to comply with the laws. Most of the time the only time they get checked is when they get pulled over and an officer chooses to send them to the referee. Then they're caught and have to comply with the standards for the year vehicle the motor came out of.

Now, it has ALWAYS been that if you put a later model motor in a older vehicle that the emissions has now changed to the year of the motor. Nothing has changed so far. The exemption has allowed people to put the newer motors in older cars without having to get smogged. That is pretty much it. Any questions?

So did California not change the law yet or has it not taken effect or did they not actually change the law?

I actually read about it this year in some truck magazine like Street trucks and they were introducing the new E-rod 50 state legal crate engine setup. I know dont believe everything you read LOL. But it was the article that stated California was putting their foot down on the late model engine swaps into older vehicles. I mean really, really. Any LS engine would smog for a 67 car standards or totally cleaner than it was from the factory. I thought that was the point was to keep the air clean. Oops there I go thinking again. The entire EPA needs a new comon sense perspective on this. To bad they can't or won't realize that.

I was just curious as to what some would do to be compliant if they had all ready done LS swaps.

[zbugger]

They did not actually change the law. What happened was GM released a LS crate motor to comply with it.

[MrQuick]

some states still test older cars. you can still have an EPA referee to test and apply a lable for the E-rod. some of us still try to ease the emissions coming out....mostly for the gas milage savings increase.

[ArtosDracon]

Ummm.... He said Pinal. Not Penal.... Although they are pronounced the same.... Hell. Now I'm laughing anyway!! LOL!!!! Pinal....

Made me laugh too. But the emphasis goes on the A in Pinal, not the i.

[DartorDemon]

man i feel bad for the Cali boys all the time... boy they punk you out there..

what can we do, morons run the CARB and make it a joke. We almost had hope when the EPA wanted to shut down CARB several years ago, but it never went through. :nopity:

Its gonna be hard to convince anyone that the CARB doesnt have emissions in mind and that they need to hit the bricks.

I found out awhile ago that the carb sticker is more important then emissions. I sent an email to some douche that was listed under the aftermarket/retrofit section asking about a setup that people had figured out for jeeps. They took all the efi parts from the 4.0's and put it on the 4.2s.(this is the exact same thing that mopar sells)

Can you guess what i got for a reply? Basically it was "no, because it needs a carb compliance sticker"

So i sent a reply asking if that meant that it was more legal to have a highly polluting 10mpg jeep on the road, then to build a known efi setup and get 15mpg w/ better emissions output....he never responded.

[ArtosDracon]

what can we do, morons run the CARB and make it a joke. We almost had hope when the EPA wanted to shut down CARB several years ago, but it never went through. :nopity:

Its gonna be hard to convince anyone that the CARB doesnt have emissions in mind and that they need to hit the bricks.

I found out awhile ago that the carb sticker is more important then emissions. I sent an email to some douche that was listed under the aftermarket/retrofit section asking about a setup that people had figured out for jeeps. They took all the efi parts from the 4.0's and put it on the 4.2s.(this is the exact same thing that mopar sells)

Can you guess what i got for a reply? Basically it was "no, because it needs a carb compliance sticker"

So i sent a reply asking if that meant that it was more legal to have a highly polluting 10mpg jeep on the road, then to build a known efi setup and get 15mpg w/ better emissions output....he never responded.

Unfortunately, in order to get that CARB sticker, it can cost thousands of dollars for testing and certification, for a LOT of aftermarket, it's just not worth the cost.

[DocJr]

Ya know, this brings back memories from what Dad always told me...(Normally he brings this up in a rant of emissions BS).

The '83 Cadillac failed emissions off the showroom floor. If you own one, it's exempt. Good Job America.:firefire:

[YancyJohns]

With California Billions of dollars in debt, how do they enforce anything? or is it just a money revenue thing?

[wicked68]

With California Billions of dollars in debt, how do they enforce anything? or is it just a money revenue thing?

They get obama to take money from the respsonsible states and give it them. its in the grand communist scheme of things.

I am adding muscle car hating to my ever growing list of reasons I will never ever ever move back to california.

[Samckitt]

Right now Indiana doesn't have any kind of vehicle inspection, or smog checking. So for the time being I do what Mike A says "I'll do whatever the hell I want".

[camcojb]

as everyone above says the law didn't change. It's always been illegal to remove or alter the smog equipment on these cars, even the pre-74 ones. It's just that they do not put them in the biannual smog inspections so many do whatever they please. However, it is still illegal.

On the later engines it's always been that an LS swap for example, to be legal it must retain all the original LS smog equipment; cats (in the factory location), evap system, etc. Don't try to confuse the idiots that write the laws with the FACT that the later engines with efi are much cleaner than the original engines even without the smog equipment, they don't care. So, in our state, it's legal to keep your stock 350 4 barrel in your 69 Camaro, but illegal to install a stock LS2 without all the smog and exhaust equipment it came with............... even though the LS2 without smog would be MUCH cleaner and use a lot less fuel.

I've never had an issue with emission requirements. Just give me the levels the car must meet and I'll pass. No visual inspection, no need to open the hood, if it passes isn't that the priority? Shouldn't matter how I get there. It helped me once I realized that these rules for the older cars aren't about air quality; they're about money, control, and justifying some pencil pushers job by writing new laws and restrictions. Makes no sense, they ought to be giving incentives for swapping later model more efficient engines into the older cars, but they do the opposite, make it harder and harder to comply with their restrictions and laws.

Jody

[Mike Holleman]

In North Carolina you can do what you want pretty much as far as engine swaps as long as the Title does not have to change. So if you plan to do a swap have the title work done first. When I built the Elky I was doing a 66 Chevelle for a customer and he bought from out of state. He did not get the title sorted out until well into the project. Big mistake. This meant that the DMV enforcement guy had to come by my shop to verify the VIN number. He wanted to retitle the Chevelle as a 2007 custom. This would have made it have to meet all NC inspection standards for a 2007 vehicle. I successfully argued on behalf of the customer to keep it as a 66 Chevelle. He eyeballed my Elky and says that is definately not a 65 El Camino, but because my title was in place he had to leave it alone. We have no safety inspection for any vehicle more than 35 years old.
Mike

[Chevy Kid]

For all of those that are concerned about this in California (or any other state, for that matter), I can only urge you to join the SAN, SEMA Action Network. It is free to join, with no obligation. You will get updates based on your location on bills that can affect our hobby. Then, you can write the respective legislators and voice your opinion and stance.

It will up to us to proctect what we have and what we want. Like anything else, we have to be involved, and not sit on the sidelines.

SEMA has lobbyists in Washington and Sacramento that fight for us behind the scenes. You may not like the game, but we have to play it, or like Rupp says, they will just try and take our cars.

[MrQuick]

With California Billions of dollars in debt, how do they enforce anything? or is it just a money revenue thing?
you know Yance, with all the corruption going on in this state its a big cluster fork. This place needs a good house cleaning.


My local EPA guy is super cool, he came by to do his shop insection and loves the Pro-Touring Concept. Its almost like he had a V8 moment.... He loves older cars and any way to make the perform better/efficient is a huge plus in his eyes.

i second the SEMA suport. They are slowly getting the idea through to Sac. However when a new term comes around its back to square one.
Vince

[CarlC]

The car is exempt from annual emmisions testing. The car is NOT EXEMPT from emmisions compliance. It's an honor rule that the state can enforce at the whim of law enforcement.

Get ready USA. Whatever happens in Cali is coming your way someday.

[novaderrik]

MN tried doing emissions testing about a decade ago- but only in the twin cities metro area. and i think it only lasted about a year before they ditched it and went back to having common sense.
our lawmakers were smart enough to realize that it was a big scam- luckily, our state was running a budget surplus at the time and they didn't need the revenue.
i also remember something about brand new cars not passing the tests in the winter months or something silly like that- and you can't have brand new cars not pass emissions tests, that's just bad publicity.
are there any cold weather states like MN that do annual emissions tests?
i also remember something about how they wouldn't even pop the hood to do a visual inspection- as long as it was clean at the tailpipe, you were golden.
now, we are back to being one of those "i'll do whatever i want" states.

[Jasons72]

How are they even going to know if you swapped your motor? Plus shouldn't a newer ls motor run cleaner without the emissions than an old smallblock?

[Chad-1stGen]

They get obama to take money from the respsonsible states and give it them. its in the grand communist scheme of things.

I am adding muscle car hating to my ever growing list of reasons I will never ever ever move back to california.

Nice try. As a California resident I have to point out that you are wrong. Since 1986 California has consistently received less in federal funding than the state pays in federal taxes. In 1986 California received $0.99 for every $1 collected in federal taxes. In 2005 (most recent data I found) it was down to $0.78 for ever $1 collected. We don't suffer from the biggest disparity, there were 6 other states who receive even less.

[YancyJohns]

Get ready USA. Whatever happens in Cali is coming your way someday.
I've heard this quote by many in the past but none of it seams to happen here in Tennessee. :fingersx: I hope not anyways.

[ProjectSideOiler]

I just spent the last week in Monterey at the auctions trying to sell a '32 Ford Coupe. Turns out because it has a late model engine it could not be sold to anyone in California. Nice to know after the fact! Another interesting point is in California the buyer has a right to return the car for any reason! But then again its ok for the Motel to gouge 599.00 per night for a basic room....

Each and every car there had to have a sticker put on windshield saying its known in the State of California that the car could cause cancer!
I think the cancer is in the crooks making the laws!

In Arizona it did not matter what engine you had if it was '66 or older.
Now in California they go after you with a 1932 Ford.

[camcojb]

I just spent the last week in Monterey at the auctions trying to sell a '32 Ford Coupe. Turns out because it has a late model engine it could not be sold to anyone in California. Nice to know after the fact! Another interesting point is in California the buyer has a right to return the car for any reason! But then again its ok for the Motel to gouge 599.00 per night for a basic room....

Each and every car there had to have a sticker put on windshield saying its known in the State of California that the car could cause cancer!
I think the cancer is in the crooks making the laws!

In Arizona it did not matter what engine you had if it was '66 or older.
Now in California they go after you with a 1932 Ford.sounds like an auction thing more than a California thing. To my knowledge there are no restrictions to a 32 Ford if titled as a 32 Ford. Barrett-Jackson does the same in Arizona as far as smog legality to protect themselves from someone coming back on them; if you live in AZ and the car isn't smog legal they won't let you buy it at the Glendale auction.

As far as returning a used car in California, in a normal purchase unless you have a written contract that states otherwise, it's buyer beware, as-is, and pretty much no recourse on a used car sale.

[DynoDon]

I just spent the last week in Monterey at the auctions trying to sell a '32 Ford Coupe. Turns out because it has a late model engine it could not be sold to anyone in California. Nice to know after the fact! Another interesting point is in California the buyer has a right to return the car for any reason! But then again its ok for the Motel to gouge 599.00 per night for a basic room....

Each and every car there had to have a sticker put on windshield saying its known in the State of California that the car could cause cancer!
I think the cancer is in the crooks making the laws!

Now in California they go after you with a 1932 Ford.

If it were a real 32 Ford, registered as a 32 Ford this is absolutely incorrect. If it is a glass car or other non Henry Ford built car that was recently built, then that could be true - it's NOT a 32 Ford at that point, it's a kit car or replica.
There is no buyers remorse in California or what they used to call "Cooling Off" period, that was repealed a number of years ago. It is now buyer beware and there is no backing out of the deal per California Law. maybe the auction house had a different policy.
As for Motel room rates, yes, California believes in free trade and lets the market dictate price, no government intervention necessary.
I get so tired of people bagging on California, I don't make fun of where you live and in fact think that is one of the rudest things you can possibly do.

[Dayton]

It's always been illegal to remove or alter the smog equipment on these cars, even the pre-74 ones.


Same with exhaust

[DynoDon]

Same with exhaust


??? what do you mean by this??

[gEtyOpAPiOn]

......and thats when you move to oakland ca where smog exempt means gettin in a high speed :drive:

[cobragt]

I'm wondering what Arizona will say about my 78 Cobra with an 85 302 with just high flow cats on it. When I had to have it inspected here in Georgia ( before they decided it was exempt) it blew through cleaner than most new cars.

[MrQuick]

Same with exhaust
depends....if it was an option then it could be available. depending on county its gotta be under a certain db and tail pipes over axles.


vince

[Dayton]

??? what do you mean by this??
Illegal to modify a cars exhaust from stock

[wicked68]

Nice try. As a California resident I have to point out that you are wrong. Since 1986 California has consistently received less in federal funding than the state pays in federal taxes. In 1986 California received $0.99 for every $1 collected in federal taxes. In 2005 (most recent data I found) it was down to $0.78 for ever $1 collected. We don't suffer from the biggest disparity, there were 6 other states who receive even less.

and that is a good illustration of a broken system. I know this is getting off topic - but why should any state have to wait for money taken from them to be given back? This is a rather inefficient system.

Simply leave it alone and let each state deal with it - this would reduce the overhead associated with the management of the taking and handing out (kind of like a protection racket). why should we be grateful in the first place that the fed govt is going to give us something when they took it from us in the first place - as if federal funding is some mythical uncle somewhere giving you his money.

Lets just cut the middle man out. Plus if you do the numbers- you should not be able to get 1.00 back since you have to pay all the bureaucrats in dc to take it - count it - waste it and then give you some back. So - 78 cents on the dollar is probably pretty good (without accounting for the rediculous debt we are being run in the ground with).

Also - what is your source for that data - I would be interested in looking up some other states as well.

thanks!

[Blue67gto]

I get so tired of people bagging on California, I don't make fun of where you live and in fact think that is one of the rudest things you can possibly do.


I've noticed a lot of that too lately. Especially about California. It is really rude.....

If you don't like it, don't come.

.....there are probably things I could pick out that I dislike about every state....But what do I know. I live in Seattle.:hammer:

[85GPLEf41]

So what is the rest of the country going to do when California falls off into the ocean?? LOL JK what i am trying to say is why do we have to do what they do?? IMO my car which is a 85 Grand Prix, has really bad emssions. Why? Cuz GM was late in the EFI game. MY car failed the the smog Portion TWICE!! And that was with the stock emissions components in place! So when i decided to upgrade the pathetic 305 to a Targetmaster 350 it became even WORSE!. I haven't driven my car in the last 2yr's. I was thinking of doing a LS engine swap But $$ has become tight recently i've haven't been able to. IMO car's like ours represent a very small portion of the "overall" emissions output. BTW i would love to visit "Cali" one of these days but can't seem to understand why they "dictate" what the rest of the country does... I NEED to do a LS engine swap cuz it's cleaner and it offers more power. Just what everybody else want's!

[DartorDemon]

With California Billions of dollars in debt, how do they enforce anything? or is it just a money revenue thing?

Well, not very well. Mum's the word...my DD slipped through the cracks. Didnt do a single shady thing. :cheers:

[ArtosDracon]

I'm wondering what Arizona will say about my 78 Cobra with an 85 302 with just high flow cats on it. When I had to have it inspected here in Georgia ( before they decided it was exempt) it blew through cleaner than most new cars.

It's going to depend a lot on where you move to. If in the phoenix metro area, you might be SOL, it's going to partially depend on the inspector. IMHO, get it titled and get a 3 day pass, take in to emissions and they'll test the exhaust fumes, the gas tank for pressure, and "do a visual inspection" and you'll probably walk out without issue so long as it runs cleanly.

[Jim Nilsen]

I'm believing more in the buddy system like in Boy Scouts when you go swimming or hiking so that if something goes wrong you have a buddy to be there for you and help you get through it.

So if you know someone who is terminally ill and going to die you just have to have them buddy up with a politician so they can go down together !!!!! It's the friendliest way I can think of for everyone to show there need and love for them. Why let the politicians feel exempt when there is so much need for them to be in each and everyones lives? With so many more terminal people than politicians it would seem the problems would go away pretty quickly and the right to live and die the way we want would supercede any law or lawmaker!!!!

Just a little tidbit of how many cancer survivors view things these days. In Illinios and rust being a cancer for our cars it makes it a double edge sword on which cancer is killing the car hobby but there are many more cars than politicians,LOL.

:cheers:

[YancyJohns]

I've noticed a lot of that too lately. Especially about California. It is really rude.....
I don't think anyone is ditching on California itself, I love the state and the people in it. I think most comments are referring to the politicians/judges that are making decisions that micromanage our everyday way of life. We all them in every state where we live. We can either live with it or vote them out and change the law. :idea:

[rrunner68]

With California Billions of dollars in debt, how do they enforce anything? or is it just a money revenue thing?

Bingo. The only laws enforced in this state are the ones that generate revenue. Down here in San Diego, they have random SMOG roadside checkpoints.

[Chad-1stGen]

and that is a good illustration of a broken system. I know this is getting off topic - but why should any state have to wait for money taken from them to be given back? This is a rather inefficient system.

Simply leave it alone and let each state deal with it - this would reduce the overhead associated with the management of the taking and handing out (kind of like a protection racket). why should we be grateful in the first place that the fed govt is going to give us something when they took it from us in the first place - as if federal funding is some mythical uncle somewhere giving you his money.

Lets just cut the middle man out. Plus if you do the numbers- you should not be able to get 1.00 back since you have to pay all the bureaucrats in dc to take it - count it - waste it and then give you some back. So - 78 cents on the dollar is probably pretty good (without accounting for the rediculous debt we are being run in the ground with).

Also - what is your source for that data - I would be interested in looking up some other states as well.

thanks!

Here is one source: http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/22685.html

[CRCRFT78]

With all this talk of emissions, why not just buy an Erod motor and be legal? Is it really that simple or are we pi$$ing in the wind? What if you already have an LSx motor, can you just buy the Erod emissions equipment and be legal then? At $8000+ for an Erod emissions legal motor not too many people I know can afford to even deal with swapping an engine into a vehicle requiring emissions testing.

I believe politicians are all about the rich getting richer and keeping the poor right where they are. I work for the state and its rediculous how they throw money away. Everything is all about the MONEY. Politicians don't give a rats arse about anything else. Unfortunately alot of people complain but don't have the marbles to go and vote for change. Sorry for the rant.

[rrunner68]

With all this talk of emissions, why not just buy an Erod motor and be legal? Is it really that simple or are we pi$$ing in the wind? What if you already have an LSx motor, can you just buy the Erod emissions equipment and be legal then? At $8000+ for an Erod emissions legal motor not too many people I know can afford to even deal with swapping an engine into a vehicle requiring emissions testing.

I believe politicians are all about the rich getting richer and keeping the poor right where they are. I work for the state and its rediculous how they throw money away. Everything is all about the MONEY. Politicians don't give a rats arse about anything else. Unfortunately alot of people complain but don't have the marbles to go and vote for change. Sorry for the rant.

Because some of us don't want some piece of crap, cookie cutter chevy motor in between our Ford, Mopar, Etc fenders.....

[DynoDon]

With all this talk of emissions, why not just buy an Erod motor and be legal? Is it really that simple or are we pi$$ing in the wind? What if you already have an LSx motor, can you just buy the Erod emissions equipment and be legal then? .

Yes you can buy the emissions package for the LS motors. Allegedly Ford is working on a similar package for the Mod motor

[paul67]

Just watched a program about how pot is legal to smoke medically in CA some of the people it showed yea right,seems the law maker are smoking it as well. And they keep asking us in the UK to come and live there.

[DartorDemon]

With all this talk of emissions, why not just buy an Erod motor and be legal? Is it really that simple or are we pi$$ing in the wind? What if you already have an LSx motor, can you just buy the Erod emissions equipment and be legal then? At $8000+ for an Erod emissions legal motor not too many people I know can afford to even deal with swapping an engine into a vehicle requiring emissions testing.

I believe politicians are all about the rich getting richer and keeping the poor right where they are. I work for the state and its rediculous how they throw money away. Everything is all about the MONEY. Politicians don't give a rats arse about anything else. Unfortunately alot of people complain but don't have the marbles to go and vote for change. Sorry for the rant.

The funny thing is that you probably can't buy erod emissions equpment. Afterall, that would just make too much sense.

[DartorDemon]

Just watched a program about how pot is legal to smoke medically in CA some of the people it showed yea right,seems the law maker are smoking it as well. And they keep asking us in the UK to come and live there.

The medicinal MJ laws here are a little screwey. I dont doubt that it helps a lot of people. But it has also opened the door for a lot of recreational smokers.

I worked with a guy that got jumped at a party and lost his sight in one eye. He had no pain, until someone suggested that he could say it was bothering him and get a medicinal MJ card.

[Dukes69]

Thankfully, as the thread title implies, this wont apply to me as I am swapping a late model hemi into my Charger. Sucks for the Chevy folks.

[camcojb]

Thankfully, as the thread title implies, this wont apply to me as I am swapping a late model hemi into my Charger. Sucks for the Chevy folks.
huh?????? This isn't a Chevy only thing.........

Jody

[CRCRFT78]

rrunner68, well I guess your SOL until the Ford & Mopar goons decide to pull their heads out of their arse and catch up.

[twosaturns]

never been to CA, but reading the car mages since the late '70s I see the song remains the same. hot rodders have been fighting/complaining CA for decades; but somehow alot of people have managed to build some pretty hot cars.
FWIW, PA emissions only tests '95up (OBD-II) cars. IIRC, they just plug the computer into the diagnostic port and the computer tells them if it passes or not. they don't have a tailpipe sniffer anymore.
but I could be wrong. last car I built was a '93 w/ a '94 engine and a '92 exhaust.

[b-man]

I've lived in So Cal my entire life.

Not even once has any officer of the law asked to look under the hood of my car when I was pulled over for a traffic violation, when I was younger I had more than my share of getting pulled over. I have owned a number of modified cars, starting with air-cooled VWs and as of late V8 Pontiacs from the '60s.

I started buying '65 and earlier cars to work on because at that time those years were exempt from smog checks.

I think the guys who will get their hoods lifted will be the ones driving imports, the police will be lifting their hoods looking for stolen engines in these cars which is unfortunately pretty common.

I seriously doubt the 'emissions police' will be hassling too many of the Pro-Touring crowd.

[rrunner68]

rrunner68, well I guess your SOL until the Ford & Mopar goons decide to pull their heads out of their arse and catch up.

Nope, both of my vehicles have their original motors, and were equipped with no equipment. So I'm in good shape. :twothumbs

[Randy67]

Agreed. Most of the parts in Dad's Mondello book reads: Not legal for street use in the state of California.

Which brings me to the question I always wondered. How do you guys get away with your "Show Cars" that's blown alki and such?

If you run on alcohol, it is considered an alternative fuel (aka clean fuel to the greenies) and may get an exemption for that. But it does have to run alcohol only, no gasoline. Unless that has changed as well, I'm not sure since I'm on the other side of the country from Cali.

[FoxGranadaChuck]

In North Carolina you can do what you want pretty much as far as engine swaps as long as the Title does not have to change. So if you plan to do a swap have the title work done first. When I built the Elky I was doing a 66 Chevelle for a customer and he bought from out of state. He did not get the title sorted out until well into the project. Big mistake. This meant that the DMV enforcement guy had to come by my shop to verify the VIN number. He wanted to retitle the Chevelle as a 2007 custom. This would have made it have to meet all NC inspection standards for a 2007 vehicle. I successfully argued on behalf of the customer to keep it as a 66 Chevelle. He eyeballed my Elky and says that is definately not a 65 El Camino, but because my title was in place he had to leave it alone. We have no safety inspection for any vehicle more than 35 years old.
Mike


This is true in MOST of North Carolina. There are areas that do perform smog checks. How do I know this? Because I have a nephew who lives in Gastonia who had an '80 Ford LTD that failed their smog inspection. And why did it fail smog inspection? Because the tube that goes from the air cleaner snorkel to the RH exhaust manifold was very badly deteriorated!

[FoxGranadaChuck]

i've heard this quote by many in the past but none of it seams to happen here in tennessee. :fingersx: I hope not anyways.


+1!!

[jeff s]

Our 730 hp and 675 hp LS7's have passed emissions in the UK. However they only checked with a sniffer and obd for codes. Which is how it should be. If it's clean it should be legal.

[FoxGranadaChuck]

Our 730 hp and 675 hp LS7's have passed emissions in the UK. However they only checked with a sniffer and obd for codes. Which is how it should be. If it's clean it should be legal.


Right on Jeff!!

[wicked68]

Here is one source: http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/22685.html


Thanks for the link. you know what is really diabolical?

the states that get the most out of it in general are the states with the highest populations that dont want to be part of the union anymore and feel they will be happier on their own and the states that want more taxes and are getting ripped off the worse are the ones that are the most liberal and want to stick with what we have.

That is some funny stuff! you would think it would be the other way around with the states getting the short end of the stick crying to boot the ones sucking the teet dry. Its also funny that it is a pretty close blue / red state mapping with the red states getting the best deal out of it.

Pretty wild.

[Mike Holleman]

This is true in MOST of North Carolina. There are areas that do perform smog checks. How do I know this? Because I have a nephew who lives in Gastonia who had an '80 Ford LTD that failed their smog inspection. And why did it fail smog inspection? Because the tube that goes from the air cleaner snorkel to the RH exhaust manifold was very badly deteriorated!
There is no safety inspection in NC for a vehicle more than 35 years old. A 1980 LTD is subject to safety inspection but emissions are only checked on vehicles 96 and newer. Our safety inspection laws are the same statewide but only a few years back emissions were only part of the inspection process in the larger population areas. That has changed but currently his 80 model car is not emissions tested. They may have deemed that bad tube a safety hazard. You cannot have exhaust leaks and pass. We were all surprized by the move to not inspect the older vehicles and I have yet to find anyone that knows why this was done. A highway patrolman buddy said he knows the older classic cars are much better maintained than most everything else on the road, but he too didn't know where the change in law came from.

[Rhino]

Nope, both of my vehicles have their original motors, and were equipped with no equipment. So I'm in good shape. :twothumbs

I have to disagree. If you want to keep all the smog equipment on the newer motor you will be fine. It's not only the removal of original smog equipment that's illegal. You're still mandated to comply with smog laws for the year your new engine originally hit the road. AIR, EGR, Cats, etc from the engine donor all need to be in place.

[71RS/SS396]

There is no safety inspection in NC for a vehicle more than 35 years old. A 1980 LTD is subject to safety inspection but emissions are only checked on vehicles 96 and newer. Our safety inspection laws are the same statewide but only a few years back emissions were only part of the inspection process in the larger population areas. That has changed but currently his 80 model car is not emissions tested. They may have deemed that bad tube a safety hazard. You cannot have exhaust leaks and pass. We were all surprized by the move to not inspect the older vehicles and I have yet to find anyone that knows why this was done. A highway patrolman buddy said he knows the older classic cars are much better maintained than most everything else on the road, but he too didn't know where the change in law came from.

Mike, the law reguarding smog for pre 96 and newer than 35 year old vehicles, is all original smog equip has to be present, it doesn't have to necessarily work, they do a visual inspection, no sniff test. If you transplant a newer engine, the smog equip. from the donor has to be present visually. I just went through this with an 86 pick-up that I installed a 5.3 in.

The law for titling foreign ( out of state ) 35 year old and older cars has changed. I got caught up in this and got pissed and hired an attorney. Myself,father,local car clubs, and the attorney fought the DMV for 18 months and got the law changed. They are only allowed to verify the vin tag to the title upon inspection unless they find some reason to believe the tag has been changed or altered ( they had better believe they can charge you with a crime ). You can get the car registered immediately but you have to have the vin verified to get a title, which they allow you 1 year to get the vin tag inspected. There are also provisions to receive a non-op title now so you can title a project before you invest your money into it. This was a long hard fight that ultimately resulted in the DMV commisioner being forced to resign and the current one being on the hot seat. If you ever have a titling problem with a classic car contact me, my attorney loves taking the DMV to the mat and he does it pro bono now. I think he just loves the fight.

[406 Q-ship]

.....On the later engines it's always been that an LS swap for example, to be legal it must retain all the original LS smog equipment; cats (in the factory location), evap system, etc. .....


Actually under the Calif Code both Cats and Evap are considered chassis emission equipment and are only required for the vehicle and not to the engine. So you can put a late model engine in a pre-cat vehicle without the cats, but it must be clean or cleaner that the standards of the year of the vehicle. I spent alot of time investigating this when I was considering a LT1 in my 74 C10 when it still was under inspections.

[camcojb]

Actually under the Calif Code both Cats and Evap are considered chassis emission equipment and are only required for the vehicle and not to the engine. So you can put a late model engine in a pre-cat vehicle without the cats, but it must be clean or cleaner that the standards of the year of the vehicle. I spent alot of time investigating this when I was considering a LT1 in my 74 C10 when it still was under inspections.
I've spoken with several smog guys, just asked again when I smogged my wifes Trans Am. They all say an LS swap would need cats and all evap and smog equipment in an older muscle car. If what you say was true (and I wish it was) these swaps couldn't be easier, they'll always be cleaner unless there's something wrong with the engine or it has been heavily modded.


A quick search found this:


I have done some very significant research into this and have spoken directly to a Referee at BAR. Here is the lowdown:

Any engine swap (unless it is the identical engine as was supplied by the factory) will require a referee visit. So, putting a 5.0L ford V8 from another Mustang into a V6 Mustang will still require a visit to the BAR referee.

The engine must be from the same year or newer and have ALL the emissions equipment which was originally supplied with the donor engine from the factory.
If the donor engine is computer controlled (OBDI or OBDII), the diagnostic port and SES light must be installed and operate properly. This means that if the donor vehicle had fuel tank with pressure sensor and vapor solenoid etc, etc, then the fuel tank from the donor needs to be installed also. The PCM cannot be reprogrammed to delete DTC, and the PCM cannot be throwing DTC (SES light illuminated).
The engine must be from the same family of vehicles, ie cars to cars, trucks to trucks etc. The family cut off for car's family is 1 ton trucks. Thus, a 3/4 ton truck engine can be installed into a yugo etc. You cannot install a Yugo engine into a Ford F350 truck.....
hope that helps....CA smog testing requirements end at 1974 and older, so if you have a 1975 car, you need to smog test it. There is no longer a rolling 30 year exemption....it is frozen at 1974. All the above engine change information technically applies to vehicles from 1900 to 1974 also.......however....not having to smog test them biennially, well......

Tim
Jody

[406 Q-ship]

I've spoken with several smog guys, just asked again when I smogged my wifes Trans Am. They all say an LS swap would need cats and all evap and smog equipment in an older muscle car. If what you say was true (and I wish it was) these swaps couldn't be easier, they'll always be cleaner unless there's something wrong with the engine or it has been heavily modded.

Jody

Don't talk to the smog check guys they don't have a clue for the most part. Read the regs yourself and then contact a referree. The referree will affix a tag to the door jam giving all the equipment that vehicle needs to pass the visual inspection for the person at the smog check station.

[John Wright]

^^ true...I tried(in vain) to get info out of these inspection guys before, even talked with several State Troopers and nobody had a clue about what was really required.

[camcojb]

Don't talk to the smog check guys they don't have a clue for the most part. Read the regs yourself and then contact a referree. The referree will affix a tag to the door jam giving all the equipment that vehicle needs to pass the visual inspection for the person at the smog check station.
in the quote below the guy spoke directly with a ref from BAR......... still said you need cats, evap, etc.



I have done some very significant research into this and have spoken directly to a Referee at BAR. Here is the lowdown:

Any engine swap (unless it is the identical engine as was supplied by the factory) will require a referee visit. So, putting a 5.0L ford V8 from another Mustang into a V6 Mustang will still require a visit to the BAR referee.

The engine must be from the same year or newer and have ALL the emissions equipment which was originally supplied with the donor engine from the factory.
If the donor engine is computer controlled (OBDI or OBDII), the diagnostic port and SES light must be installed and operate properly. This means that if the donor vehicle had fuel tank with pressure sensor and vapor solenoid etc, etc, then the fuel tank from the donor needs to be installed also. The PCM cannot be reprogrammed to delete DTC, and the PCM cannot be throwing DTC (SES light illuminated).
The engine must be from the same family of vehicles, ie cars to cars, trucks to trucks etc. The family cut off for car's family is 1 ton trucks. Thus, a 3/4 ton truck engine can be installed into a yugo etc. You cannot install a Yugo engine into a Ford F350 truck.....
hope that helps....CA smog testing requirements end at 1974 and older, so if you have a 1975 car, you need to smog test it. There is no longer a rolling 30 year exemption....it is frozen at 1974. All the above engine change information technically applies to vehicles from 1900 to 1974 also.......however....not having to smog test them biennially, well......

Tim

I guess what we need is someone who's done this exact swap and been through the ref process. Thing is most of these swaps are done in pre-smog testing cars, muscle cars for example. Doesn't make them legal, just means they haven't had to test them. Has anyone out there in California done a later LS swap into an older car and had to go to the referee?


Jody

[camcojb]

by the way, I did have to do the referee thing years ago with a Cobra replica. Had a big block going into it, and he required all smog equipment from the engine to be on the car to pass. It was a 76 block so he wanted to see egr, closed air cleaner, pcv, cat, etc. I ended up going a different direction after he told me that.

Jody

[EBMC]

IMO, I believe there WILL be regular smog checks on older cars in the future and alot of us are going to be really pissed off with no way of renewing our registration until extensive retrofitting is done. As has been said many times, the best way (most logical)to probably do it is to put the sniffer on it to meet a minimum standard, but since we arent making the rules, our only hope is to consolidate and support SEMA and hope that the program that is put in place is practical and in the end accomplishes what the general public wants.... cleaner air, regardless of what equipment is on the car.

[camcojb]

IMO, I believe there WILL be regular smog checks on older cars in the future and alot of us are going to be really pissed off with no way of renewing our registration until extensive retrofitting is done. As has been said many times, the best way (most logical)to probably do it is to put the sniffer on it to meet a minimum standard, but since we arent making the rules, our only hope is to consolidate and support SEMA and hope that the program that is put in place is practical and in the end accomplishes what the general public wants.... cleaner air, regardless of what equipment is on the car.
which brings up another thing in regards to adding cats. In California you cannot purchase cats anymore from retailers, even those specifically legal for sale in California. You have to buy them from a licensed installer. If I wanted to add two carb certified cats to an older car with a swapped engine to be legal I cannot buy them anymore from the local auto parts house, Summit, etc. I have to go to a muffler shop who's certified and he will install them.

[EBMC]

which brings up another thing in regards to adding cats. In California you cannot purchase cats anymore from retailers, even those specifically legal for sale in California. You have to buy them from a licensed installer. If I wanted to add two carb certified cats to an older car with a swapped engine to be legal I cannot buy them anymore from the local auto parts house, Summit, etc. I have to go to a muffler shop who's certified and he will install them.
True, we put Cats on 600hp LS3 chevelle we just completed (just to be different)and I had to go around our main parts supplier and work some backroom deal directly with someone from the manufacturer :hammer:

[camcojb]

True, we put Cats on 600hp LS3 chevelle we just completed (just to be different)and I had to go around our main parts supplier and work some backroom deal directly with someone from the manufacturer :hammer:
so since you do the swaps in California, do you know the true legalities as far as cats, evap, etc. when doing the late model EFI engine into these older cars?

Jody

[406 Q-ship]

in the quote below the guy spoke directly with a ref from BAR......... still said you need cats, evap, etc.




I guess what we need is someone who's done this exact swap and been through the ref process. Thing is most of these swaps are done in pre-smog testing cars, muscle cars for example. Doesn't make them legal, just means they haven't had to test them. Has anyone out there in California done a later LS swap into an older car and had to go to the referee?


Jody

That is why you need to read the regs and then confront the ref with the info. I contacted the BAR ref that is right over here and told him that I was going to install a 1994 LT1 out of a Z28 in a 1974 Chevy C10 and that the truck was not orignally equipped with cats but did have EVAP. I explained that the Cats and Evap were considered chassis emisson and the cats should not be required for the swap to be legal, he agreed as long as the tailpipe emissions were the same or cleaner, as the 1974 C10 required. If the my truck was clean to the standard of a 74 light duty truck then a tag would be affixed to the door jam listing all the equipment for it to pass. I had the option to install cats to clean it up if I wanted too.

I did emission legal conversions of GM diesel cars and truck back in the 1980's when GM did those crappy 5.7 olds diesel, so I got versed in Cali smog laws. I was even doing a 4.3 conversion of the s10/s15 back when the biggest engine in the S series truck was a 2.8. It is amazing the misconceptions from even the smog check people.


I must clear up a point that Jody is very much right on though. On an OBDII vehicle (all the LS series vehicles) they have an extra O2 sensor that is read by the powertrain module, which tells the CPU if the cats are working. You can not reflash the CPU to mask the code for the rear O2, so yes any engine after 1996 (some 1995s) will have too cats for the swap to be legal.

[wmhjr]

What I'm reading from all of this is that for the betterment of the car hobby, we should all pray that CA falls off the rest of the continent soon before there is any further infection.....

[DynoDon]

I swapped a 1988 Mustang 5.0 into a 1986 F-150. I had to go to the referee to get the new Smog Vin sticker attached. In order to do this I had to install EVERYTHING that was emissions related to the newer motor. This included the cats, Fuel Tank Evap, even the Dash check engine light.
There was also an issue that came up because it turns out that certain year Mustang 5.0's (as well as Corvette's and Z-28) motors were NOT Ca emissions compliant to start with! They were federal motors that California allowed in via smog credit swaps with the manufacturers. Because of that these motors were NOT legal to swap into anything else. The computer in Sacramento kicked back the request for certification based on this and that was confirmed by supervisors there as well. The only way we ended up getting around it was due to the fact that the truck was a federal truck (not originally sold in CA) so we found a loophole. When all was said and done the good part was that any E.O. legal part for a 88 Mustang was now also legal to put on this truck.

[John Wright]

What I'm reading from all of this is that for the betterment of the car hobby, we should all pray that CA falls off the rest of the continent soon before there is any further infection.....
LOL...yeah, I agree. The law makers out there have completely lost their minds and the infection is creeping Eastward.

[DynoDon]

As for swapping an LS for instance into a pre 75 non smog checked car, currently there is no test or compliance requirements for this type of swap. Does that mean it legal? not necessarily, but until California decides to start a testing procedure for pre 75 cars there won't be any clear rulings on this, nor will anybody really care.
The truth is the pre 75 rule had to do with when Cats first became mandatory in CA and CARB has admitted that the earlier cars systems were not effective to start with, parts are hard to come by and there isn't a significant number of them on the road to make much difference to the air quality in the first place. And of those cars the mileage driven is comparatively small per year as well.
A lot of this has come about due to registration issues within the Street Rod industry and how those cars are being illegally titled and certified. Out of that came the E Rod engine program and that actually allows guys with 75 and later cars to legally swap in the LS motor package with minimum hassles.

[Mike Holleman]

Mike, the law reguarding smog for pre 96 and newer than 35 year old vehicles, is all original smog equip has to be present, it doesn't have to necessarily work, they do a visual inspection, no sniff test. If you transplant a newer engine, the smog equip. from the donor has to be present visually. I just went through this with an 86 pick-up that I installed a 5.3 in.

The law for titling foreign ( out of state ) 35 year old and older cars has changed. I got caught up in this and got pissed and hired an attorney. Myself,father,local car clubs, and the attorney fought the DMV for 18 months and got the law changed. They are only allowed to verify the vin tag to the title upon inspection unless they find some reason to believe the tag has been changed or altered ( they had better believe they can charge you with a crime ). You can get the car registered immediately but you have to have the vin verified to get a title, which they allow you 1 year to get the vin tag inspected. There are also provisions to receive a non-op title now so you can title a project before you invest your money into it. This was a long hard fight that ultimately resulted in the DMV commisioner being forced to resign and the current one being on the hot seat. If you ever have a titling problem with a classic car contact me, my attorney loves taking the DMV to the mat and he does it pro bono now. I think he just loves the fight.

That all makes sense. You definately have an easier time with DMV if the title work is all in line before you modify. So if you stick an LS engine in a newer than 35 year old car you will need to keep the cats in place?
Mike

[camcojb]

That is why you need to read the regs and then confront the ref with the info. I contacted the BAR ref that is right over here and told him that I was going to install a 1994 LT1 out of a Z28 in a 1974 Chevy C10 and that the truck was not orignally equipped with cats but did have EVAP. I explained that the Cats and Evap were considered chassis emisson and the cats should not be required for the swap to be legal, he agreed as long as the tailpipe emissions were the same or cleaner, as the 1974 C10 required. If the my truck was clean to the standard of a 74 light duty truck then a tag would be affixed to the door jam listing all the equipment for it to pass. I had the option to install cats to clean it up if I wanted too.

I did emission legal conversions of GM diesel cars and truck back in the 1980's when GM did those crappy 5.7 olds diesel, so I got versed in Cali smog laws. I was even doing a 4.3 conversion of the s10/s15 back when the biggest engine in the S series truck was a 2.8. It is amazing the misconceptions from even the smog check people.


I must clear up a point that Jody is very much right on though. On an OBDII vehicle (all the LS series vehicles) they have an extra O2 sensor that is read by the powertrain module, which tells the CPU if the cats are working. You can not reflash the CPU to mask the code for the rear O2, so yes any engine after 1996 (some 1995s) will have too cats for the swap to be legal.
thanks for the info. And thanks for addressing what was going to be my next question regarding the pre and post cat O2's........... :smoke: Since you cannot legally disable any dtc's the O2's without any cats would be an issue.



Jody

[EBMC]

so since you do the swaps in California, do you know the true legalities as far as cats, evap, etc. when doing the late model EFI engine into these older cars?

Jody
Since there are many varibles, any specific legal questions should really be addressed to the BAR to avoid any misinformation.

[buickfunnycar.com]

I just spent the last week in Monterey at the auctions trying to sell a '32 Ford Coupe. Turns out because it has a late model engine it could not be sold to anyone in California. Nice to know after the fact! Another interesting point is in California the buyer has a right to return the car for any reason! But then again its ok for the Motel to gouge 599.00 per night for a basic room....

Each and every car there had to have a sticker put on windshield saying its known in the State of California that the car could cause cancer!
I think the cancer is in the crooks making the laws!

In Arizona it did not matter what engine you had if it was '66 or older.
Now in California they go after you with a 1932 Ford.

You seriously paid $600/night for a room?

Where...I wanna know.

[71RS/SS396]

That all makes sense. You definately have an easier time with DMV if the title work is all in line before you modify. So if you stick an LS engine in a newer than 35 year old car you will need to keep the cats in place?
Mike

Yes, but not just the cats,also egr,air,evap...etc all the smog equip. for the year of the donor engine. I'm not sure what you would have to do for a crate engine other than the e-rod package. This also would depend on how thorough the shop is inspecting it. I did mine correctly and took it to a local repair shop for inspection and they never opened the hood or looked for the cats.

[John Wright]

So to keep all of the smog stuff operative in an older vehicle....do you also need to have the fuel tank from the newer vehicle that went with the engine? Doesn't the computer look at the evap system also(ie loose gas cap sets a code).

[Mike Holleman]

So to keep all of the smog stuff operative in an older vehicle....do you also need to have the fuel tank from the newer vehicle that went with the engine? Doesn't the computer look at the evap system also(ie loose gas cap sets a code).
By what Tim has said, the equipment needs to be "in place". Not functional. Most shops would not know what is required in a swap that does not get emissions tested. The one's that are tested are hooked directly up to the State's system. You either pass or fail. No grey area.
In our State the best bet is to build vehicles at least 35 year models old. No safety inspection. 1975 or older in 2010. My next build will be a 97 Firebird but luckily it will not be street legal. LSR and track car.

[Bryce]

which brings up another thing in regards to adding cats. In California you cannot purchase cats anymore from retailers, even those specifically legal for sale in California. You have to buy them from a licensed installer. If I wanted to add two carb certified cats to an older car with a swapped engine to be legal I cannot buy them anymore from the local auto parts house, Summit, etc. I have to go to a muffler shop who's certified and he will install them.

I was able to buy a cat from CATCO a few years ago. This was a special 3 way CARB legal OBDII cat for a dodge dakota. It was also a hi flow. I bought it through summit with a catco part number. Installed it myself with no issues.

I dont let anybody work on my cars, Nobody has the same passion for my car as I do. If I want it done perfect I do it myself.

[Bryce]

Side note:

My 95 mustang with 130K miles and bolt ons passed smog last weekend with 0 HC, .01 CO and 70 NO. Can I get a low/no emissions sticker.

[406 Q-ship]

I was able to buy a cat from CATCO a few years ago. This was a special 3 way CARB legal OBDII cat for a dodge dakota. It was also a hi flow. I bought it through summit with a catco part number. Installed it myself with no issues.

I dont let anybody work on my cars, Nobody has the same passion for my car as I do. If I want it done perfect I do it myself.

It is in the last year or two that California has made it a violation to sell catalytics to end users, there is a list of items Summit will not ship to Cali due to new regs. I need to get the hell outta of this repressive state.