PHR project G/28 off course already?

[LowBuckX]

Wasnt G/28 supposed to be a Low buck build up? If Im wrong stop reading here.

If Im right where does an $8000 engine fall under low buck?
Full Lunati rotating assembly? $800 crank shaft touted as "CHEAP".

Now to the people that just scouled and mumbled that $8000 is not alot of money Please stop reading here because you just dont get it.
$8000 is nearly 1/3 my yearly earning before taxes.

That motor could be built for half that and attain the power levels they made and take the added NOS shot they speak of down the road.
Are people just not aware of the rest of the people in this country who are average earners? And dont give me "You get what you pay for" Or "if you cant afford the hobby get out of it"
Ive spanked many a high dollar car with my $2000 355 And it has 75K HARD miles on it now with no signs of weaken but for a cough of oil through the valve guides. Rant over Fire suit at the ready

[69rs]

You idiot!!! Are you out of your mind!!!:slap: :getout:

:lmao: I am SO kidding!:poke: In the articles, Johnny stated he thought they could get where they wanted to be for $20,000. Not low buck in a general sense, but pretty cheap for a capable P/T car.

[trapin]

It's a nice premise for an article but there was more they could have done to drop the price. What I mean is...they made wise choices as far as chosing parts but they weren't very creative when it came to achieving cost effectiveness in other areas. I e-mailed Johnny a number of tips that spoke to this. One was the use of a modified original steering box instead of purchasing the AGR. The savings are in the area of $200. Maybe not a lot to some but to us 'little people' it's a crap load of money. I've been there....believe me if somebody knows how to pinch a penny in this hobby, it's me. You won't find a bigger cheapskate. I still like the project though, there is still some good information in there. As for the engine, $8000 is pretty extreme for a budget car. I am building my 406 and have it priced out at around $5500 for the long block. On eBay there's a reputable crate engine builder called AR Racing Engines in West Virginia that typically sells 400+ horsepower 383 Stroker (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7974240845&category=33615) motors for around $3500. They've been at it for about 4 years now and they have an impeccable feedback score. My cousin Dean bought one for $3800 (that was for everthing, from the carb down to the oil pan) and it's run strong for 2 years now. You gotta do some slueth work....where there's a will, there's a way.

[Q ship]

One was the use of a modified original steering box instead of purchasing the AGR. The savings are in the area of $200. Maybe not a lot to some but to us 'little people' it's a crap load of money.
One more time......magazine articles are ALL ABOUT pleasing the advertisers! Why does this fact elude people? Enjoy the pictures, take what tech away that you can, and continue on!

[Steve1968LS2]

Wasnt G/28 supposed to be a Low buck build up? If Im wrong stop reading here.

If Im right where does an $8000 engine fall under low buck?
Full Lunati rotating assembly? $800 crank shaft touted as "CHEAP".

Now to the people that just scouled and mumbled that $8000 is not alot of money Please stop reading here because you just dont get it.
$8000 is nearly 1/3 my yearly earning before taxes.

That motor could be built for half that and attain the power levels they made and take the added NOS shot they speak of down the road.
Are people just not aware of the rest of the people in this country who are average earners? And dont give me "You get what you pay for" Or "if you cant afford the hobby get out of it"
Ive spanked many a high dollar car with my $2000 355 And it has 75K HARD miles on it now with no signs of weaken but for a cough of oil through the valve guides. Rant over Fire suit at the ready

Huh? The stated total to hit the performace goals stated was $20,000. A running total for the budget is printed with every installment.

The entire motor from oil pan to carb to distributor was $6895 plus an additional $600 for dyno tuning. If you read the running total that is plainly printed in the July issue you will see that the car is currently at $15,959 not counting the money from sold parts (original engine, seats, etc)

The story is not a "junk yard dog built for a little as possible" story.. it's a budget build and $20k is a reasonable amount.. I am sure most people here have more than that in thier cars.

Also remember that the car had to CA smog legal.. every part had to have a CARB number.. we couldn't just build some motor with a HUGE cam to make power.

You have spanked many cars? Have you done ANY testing on your car? Any skidpad numbers? And braking tests using a radar gun? Timed it through cones? What are your quater mile times? 60 foot? Anything? g-28 isn't a drag car.. it is a car that was built to handle and that costs a little more than something built for the 1320.

It sounded more like you were complaining about your yearly earnings more than what Johnny paid for his motor..

Also.. Post up the parts list and show us how you would build this smog-legal aluminum headed 383 that runs reliably on 91 octane from carb to pan for $3400. Keep in mind that to be fair we use list price for any parts we get for free.

Not bitching at you but I think you need to see the big picture. Also, for the record I work at PHR so I am a bit biased.. :)

[Steve1968LS2]

It's a nice premise for an article but there was more they could have done to drop the price. What I mean is...they made wise choices as far as chosing parts but they weren't very creative when it came to achieving cost effectiveness in other areas. I e-mailed Johnny a number of tips that spoke to this. One was the use of a modified original steering box instead of purchasing the AGR. The savings are in the area of $200. Maybe not a lot to some but to us 'little people' it's a crap load of money. I've been there....believe me if somebody knows how to pinch a penny in this hobby, it's me. You won't find a bigger cheapskate. I still like the project though, there is still some good information in there. As for the engine, $8000 is pretty extreme for a budget car. I am building my 406 and have it priced out at around $5500 for the long block. On eBay there's a reputable crate engine builder called AR Racing Engines in West Virginia that typically sells 400+ horsepower 383 Stroker (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7974240845&category=33615) motors for around $3500. They've been at it for about 4 years now and they have an impeccable feedback score. My cousin Dean bought one for $3800 (that was for everthing, from the carb down to the oil pan) and it's run strong for 2 years now. You gotta do some slueth work....where there's a will, there's a way.

Again, this wasn't mean as a "how cheap can you do it" story.. and given the year of the car and california smog laws there were restrictions on the motor. Parts with CARB numbers cost more than general parts because there are less choices. Sure, there were cheaper ways some of the things but so long as the car hits its performance goals and stays under the target then all is good.

My Mustang isn't going to be a junkyard dog either.. my target will be around $20k.. maybe a little more with paint.

Maybe we need to do a project where we only use parts from wrecking yards and swap meets. If you want a built on a budget story then read the August issue about the nice $10k Nova..

[Steve1968LS2]

One more time......magazine articles are ALL ABOUT pleasing the advertisers! Why does this fact elude people? Enjoy the pictures, take what tech away that you can, and continue on!

I don't know if is ALL about pleasing advertisers but that does factor into it.. advertisements = more pages of edit (the fun stuff you like to read).. building a car from junk that uses no aftermarket parts might be entertaining but it would probley piss off advertisers to some degree if you did it all the time.

But to be honest.. I wouldn't put any part on my car if I didn't think it was good.. even if it was free. And g-28 is nice because the testing done on the car gives some sort of real world feedback if the parts are doing more than looking pretty.

Keep in mind that magazines are businesses.. and they are entertainment and educational. They are not PBS :) -- Like Q-ship said.. take the information contained and apply it to your situation.

[69rs]

Yeah! What he said!:lol:

[Nine Ball]

my target will be around $20k.. maybe a little more with paint...

BWAHAHAHAHA! Anyone that knows Steve should get a good laugh at that statement. Once he starts, he can't stop making things perfect. Perfection costs money :hammer:

Come on Steve, set the final project value and adhere to it. Make it more challenging!

Tony

[Steve1968LS2]

BWAHAHAHAHA! Anyone that knows Steve should get a good laugh at that statement. Once he starts, he can't stop making things perfect. Perfection costs money :hammer:

Come on Steve, set the final project value and adhere to it. Make it more challenging!

Tony

Nah.. this is a magazine car.. build it.. enjoy it.. sell it and move on to next project..

I will always have two deals not.. MY car that I am overly anal about and the one for the stories..

I haven't even gotten the car yet.. hard to set a budget :)

[trapin]

OK I'M SORRY....I APOLOGIZE!!!! :attn:

I had forgotten about the $20,000 mandate. I also forgot that he was able to squeeze the car into that budget as well (I just re-read the article). I'll be sure to catch that Nova article in the August issue. Sounds kick ass.


O.K I'm leaving now. Have a good one. :getout:

[Steve1968LS2]

OK I'M SORRY....I APOLOGIZE!!!! :attn:

I had forgotten about the $20,000 mandate. I also forgot that he was able to squeeze the car into that budget as well (I just re-read the article). I'll be sure to catch that Nova article in the August issue. Sounds kick ass.

O.K I'm leaving now. Have a good one. :getout:

No.. stick around.. I like being right.. :doh:

[LowBuckX]

Huh? The stated total to hit the performace goals stated was $20,000. A running total for the budget is printed with every installment.

The entire motor from oil pan to carb to distributor was $6895 plus an additional $600 for dyno tuning. If you read the running total that is plainly printed in the July issue you will see that the car is currently at $15,959 not counting the money from sold parts (original engine, seats, etc)

The story is not a "junk yard dog built for a little as possible" story.. it's a budget build and $20k is a reasonable amount.. I am sure most people here have more than that in thier cars.

Also remember that the car had to CA smog legal.. every part had to have a CARB number.. we couldn't just build some motor with a HUGE cam to make power.

You have spanked many cars? Have you done ANY testing on your car? Any skidpad numbers? And braking tests using a radar gun? Timed it through cones? What are your quater mile times? 60 foot? Anything? g-28 isn't a drag car.. it is a car that was built to handle and that costs a little more than something built for the 1320.

It sounded more like you were complaining about your yearly earnings more than what Johnny paid for his motor..[/COLOR]

Also.. Post up the parts list and show us how you would build this smog-legal aluminum headed 383 that runs reliably on 91 octane from carb to pan for $3400. Keep in mind that to be fair we use list price for any parts we get for free.

Not bitching at you but I think you need to see the big picture. Also, for the record I work at PHR so I am a bit biased.. :)

Testy Testy Sorry $7495 And yes I do include the dyno time $600 wasted if you ask me. And no Im not whinning about my wages YOU sir are not in touch with the cold hard reality that everyone cant do what you do. You had my respect but lost it with your personal attack on me.
PS I can give you numbers on my cars performance but judging by PHRs short lived testing on cars and those miserable numbers I just dont need to. Also I dont give a rats behind about C.A.R.B thats all yours and keep it in the land of fruits and nuts

[Van B]

Q ship hit it on the head. How many companies will advertise in a magazine when their shiny new parts don't go into the projects contained in the pages?

Remember Hot Rod magazine when Magnante was in control? I don't think stories on Cadillac motored Chevettes made copies fly off the newsstands.

Face it, it is not our measly $1 an issue subscription rates that pay the bills.

Off my soapbox now.

[TonyL]

easy guys.

lets not make this about who makes how much money or about each other. it'll get this thread locked in a hurry.

the car had set guidelines to follow. it's published in every article about the car. They had a right to spend $ how they saw fit. youre supposed to take what they did and apply what you've learned. Dont like that they spent that much money? then dont on your car. Apply the things you liked.

[LowBuckX]

Wasnt G/28 supposed to be a Low buck build up? If Im wrong stop reading here.

How did the first sentance in the first post get skipped over buy so many people. :rtfm:

[nancejd]

I don't think it was suppossed to be "low buck", it was suppossed to be realistic. The reality is that the majority of guys building a project are going to be able to spend 20K on their car, including the vehicle itself. I think the point that was trying to be made with the series is that it doesn't take a six figure number to build a car that you can go out and have a whole lot of fun with. Remember that most people do not have the fab or engineering skills that some do in our forum, or even know that there is a place where they can go and ask questions about how to do that kind of stuff. They buy things and bolt them on their car. That is going to cost money.

You have to build cars for the prices in the area that you live, and the magazines for the most part are located in California. That means CARB, and underhood inspections, and the lot. The magazines have to make street cars smog legal or they would be worthless, because you couldn't put a plate on it.

You say you don't have to deal with it, well give it ten years, it's spreading. Both coasts are rapidly moving towards adopting CAs standards, and once that happens, the EPA will just step in to "stanadardize" everything, just wait and see.

[Steve1968LS2]

Testy Testy Sorry $7495 And yes I do include the dyno time $600 wasted if you ask me. And no Im not whinning about my wages YOU sir are not in touch with the cold hard reality that everyone cant do what you do. You had my respect but lost it with your personal attack on me.
PS I can give you numbers on my cars performance but judging by PHRs short lived testing on cars and those miserable numbers I just dont need to. Also I dont give a rats behind about C.A.R.B thats all yours and keep it in the land of fruits and nuts

Im not being testy.. if anything your initial post was "testy".. I don't know where you were going with your post.. in the REAL WORLD $20k is hardley a high budget build..

You basicly called johnny (and PHR) idiots for what they spent on the motor.. also you seem to forget what the pourpose of the entire build was.. handling..

I only asked for data because you gave none.. yet we will end up data tracking every aspect of the car.

You initial post set the "tone" for the rest of the thread.. If you can't stand the heat of the oven you turned on then maybe you should try a lower setting? Why did you pick the number $8000??? Was it for dramatic effect? a proper rounding would be $7000.. Then again it helps your argument to embellish i guess..

In short, if your opening post is more civil then you get a more civil response i guess. I appologize if I got a bit hot but that is human nature I guess. Keep in mind that any story is written for hundreds of thousands of readers and not just you.. If we built the car for $5000 I would probley be hearing from someone complaining that nobody spends that LITTLE on thier car and that the story is worthless for the average person. See what I mean? It is like being an umpire in a ball game, half the people are always left "shorted" in some way.

I don't take anyting on the internet personally.. so no hard feelings on my end. I appologize again if you felt "flamed".. then again you put on your "flame suit" so you must of know what you said was flamable :)

[Steve1968LS2]

[QUOTE=69LT1]Face it, it is not our measly $1 an issue subscription rates that pay the bills.
[\QUOTE]

Actually.. you would be shocked at how little the mag makes on a subscription.. a couple of pennies as I recall.. Like commercials on TV advertising is a necessary thing and foots the cost of the magazine.

What ever happened to just posting a nice question about something rather than a rant.. something about flys and honey..

[Flynlo416]

[QUOTE=69LT1]Face it, it is not our measly $1 an issue subscription rates that pay the bills.
[\QUOTE]

Actually.. you would be shocked at how little the mag makes on a subscription.. a couple of pennies as I recall.. Like commercials on TV advertising is a necessary thing and foots the cost of the magazine.

What ever happened to just posting a nice question about something rather than a rant.. something about flys and honey..

Steve, I think you as a writer for a major publication should just let this go. For one thing this is a stupid argument. For two I think we are all car lovers here and can agree to disagree. For three I think the G/28 is cool and everybody should have fun with their project and RELAX!

[Steve1968LS2]

[QUOTE=Steve1969LS1]

Steve, I think you as a writer for a major publication should just let this go. For one thing this is a stupid argument. For two I think we are all car lovers here and can agree to disagree. For three I think the G/28 is cool and everybody should have fun with their project and RELAX!

Let what go??? I even appologized... :dunno:

Oh, and I am a board member first.. If I could be like Mark Twain and use a pen name I would have.. If I stated anything untrue then let me know so I can retract it..

Anyways.. group hug??? :grouphug:

[Nine Ball]

my Sister's first car was exactly like the G/28, even the exact same color. So, it is interesting to see what is being done on this project.

$7K for an engine isn't a big deal. Those cars NEED the oomph under the hood.

Tony

[DarkBuddha]

Hey, if you wanna complain about the g/28 project, make 'em really stick to their budget. I've mentioned this before and it got glossed, but I wanna see 'em keep real, as in real world like the rest of us have gotta do.

For example, they bought 2 incorrect rims and proceeded to ruin them, so they conveniently got 2 replacements that fit right. Well, I wanna see 'em keep those 2 extra wheels in the tally.

Oh, and what about the new tires... are they gonna add the new set costs on top of the first set? I certainly hope so.

And I wanna see every alignment they do get added to the tally too. Very few real life guys do their own alignments.

And I sure as heck would like 'em to include all "testing" costs, whether they're dyno costs, track day/autocross costs, etc., 'cause the rest of us would have to pay that coin too to figure out if our crap is working right. At a bare minimum, I expected 'em to include the dyno costs.

My point is that if they want to earn my respect, they should finally do what no magazine has ever really done, which is come completely clean about what it is to really build a car. Every nickel and dime thing should be included, from cans of paint to liquid wrench to tool rental and tool costs if it's beyond the typical Craftsman 5 drawer stuff and basic air and power tools and 5hp compressor. What's it cost to go get a lousy spring compressor, balljoint splitter, etc. on a Friday afternoon?

Why is this important? 'Cause I'm tired of crazy magazine lies about budgets and misleading the readers. Why else do guys end up dropping $50K into a project and wonder why their wives and families left 'em? What they're thinking to themselves is "well the magazine did it for $20k, but I can do it cheaper, so I can't be into it for more than the magazine guys." Yeah, right...

Enough from me... :hammer:

[Kenova]

I would like to point out that the first G/28 story also mentioned that the vast majority of people take more than a year or two to build their cars. G/28 is going together quicker than most buildups simply because it's necessary to hold the readers attention. What has been accomplished so far would take me more than a few years. That's just the reality of my budget.
Some people freak at the thoughts of spending $20,000 on a car over a year or three, but wouldn't think twice about spending twice that, or more, on a new car.
As for the engine buildup, I too would want to put the best parts I can afford into it, even if it means waiting an extra year or two. I just can't beat on an engine if I have any doubts as to the quality of the bottom end. Too damned much respect for machinery I guess.
Ken

P.S.
If Johnny isn't done with this series soon, I'll probably wind up with a "truck bumper car" in my garage.

[MrQuick]

Yeah whats all the complaining about...20K budget is low buckish...8k motor ok thats great. I mean by the time its done they can sell it for 15K.? Do a low buck drag build up my style...with a 20K budget...$500 for car, $500 for slicks, $1000 for rear end, $1000 trans and $17,000 on engine & fuel system. Remember it has to be reliable and pretty.

[Steve1968LS2]

Hey, if you wanna complain about the g/28 project, make 'em really stick to their budget. I've mentioned this before and it got glossed, but I wanna see 'em keep real, as in real world like the rest of us have gotta do.

For example, they bought 2 incorrect rims and proceeded to ruin them, so they conveniently got 2 replacements that fit right. Well, I wanna see 'em keep those 2 extra wheels in the tally.

Oh, and what about the new tires... are they gonna add the new set costs on top of the first set? I certainly hope so.

And I wanna see every alignment they do get added to the tally too. Very few real life guys do their own alignments.

And I sure as heck would like 'em to include all "testing" costs, whether they're dyno costs, track day/autocross costs, etc., 'cause the rest of us would have to pay that coin too to figure out if our crap is working right. At a bare minimum, I expected 'em to include the dyno costs.

My point is that if they want to earn my respect, they should finally do what no magazine has ever really done, which is come completely clean about what it is to really build a car. Every nickel and dime thing should be included, from cans of paint to liquid wrench to tool rental and tool costs if it's beyond the typical Craftsman 5 drawer stuff and basic air and power tools and 5hp compressor. What's it cost to go get a lousy spring compressor, balljoint splitter, etc. on a Friday afternoon?

Why is this important? 'Cause I'm tired of crazy magazine lies about budgets and misleading the readers. Why else do guys end up dropping $50K into a project and wonder why their wives and families left 'em? What they're thinking to themselves is "well the magazine did it for $20k, but I can do it cheaper, so I can't be into it for more than the magazine guys." Yeah, right...

Enough from me... :hammer:

The cost of testing added in?? :dunno:

That is done more for the readers than the car.. how many people here test their car? I think that is getting a little picky..

I didn't think Johnny ruined two wheels.. one got dented but it is getting fixed.. I suppose that could be added in or sold and the funds reapplied to the budget.. is that allowed? Do we have to add in the cost of tools? ;) -- gas?

Also, I told Johnny he needs to add in the money made from selling the parts off the car.. old motor.. old seats.. ac unit.. etc..

And to be fair about magazines "lies" when we put down a price for something it is the suggested list price.. not some GP price or internet real world special price.

Anyways.. it is Johnnys car and his gig.. Just for you I will track every penny to build my mustang project.. but im not gonna get silly and put down a can of oil for my air wrench that I needed to work on the car.. or if I have to buy a new tool since that tool is not part of the car but part of my tool collection that I use one other cars as well.

deal?

[LowBuckX]

Wasnt G/28 supposed to be a Low buck build up? If Im wrong stop reading here.
Again This thread would have been gone already if this sentance wasnt glossed over. And Steve Read my Original post again I didnt attack anyone personally I just questioned something and was wrong my first sentance stated i could be wrong from the getgo.
Now you attacked a few members and myself.

[Protour_Pinto]

I also read that G/28 was used for some testing for a sister mag also. I think its great when 2 or 3 mags get involved on a project. It gives more options. Its good to see where the other people in our HOBBY are going.

I read every car mag I can get my hands on. I get ideas form the streetrods to the NASCAR guys and gals.

Sometimes its fun just to pen to paper and build a virtual car. We all do it in one way or another when we build our real cars, It usually starts with the drawings like Kris and others do here.

The money the mags make is not from the $$ we spend at the newsstands or subs. Its in the adverts and events. When the aftermarket sees an intrest they usually fill it. Look at the market the F bodys and mustangs opened up? They have so many options when it comes to everything! The unpopular cars just have to gleen what ever they print and just run with it.

[DarkBuddha]

First, Steve, thank you for taking the time to engage this. I love a good dialog and I don't want to seem unreasonable, but I think I've got some good reasons for wanting to see this stuff. I guess what I'm really wanting for is a common sense approach that keeps readers believing in the project rather than rolling their eyes every time the magazine does something only folks in magazine-land can do (or can afford to do). This isn't happening excessively with g/28 like it has with a lot of magazine projects of the past. In fact, it is doing a much more honest job in general, which is to be applauded. But you guys have to recognize you're stuck with the stigma of past transgressions. So what to do about it?

The cost of testing added in?? :dunno:

That is done more for the readers than the car.. how many people here test their car? I think that is getting a little picky..
Yeah, there isn't a real solution for this one, but I wish there was one. It is a problem I think a lot of us in reader-land suffer. I really do appreciate the magazine doing real testing for the readers sake. But heck, anyone who's built a car like the g/28 needs to do testing too to make sure it works right. This is one scary proposition on the street, but it's what most of us do. I hate that. The safer alternatives are autocrosses with skidpads, track days, drag tracks, etc., which means extra coin. And you may say that it isn't done for the car, but do you think g/28 would actually make it's goals for under $20k without maximizing its potential through testing and tuning? Testing and tuning is a must.

I didn't think Johnny ruined two wheels.. one got dented but it is getting fixed.. I suppose that could be added in or sold and the funds reapplied to the budget.. is that allowed? Do we have to add in the cost of tools? ;) -- gas?

Also, I told Johnny he needs to add in the money made from selling the parts off the car.. old motor.. old seats.. ac unit.. etc..
I thought it was both, but ok... Still, I figure if you buy a part and it doesn't work, or you ruin it, or you upgrade, include it in the tally. If you can return it or sell it, then include that return in the tally. Otherwise, eat the cost like the rest of us with stacks of parts in our garages/carports/storage spaces/sheds. I think a lot more folks could build kick ass sub $20K machines if they could ignore all the parts that didn't work, or got upgraded, or broke. R&D costs money.

As for tools, this is another difficult one... Sure you often have to buy tools as you do projects to build up your collection, but if you have to buy/rent a special tool that isn't part of your usual set, then I think you should include it. I doubt the average builder is as fully equipped as I suspect you guys are (based on the photos in the story), so if you guys have to buy/rent/borrow something, then you better believe the rest of us do. Seems reasonable to me.

And for the bits and pieces stuff... Gas? No. Oil for the new motor build? Maybe. Bodywork supplies (gallons of bondo, grinder discs and sandpaper, squeegies, etc.)? Yes. 4 sets of different temp plugs? Heck yes.

And to be fair about magazines "lies" when we put down a price for something it is the suggested list price.. not some GP price or internet real world special price.
This is a very admirable position actually. Some will probably say it comes out in the wash once you consider shipping costs for most readers. But I have to believe even after shipping and ordering fees, you're probably hurting yourselves by 5%-7% on parts costs.

Anyways.. it is Johnnys car and his gig..
I agree its Johnny's car and gig, but if we all went around just accepting what others do without some sort of critical (not meant here in the typical subjective negative connotation) eye, then everything would end up having equal value and validity. So, when we see stuff that strikes us, it seems we should investigate and attempt to resolve those things.

Just for you I will track every penny to build my mustang project.. but im not gonna get silly and put down a can of oil for my air wrench that I needed to work on the car.. or if I have to buy a new tool since that tool is not part of the car but part of my tool collection that I use one other cars as well.

deal?
Deal and a half, but don't do it just for me. Hell, I've got my own Mustang project with a brutal tally running. Still, if you do it, no silliness, no air wrench oil, no drill bits. Not even the welder or 15 body clamps you'll need when you replace the cowl hats. But if you buy a gallon of POR15 to slather on that new cowl to prevent it from rusting ever again, then maybe... :naughty:

[Steve1968LS2]

Again This thread would have been gone already if this sentance wasnt glossed over. And Steve Read my Original post again I didnt attack anyone personally I just questioned something and was wrong my first sentance stated i could be wrong from the getgo.
Now you attacked a few members and myself.

Maybe if you would have read the articles you wouldn't have even made the post?

Ive attacked a few members?? :lol: Who? How?

All I did was ask if you had any performance numbers on your car and pointed out that g-28 is not a drag car.. it is supposed to beat several performance goals, most of them to do with handling.. You start tearing into and stating that "you could build a motor for half that".. missing the entire point about a smog legal CA motor..

In fact here is your post:


Rant over Fire suit at the ready

So you admitted you were ranting and you that you expected heat.. you get a little heat for your rant and then you complain about it..

I seem to remember appologizing for any mean sounding remarks to you but if you want to be childish and not accept it then fine.. Is discussing anything and not agreeing a flame?

Drama, drama, drama..

[Steve1968LS2]

First, Steve, thank you for taking the time to engage this. I love a good dialog and I don't want to seem unreasonable, but I think I've got some good reasons for wanting to see this stuff. I guess what I'm really wanting for is a common sense approach that keeps readers believing in the project rather than rolling their eyes every time the magazine does something only folks in magazine-land can do (or can afford to do). This isn't happening excessively with g/28 like it has with a lot of magazine projects of the past. In fact, it is doing a much more honest job in general, which is to be applauded. But you guys have to recognize you're stuck with the stigma of past transgressions. So what to do about it?

Hey man.. its all good.. I like to discuss and even debate :)

I see your reasons.. remember that this isn't my project and I might do mine a bit differently.. some of your points seem good and some (to me) seemed a bit over the top.. Hell, only 50% of my ideas are ever worth a damn.. lol

I will be hardcore in tracking the budget on my Mustang.. but it isn't gonna be a LOW buck special.. im thinking $25k with paint and all that fun stuff..


Yeah, there isn't a real solution for this one, but I wish there was one. It is a problem I think a lot of us in reader-land suffer. I really do appreciate the magazine doing real testing for the readers sake. But heck, anyone who's built a car like the g/28 needs to do testing too to make sure it works right. This is one scary proposition on the street, but it's what most of us do. I hate that. The safer alternatives are autocrosses with skidpads, track days, drag tracks, etc., which means extra coin. And you may say that it isn't done for the car, but do you think g/28 would actually make it's goals for under $20k without maximizing its potential through testing and tuning? Testing and tuning is a must.

The problem is how would we bill it? We own the testing equipment so it really doesn't cost anything.. We did coun't the dyno tuning.. the rest of the dyno time is just to show you guys if the parts worked or didn't work..


I thought it was both, but ok... Still, I figure if you buy a part and it doesn't work, or you ruin it, or you upgrade, include it in the tally. If you can return it or sell it, then include that return in the tally. Otherwise, eat the cost like the rest of us with stacks of parts in our garages/carports/storage spaces/sheds. I think a lot more folks could build kick ass sub $20K machines if they could ignore all the parts that didn't work, or got upgraded, or broke. R&D costs money.

Well I came into it late but I do now I only had to get one messed up wheel fixed.. I had a friend that did it for free (personal friend.. not mag related).. I do agree that it should be in there.. sorta.. Anyone reading the story could learn from our mistake and get the right stuff the first time.. lol.. Mostly the change was made in order to go to R compound tires (don't make them in 18") -- again, part of the point is to learn from our errors and not make the same $$ mistake.


As for tools, this is another difficult one... Sure you often have to buy tools as you do projects to build up your collection, but if you have to buy/rent a special tool that isn't part of your usual set, then I think you should include it. I doubt the average builder is as fully equipped as I suspect you guys are (based on the photos in the story), so if you guys have to buy/rent/borrow something, then you better believe the rest of us do. Seems reasonable to me.

If a tool is rented then I agree.. but I have a lot of tools and our shop has a ton as well.. I don't think any were rented.. you point seem reasonable.. I will include tool rental in the mustang build..

[/quote]And for the bits and pieces stuff... Gas? No. Oil for the new motor build? Maybe. Bodywork supplies (gallons of bondo, grinder discs and sandpaper, squeegies, etc.)? Yes. 4 sets of different temp plugs? Heck yes. [/quote]

I was just kidding and being a smart ass on the gas.. oil should be but was part of the price of the motor (had to put oil in it to dyno tune it).. No body work on the car but that should be included for the part of the built that includes that.. any hard part on the car should be counted.. lug nuts for example.. (came with wheels).. but you get the idea..


This is a very admirable position actually. Some will probably say it comes out in the wash once you consider shipping costs for most readers. But I have to believe even after shipping and ordering fees, you're probably hurting yourselves by 5%-7% on parts costs.

We pay shipping also.. but yea.. I would never pay retail for parts.. but some we get for free so it is only fair to report MSRP.. after all what "discounted price" would we use?


I agree its Johnny's car and gig, but if we all went around just accepting what others do without some sort of critical (not meant here in the typical subjective negative connotation) eye, then everything would end up having equal value and validity. So, when we see stuff that strikes us, it seems we should investigate and attempt to resolve those things.

Don't mind critisim.. hell if it is constructive then that is great, it is just nice when people have thier facts right (not talking about anyone specificly)... also it is easy for something on here to sound more harsh than it was meant.. verbal discussions are so much better that way.. I will alway do my best to explain anything I can or to make changes in anything I do.. remember though.. im just the newbie there..


Deal and a half, but don't do it just for me. Hell, I've got my own Mustang project with a brutal tally running. Still, if you do it, no silliness, no air wrench oil, no drill bits. Not even the welder or 15 body clamps you'll need when you replace the cowl hats. But if you buy a gallon of POR15 to slather on that new cowl to prevent it from rusting ever again, then maybe... :naughty:

Check and deal.. :cool: -- see that was easy.. lol.. my car doesn't have to worry about smog so maybe I can build for cheaper and make everyone happy (including myself)..

I always wondered how the slang term Rustang came into being.. ;)

[Rick Dorion]

Since I wouldn't pay list price if I can help it, I think prices from a major mailorder store would be realistic. I enjoy these articles immensely but do want to see all out of pocket expenses. Along the lines of a recent Freiburger editorial. I especially appreciate the quantification of any changes. I almost said 'improvements' but that isn't always the case :)

[Nine Ball]

Steve, you type too damn much. Some people are just too damn critical, so just keep things simple:

1. Magazines pay for testing and tuning to figure what works out FOR the readers. By them doing tests and reporting results, we the readers get the benefit of the knowledge gained. This helps us sometimes make decisions on which components to buy or avoid. I would only include computer tuning costs, etc.., but not dynojet time or track fees. Normal wear items like tires, brake pads, clutches, etc... should only be paid for once. Most of those items get worn from doing the testing FOR the readers.

2. Tools should never be included in the price of a project vehicle. When I purchase a car, it sure doesn't come with $10,000 in tools in the trunk. Project CAR is about the car, not the tools to build it. If you can't build it yourself, you probably aren't reading an article about building a car in the first place.

3. People shouldn't be so critical if it isn't hurting their own wallet with a particular project. If you don't like the results, build your own project car and report everything to us on this site. Thats what I did

[dennis68]

Wasn't G/28 supposed to be a Low buck build up? If I'm wrong stop reading here.

Again This thread would have been gone already if this sentence wasn't glossed over.
Here I come Steve, back-up has arrived.

Shawn, maybe if your original statement had read "maybe I'm wrong about 20K being low buck" this would have gone a different direction. This is article is about a low buck build and 20K IS low buck. I have WAY over 20K in my ride and looks like dog $h!t. I would be happy to drive the G28 the way it sits...and under 20K, wow.

You claim to be able to build a reliable small block for under 2K
Ive spanked many a high dollar car with my $2000 355 And it has 75K HARD miles on it now with no signs of weaken but for a cough of oil through the valve guides. bull s^it. You do not have only 2K (that anyone can build) in a engine that anyone can duplicate, "spanking" high dollar cars...I want receipts for every part at list price to prove it.

Personal attack removed -- admin.


Think about it, can you buy a a half way performance car used for 20K...nope? A used 4th gen goes for 15K, plus you will need the extra 5K to put some tires on it, tune it up, throw a chip in it or do some dyno tuning.

I think that's enough for now...instead of getting in a pissing match about you what low buck is, should have bowed out early.You need to realize that you are the only that thinks 20K is not low buck, that being the case (and I think you already knew it) why put up the post if not looking to see some tempers flare.

Yes, I modified the original quote, but only for speeeling.

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Alright guys, this thread is heading in a completely negative direction. Thread Closed.