Pontiac motorheads...school me!

[Josue]

Needs some schooling on Pontiac motors. I have absolutly NO clue about ANY engine stuff, let alone how to tune a carb, put the right parts together, assemble, etc. I can name most parts, but that's about it...lol

I'll start with my goal. Once I buy my dad's '68 Firebird, I want to address the tired 350/2sp PG. I'm just looking for a nice, reliable, fun driver. Probably take it to the drag strip every now and then, but that's about it. I'd like to be in the low 13 second range, I think that would make for a decently fun car that doesn't drink the gas too much. Naturally, I'd like an LS motor, but I've got a budget to work with...

I'm not asking for a complete parts list or anything (unless you had some suggestions as well) but what I'd like to know is, how far could I take the stock 350 in the car? I know the engine is capable of being built for my goal, but I'm not sure if I want to molest the original block by boring it over however much, throwing a bunch of high perf. parts in it, and running it to it's max. Is there a point when building an engine, where you can't take it any further? When you've done all you can to that block, and now it can never be used again?

And again, I'm CLUELESS about engines, so all of what I just typed might not even be true, those are just the thoughts that come to mind in rebuilding the original engine. I'd hate to modify it to the point where it'd be useless and I just ruined a numbers matching car. We already installed basic bolt on's, Holly 650, Edelbrock intake, mild Comp Cam, and some headers, but the rest is believed to be original (internals, etc.)

Reason for all this is, I've always wanted a 400, and a guy we recently bought parts off of for my dad's '69 convertible, has a 400 block for $200. So it has me thinking about if it'd be better to just do something like that, and build it from there....saving the original block. Or would it be WAY more expensive to start from a bare block like that? I don't know how many of the parts that are on the 350 now, would be reusable in the new build, or if I'd have to basically build the 350 up from the block to achieve my goal?

[critter]

It sounds like you want the cheapest way to get to 13s on the strip. The cheapest way would be to find a running 455 out of a big car and drop it in. Of course you can kiss good gas mileage goodbye with that option. That said, other than an LS motor, I'm not sure how you get decent HP and 25 MPG out of a car. My 462 Pontiac makes roughly 400HP and will run in the 12s but I know the most I can hope for is 12-15mpg out of it.

The 350 is really not a great candidate for a performance build. The 400 is much better suited to that treatment. I'd recommend you spend some time on a couple of Pontiac specific sites and read up on what others are doing. There are multiple vendors offering stroker kits for the Pontiac brand now.

One real issue is heads. The best air flow costs money. But you should be able to pick up some factory cast iron heads and have them ported, or port them yourself if you're willing to learn.

Just my 2 cents.

http://www.transamcountry.com
http://www.performanceyears.com

[wmhjr]

Building a low 13 second pontiac motor isn't quite as cheap as a chebby. It's going to take a bit more than you expect to hit low 13's IMHO.

The 350 Pontiac that you have also has little value to anyone other than you. I would take a hard look at pulling the 350, oiling it down and wrapping it - then put whatever you want in it. Assuming a 20% parasitic loss via drivetrain, you'll need roughly 400hp at the crank and good hook-up to hit a 13.25 1/4mile run. A reliable 400hp probably means decent iron heads, a cam, Melling oil pump, better intake and carb, a little higher compression, and a decent exhaust.

You may also need some tranny work. Assuming the original tranny that came with the 350, I'd guess it's going to be pretty loose and will probably require at least replacing the torque converter and going over the tranny.

With the 2bbl 350 your bird probably came with the pegleg BOP rear end. You might end up spinning that rear tire and not being able to launch to hit a low 13sec pass.

No matter what, I wouldn't expect fuel economy to be great - or to be terrible.

[wmhjr]

BTW, here's a thread that might be helpful.

http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/showthread.php?t=411009&highlight=power+350%21

[rohrt]

Start reading up on the PY site and figure out exactly what you want.

I would pass on building the 350. The bores are just too small.

If you want a fast reliable car get the 400 make sure its a pre 75 block as the later blocks have thin main web castings. I wouldn't build the 400 as a 400 myself to achieve your goals but thats just me.

I would then look at getting a 428 or 455 stroker kit for the 400.

Fordged rods/pistons are a must.
6X-4 heads would work on nice on a 455 and are cheap and plentiful or Get the KRE 290cfm heads.
Everyone loves the continental converter but they are pricey.
I would use RARE exhaust manifolds or Dougs headers
Use a recomended roller cam from http://www.sdperformance.com/ read up on their site they have some good info.

I think your bigger issue will be traction.

You didn't mention a budget. This would define your goals a bit better. There are a lot of ways to go. Just my .02

[Josue]

I'm not expecting 25mpg out of this thing, I'd be happy with 12-15mpg for sure! I just didn't want or need some 6mpg, built to the hill race motor eating a hole in my pocket everytime I drove it...LOL

And I don't know what it is about me, that I'm all nostalgic about having the original block? Realistically, the thing will probably sit around in a bag, taking up space till the end of time. haha Unless I ever decide to sell the car and the new owner cared about having numbers matching as well, but for now, I plan on having this thing for quite some time. We've already had it for 13 years, so I have ALOT of good memories with it!


Building a low 13 second pontiac motor isn't quite as cheap as a chebby. It's going to take a bit more than you expect to hit low 13's IMHO.

The 350 Pontiac that you have also has little value to anyone other than you. I would take a hard look at pulling the 350, oiling it down and wrapping it - then put whatever you want in it. Assuming a 20% parasitic loss via drivetrain, you'll need roughly 400hp at the crank and good hook-up to hit a 13.25 1/4mile run. A reliable 400hp probably means decent iron heads, a cam, Melling oil pump, better intake and carb, a little higher compression, and a decent exhaust.

You may also need some tranny work. Assuming the original tranny that came with the 350, I'd guess it's going to be pretty loose and will probably require at least replacing the torque converter and going over the tranny.

With the 2bbl 350 your bird probably came with the pegleg BOP rear end. You might end up spinning that rear tire and not being able to launch to hit a low 13sec pass.

No matter what, I wouldn't expect fuel economy to be great - or to be terrible.

I should've also mentioned that I will be addressing all the other factors in achieving my goal. Rear end will definately be upgraded, and the 1st thing I'll do is ditch the powerglide in favor of a manual tranny. I'd like a TKO5/600, but I may go with a muncie 4sp if I can find one cheap enough, to put the extra TKO money into other areas that need addressed. That same guy has almost a complete Muncie swap for sale as well; tranny, bell housing, clutch, flywheel, pressure plate, pedals, linkage, speedo cable, hurst shifter, reverse light switch, and some other odds and ends....for $900. But, I'm paying for almost all of my wedding next month, and hell...the car isn't even MINE yet, so I may have to pass.

Budget wise, I don't really have an exact number in mind through all this...I just have an idea of where and how I want this thing to be, and naturally, the cheapest route would be ideal! haha. Not saying that I'm going to cheap out and put a bunch of crap parts on this thing, but I'm not going to buy some $15,000 ZZ crate motor, when I could build a 400 for a few grand. I'm not gonna spend $5,000 in wheels, if I find a set that I like for $2,000. etc...

[Josue]

Also, thanks for the links! I'll be sure to do my research...I'm good for over analyzing purchases...hehe

[AtomicFirebird]

350 blocks can produce good amount of power with the right stroker kit. They won't put out the numbers as easy as the higher blocks will but you can reach 400 hp with the 350. 400 blocks are a better find. They make a lot of parts for the higher block than for the lower ones. Go for the 400 block you won't be sorry and rohrt is right say away from the later blocks. $200 dollar for the 400, are you smoking some illegal stuff, jump on that. I wish I could find a 400 block for that much.

http://www.highperformancepontiac.com/tech/hppp_0712_small_bore_pontiac_engine_build/index.html

[AtomicFirebird]

It has a powerglide, wow. I had a powerglide and the 1st thing I did was buy a TKO 500. It makes the car do amazing things. It would burn those tires in 1st, 2nd and 3rd. When I drove it to my friends shop 30 miles away with the powerglide, the car screamed, I hated that drive. When I was done and the Tremec was in, she purred on the way home. It is a world of difference. Do your homework and take your time, you have lots of time. Figure out what you want to do. Get a game plan or your going to buy stuff and say later, Why did I buy that.

[Josue]

Yea, I called the guy today to get more info on the block and 4sp swap, and he was real hesitant on selling the block, but said he'd give it to me for $200 if I wanted it. He already has a 400 in his 69 with a TKO500. Said it's a 69 block...

And I'd love to have a TKO, but like I said, if I can find a deal on a 4sp setup like this one, I may just go with that for now and save for the TKO swap.

[AtomicFirebird]

You are going to get better mpg with muncie verses the powerglide. Just remember you are still going to get high rpm on the highway.

[Josue]

The TKO wouldn't get better MPG because of the overdrive gear?

[wmhjr]

Yes, the TKO will get better mileage than the Muncie no matter what gearing. The .64 5th of the TKO will allow a poncho powered car to cruise much better.

If you're shooting for low 13s, be a little careful with the Muncie. You're right on the bubble where the Muncie is likely to have issues. Remember that the Muncie was designed for cars typically having less hp on street tires. Think back to the 60s and 70s - how many cars were turning low 13s? Remember that the '70 Challenger w/440 6 pack was clocked at 13.7/105mph. The '66 Vette with the 427/425hp was a 14 second car. Low 13s is going to put a lot of stress on that Muncie. Be ready to rebuild it. Or, just do the right thing and put a TKO in. Sticky tires, good torque and a 13 second pass is not really with the M20/21/22 was designed for.

[Josue]

If I do go with a Muncie temporarily, I don't think I'd build a motor before putting in the TKO. It would just be to have a little more fun while I'm driving/building the car. As it looks, all the other areas that I'm going to hit (suspension, brakes, rear end, steering, wheels/tires) are going to cost a pretty penny, so maybe I could just get the car setup for the added power, then tackle the motor/trans last. There's nothing wrong with the drivetrain right now, minus a slight overheating problem that my dad is too lazy to have someone look at...lol

[OLDFLM]

Get the 400... have it checked and rebuilt... some #13 heads with a mild home-port/cleanup (Get Jim Hand's book!) and a cam in the 224/230 neighborhood with as much lift as possible .485-.500 (manual or power brakes?) on a 110LSA and you'll be where you want to be with a 750 Holley or 800 Q-jet, headers and some 3.42 rear gears!

[rohrt]

I got my HPP mag yesterday. They have a roller 400 build that made 396hp with RA exhaust manifolds. Might be a good way to go for your goal.

[Josue]

I'll have to look for it next time the lady drags me to Borders...lol

Does it show a parts breakdown? That's probably what I'll look for when I build. I could do hours and hours of research on what part does this, what part does that, etc., but if the hard work has already been done and proved it's power, then I might as well follow. Even with all the searching and reading, I probably still won't understand lift duration, porting this that and the other, piston size, boring the block over however much, lifters, etc. That kind of knowledge seems to take years to accumulate, and accumulate the RIGHT knowledge too...'cause there's ALOT of backyard hillbillies and unreputable engine shops that THINK they know what they're doing/talking about!

[critter]

There are a lot of "recipes" in the back of Jim's book from many noted Pontiac engine builders. Jim's book is getting a little dated but it's still worth the money just for the excellent information it contains. Before I got sold on any particular setup I'd read his book, examine the recipe engines offered and then call one of the builders that appeals to you.

I can tell you that almost all the big names, Butler, Kauffman, Spotts, Keefer, etc. will have about the same basic bottom end. The difference will be in the heads and cam choice. I'll also go ahead and tell you that you'll put some $$$ into this any way you decide to slice it. Obviously, if you have the skills to do the assembly yourself you can save a ton. If you don't, it's money well spent to have someone do it right with a warranty.

You also need to think about all the little things that go with this package. Are you going to run a stock intake or a high rise? If it's a high rise do you have hood clearance? What about the exhaust? Stock manifolds are terribly restrictive. Now you have to factor in the cost of headers or Ram Air manifolds plus the exhaust behind it.

See what I mean? I'm not trying to dump cold water on your desire. All I want to do is make sure you understand all of it before you spend the money.

[wmhjr]

Critter is absolutely right in every respect.

Jim Hands book IS a bit dated, and not everyone agrees with everything that Jim prefers. But as a general rule, he provides a great understanding of the pontiac powerplant.

There are some more names other than Butler, Paul Spotts, Kauffman, etc. There are some smaller builders (such as Dave Hillard) who are equally as good and easy to work with. If you're interested let me know and I can privately give you my thoughts and experiences with some of them. There just isn't that much difference in how many of them build bottom ends. The top end is different. Heads and cam are way different. Bottom line is if you want a builder or advisor, make sure they're accomplished at building Pontiacs specifically.

Pontiacs are different motors and I had to put aside my chebby ideas and listen to the guys that know how to make power. It's not cheap - but it isn't REAL expensive either. Low 13s are possible, but it's going to take some money to get everything right.

[AtomicFirebird]

No matter how you slice it, you are going to pay for a Pontiac engine. From the sounds of it, you don't want to pay someone to build the engine for you. You want to do it yourself.. Building a Pontiac motor is almost the same as a Chevy. But there are different tricks, steps and parts for the Pontiac motor. Which a little information can be found in the Pontiac 68 service manual. There is no in depth "How to put a Pontiac Motor Together" book, unlike the Chevy, Mopar and Fords. With all the information, pictures and shops visited by HPP and PE, one would think they would have published a book for the masses.

[Josue]

You also need to think about all the little things that go with this package. Are you going to run a stock intake or a high rise? If it's a high rise do you have hood clearance? What about the exhaust? Stock manifolds are terribly restrictive. Now you have to factor in the cost of headers or Ram Air manifolds plus the exhaust behind it.

Stock style intake for sure. We put an edelbrock intake on it like 10 years ago, but like I said, I don't know how much of what we put on there is reusable? Same thing with the exhaust, we've got Hooker headers on there now, and a full 2.5" Flowmaster dual exhaust with H pipe, so I would hope at least the exhaust is reusable...even if I went with a 400.


From the sounds of it, you don't want to pay someone to build the engine for you. You want to do it yourself.

On the contrary...I'm absolutly going to pay someone to do this for me! haha Like I said, even after hours of research, I probably still won't know enough to pick out the right combo of parts, let alone assemble them and have the motor NOT blow up. lol

[68Formula]

HO Enterprises has some very helpful publications. http://www.hoenterprises.com/WSFF/home.asp?vCompID=27383

Definitely check out Hand's book. He's had a 4000+lb Wagon running 3.55 gears and a bored over 455 engine with a factory intake (he's also switches between that and the Edelbrock RPM), factory heads, and factory carburetor (albeit all tweaked) in the mid-11s. Doesn't use nitrous, electric fans, ultra high gearing, or ultra high stall convertor. Even the hydraulic flat tappet cam (yup not even a roller) is pretty mild for a 455. It's quite a sleeper.

For the differences between a Chevy look here:
http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/showthread.php?t=600012&highlight=chevy+builder

And for some rebuilding advice check out this thread:
http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/showthread.php?t=623671&highlight=building+pontiac+engine

Also you may want to take advantage of the myth that all blocks after 1975 are weaker. First off all, many have gotten 400+ horsepower out of them without problems. More importantly, 1975-1977 were the only three years having the thinner webs (500557 block). After 1977 they reverted back to the 481988 block (the stronger one) until the end of production. Be sure to check the block codes too, since some early1975 and late 1977 were still built with the stronger blocks. If you can find someone that thinks their later year block by default is the weaker 557, you might be able to score it cheap.

[Josue]

That certainly opens up some search options! Seems there's alot more 70's/late 70's 400's out there than late 60's....

[AtomicFirebird]

The numbers you are looking for is 481988xx for the blocks after '75. I have the '73 481988, #16 heads, long branch d-port factory headers from Ram Air, Edelbrock intake with 750 Qjet, TKO 500 and a 3:42 rear end. It produces plenty of power. I wanted a crusier not a bruiser.

[NOT A TA]

I'm going to offer a different approach.

Why not look for an engine that's already built? there's always guys building an engine with more power to replace the one they currently run even though there's nothing wrong with it. There's also basket case car projects for sale where the owner is selling the whole thing for less than half of what they have in the project and sometimes they already have an engine done that hasn't even been fired. Buy the project and sell off everything but the engine.

I wanted an engine for my 70 Firebird to replace the original 350 2V. I put out the word to everyone I knew that I was looking. Found a 68 Lemans Judge clone that was almost finished (they were driving it) except for paint and then had an interior fire in owners driveway. A bud who had worked on the car before the fire let me know about it. Mild engine build with a drag flair to the car.

The engine in the car was a '74 with '68 #16 heads. I bought the car for 1,500.00. Took the whole thing apart in 3 nights after work (easy when everythings almost new!). Gave the tow guys the stripped body and frame for the tow from the owner to me. Sold a pile of the parts on Ebay over a couple weeks and put the original 1,500.00 back in the bank. There was enough profit for a Road Race pan, oil pump, MSD ignition, motor mounts, Flowkooler pump, Speed Demon, Trans cooler, shift kit, and some engine paint. I used the Holley Blue pump and Fram gas filter, chrome high output alternator, and some other small parts from the Lemans since they were new. The headers on the lemans didn't look like they'd work so I just put the stock manifolds from the 350 on. Brought it to the track and ran 13.9s with no distributor or carb adjustments. I still have a fresh T-400 and some other parts left.

The same engine is still in the car 6 years later and gets used at the strip, road race tracks, and Land Speed Racing.

If moneys tight, think out of the box, and be creative. You might end up with that TKO quicker than you'd think!

Now if I can just find someone with a complete Keisler 5 speed perfect fit kit they don't need.........LOL

[Josh69]

I have probably one of the most tricked out 350 Pontiacs out there. My advice is, don't do it! I did it just for something different, and it was the numbers matching block that was already .030 over and ready to go back together. With that said, nobody cares about numbers matching on a 350/2bbl Firebird. If it was an HO with #48 heads, that's a different story, but a regular plain jane coupe is no big deal. FWIW, the good early 400/455 blocks have lasted up to 700hp.

I have a PPR stroker (4" stroke) and .030 overbore for an even 383ci. I have Kaufmann 65cc heads, pocket ported and bowl blended, but not cnc'd, roughly 260cfm. I had a wicked cam but backed it down to a 224/232 Isky @ .050, with .528/.532 lift with 1.65 roller rockers. Tomahawk single plane and Quick Fuel carb. I should be in the 475hp/445ft lb range but I haven't dyno'd it yet.

If that block is a '69 400, don't walk, RUN to buy it. Put a 4" stroker kit in there, .030 overbore and you have a 434. A nice, oversquare motor that will rev and have tons of torque. Some decent flowing big valve heads and you'll have lots of fun. Ace at PPR sells his stroker kits for under $2K with forged goodies and a cast crank. I've been pounding on mine for three years with no issues. There are tons of resources on PY forums, etc. Spend some time reading up on peoples combo's and you'll find out what works and what doesn't pretty quickly.

If you don't want to buy a stroker kit, find a running 400/455. The beauty of the Pontiac, is nearly everything interchanges. Be careful about the water pump style and the accessory drive, try to keep what you have from the 350. Aside from that, you can easily drop a 455 in there in an afternoon and smoke that old peg leg all over town giggling like a schoolgirl.

Also like John said, you can find real good deals on complete motors. I found quite a few complete running fresh builds with dyno sheets a few years ago for around $2500, but I was already building mine.

[wmhjr]

Josh69 is right on.

If you're going to build, find a 400. Actually, with the power goal you want the large journal 455 will be just as good. Personally, I think if you're gonna stroke it just go to the 4.25" stroke and be done with it.

For heads I'm running KRE stuff myself - but honestly I got mine done by SD rather than buying directly from Kauffman. There's a reason for that.

For parts it doesn't get much better than the stuff from Ace at PPR. I'm running his ultralight 4340 I-beam rods. Good guy, good advice, good parts and good prices.

[Josue]

Dang...that's a KILLER deal, NOT A TA!! Definately not something that crossed my mind, but I'll be sure to have my feelers up now!

The more I think about it, and the more good info I read in this thread, I don't know what's going to be more important come time...having a decently fast car, or keeping it as cheap as possible and under budget. I had a few turbo DSM's in the high 13's, and a Grand Prix GTP that ran 14.2 stock/13.80 modded, and those were all PLENTY fun to drive! haha Of COURSE you always want to go faster, but I've got to be smart about where and how I spend my money on this thing.

I think just the fact of converting it to a manual would be plenty of fun in itself, plus the loud exhaust and just the old car factor...might be enough to hold me over until I can afford the good stuff!

[Josh69]

Josh, you would likely be happy with the 350 and a stick, it'll still be a lot of fun to drive around town. A manual tranny makes a muscle car exponentially more fun. Just keep it simple. A performer or early iron intake, Qjet preferably, or street avenger type carb, small cam and headers and you'll have a solid driver. If you can find a running 455, just drop it in and be done with it for a grand. Then you have a 4.21 stroke and big torque for the street...and torque rules on the street. That's where the Pontiac shines. You have to spin the crap out of a SBC or LS without a blower or big stroker to start having a good time, and you're already breaking every speed limit in the country. With the big Pontiacs, you just punch it and the whole car jumps skyward...lots of giggle factor at sane speeds. My car is like driving a tilt-o-whirl even with stiff springs. It's just as fun for me to let everyone else drive it and get their reaction. It usually starts and ends with the same two words "Holy Crap".

I have a good set of .030 pistons if you need them for the 350. They are badger brand stock style replacements, 50 miles on them. $100 already on a set of stock '69 rods. Your crank and rods could be used in the 400 block if you go that route, but would need to be balanced with 400 pistons. You could use your 350 heads and have bigger valves put in with a proper valve job and use some BBC rocker studs to mount adjustable rockers. I have a set of PRW 1.52 roller rockers also, $115. So if you're building one either way, you can go cheap and easy on the 350, or cheap and easy on the 400 if you pony up for the block. You can use everything you have except pistons if you bore yours, or buy the 400. That would at least get you up and running. I wouldn't go any bigger than maybe 215/220 @ .050, .480 lift or so in the 350. You want to keep velocity up for torque. Your 350 heads would be good on either motor since I've heard they have smaller runners, good for low end. But pontiac heads can be had for a few hundred bucks already done. I'd hit craigslist and the forums and just start eyeballing your options. You can always add better heads down the road. That's what I did.

[OLDFLM]

Get the 400... add home ported (230cfm@28") #13 heads and Bullet 224/230 .485/.491 110LSA cam with Harland Sharp 1.65 roller rockers (I have these available if you're interested) and you're where you want to be... but you'll probably want a 750cfm carb/headers etc.

This combo ran mid-13s in my 71 which is much heavier than your car (3850lbs) in Drive! I've got a built TH350 and Hughes converter available too... all from the same combo. Tons of fun on the street but very driveable/reliable!

V/R,
Ty

[coreybrenner]

Not an ad, because I don't work with or for the guy, but I like to keep an eye on the Pontiac stuff, and I really like the 350 Pontiac... Bruce Fulper at Rock & Roll Engineering (google them... don't want to link it and run afoul of any rules or anything) has a 350 that puts out 500+ horses on 87 octane pump gas. That'd get you down the track in the 13s, I'd think. In email, the guy seems friendly enough, but his web site is a little ... overwhelming ... at times. :-)

[critter]

Do your homework on Fulper. Caveat Emptor.

[wmhjr]

You got that right. I would STRONGLY suggest checking out that vendor on the PY site. Also, call a few other guys who typically attend Pontiac Nationals in Norwalk. Beyond that, I see no reason to build a poncho 350 unless you have a very limited budget, have a 350 that only needs minor tweaking, and have conservative goals in mind. Building a Pontiac 350 places significant limitations on options and as a result costs can be pretty high as compared to other options.

[Josue]

Yea, my budget, for the motor work at least, will be as limited as I can make it. Again, I have NO idea how much any of this costs, so I don't want to sit here and put a price tag on how much I'm willing to pay for the work. $1,000? $1,500? $2,000? I DO know the sky's the limit though...lol

Unless I can find a decent deal on a complete 400 or something. But I'm very VERY weary on taking someones word on a motor that I can't hear. How do I know that "It only has 3000 miles on the new rebuild and it ran great last year when I pulled it out!" Hell, even if I could hear it run, I still wouldn't even be able to tell much about how "good" it sounds, unless it had some crazy rattle/grinding/knocking/ect. noises.

Here's an add on Craigslist that SOUNDS like a decent deal...so if I could find something like this, I may scratch the 350. There was also a guy on here selling a complete 400 for $1200, but he was in TX.


Here is a 69 Pontiac 400 WT code GTO engine B289 date code. The engine was rebuilt with # 15 heads and E068 date codes. Runs great and only has about 2000 miles on the rebuild. It was in a car that got wrecked after about 2000 miles was put on it. I bought it to put it in my Firebird but got the 69 - 350HO running. I cleaned up the block and primed and painted it using (high heat engine primer and paint) the correct color blue for 69. The timing cover and water pump is from the 68 pontiac (8 bolt) so I was going to put a 69 timing cover and pump (11bolt) on it that is included with the engine. So give me a yell through Craigslist if your interested in a killer engine for your old Pontiac GTO, FIREBIRD, LEMANS, CATALINA, VENTURA, OR WHATEVER.

He wants $900 firm for this motor.